Papal Decrees - just for Catholics?greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
My local diocese Bishop, (Bishop Dunn) has recently copped a lot of flak from a group of hard core conservatives for his comments on contraception. They say he breached a papal decree by suggesting that NON Catholics who sleep around should use contraception to protect thensleves and others. Are Papal decrees only for Catholics, or for all people/ Should the Bishop resign, should the laity be protesting in the undignified way against his comments- they believe he should recant or be sacked. Any thoughts, was he out of line, especially given that an ever increasing proportion of CATHOLICS( or at least those who call themselves Catholic) in NZ use contraception?
-- KG (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 12, 2002
If that's what he really said, he was not only out of line, he is horribly abusing his office, commiting grave sin, and publicly scandalizing not only the faithful, but even those in false religions. Can you post a link to a news source on this story? I'd be interested.
-- jake (jake__@msn.com), June 12, 2002.
He should have included that "anyone" who has sex and does not wish to have children should use contraceptives and anyone who does not protect himself from passing on or receiving a multitude of diseases is sinful.In the U.S. the acceptance of birth control is part and parcel of the MAJORITY of catholic lives and has been for over 30 years. Its time the rest of the catholics caught up. I don't care what il Papa says, nor do others when it comes to this very personal and responsible action.
-- Mary (MWhite@aol.com), June 12, 2002.
MaryI am ashamed of your actions and words on this forum. First of all you have totally denied GOD in you own words and furthermore You sounded off as if you promote free sex on demand. This is totally foolish on your part and not condoned by anyone on this forum and a disgrace towards GOD.
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 12, 2002.
"In the U.S. the acceptance of birth control is part and parcel of the MAJORITY of catholic lives and has been for over 30 years. Its time the rest of the catholics caught up. I don't care what il Papa says..."I supose the most glaring of the many errors in your short post is that contraception is "part & parcel of catholic lives." By engaging in birth control, you have removed yourself from the Church, and are no longer Catholic. There are lots of churches that allow contraception. I suggest a Google search, or the Yellow Pages. Bon Voyage.
-- jake (jake__@msn.com), June 12, 2002.
The Majority of Catholics, and the Majority of the Earth will be cast into hell on judgment day (this is Scriptural!). So, now, let me see: Do I want to be a part of the Majority? NO WAY!Mary, KG, ALL - Here are some links to previous discussions on this issue. I hope it is usefull.
One should also note that contraception may not be the "key" to stopping the population growth simply because contraception also increases the sex rate, and combined with its inherant failure percentage from as low as 2% to as high as 10%, the birth rate due to contracepting couples may indeed out run the birth rate of non- contracepting (married) couples. I thought I had written out a paragraph on the numbers. But I believe the parent question was from Molson, who I am happy to say has been deleted.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), June 12, 2002.
MaryLet me tell you a story about LOVE which comes only from GOD called AGAPE. My mother at 42 yrs of age gave birth to a boy who is 21 yrs younger than I and that birth gave the family many fits in the first 20+ yrs.
But GOD gave us a truly precious package as Randy turned out to be the most non-judgemental and hardest working one of all us siblings. He spent countless hours taking care of 2 beautiful daughters while their mother worked taking care of sick people(SHE IS AN RN). He also spent many nights helping my mother take care of my father with an incredible patience I have never seen before despite the fact my father was a very hard man to live with. He has Alzhiemers now for about 10 yrs and recently is in a nursing home. So in spite of the hardships Randy had as a child of elder parents who really did not want him in the beginning, he ended up returning his LOVE in ways that I never expected. He has become a GOD-Send for my parents in that he returned to them much LOVE and gave back to his parents nothing but LOVE and my mother thanks GOD now each and every day for his being around.An unwanted pregnancy turned out to be the best one. We all LOVE our brother for his ability to LOVE beyond the capacity of many people.
If my parents took birth control we would not have had his LOVE today.
If my parents were free to have an abortion today Randy and I (Handicapped ) would not be here either.
So in closing, I want to say this: Who are we? Gifts of GOD to our parents? YES, YES. AMEN.
DAD is 86 and MOM is 80.
Blessings.
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 12, 2002.
Thank you so much, jake, Jake, and Fred for your good replies to KG.A Catholic bishop cannot give permission to, or encourage, anyone (Catholic or not) to commit sin. Every use of a contraceptive is mortally sinful. If Bishop Dunn did what was wrong, he should correct himself publicly.
The laity should protest quietly (by letter to the bishop and, if necessary, to the papal nuncio to NZ), so as not to undermine the bishop's authority as a successor of the apostles. The laity can also have an effect by (without mentioning the bishop) distributing the facts about contraception, helping everyone to have access to copies of Pope Paul VI's brief encyclical ("Humanae vitae"), addressed to all Christians -- the famous 1968 restatement of the perennial teaching against contraception. Copies of HV can be made and passed out for very little money (free via e-mail).
The Catholic Church will never be influenced by the percentage of people (Catholic or not) who commit a sin, such as using contraception. She will always teach the truth, which is unchanging for all ages.
God bless you.
John
-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), June 12, 2002.
I know I have recently caused a stir in another section of this forum, but to all your replies against birth control, I say.......AMEN. What is a sin, is a sin for everyone, Catholic or not. I come from a large family in a day when you don't see that much anymore. My brother has 5 children with #6 on the way, ages 10 and under. My newly married sister has just found out she is expecting. Another sister has 4 children. Another brother has 2, and another sister has 1 with #2 on the way. I have 3. So you see, large families are grand. They teach one how to be unselfish, although I have not completely mastered that myself. :) Contraception has just escalated promiscuous sex.
-- JH (consulting@probank.com), June 12, 2002.
YepFolks meet a smarty mouth named JH who thinks she and her sspx style group is above the POPE and VATICAN II. She wants us all to conform to her way of worship. Not the way we do today. She is in full defiance to the POPE and our bishops and Her priest is an outcast who refused to follow the Vatican II decrees. She is also illiterate to what Popes Pius all the way up to Pope John Paul II have taught.
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 12, 2002.
Fred, I do not believe Christ would be proud of your malicious behavior. For you have called me prideful, as I very well may be, but try hard to learn humility. Although, you shall certainly not be the one who will teach me that virtue. For all you who believe such rubbish about thinking we are above the pope.....you need to go to the section "3rd Secret of Fatima" as you will see how we accept the authority of the Pope and recognize him very much so as the true Pope. He never ordered excommunication for anyone under the reasons Fred is saying.Now if I wasn't mistaken, this section was on Birth Control. A topic we may actually agree on.
-- JH (consulting@probank.com), June 12, 2002.
Humility???You show absolutely no humility towards our priests and church now. Who in hell do you take me for? A fool. nope I will not follow your evil ways the devil has got you to follow.
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 12, 2002.
JH He never ordered excommunication for anyone under the reasons Fred is sayingYou are gravely mistaken on that one for sure. The actions of the priest you are following has indeed excommunicated him alone. The Pope DOES NOT have to make a public anouncement of that at all. He chosed to disobey the directives of his local Bishop and thereby caused his own loss. Sorry you lose again.
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 12, 2002.
Fred,Here's an occasion in which JH is on the right side. Contraception, proclaimed it would "help" humanity with its sexuality, instead it contributed to an increased abuse of sexuality.
JH, I certainly don't agree with you in distancing yourself from mainstream Catholocism; but I know that you share a great deal in common with us Catholics on the forum.
JH, I trust 100% that you are on the side of the Culture of Life. God bless you for that!
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), June 12, 2002.
Thankyou all for your opinions, it is apparently not the first time the name Bishop Dunn has raised eyebrows in the Vatican. I of course am in no position to judge a Bishop...Jake the article can be found here: http://www.faithcentral.net.nz/inclass/media/herald.htm
Fred you said you were handicapped, is it rude of me to ask what handicap you have? LOL
-- KG (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.
KG,I read that article. What a shame! Here is what he said in a nutshell.
"I suppose the point I [am] making is that if people are going to do this anyway, then I would say first of all please don't do it.
But if you are going to do it, and of course many do, then certainly try to restrict the harm that you may well cause to yourself and to others."
WHAT!!!!!!!! What kind of father tells their child, "well don't take drugs. But I know that you probably are going to do it any way, so here take these "clean" needles. Hmmm. Ya think highschools should pass out clean needls; they're ganna do it anyway, right? (kind of like - hint, hint, nuge, nuge - makes you wonder if this doesn't just come across as a flat out JUST DO IT) :)
This Bishop is already presupposing that people are going to do it. And by saying "well, if you do it, use contraception". He's not only almost fostering the first sin (fornication), but then he is certainly condoning the second sin (disobeying the Church on contraception).
Now, had I been the Bishop (or when I become a dad) I would have said a firm No, and if you do happen to do it [have premarital sex] let me warn you of the consequences (First consequence: Hell, Second consequence: child). And if you use contraception you run the same risks (slightly higher on the first on and maybe slightly smaller on the second one).
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), June 13, 2002.
KiwiFred you said you were handicapped, is it rude of me to ask what handicap you have? LOL
1. I am handicapped not was. I lost most of my hearing as a result of my mother contracting Rubella during her pregnacy with me.
2. Why did you have to laugh about this? It is no fun being severely hard-of-hearing as I am facing the reality of totally losing what hearing I have in the near future. These days are difficult as my ability to interpret statements by others is becoming very difficult as a result of the damage the Rubella has done to me. It frustrates me at times and it shows and truthfully I don't like what it is doing to me at all. I have only GOD to help me and a very trusting and understanding wife and family to keep me from losing my sanity over this problem I have had ALL of my life.
So I have now told you I do pray that you would be a little kinder to those who have severe handicaps. I also have a niece whom I love dearly who was "still born" who is also handicapped as a result too. She helps me to feel better about myself as she is the most loving a precious person I have ever known. Being Handicapped DOES have it's plusses too. It is called LOVE and it radiates GOD. AGAPE.
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 13, 2002.
Fred thanks for explaining that, we all have handicaps, I certainly do. I hope that you do not lose your hearing completly . I know how frustrating it can be -my father is as deaf as a door nail but refuses to wear a hearing aid because he is a silly proud old bugger sometimes. I would never laugh at your situation. God Bless
-- KG (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.
Jake you have shown yourself to be a humble knowledgable young Catholic, a great example to me and others thankyou.As for Bishop Dunn-well he has some serious explaining to do. Are these type of comments common from American Church leaders, or would Dunn be out on a limb in the States?
-- KG (csisherwood@hotmail.com), June 13, 2002.
KiwiBishop Dunn would definitely be in deeptrouble in the States with his fellow clergy and parishioners. To a point of a revolt/ possibly. I would say - Defrocked by many of his followers and forced to reconsider his statements. His behavior is not typical of Catholics here.
Blessings
-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), June 14, 2002.