I've been checking this cam out on a regular basis. www.wolf.org If you scroll down the right side of the page you'll find the wolf cam link. This is the site for the International Wolf Center in Ely, Minnesota. EM, have you ever been there or heard anything about it? I feel sad to know these wolves are in an enclosure (5 wolves in 1 1/4 acres) but I sure do like to catch a glimpse of them from time to time. Early in the morning has been the luckiest time for me to see them. Did you know that wolves in the US are being reclassified from endangered to threatened soon. This definitely creates a problem for the wolves due to pressure from special interest groups who would like to eradicate them. There is a petition at www.defenders.org to attempt to persuade the powers that be that the wolves still need protection. I understand that Idaho legislature would like to eradicate the wolves. I can understand that they don't want to lose their livestock but the incidence is so low. Also one of the things which helped the reintoduction of wolves was the fund that Defenders of Wildlife set up to reimburse any ranchers who lost any livestock to the wolves. So far the wolves have done well(sticking with elk and such for food) and any that were close enough to threaten livestock were recaptured and relocated.

I hope the wolf can remain a part of the scheme of things where they have been reintroduced. They are such beautiful and intelligent animals. They have made the elk herds healthier by hunting the sick, weak, and old. And they have been decreasing the coyote population back to where it should be not to mention the great scraps they leave for the scavengers of their area.

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2002

Answers

Wolves have been re-introduced to Wisconsin. Quite successfully. Now the hunters are petitioning to have a hunting season for wolves. Urgh! >:-{ They want to shoot mourning doves too -- which have NEVER been shown to do ANY damage to anything man-made, not even crop damage. Actually, the mourning dove season was opened. What is this kill, kill, kill mentality? We used to have passenger pigeons and Carolina parakeets too . . . . all gone! I'd love to see a Carolina parakeet!

Denise, I'm not sure, but I think the wolves in the enclosure cannot be released to the wild for some reason. I think maybe they were raised with humans and don't fear them enough. I can't remember what the story was though.

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2002

Yes, Denise, we have been up there. I'll check out the website; you can most likely see more action online than actually visiting Ely.

I rather doubt that the wolves in this enclosure are stressed to any degree close to that which they would be in the wild. Animals are pretty adaptable, and my understanding is most of em in Ely were bred and born in captivity, so that is what they are used to anyway. Those of us who keep birds in cages know that although they may have natural reflexes to fly free if given the chance, they seem to be perfectly content in the lifestyle we have devised for them. I guess since MN has so many wolves now, the fact that a few are penned up for the purpose of study and probably long-term benefit to their species is fine with me.

The issues connected with farmers/ranchers vs wolf-lovers is something I have been following for years. I used to subscribe to some western ranchers' mags, and I got quite an earful on the subject. Fascinating, really, and there really IS at least two sides to it. It's impossible to know the whole story judging only by listening to ivory-tower, city-dwelling environmentalist rhetoric,at least that is what I garnered from it.

But yeah, wolves are way cool, that's for sure!

-- Anonymous, July 07, 2002

Yes, the wolves at Ely and the wolves at Wolf Park in Indiana were all raised with humans from about 2-3 wks. of age. There are a lot of good articles at the wolf park site. We may be going to Wolf Park in a few weeks for an overnight kids seminar. It's about 3 hrs away and I got permission to volunteer so I can participate too.

I know the animals are used to this but I feel this way about the animals at zoos also. At the same time I enjoy being able to see them.

Hey EM, what do you find interesting about the other side of the rancher vs. wolf debate? What do you think that we are not getting to hear about their side of it? I've often wondered why they are so vehemently opposed. I wouldn't want to lose livestock either but if the problems are being managed and they are being reimbursed, what else is their concern?

I also saw a show about the reintroduction of buffalo into Yellowstone. The ranchers also seem opposed to this. I believe they were afraid that the buffalo would give their livestock brucellosis sp? I think there is a test but there was some problem with the test. I can't remember what the problem was though. I think maybe it gave false positives if an animal had been exposed but did not have it. The only way to know for sure then was to kill the animal and do an autopsy.

As far as our kill kill kill mentality, I believe it's more of a dominate mentality. And then if we can't dominate or contol the animal or person fit into our picture we just eliminate the problem. The strongest wins no matter the cost. I hate that and wish to stop it but then my husband has the viewpoint that this is our planet's evolution. I guess according to his way of thinking technology will save us or that we'll eventually die too and something else will eventually be strongest (maybe cockroaches?). What do you think?

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2002

I think that ranchers just want people to leave them the hell alone, and stop bothering them. Ranchers think reintroducing wolves is just something to placate the consciences of folks who live in cities who don't have a clue about managing a ranch. Ranchers like to do things the way they want (some of them have pretty tough lives) and don't want folks from the East Coast (especially) telling them what to do. There's a kind of shoot the messenger mentality, irrespective of the eco science. And survival of the fittest, where the rancher is in the equation, too.

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2002

Denise, I just picked up a flier about the Wolf Park this weekend, we're thinking about going up there sometime. When are you going there?

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2002

If we go it will be July 20-21 for the kids seminar. I'd be taking 2 of the 4 kids which fit into the 7-9 age group. It starts in the afternoon on Sat. and ends in the afternoon on Sun. I just got the go ahead on being able to stay with my kids as a volunteer. I couldn't imagine leaving my kids overnight with people I don't know and at place we've never been before. So now I'll discuss it some more with Jim this evening. I think we will probably go. If we do would you want to meet up for lunch on Sat. or dinner on Sun.?

Sheepish, are you telling me that it's mostly because the ranchers want to do things their own way and don't like being told what to do? Oh, there has to be more to it. Please elaborate on the rancher and survival of the fittest. I'm not sure I understood what you meant. It seems to me that the ranchers have an unfair advantage. The wolves don't have guns! :)

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2002

I wonder how the ranchers feel about the evidence that the decline of the wolf has had the effect of boosting the coyote population? Or do they ignore stuff like that? Just wondering in print . . . .

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2002

That's a neat site. I'll have to check back often and see if the wolves are visible. Wolves are my favorite animals. I used to know a man who raised wolf hybrids. They were so much like dogs it was easy to forget their wild nature. I was petting one of the full grown females one day thinking how calm and domesticated she seemed when suddenly she caught a movement out of the corner of her eye. She was instantly every bit a wolf. The wildness just blazed up in her eyes and body posture. Awesome...and it made me feel very humble to be a mere human in the presence of this fantastic creature, and she was just a hybrid.

-- Anonymous, July 08, 2002

Denise and Joy,

Yeah, I think they pretty much ignore it. There's sort of an old West mentality (the toughness part of it), and they really don't like anything that smacks of change. Just my observation (I don't know too many ranchers, but I've had casual conversations with a number of them. ..and over lots of topics: logging, river running, etc.). Even dairy farmers (who have lots of education, not that ranchers don't necessarily), tend to not want any change. These folks all see their worlds changing in ways that they don't like, and like most humans, don't want *any* part of the change...kind of the "there goes the neighborhood" attitude. And that's whether it makes sense (to some or all) or not...

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Oh and the survival of the fittest that I was referring to was regarding humans: urbanites vs. rural ranchers. I guess it could be wolves and humans, too.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Denise, Sunday would probably be better. I think that we are going to Columbus Indiana for the Scottish Festival on Saturday.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Ok, I'll try my best to answer for the ranchers' point of view, although it may be presumptuous to do so.

The government has set up and run a rangeland system for decades in the west that,like most govt programs, does more harm than good, at least in the long run. It allowed ranchers to use govt land (supposedly the citizens' land) for grazing and charged them a pittance to do so. It encouraged them to graze large cow/calf herds, then ship the weaned and started youngsters to massive feedlots where they are finished on grain.

Over the decades this rangeland system became a way of life for western ranchers. And it worked pretty well for them until the meatpackers started consolidating and the ranchers' profits dwindled, like all other farmers' have. Then they began getting ragged on by the enviromentalists for destroying the prairies, who wanted the government to start charging huge sums for the privilege of grazing. When their calves were attacked by predators, as they always have been, they suddenly were prohibited from what they see as simple self- defense by shooting the bugger. If that weren't bad enough, folks from the cities who have never spent a day on a ranch in their lives, are getting laws passed to INTRODUCE new predators! They feel beseiged and misunderstood, and they have no political clout.

I have read many stories about people's experiences with the so- called program of reimbursement. Like most govt programs, they look fine on paper, but actually getting a check in hand is an unbelievable maze of bureaucracy.

I don't think ranchers in general have any desire to rid the world of all predators. I think that's propaganda to turn folks against them. I dont really understand the reference to coyotes? Coyotes are known to take calves, although not as likely to as wolves since western coyotes are pretty puny animals.

As far as ranchers not wanting to be told what to do, well I dont see that they're any different than the rest of us. I resist authority figures myself. And that goes double when the 'authority' is someone or some entity that knows nothing about me or my life. Same goes for resisting change; dontcha think that's just a human trait?

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Ok, I understand a little better now. So how does this get resolved? It seems to me then that the cattle are where they aren't supposed to be. But never the less there has to be some way to make the situaton workable.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

EM, 'bout the coyotes -- the decline of the wolf has allowed the coyote population to "boom". That was the point, the coyotes are predators too, so, killing off the wolves has NOT solved "the problem".

As for their being used to having things a certain way -- things change. They have before, and they will again. My grandfather killed and collected the 25-cent-apiece bounty on great blue herons, enough so that he could buy a car (think how many herons that is, even if the car was only something in the range of $500! And he was FAR from the only one doing this)?! Should I stomp my feet and demand my 'right' to kill great blue herons and make a profit off of it? And on someone else's property?! Should I sneak out and kill them anyway, even if it IS illegal, so that I can sell the carcasses? I probably wouldn't make much money, but someone would buy them for some amount. So shouldn't I demand my right to do as my grandfather did?

Passenger pigeons and Carolina parakeets had no laws and no measures taken to save them. They're extinct. Absolutely gone, no hope of returning, ever. Do you know about Easter Island? Once it was forested, but the inhabitants cut down the trees. Even when it had to evident to them that the trees would not last forever, they continued to cut them down. After the trees were gone, they couldn't sustain their way of life, and they're gone now too. It's not known if some of them were able to migrate, but if they did, they were subsumed into some other group.

Okay, this has turned into a rant, so I'll quit now. And I wasn't ranting at YOU, EM. Thanks for attempting to explain their thinking.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Heh heh....hey there Joy.....you're welcome and all, but guess I didnt do a very good job of 'splainin' since you sound pretty pissed off.

First off.........this is Earthmama, remember me? I AM an enviromentalist, ya know! Maybe I'm especially thick today, but I really fail to understand your analogy. What do great blue herons have to do with defending one's livestock from predation? By the way, that's a fascinatin story! Who was buying them and what for?

Like I said earlier, the idea that the "ranchers," as a group, are in favor of "killing off all the wolves" is a stereotype. Sure there are some folks like that, just like some city folks who would have the misfortune of a close call with grizzle bears on a camping trip might be prone to forever after not give a knats ass if grizzlies went the way of the dodo. But my take on it, from reading those mags for several years, is that this is not the case with most of em. At least at the beginning of all this ruckus, they merely wanted to continue to hold onto the right to protect their livestock. Wolves dont usually attack the cows of course, they take the little fellas. Those little calves are much like sittin ducks out there, especially since many range cattle have had the horns bred out of em, which in an aggressive mama cow can be quite some help, from what I read.

I am not defending killing wolves, but I AM trying to present this in such a way that people can attempt to empathize with the ranchers, cuz I know after reading these peoples' experiences for awhile, I certainly was startled at the prejudices I had held about the situation. They are not bad people, and I guess it taught me a lesson about not judging till I've walked in their mocassins.

Coyotes DO take calves, like I said, but my understanding is that they are much less a threat to the cattle ranchers (not the same story with sheep however) cuz western coyotes are very small and would prefer to not mess with cattle if they have a choice.

Denise, I agree, there does have to be a solution. And as I see it, the government, with its strong-arm tactics, engineered by environmental groups which were insensitive to the humanity of the ranchers are to blame for this mess. If they had formed a coalition of sorts, with equal input from all sides, and worked out a true compromise like reasonable and respectful people, maybe this mess could have been avoided. Ivory tower environmental groups do a lot of damage, and shoot us all in the foot, when they get too arrogant. They have much to learn from folks who live real lives in the field, as do the ranchers have things to learn from folks with more book- learnin. Its about communication and respect. (same thing as parenting!) Trouble is, now so much damage has been done, there is so much bitterness and hatred on both sides, its like any other war. See how easy it is to make enemies, and find everything they do to be evil. We humans are like that.

Livestock protection dogs, and llamas, and donkeys are wonderful deterents to predation. Properly done electrical fencing, along with good pasture management practices would not only help protect the calves, but actually IMPROVE the prairies, rather than degrade them. The government could have helped pay for initial fencing if they really cared, but I reckon that's too expensive. After all, they need lotsa money for blasting away all the enemies we continue to make in the world.

Hope that makes it clearer how I see it.........interesting subject, no?

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

Gotta add my 2 cents in this discussion as well, I think the whole problem with ranchers and what they are doing, and have been doing for the last 100 years or so with the good graces and blessings of the BLM folks in charge, is stupendously stupid!!! I come from three generations of subsistence farmers, farmers that made ALL their income from their land, without any Governmental help of any kind, thank you very much. Not paid money not to grow things, that sort of lunacy and all.

The problem is that the folks in charge at the BLM don't have a rat's ass of a notion of how to properly manage the lands in use by the ranchers, it is scrub land now, didn't USED to be, but it is now after all these years of mismanagement and overuse and overgrazing. These BLM lands, which are all OURS collectively if you pay taxes, can't support any commercial grazing animals at ALL, not enough water, not enough subsoil, not enough rainfall to replace grazed over vegetation.

Heck, BLM lands can hardly support what naturally occuring wild critters live there in a good year, but at least wild critters numbers are regulated by Mother Nature, in the hard years of little rain and hard winter temperatures, few survive to reproduce the following year, and Mother Nature sure does a damn better job, albeit "cruel" seeming to us humans, of regulating exactly how many criiters will be able to survive on those lands.

It is just plain stupid for folks to try to farm, raise grains, or run cattle or sheep on lands that are so marginal that it takes 20 acres of country to support one cow and calf!!! We got way too much suitable land to do that kind of stuff on, more cost effectively and with less harm to the environment. Why run cattle in the high desert when you got thousands and thousands of acres in the rest of the country that will do a better job for less impact and money?

The excuse that they always did it that way doesn't condone continuing the practice, for pities sake! And water rights out there, geez, don't get me started on THAT one, folks ought to have more sense, you don't live where there is not suffient water to support you and your critters, period. If you got to pump it thousands of feet up out of the ground, that ought to tell you to get out of Dodge and go somewhere there is plenty of water just laying about right there on the surface for easy and cheap use. This is a huge, big country, we ought to spread out and use the areas most suited for humans and our critters, and quit despoiling the marginal areas by trying to live and raise critters there.

Really cool Denise, about the wolves, I wish they would reintroduce the gray wolves here in SE Ohio as well, we have plenty of deer, rabbit, squirrel and other small wildlife to support them too. Would have to re-educate the resident humans (at least we don't have many) about wolves though, but to hear the cry of the wolf at night again would be magical and precious.

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

I don't think it's only the cattle ranchers out west that are up in arms about the reintroduction of wolves. Here in Maine they've been talking about reintroduction of wolves for sometime now....but the avid deer hunters don't want more wolves around. And many of these deer hunters are from out of state who come to Maine for the trophy deer. They're afraid of competition!! But the coyote population is out of control in some areas and we have some good-sized coyotes! If the wolf was brought back here, many folks are sure they would control the coyotes. Over the last few years or so, there have been "sightings" of wolves and two documented shootings...which were quicky covered up. Didn't want to start a panic, I guess!! There have also been sightings of mountain lions, also quickly hushed up. Wonder why??!!

-- Anonymous, July 09, 2002

I meant to get back to this yesterday, but I was kinda busy.

Yes, EM, I am rather P-O'd about the ranchers' attitudes. And I DO know that you are an environmentalist and were just trying to explain their point of view. I believe I "got" their point of view, I just don't happen to agree with it. Any ranting on my part was because I don't agree with them, not because you reported it.

As far as my point with the herons, it was in relationship to your paragraph that began: "Over the decades this rangeland system became a way of life for western ranchers. And it worked pretty well for them until . . . "[snipped] Slaughtering herons worked pretty well for Grandpa. May I be defensive and hostile toward folks who don't want ME to continue with Grandpa's ways, because it's harmful to the eco-system? The fact that something has "always been done that way" doesn't make it right. And, right or wrong or neutral, there is no guarantee that things will not change. To me, at least, it has become obvious that their way of life is not going to continue to work. In fact, it never did work without their getting the grazing for free. Probably the ranchers wouldn't see it this way, but haven't THEY been "feeding at the public trough"? And if they're honest, they'll have to admit that they haven't been "going it alone", or their ancestors would have BOUGHT their own grazing land. So, I'm off on a mini-rant again! {sigh} I could go on, but I won't -- for now at least

As far as a bounty on the herons, I think it was because it was felt that the herons were too much competition with humans for fish. {roll eyes} Another effective predator, so wipe it out! Arrgh.

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002

Interesting. Two sheep farms within a couple-two-three miles of me have lost many sheep to coyotes (wiped out both flocks) since May. Dept of Fish and Game has determined that lately it's coyotes to blame. They're setting out snares for coyotes. Earlier in spring, the culprit was a cougar. Missing also are small house pets.

I'm concerned and hope my NZ hotwire fence is a good enough deterrent for these hungry coyotes. My flock comes up to the barn at night.

If I depended on sheep for a living, I'd especially be PO'd to share with predators. (Remember how pissed I was at the eagle taking my ducks last year?). Yet I have to respect nature (I still try to live in it...regretfully not as much as I'd like, even).

It would be easy to get riled up about wolves, especially if I was a rancher having a bad year, spouse was sick, truck broke, and if I *listened to talk radio*, especially.....

-- Anonymous, July 11, 2002