I was looking around over at EM's website and noticed this book. I've seen it before but couldn't get a real handle on what it's like. So I'm wondering if Em or anyone else would be able to give me some ideas on what was useful from this book.

Em seems to have very well adjusted girls who are out following their dreams. Where on the other hand I have a teen girl which has real self esteem (bio father abandoned us before birth and has never been in the picture) and learning problems (ADD and tests show her ability to use logic is impaired) and I'm almost positive if left to her own devices would seek attention in negative ways. It seems to me it's time to start letting her go but at the same time I don't think I can trust her to use good judgement. Arggg! It probably sounds simple to you, but it's a real dilemma for me. Especially when she thinks I treat her like child. I acknowledge that I don't give her the freedom that many other teens have but is that really a good idea? Is it wrong to want to know where she is going, who she will be with, and when she will be home? I read a quote the other day, "Teenagers are people who act like babies when they are not treated as adults". Oh, how true! Now she's telling me that she won't be moving out when she's 18 like she's been telling me for years. OH NO! What have I gotten myself into? :)

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

Answers

Hey, Denise, I can't tell you how to raise your daughter (I don't even know how old she is!), but I would encourage you, and anyone else, to give their kids lots of positive support, in order to build self esteem. Perhaps trying too hard to guide her (which may translate to lack of confidence in her mind, and this to poor self image) is a problem. Kids need to feel enabled, and need to make their own mistakes.

Just some generic advice; use it if it applies. Good luck; I'm so glad I'm done with raising my kids, and so amazed they turned out to be such fine adults, as I never felt that I was doing that great a job of parenting. I was way too much into controlling their lives. (fortunately, they tell me I was the "greatest", for some reason. I guess my love for them must have been evident, even through the bossiness and short temper.

Oh, another thing: you should realize that everything you do, and everything she does, are NOT going to be perfect. We all make mistakes; when she errs, work with her, not against her.

Good luck, again!

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

When I was young, I had learning problems. My son's doctor wanted him tested for ADD. It turned out he had food allergies. I did the test with him so he wouldn't feel left out. Imagine my surprise when I also had a reaction to dairy. I was light headed, dizzy, had no concentration and couldn't talk to my husband to explain what was going on. The next day, I was nasty and even though I knew I was being nasty, I couldn't stop. When I was in school, I used to have Carnation Instant Breakfast (made with milk) and an ice cream sandwich for lunch....no wonder I had learning problems.

What I'm saying is, when my son's diet changed (No dairy, no pesticides, no preservatives or food coloring. Rotation of allergic foods and eating as natural as possible, with the additon of vitamins) his concentration and grades improved. He graduated to the gifted and talented classes. He started having friends.

I'm not saying this is what your daughter's problem is but it is something that is overlooked in this chemical world. AND Doctors don't believe. If you would like to look into this, there is a book called, Is This YOur Child? by Dr Doris Rapp that is great or e-mail me.

Sorry, I didn't read the book you were questioning but like to tell anyone about what happened to me and my son if it can at all help someone else. I go up to strangers that have children with red cheeks and say that my son used to have red cheeks and it was a food allergy. I always wish someone had come up to me and saved us years of problems.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

Hi Denise! As you know, I'm a big fan of The Teenage Liberation Handbook. I have lost count of how many copies we have donated to libraries and reading rooms cus I think the info is so very important.

The book's focus is on taking teenagers through the steps necessary to quit school, or as Grace Llewellyn puts it, to rise out of school! It covers pretty much everything in that realm, and is written to the teenagers themselves. She speaks about issues like what one does when one has parents either disinterested or hostile to the idea of self- schooling, knowing that ideally the parents would be reading the book too, but knowing full well this often isnt the case. In other words, she trusts the young people to have the courage, strength and intelligence to begin to take control of their own destinies. Its directed at teens, but certainly has meaning for kids younger, especially if they're precocious.

The reason that I think the book is required reading for everyone, is because of the way it can open one's mind about the whole concept of compulsory mass education. What school really does to the child, and how it steals their childhood. How it affects them for the rest of their lives. The way this book opens eyes, IMO, is second only to the way Daniel Quinn does the same in "MY ISHMAEL." I think its pretty much impossible to ever look at childhood, schooling,learning, and even parenting the same way again.

My first reaction to what you have said above is about this:

".....I have a teen girl which has real self esteem... problems(bio father abandoned us before birth and has never been in the picture)."

This tells me that you think there is a connection between the two, and I would tend to ask why? (I know this is all very complicated, and you didnt ask me to be your shrink, but its a bad habit I acquired years ago!) Its interesting to me that you use the word "abandoned." It's certainly easy to understand that this is precisely how you felt when it happened, but is it possible that there was a lot of emphasis placed on that hurt, that may have encouraged your daughter to feel 'abandoned.'? I'm sure you've reassured her numerous times that it had nothing to do with her as an individual, but sometimes our kids kinda pick up and run with our strong hurts almost by osmosis.

Now I may be steppin way outa line here, so just hit me upside the head if I am! And the last thing I want you to acquire from any conversation with me is to FEEL BAD. I'm a big believer in everything happenin just as it should, so there is never any BLAME involved. Its never too late to heal old wounds.

Why do you think she would make bad decisions? Has she shown frequent poor judgement so that you have reason to not trust her?

The ADD thing, and the diagnosis about logic being impaired........you know what, Denise........I dont know your kid of course, but those kinds of things I usually toss out the window! Labels like that are generally garbage utilized for the benefit of administrators and number crunchers. My Lotus was diagnosed all kinds of crap.......she's a genius, according to the IQ tests anywho, but like most 'geniuses', she cannot learn anything in a way that is acceptable by professional teachers. So my genius ends up lookin like a retard! .....HUH? :) Don't listen to em!! Do YOU think she is logic impaired? Maybe she's just a ditz like my Lotus! Lotus now proudly wears this title like a badge of giftedness! Tell us something about her please.

"It probably sounds simple to you, but it's a real dilemma for me."

No, it doesnt sound simple to me, dear; parenting is definitely the hardest job in the world. Just cuz I have been unbelievably blessed doesnt mean I cant relate to those who have had lots of problems, and most folks have. I think alot of my advantage was that I had my kids late, when I was really ready to be a parent; started in my mid-30s when I was a hundred times wiser than I was in my 20's, and because I didnt send em to school. And I just have two incredibly wonderful people for daughters. I do have stuff to share, but please dont for one single minute feel badly about anything you have done as a parent. It's all good!!

"Is it wrong to want to know where she is going, who she will be with, and when she will be home?"

No, it is not. I have always known these things each time my girls leave the house. Course they have always voluntered this info, never seemed to resent it, in fact always WANT me to know this stuff. I'm trying to think as I write this what I would do or feel if they WERE to resent it..........hmmmmmm.........I think if they did that they would be feeling that I didnt trust them, that I would be expecting them to do something I wouldnt approve of.........that they would think I didnt think them capable of making good decisions for their lives. I've always emphasized to them the importance of not allowing oneself to get in a position where they are forced to make a decision they are not yet ready for. Peer pressure is too strong a deterrent to common sense, and avoiding those kinds of situations, anticipating them, is an important part of growing up. We talk about all this stuff, and I do a lot of listening.

I think the jist of it is that my kids dont feel there is anything here to rebel AGAINST. They always feel that I am on their side, cuz I have instilled in them how perfect they are, always with the proviso that their perfection is equal to everyone else's.

Hope this helps more than hinders!

Hugs........

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

Oooops...you surely mean she ends up looking as if she is retarded and not as "a retard", don't you EM - hope so.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

Sorry Terry, you know I mean no offense. I'm just a natural smartass and dont mind a bit when folks call me names......which they often do, trust me :), but I need to be more mindful of my mouth.

Blessings,

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Oh boy there is so much to say. I appreciate your responses. EM, I say that she has these problems because she has some ways about her that make we worry to no end. The psychologist we went to when she was 11 (she is almost 17 now) said that the logic and abandonment were problems for her. I think school was very damaging to her. Since she didn't learn like most kids she became a nuisance to the teachers. I started homeschooling her in 6th grade. I have not had much success in teaching her either. We are at an impasse at the moment with her correspondence course because she is unable to read text and then answer the questions. This is all she has to do to pass the course. The test is given ahead of time and then you go to a website and answer the questions you already have answered. It seems like a give me situation. But for whatever reason she says she can't do it. How can I help her other than to show her where the answers are? That basically means that I would have to do all this reading and do the course.

She CANNOT do math. This is where the logic problem becomes very apparent. This is very alarming to me. When she was tested in this area at the Psych. when presssured about math she reverted to baby talk and crying at age 11. I have already done a basic math course and a consumer math course for her. She really CANNOT seem to understand what to do. It has to do with logic and sequencing. This shows up in everyday life too. If given any task which isn't something she has done routinely she cannot logically figure out how to begin and put it into steps. Almost everything is overwhelming for her. Fortunately she does have a receptionist job at a cousin's hair salon. But it has taken some time for her to perform the job properly. One of the things she had to do was pull tanning client cards for 4 different beds and put them in order according to appointment times in one stack. That was tear jerker for her. I was afraid they were going to fire her for awhile. She uses the cash register but that makes the change for her.

It's these kinds of things which make we very concerned about whether she can make good decisions. The obvious does not seem very obvious to her. If she learns a concept but then has to apply the same concept in a different context, she doesn't see that it's the same thing but a different situation. She also tends toward being very emotional periodically having screaming and crying fits over being disciplined or being overwhelmed. There also seems to be a lot of anxiety in her. The psych. said at 11 she was borderline depressed with anxiety.

This is why I am not confident in how she will be away from me. It's like I can talk till I am blue in the face and think she understands but the proof is when she faces whatever we are talking about as to whether she really understands. She doesn't mean to blunder. It's not always rebellion. This is very frustrating for her. She really thinks she is stupid. I'm afraid that if someone (specifically boys) come along and make her feel good about herself, they will be able to talk her into just about anything. If given enough opportunities she does finally get whatever it is she has to learn. But what if it takes her 10 times of being used and one of those times produces a baby?

I have 3 younger children (8, 6, & 4) and I homeschool them. We have had much better success. I am actually quite happy with their progress. They seem to learn easily and can pick up chores and such easily. I'm not so much making a comparison as to demonstrate I do know that she is definitely different. I do believe there is something to her diagnosis when she was 11. I know that eventually she will eventually get the hang of life, but what about in the meantime. It really scares me. I want to liberate her and let her make her own mistakes but I am afraid she may make really big mistakes which will affect her whole life.

Any insight?

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Hey, that's alright EM, even one of my own son uses that word occasionally without thinking - just something he has heard others say for so long that it even slips out of his mouth from time to time. Years ago I even used it myself :-).

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Hmmm...that spelling troll is after my posts again :->. Let me make that one all right - not alright.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Wow, Denise, you got me bawlin over my keyboard..........I can feel your frustration and fear......... big hugs to you........

The first thing that jumps to mind is this: has your daughter been thoroughly tested for allergies? Does she have periods (hours/days/weeks) where she is obviously more lucid than others? Has her behaviour changed over the years....gotten worse or better?

And here's one for ya to answer from your gut: you say she thinks she's stupid..........what do YOU think?

Love ya,

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Denise, this sounds like it's way too complicated for those of us who don't know you and your daughter to make any good recommendations. I think maybe you should confer with the best counselors you can find, and others whom you trust who know your situation first hand. Sounds like a real challenge! Best wishes, and I repeat: treat her with love and respect. Do the best you can, and realize that there is no perfect solution to this or any other personal situation.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2002

Thanks for the support guys! I didn't stop in yesterday because I was occupied with my in laws who came in to visit for the weekend. I did start to think that maybe this discussion might not be appropriate for this board. It's not very intellectual. So if this came across as too personal, I apologize. I was having a particularly difficult day with her the day I posted. I would not give my permission for my daughter to go out with a 23 yr old male customer from the salon who asked her out.

I don't think she is stupid. I think she has a different way of thinking than most people and she is a little naive and trusting. But it's one of those things where she doesn't believe it no matter how much you tell her otherwise. And at this point I don't feel extremely confident in letting her loose, so it may seem as though I treat her as a child or as stupid, or that I don't trust her. I firmly believe she wants to make good decisions. I just don't know if she can. I'm coming from a standpoint of fear. But at the same time she has to start having grown up experiences, so she can learn and be on her own. I really do want to let her go when the time comes.But on the other hand I do think that she needs more supervision and protection than most kids her age. It's hard to know what to do.

As far as the allergies there doesn't seem to be any. We had her tested for that too. The professionals just haven't been much help.

-- Anonymous, July 13, 2002

Denise please don't apologize. I'm honored that you trust us enough to vent your frustrations with us. Unfortunatley my child-rearing knowledge would fit into a thimble with room to spare so I don't have anything meaningful to contribute. All I can do is keep you and your daughter in my prayers. :)

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2002

Denise, I wouldn't worry about starting a thread that didn't have an "intellectual" topic! Sheesh, if they had to be intellectual, we wouldn't have many threads here! :-D

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2002

This thread is just as 'intellectual' anything else on the forum, I think? And we were doin just fine. I agree with Sherri that its wonderful you feel safe enough here to share this kind of stuff. That's why we are here, after all, IMO. Say whatever you like!

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2002