The NY Times published this article yesterday. The New York Times!! It's almost too good to be true!! Finally, finally, a respected publication dares to tell the truth! (I have been doing little silly dances here; you'll hafta excuse me but this is excitin stuff for me..........its vindication time!!) They can only fool the public for so long............the emperor has no clothes! ...giggle........

The article is LONG, and the Times requires you to register to read, and since some people are loathe to do that, I have copied it onto our webspace........here's the link (hopefully) :)

WHAT IF ITS ALL A BIG FAT LIE?"

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Answers

That was very interesting,EM. Up until about a few years ago I have constantly struggled with eating "right". I ate lowfat and very little meat for years. it took a lot of discip-line. And I WAS always hungry. I was also moody. I finally came to the conclusion that I would eat what I wanted and accept any weight gain that occurred. Well I did gain some but I felt much better. According to this article I probably eat way too many carbs. Maybe I'll look into this and see how it works. I refuse to live hungry again!

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Ok, I've been looking into it and was wondering how to cook this way. If anyone is interested, I found an extensive archive of low carb recipes at www.camacdonald.com/lc/index.html There are a lot of good ideas at this site. Many of the recipes are quick and easy.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Healthy nutrition for humans is a big variable, what works for some folks will just about kill, or at the very least, make very, very miserable symptoms/conditions for others! Feeding and caring for several different "hard-keeping" horses, dogs, and cats over 30 years has taught me volumes unlearnable any other way.

I do know from experience that one simple "food truth" remains constant, if you eat more than you use, you be too fat for your bones, joints and tendons and ligaments to support your too heavy body without some type of degenerative disease process making you miserable with otherwise avoidable pain and suffering. Gravity happens, and it gets worse as you get older.

My joint pain is 100% improved since I lost 30 pounds a few years ago, I wasn't considered fat before I lost the weight, I lost it to avoid having to go on medication for my high blood pressure. The joint pain improvement was an unexpected, but very welcome, benefit. And the weight loss got my BP down to 120/70 ranges, that and avoiding all "bad fats", those hydrogenated devils !!!

I eat what I want mostly, even have ice cream 4 or 5 times a week ( a half cup serving), the really good stuff like Ben and Jerry's too, none of that low fat stuff masquerading as ice cream for me! Now, I don't eat refined or white flour forms of ANYTHING, if it ain't whole grain, it's a no-go, and white potatoes are in the same category as white flour, potatoes means sweet potatoes or yams, which cook up nicely in the microwave just like white potatoes, except they actually have some taste to them! And I even eat meat on rare occasions, although red meats make my joints hurt like hell. My grandfather had really awful gout, so I suspect the meat-pain connection is a genetic defect or food allergy thing.

My most important "secret" to weight management is working my ass off, literally. Push mowing the parts of our hilly yard that the riding mower can't navigate takes a minimum of 5 hours, weed-eating where the push mower can't go, another 3 to 4 hours. An hour of garden work (watering, weeding, etc.), chores for the horses, dogs, cats and chickens, another 3 hours of lugging feed sacks, water, hay, every day, then the ordinary household washing, cleaning, cooking, and so on, every day. When it isn't "mowing season", a minimum of a two mile hilly hike with the four dogs, rain, snow or sleet, every day.

So, basically I can eat like a hog and stay thin at age 43, but I also can lift 2/3 my body weight over my head and carry it a hundred yards or so. Yep, alot of folks can carry a hundred pound sack of grain on their shoulders too, but how many weigh 135 pounds?

Working hard, or being very physically fit, as well as a common sense approach to diet, realizing and becoming sensitive to what foods make you feel better, and what foods make you hurt, or give you a headache, or make you jittery and nervous, is the "secret" to a healthy lifestyle and chasing that damned expensive doctor away!

I found the article very interesting, it seems that the medical establishment still does not realize that a "one size fits all" approach to diet does not work. Humans require different diets for different occupations, body types, genetic problems, inherited sensitivities, and even for different life stages, one plan does not "fit" all of us!

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

EM has a good cookbook for sale on her website too... ;-)

I've been in meetings all day today so I only had time to skim the article. Did they mention anything about grassfed beef vs the conventional feedlot beef?

EM, I sure wish you lived closer so I could pick your brain about all this stuff! :)

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Ditto what Sherri said about the cookbook. I've used several recipes from it and also find the sidebar reading fascinating!

I've only just had time to skim this article, but I sure like what I've seen. I will be rereading it and saving it!! BTW...has anyone seen the latest issue of Time magazine and the article about vegetarianism? It seems kinda anti-beef!! I have to read that one more thoroughly, also.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

EM, has a website? Where is it?

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

Denise...the web site is www.wisespirit.com. The bookstore is full of wonderfully informatve books and the cookbook is called "Nourishing Traditions".

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

This is a tad bit off topic, but did you all hear about the 14 year old girl in North Dakota who was diagnosed with breast cancer? I've felt for some time that there's some connection between the decreasing age of puberty in children and the amounts of hormones used in commercial beef. I wonder if this is just another symptom of the same problem? :(

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

You know what? I'll tell ya what..I have always had a weight problem since childhood when I got hooked on Oreos (grade 4..115 pounds). I have tried diet after diet including just plain old "sensible' eating. Guess what... I'm still fat (over 190 pounds and only 5 ft 1/2 inch tall medium frame). The only diet that produced results for me reliably was the high protein kind of diet like Atkins but it was so frowned upon that I quit and guess what..Weight sky rocketted. My brother in law can only keep his weight down with the air force high pro diet and my sis in law that battles her weight via weight watchers and is basically starving herself has only been able to use that diet lately. She has limited mobility due to extensive back injuries and osteo arthritis so the Weight Watcher plan had her almost straving (the poor dear would cry because she was so hungry and this woman is no wimp to live with the pain she faces day in and day out for the last 14 years) with no weight loss results at all. She is only not hungry constantly on this type of diet and her weight stays in check which in turn helps her move with less pain. EM, thank you good woman for linking this article. I knew there was a reason I raised two pigs this year. I'm gonna get thin..finally!!! and without the guilt of the finger shakin' low fatters glaring at me from my brainwashed mind (the mind of a main stream weight loss failure). I emailed it to mu SIL so she can read it too. Of to cook some bacon now! PS..my son Ben is quite carnivorous..a real struggle to get him to touch veggies although he loves pasta and bread. He's not a fat kid at all..Cammie on the other hand eats more veggies and carbs than meats..almost opposite and is a much chunkier monkey than his brother. Coincidence? I think not!

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

EM,

I went to your website - very nice. You have a lot of my favorite books there and some that I haven't read yet. So...hope to order a couple of them later.

-- Anonymous, July 10, 2002

Alsion,

The low carbohydrate way of eating works great! My major weight problem began while we were eating as vegetarians for a while. All the good whole grains - brown rice, whole wheat bread, lots of the good grain pastas, legumes - but it was just too high on the carb side for me and I continued to gain, no matter what.

The greatest benefit for me has been that my blood presure is now back in normal range and so is my blood sugar, even though I still have a ways to go on losing more weight. It was still difficult for me to always eat this way as I would crave sweets until....about one month ago. I was concerned about always being so very tired - I mean where I could only function for about three hours an optimal level and then the day just kept going downhill. This had been going on for a couple of years and getting worse. I decided I would try sublimal B- complex and found a reasonably priced brand. A week later and I was moving at a fast pace from the time my feet hit the ground in the morning, and still am and LOVING it. I don't believe I have ever felt this good. The strangest thing though, about three days after beginning the vitamins I lost all cravings for sweets and still have no cravings. Now I can stick with the low carb diet with no problem and am averaging a two pound a week weight loss. Does anyone understand the connection between the B vitamins and the loss of cravings for sweets? I still haven't been able to find out the "why" of it.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Thank you for your kind words, Terry! And thanks gang for the free advertising!

The only nutrient I'm familiar with off the top of my head that controls sugar cravings is glutamine, but that's not a B vitamin, its an amino acid. Maybe your supplement has some glutamine in it? If not, maybe you could list its ingredients?

One issue that wasnt discussed (besides the difference between grain and grass fed meat) is how carbohydrates affect one's moods. Many people who were dependent on anti-depressant have been able to throw them out when they got off the carb addiction cycle. Carbohydrates are extremely addictive, and because of the blood sugar, beta- endorphin and seratonin yo-yoing they cause, depression is actually the norm in carb addicts.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

No, there's no glutamine in this supplement. Besides the Vit. C, Riboflavin, Niacin, B-6, B-12 and Patothenic Acid is contains purified water, Sorbitol, Glycerin, Citric Acid, Sodium Benzoate and natural cherry flavor.

Whatever the connection may be, it's wonderful because I don't even think of sweets anymore. You know that feeling you have after you have eaten a meal and are full? No food is appealing at that moment. Well, that's how I feel all the time now, about sweets, they just don't "sound good" :-). I'm still looking into all that B vitamins do and hoping to find the answer. It had the same effect on my older son too - he gave pop up all at once and says he is never tempted at work to buy anything from the vending machines anymore.

We might actually become a healthy family here :-> (I've actually been reading and studying for years now but we seem to have had set backs at times). A friend has made raw milk available to us and I make butter and soft cheeses from that, along with being able to enjoy drinking milk again. We have our own chickens for eggs and meat along with a vegetable garden and raise a lot of our own meat, except beef, but will be ordering pasteured beef from a family near us, when it is ready in January.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

I may have to look at all of this a bit more seriously as well. I know that I'm a carbohydrate addict, some of the foods I crave are pretty disgusting. I did have myself to a point where I was happy with my body image, I'll never be a fashion model but I was OK with being a bit "fluffy". I don't own a scale but I did have an idea in my head of how much I weighed. Well, this week I stepped on a scale and discovered that my idea was about 25 lbs less than reality. :( I plugged the numbers into a BMI calculator. Anything >24 is considered obese, I came out as a 30! Yipes!

Terry, thanks again for the link you sent me. That farm is about 60 miles west of my house so it's not too bad. I missed the cut-off for pastured poultry for this year but I'm on their mailing list for next year. They do pork too but unfortunately no beef.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

You know, I was thinking about carbohydrate addiction for about a month before EM posted this. Finally found my carbohydrate addiction diet book (but haven't read it again, yet). Then EM posted this, now a friend on another board asked about low-carbohydrate diets, because two relatives told her they were on it. It must be some "vibe" in the air.

Terry, that is interesting about the Vitamin B complex. I wonder if brand has anything to do with it . . .

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

That's great, Terry, that this supplement has been such a help to you! Maybe your're family is predisposed to B vitamin shortages or somesuch. Sometimes when we are deficient in some nutrient, we develop strange cravings, sort of the body searching to fullfill its needs, only we seem to mistintrepret it along the way somehow. Sugar also eats up your B vitamins, so now that you're eating less sugar you'll probably be metabolizing those vitamins better too.

-- Anonymous, July 12, 2002

I bought the Atkins book on Friday and then went grocery shopping. I started eating the Atkins way FRiday night and though I am not following the sampled induction diet menu, I have lost a pound (weighed in yesterday morning and this morning and was down about a pound). I've been wading through the book, skipping the techie parts I don't get and truly don't much give a darn about, and reading that which makes sense and I must say its been an eye openner. As a carb addict I was constantly hungry, even after a huge meal. And even though I was watching fat intake I wouldn't lose weight unless I was truly restrictive about everything. Thats hard and a hungry way to live. Of course I fall off every wagon I climb onto regarding my weight so I am hoping that I don't fall off this one. I am on Paxil so that may be a hindrance in taking off the pounds. My SIL and I are doing this together and email each other encouragement and stuff. Wish us luck.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2002

EM,

Yes, that is what I have been thinking too. Craving sugar the way we did is NOT normal so once our bodies started receiving the amount of B vitamins they needed, our bodies became "normal", so to speak, and the cravings stopped.

-- Anonymous, July 14, 2002

EM, you should feel vindicated. I can remember having an intense discussion with you last year on Countryside when I was going through my last vegetarian phase, but I have seen the light. Theoretically I like the idea of being vegetarian, but when paying attention to my body I noticed that all was not well when I didn't eat animal protein. And then I discovered the health benefits of grassfed beef, I knew about free range chickens and their egges and it only made sense for pork to be grassfed and free range.

We buy Laura's Lean locally at Albertson's of all places and the difference in taste is amazing, have to get chicken and pork from Whole Food, but have been looking for a local source.

I read the article, maybe it will keep some people from going vegetarian.

Namaste, Judy

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2002

I was watching Believe it or Not last night and they had a man on there who eats his meat only after it has rotted. Some of it he let rot for a year or more but didn't eat any unless it was at least a couple of months old. He kept some of it in jars in the refrigerator and opened the jars every few days to replenish the oxygen supply. He's a nutritionist! Been doing this for over ten years. Go figure. I'd like to see it again, well, no I wouldn't, but I don't remember if he cooked it or not. I think not. Now, I don't care what the pros and cons of the veggie diet are but if that's the way I had to eat my meat, I'm afraid the veggie diet would win hands down. And I was reading of the urine cure for cancer last night. Again, I'm not sure that I wouldn't have to let the cancer win!

Hey, Judy. Good to see you playing with us again.

Wildman, (hoping you're not eating right now)

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2002

I wanted to post this earlier, but the board was down! Also from the NY Times. **********************

July 13, 2002 A Diet Rich in Partial Truths By DEAN ORNISH

SAUSALITO, Calif. — In Woody Allen's movie "Sleeper," a man wakes up 200 years in the future to find that science has proved deep-fried foods to be healthy. Is the future here already?

By now, many Americans are thoroughly exasperated by the seemingly contradictory information in the press about what a sound diet is. Lately, I hear many people say, "If the doctors can't make up their minds, I'll eat whatever I want and quit worrying."

That would be unfortunate. Science can help people distinguish what sounds good from what's real. Nowhere are the claims more conflicting than in the area of diet and nutrition. Unfortunately, this is an area where misinformation can make a huge difference to an individual's health and well-being.

The high-protein diet (which is almost always high in fat), for example, has become very popular; just about everyone knows someone who has lost weight on this kind of diet. Given the American epidemic of obesity, isn't that a good thing?

Not necessarily. You can lose weight with fen-phen, too, but that doesn't mean it's good for you. When you go on a high-protein, high- fat diet, you may temporarily lose weight — but you may also mortgage your health in the process. The only peer-reviewed study of the effects of a high-protein diet on heart function found that blood flow to the heart actually worsened and heart disease became more severe.

But high-protein diets help people lose weight because they are based partially on science, which is what makes them seductive. The high- protein advocates are right when they say that people in the United States eat too many simple carbohydrates like sugar, white flour and white rice. These foods are absorbed quickly, causing blood sugar to spike, which in turn provokes an insulin response that accelerates the conversion of calories to fat. There is a clear benefit to reducing the intake of simple carbohydrates, especially to people who are sensitive to them.

So the diagnosis is correct: we are eating too many simple carbohydrates. But the cure is wrong. The solution is not to go from simple carbohydrates to pork rinds and bacon, but from simple carbohydrates to whole foods with complex carbohydrates like whole wheat, brown rice, and fruits, vegetables, grains and legumes in their natural forms.

These foods are naturally high in fiber, which slows their absorption, preventing a rapid rise in blood sugar. Fiber also fills you up before you eat too many calories, whereas you can eat large amounts of sugar without feeling full. Best of all, these foods contain at least 1,000 substances that have anti-cancer, anti-heart disease and anti-aging properties.

For the past 25 years, my colleagues and I have conducted a series of randomized studies demonstrating that this whole-foods diet can reverse the progression of even severe heart disease in most people. These results have been published in the leading peer-reviewed medical journals. On average, our patients lost 24 pounds and kept more than half of that off for at least five years.

We demonstrated in hospitals throughout the country (including places where we were told that gravy is a beverage) that most heart patients were able to safely avoid bypass surgery or angioplasty by following this diet combined with moderate exercise, stress management techniques and participation in support groups. Medicare is now paying for 1,800 patients to go on this diet. Recently we found that this program may stop or reverse the progression of early prostate cancer as well. The more closely people followed the diet, the more their heart disease reversed and the lower their prostate-specific antigen, a marker for prostate cancer, became.

It's not that fats are bad; we just eat too much of them. Fish oil and flaxseed oil are very good for you because they provide the kind of fatty acids that can substantially reduce the incidence of sudden cardiac death and may help prevent some forms of cancer, but you only need a few grams a day. And because fat has more calories per gram than protein and carbohydrates, when you eat less fat, you consume fewer calories without having to eat less food.

Science can help us sort out conflicting claims. Researchers now are studying the effects of high-protein diets. It would be wise to wait for these results rather than discouraging people from making dietary changes that have been medically proved to be so beneficial.

Dean Ornish is president of the Preventive Medicine Research Institute and a clinical professor of medicine at the University of California, San Francisco. He is the author of "Eat More, Weigh Less.''

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2002

And then today, searching for the above article, I also found all this rebuttal:

July 17, 2002 The Myth of the Low-Fat Diet o the Editor:

Dean Ornish's studies ("A Diet Rich in Partial Truths," Op-Ed, July 13), while demonstrating the importance of lifestyle, do not prove that low-fat diets reduce obesity or risk for any other disease. Health improvements on the Ornish plan may have been caused by a variety of factors unrelated to total dietary fat.

The "gold standard" for scientific truth in medicine is the randomized-controlled trial. According to a recent analysis of such trials by the Cochrane Review, subjects treated with low-fat diets tended to lose less weight than those on higher-fat diets.

Most probably, humans can do quite well on diets varying widely in the ratio of fat to carbohydrate, so long as adequate attention is given to the quality of foods consumed.

A primary emphasis on reducing dietary fat may have actually contributed to the dramatic increase in rates of obesity, diabetes and certain heart disease risk factors observed over the last two decades in the United States. DAVID S. LUDWIG, M.D. Boston, July 13, 2002 The writer is director of the obesity program, Children's Hospital, and an assistant professor of pediatrics, Harvard Medical School. • To the Editor:

Dean Ornish (Op-Ed, July 13) should own up to the influential role that he has played in getting the American diet out of whack. His classic book, "Eat More, Weigh Less," puts no limits on the amount of carbohydrates one can eat as long as fat is avoided.

On his diet I gained 30 pounds, and my triglycerides shot up to 300. D. J. DOOLING Fair Haven, N.J., July 13, 2002 • To the Editor:

In delivering the truth about simple and complex carbohydrates, Dean Ornish omitted some facts about protein diets ("A Diet Rich in Partial Truths," Op-Ed, July 13). The most famous protein diet, the Atkins diet, has never recommended protein only. MARIA LITTLE Seattle, July 13, 2002 • To the Editor:

Government recommendations and research on diet and nutrition are important, but not the sources from which to expect a cure for America's obesity epidemic ("Challenging the Accepted Wisdom," editorial, July 14).

A combination of dietary common sense and some self-discipline will reverse the trend. In most cases, moderate portions of a balanced diet, combined with daily exercise, is a simple, straightforward approach to maintaining a healthy weight.

The challenge is to integrate this approach into a daily living routine that factors in family and work responsibilities.

We don't need more reports or research to know that frequent trips to the fast-food restaurant and a sedentary lifestyle, however busy we are, will contribute to excessive weight gain. DAVID MURPHY New York, July 15, 2002 • To the Editor:

Saying the federal government has not tackled the obesity epidemic "with the vigor applied to other scourges like smoking" is an understatement (editorial, July 14).

If the government seriously wanted to fight obesity, it would take these steps:

¶Increase financing for the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to $60 million to strengthen national programs and double the number of states financed for nutrition, physical activity and obesity programs.

¶Promote physical activity to children by restoring financing for C.D.C.'s Youth Media Campaign, which the president plans to terminate in 2003.

¶Require chain restaurants to list calories along with prices on their menus; that would encourage downsizing instead of supersizing.

¶Ban junk-food ads on children's TV, and remove junk foods from schools.

Given obesity rates in adults and kids, we cannot afford to postpone action. MARGO G. WOOTAN Dir. of Nutrition Policy, Center for Science in the Public Interest Washington, July 15, 2002

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2002

Yeah I read the Ornish bit in the NYT too; I was expecting to hear from him right away. I have lost count of the number of people I've talked to who have failed to lose weight or improve their lab numbers on his program. One of the worst things about it is that it is impossible for the majority of mortals to stick to it, cuz its boring and tasteless and unsatisfying, so folks cheat or quit, and then, worst of all, they feel guilty. Same deal with his predecessor Nathan Pritikin's program. That is not to say that there werent individuals who succeeded in improving their lab numbers on this program, but at what cost? And they were people of strong resolve, and there is no evidence that I am aware of that their overall health or life expectancy is any better. I do know that overall, people who follow very low fat diets have higher rates of cancer.

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2002

Oh Joy, the down sizing of portions in the last article certainly caught my eye. Since I'm from the South, I'm use to not seeing the plate when I order a Chicken Fried Steak, but it was a real shock when I went to New Jersey. I stopped in a diner and ordered chicken breast, which came with rice, beans, salad and pie. When the waiter brought the salad, it was on a dinner plate! When he brought the chicken, there were three chicken breast on the plate. I thought I was suppose to pick one! He assured me that that was my order and when he asked if he could bring me anything else, I told him that the only other thing that I was going to need was a doggie bag. The rice came in a large soup bowl as did the beans. Then there was the bread. It looked like a loaf! I didn't even touch the pie! I thought I had just happened upon the right place to eat because for the price of one meal, I had two and it was cheap. When my wife joined me, we went to another diner and they actually had a sign on the wall so you could see it as you came in the door. It stated that their portions were so large that you might want to consider sharing. They weren't lying and we still ended up with a doggie bag. And no dog. Now, I have no idea why all of those people up there don't have to drive one ton trucks to carry their butts around but they don't seem to have a weight problem. Well, not anymore than the rest of the country! I didn't check with the hospitals so maybe they're dying off like flies from heart disease and clogged arteries. But, if things in the world keep going like they're going we won't have to worry about diets. Most people will be killed off by a family member, die in a car crash, be killed by a mugger or drive by shooting or some other unnatural cause and the results of our "healthy" diet will never be known. And those that finally die healthy, was it because of their diet, religion, genetics, lifestyle, because they had a pet or what? Like Joy's two post pointed out, no matter which side of the fence you're on, there's always evidence, just as convincing, for or against those on the other side. I think we tend to put more credence in the one that tends to support our own beliefs because we have nothing else to go on. If the scientist can't agree on what's healthy and what's not, where does that leave us? This isn't for or against meat or vegetables, just my musings. Long winded aren't I?

Wildman, (taking a breath)

-- Anonymous, July 18, 2002

I agree Wildman..we will probably never know. Everyone in the nutrition world has a theory whether its vegan, low fat, high fiber, low carb...gosh there's just noway to know who's right, eh? But I'm down 5 pounds on Atkins!!!! WOOOOHOOO!!

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2002

Yeah Jack, you're right, however, after I saw those feed lots pretty much up close and smelly like you wouldn't believe, I knew I would never want to eat meat from a poor animal that had lived it's life that way. Just glad that I had already been introduced to grass fed, free range beef, chickens and pigs. And I was such a diehard about being vegetarian, but I was wrong and I admit it.

I go out to brunch with some women friends from time to time and one friend insists on getting liver with her eggs and I tried to tell her, nicely, that what she was eating is so awful, but she didn't want to hear it and continues to eat that crap, the beef in this restaurant would definitely not come from grass fed beef. I have gotten to the point where I eat before I go so that I won't be hungry enough to eat out.

So Jack, did you/are you going to San Antonio?

Namaste, Judy

-- Anonymous, July 19, 2002

Judy, I don't know how I missed your question! Sorry. No, I didn't go to SA and I'm not going to be going. And... I'm glad! Going to SA in July would be tough with all the heat and humidity. Hey, it'd be like going to visit you, wouldn't it? Just heard on the news that you've got that West Nile virus right across the street from you. Sandy heard the name of the city that they were reporting on and asked if that wasn't where you lived. Don't catch it, I hear it's not nice.

Wildman, (staying air conditoned)

-- Anonymous, August 02, 2002