After having done yet an inventory of my photographic interest, potenital and passion, I'm realizing that a Leica rangefinder comes closest to perfection since I highly value small size/package and fast high quality lenses to do my travel, candid portraits, city/street photography.

I had a M6TTL with a 35/2 asph. Cumbersome process but I was happy with the result (but I do have a sense that I missed some great shots). I would really appreciate the AE of the M7 I believe. Also I think the on/off switch would serve be greatly (and DX coding is good for us absent minded people).

Now, since my allround lens of choice will be a 50mm, and then I'm planning to add a 75 'lux quickly (perhaps a Noctilux or a 90 instead/as well) I'm strongly leaning towars the .85 vf. I think the .72 was a bit small, and I have no intention of shooting 28mm lens. If I indeed want wide angle, I'd go with a 21mm or wider and then an external vf would be in place.

Now, what is wrong with that line of reasoning? I'm not worried about battery dependance, nor 'doing it all myself'. a .72 vf w/ the 1.25x magnifier is an option, but that's wasting $200 on a $25 product. I'm a bit concerned about the high M7 price (even though I'm offered to buy one at $2,209 from auth dealer). Another concern is the arrival of the M7 .85 - I could be waiting for months and months.

What what have I forgot/overseen in my assessment?

cheers,

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002

Answers

Don't use your technical reasoning to justify an M7. There are other cameras out there that do more for less.

You'll never regret buying one if you use it like a camera should be...

-- Kevin Baker (kevin@thebakers.org), May 31, 2002.

Pat,

One more tidbit for you to think about. Leica is adding a mod to the M7 for the third run, due on or around October 1. Supposed to be a "flair fix" for the viewfinder.

Personally, I'd just get one now. The prices won't come down for a long while!

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), May 31, 2002.

Sorry, I can't talk you out of it - I love mine. As far as I'm concerned, the M7 is the first slam-dunk upgrade Leica has done since the original M6 in 1985.

I've been assured by a gentleman from Solms that the .58 and .85 finders will be out by the end of June, so I don't think you will have "months and months" to wait. A .85 finder sounds appropriate, given your focal length interests - I agree that a .72 with a 1.25x is a less attractive solution if you'd normally shoot 50mm and longer lenses.

The additional cost of an M7 over the M6 is an issue only you can justify. For me it works like this: The M7 is the camera that will be Leica's flagship for the next fifteen years or so. The extra few hundred dollars amortized over that time period is insignificant, if you plan to shoot with Leica M's for that long.

From my point of view, the M7 is a no-brainer for anyone considering buying a new Leica today.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), May 31, 2002.

Pat

You said you had an M6TTL. What happened to it? If you sold it because it was not for you then I doubt an M7 will work either. AE might help a bit for fast moving shots when the light is changing, but it is not that much of a big deal really.

"Also I think the on/off switch would serve be greatly"

Surely you jest sir? This is a VERY small change.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

Robin: About the switch - from a camera handling point of view this is not a small deal. OK, it's not as big a change as a flip-open back might have been, but a switch that prevents in-bag exposures and battery drain with a single simple movement of the index finger is a mighty useful addition. It may seem like small potatoes because it's such a simple thing, but imagine if your house lights had to be turned off by unscrewing the light bulbs... What's so astonishing is not that they put the switch on the M7, but how long it took them to realize what a good idea it was.

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), May 31, 2002.

I bought Pat's M6! What a gentleman. I've also been fortunste Pat to use an M7, (my son is a photographer and got me onto the system). I use them both and love the ability to just worry about the F stop in certain occasions, I know that I've gotten shots that are better exposed and "captured the moment" with the 7. I'm used to a Nikon auto system so my experience is probably as usual unique to me and those who have shot Leica for years may not make as big an issue of it. The camera is a joy to use and I find myself looking for it more than I thought it would. Your M6 is well taken care of and has so far seen a lot of use.. I'd go for the M7 Pat!

-- gary brown (drdad1111@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002.

The AE is a great feature for my shooting style; I snapped at the M7 after wanting an M6 for many years but not obtaining one because I didn't want to be forced to meter manually (although of course I often do work this way). It is quite rapid to set the aperture, meter for where "middle gray" should be, lock the exposure with a partial shutter press to fix the shutter speed, and proceed. If I change my mind, I just let up on the release, move the camera a little to fish another shutter speed, trap with a partial press, and continue.

There is one thing to consider in your assessment, since it wasn't obvious to me just by reading the specs, and is my major complaint about the M7. With my EOS3 I can really use the exposure compensation dial on the back "on the fly" instead of the catch and release approach with the shutter button described above. The M7 requires you hold a button with one hand while twirling a dial with the other, which is not so much fun to do with the camera at eye level while there is action going on. Indeed, people who use the camera manually have it better for tweaking exposure than those who use it automatically and would want to use exposure compensation to quickly tweak the exposure. Furthermore, the "0" setting on the compensation dial has the same click-feel as the other settings, so you need to keep count of where you are (+/-6 clicks) or look to see where you are compensation-wise. While purists who like an uncluttered finder might shudder, the EOS3 is great since it gives you exposure compensation settings right in the viewfinder. Possibly someone on the list knows the proper "manual of arms" to use the compensation dial more satisfactorily?

-- Matt Sachs (mattsachs@attbi.com), May 31, 2002.

See, the new M7 IS bringing in new blood. Maybe Leica will get profitable and come out with some REALLY important advancements...like MORE FAST ASPH LENSES in the spirit of the fabulous 28/2 ASPH... for those of us who aren't all wrapped up in the box at the end of the lens. Hey, I think I'll start a thread about "dream Leica lenses"

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), May 31, 2002.

Hey Marc, how about a 24/2 asph? yum...

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

I almost sold my entire M6TTL and lens setup, but for several reasons I held on to it for a while, never using it, mostly because a Leica lens is such a thing of beauty and wonderful to hold and admire. But along came the M7 with aperature priority autoexposure and on/off switch, so I traded my M6TTl for a M7, ordered more M lenses and now barely use my Nikons. The quality of the pics are fabulous, and probably more vibrant than my Nikkor AF S f2.8 lenses, and much lighter. By the way I sold my M6 and lenses around 1993 because I couldn't live without TTL flash. Go for the M7 - fantastic camera.

-- Rich Weiss (richardkw@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

well, my M6TTL was a try out to see what all the fuss was about. Once I got used to the Leica lenses, it is hard to turn back, particularly I miss access to fast (and relatively small) lenses. I realized that .72 wasn't probably for me and that my 35/2 asph was a bit too wide for my everyday shooting - voila - the combo found a new home at Gary's.

Regarding on/off. I actually think it is a rather big deal. I think the lack of it on the M6 is idiotic and I lose valuable time fumbling with it.

My last hesitant on the M7 is that there has been some minor issues with it, perhaps waiting a few months might be the wise thing to do. Then again, If I was wise why would I be spending thousands of dollars on Leica gear...

cheers,

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002.

Pat -

DO NOT BUY AN M7 or M6 for use with a 50mm lens. No rangefinder flare, perfect 50mm frame-lines filling the viewfinder, viewfinder DESIGNED with .91 magification? You have only one choice - an M3, the best rangefinder for the 50mm lens that Leica or anyone for that matter, has ever made. This perfect combination of camera and lens can not be bested by any bastardization of camera/add-on magnifier combination, made by any manufacturer of rangefinder cameras of any era. The de-evolutionary process at Leica started soon thereafter, and continues today, to where we are discussing magnifiers on electronic shuttered Leicas with flareing finders. PS - Suggest M2 or M4 for the 35mm lens.

Doug

-- Doug Ford (dford@san.rr.com), May 31, 2002.

It's funny, but I've recently been told that many M7 buyers cited the on/off switch as a big factor in their decision to buy. Is that crazy or what? Now, it IS nice to have and convenient, but am I wrong or the M6 "classic" already had the "B" position to turn off the electric circuitry, and the M6 TTL actually had an "off" position? Of course, a switch isn't worth all that extra money. But AE and DX coding and high speed TTL flash with dedicated Metz 54 and quieter shutter are... almost. Now, for that viewfinder, I don't think you should plan on never wanting to shoot anything wider than 50 and go with the .85. The .72 is a good medium compromise. If you really have problems focusing the longer focals then, yes, get a magnifier. Sure, the price is ludicrous, but you will not jeopardize a possible need for wider framing. IMHO.

-- Olivier (olreiche@videotron.ca), May 31, 2002.

There are rumors a new VF to further improve flair in Sept. Maybe worth the wait. I have one and enjoy it very much, but refuse to give up my M6ttl.

-- John Abela (jamriman@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002.

Pat, from the sound of your post trying to talk you out of an M7 would be like trying to talk a jumper down when he's already airborne. Life is short. So is the time left for 35mm film photography. If you want an M7, buy one.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 31, 2002.

Attention Steve and John: the word is "flare"... not "flair". Although I'd agree that the Leica M system does have "flair" (a stylish sense).

-- john costo (mahler@lvcm.com), May 31, 2002.

just buy one. geez...

-- Dexter Legaspi (dalegaspi@hotmail.com), May 31, 2002.

<<< DO NOT BUY AN M7 or M6 for use with a 50mm lens. No rangefinder flare, perfect 50mm frame-lines filling the viewfinder, viewfinder DESIGNED with .91 magification? You have only one choice - an M3, the best rangefinder for the 50mm lens that Leica or anyone for that matter, has ever made >>>

I believe that the main reason that an .85 M7 shines vs. the M3 is the AE. Yes, my M3 is a masterful product, almost perfect, but the use of an external meter and manual exposure should not be underestimated in it's impact. I had a .85 M6 for a while, and it was very nice for longer lenses. If he REALLY doesn't shoot much below 50, wait for the .85. If you use the 75/1.4, you will need the framelines.

The M3 is NOT a substitute for an AE camera, no matter how good it's RF or flare-resistance. If you don't get the shot with your m3 properly exposed because your subject moved quickly into different light and you couldn't react fast enough, all the great mechanics and RF aren't worth a hill of beans.

Buy what you need to do your job. The M7 is a masterful piece of equipment and it has an honored place in my bag, right next to the M3 and Hexar RF.

-- Skip Williams (skipwilliams@pobox.com), June 01, 2002.

Is AE that important? Seriously, if you are shooting Tri x in an almost constant lighting environmet, how much fluctuation of exposures are we talking about? one stop?

Just print the negative with graded papers and you should get what you need.

Just buy the M7 if you can afford it. It's not going to improve your pictures anymore than what you can do with the M6s.

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), June 01, 2002.

I agree with Lux. I don't know why anyone would spend top dollar for an M7 when you can get great deals on M6 TTL's right now. I've seen new USA ones for $1850. With a leica day discount and the $200 rebate they're currently offering, that's $1465. You could buy a lens, or a lot of film, with the savings.

I agree that the on/off swich might be nice for when the camera is in the bag, but no street or candid photographer I know would ever turn the camera off. The best pictures have a way of happening when your camera is turned off. The fact that the M6 can't turn off means it's always ready for action. It's a trade-off for some wasted shots of the inside of your bag. Film is cheap.

If you want automation, I don't think that a Leica is the right choice. Get an F100 with a 28/1.4. One of the nice things about shooting with an all-manual M is that it forces you to think more and make decisions. I believe if you shoot enough with a Manual camera, you'll come to trust your own judgement more than that of some automatic camera.

This is just my opinion, of course. I'm sure you'll be happy with whatever you choose.

-- Noah (naddis@mindspring.com), June 01, 2002.

No one in this thread has asked Pat what *type* of film he shoots. If he shoots B&W or color negs Lux's answer certainly make sense; however, IMHO, if he shoots slides almost exclusively, the the precision shutter on the M7 makes sense.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), June 01, 2002.

Pat, you have got to be completely confused by now ! Let me share with you my experience... I have ALL the Leica M cameras, the R bodies and most of Leica's M & R lenses, including the rare f2.8 35-70 Vario zoom lens. I bought the M7 when it first came out, and I never look back. I carry with me the M7 + f2.0/28 ASPH and a digital camera everywhere I go. The M7 is a professional "point and shoot" camera. If I wanted serious photgraphy done, and have time to spare and prepare, I can also use a Hasselblad + tripod, which takes a long time to set up. The M7 gives you the choice of manual or auto, so it should be a good choice. I have very little reason to go back to my M6. The M3 and M4 is a different story... I hope you find this information useful.

-- Sandy Shore (nitking08@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

valid question, george. I tend to shoot b&w and color in neg, but I'm swithing to slide for my color work. And buying a scanner so I perhaps can put my money (result? talent?) where my mouth is... :-)

Also, even if I know I'll get an M7 sooner or later, I'm still debating getting a used M6TTL .85 for now and getting a M7 on a later production batch. But then again, I might not have the cash available at a later date... (gotta spend Uncle Sam's tax return on something that makes sense)

cheers, and thanks for all the valuable input so far.

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), June 01, 2002.

Just print the negative with graded papers and you should get what you need.

Just buy the M7 if you can afford it. It's not going to improve your pictures anymore than what you can do with the M6s

Move to auto will make you a lazy photographer stick to manual it will make you think.You will enjoy more and be better.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), June 01, 2002.

Hey Pat, Remember that whatever equipment you get itīs not gonna be what improves your photography. I say get an m6 and spend the extra money on film...

Good luck /J

-- jon gustafson (jongustafson@hotmail.com), June 01, 2002.

Move to auto will make you a lazy photographer...

Allen. This is a bunch of nonsense. The thought process in determining exposure is then same using the M6 manual or the M7 aperture priority AE. And if you don't like the shutter speed that pops up, you can always change the aperture. The only difference, as far as I am concerned, is that the AE works a lot faster than the M6 type manual exposure. Faster does NOT equal less thoughtful. If we were talking about full program auto, I might agree with you.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), June 02, 2002.

>Gettin a M7 - pls talk me out of it...

Wait another year. The M7 will get some improvements and will be cheaper.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), June 02, 2002.

Oh Pat, you poor tormented soul!

First suggestion. Don't trade off the M6TTL. You need a second body. Since you don't seem to be poor and you really want the M7 go for it. If you have the cash just think that might waste it on something silly.

I'll tell what I am doing, for what it is worth. I am waiting a year or so. I want to be sure all the bugs are out and the price might be just a little down. But that's me, not you.

I've found that if you really think about what you want you are generally happy when you get what ever it is you want--be it a camera, a change in life, or a haircut.

Best,

Alex

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), June 02, 2002.

Paul

Hmm I think the analogy is more like the main power switch for a whole house, my usual light on off switch in this case is the shutter release. I still do not think it is a big deal. I turn the dial on and off from "Off" on my M6 TTL usually once a day - when it comes out of the bag and when it goes in - otherwise it is around my neck. Glad you have the camera pat I am sure you will enjoy it. As if we could really talk you out of it! I still think a better investment is to buy another lens though rather than a body.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), June 04, 2002.