I am retiring this week and I will be getting some paid leave money (about $900)in addition to a last months check. I was going to buy a digital camera with a few accessories, but I get a little leery of these cameras' durability. So now I am thinking of getting a good user M3 instead. I already own an M4-2 & a Bessa R2, a 35mm f2.8 Summaron, a 90mm Tele Elmarit and a 50mm Nokton. This might be the last opportunity to budget something like this, so I have to make up my mind what to do. What would you folks do? Thanks, John

-- John H Osterholm (Barjo4@attbi.com), May 29, 2002

Answers

I would put the money into Leica equipment, rather than digital, but not necessarily an M3, unless it's something you've always wanted. I would probably add a wider lens to my outfit.

In any case, the Leica equipment will hold its value, while in a year a digital camera will be obsolete and in two years you will be able to buy one twice as good for half as much.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), May 29, 2002.

Hi John,

I use a Leica M6TTL w/ 35 & 50mm 'crons. I love using my Leica gear, but I'm also planning to buy a digicam for point & shoot purposes. I'll probably get the Coolpix 5000 which I had an opportunity to use during this past weekend. The Leica and Coolpix are entirely different beast, but that's partly why I want both. The Coolpix is very well made and I'm not concerned about durability. Yes, digicams depreciate rapidly and Leica gear doesn't. But, the digicam offers technology that a Leica M doesn't. ASince I plan to buy a digicam I'm happy with, I'm not concerned about it's future value anyway. Feel free to e-mail me offline for more details about the Coolpix.

-- Ken Prager (pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), May 29, 2002.

john:

from business, you know that the average life expectancy of a computer is 18 months and for a lap top is 3 years. assume that your digital camera will have a life expectancy of three years before it is obsolete, then what? I would get a good user m3, that with a good CLA should last you long enough to pass down to your grandchildren. the M3 is made for the 90 and the 50. If you feel the need to go wider, then that is also an option, however at this point I am assuming that you know what lenses you want to shoot.

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), May 29, 2002.

John:

Check out this recently CLA'd Leica M3.:-)....

-- Muhammad Chishty (applemac97@aol.com), May 29, 2002.

John, with a further input of about $250-400 you can get a very good used M6 or M6TTL judging by the market these days. If you are an M4-2 user, you will love the M6 for its meter. A few hundred dollars more should get you a 50 Summicron too. IMHO, the nicest lens Leica has made yet.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), May 29, 2002.

Either you're buying a camera to take/make pictures, or you're not. There are other investments that make more sense than camera gear, even Leica camera equipment. IMO what you have to do is set a threshhold for what is the use/acceptablility of a digital camera, get it and don't look back ( or in the case of digital don't look forward ). When the D1x reached the level of imaging I needed, I got it. And it does exactly what I wanted/needed out of a digital camera. All that said, I'd opt for the Leica and start saving for a scanner. But, on the other hand, seeing your snapshots right away IS a LOT of fun.

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), May 29, 2002.

Why would you want to buy another leica mount body ? I don't see how that would help you in any way. How about getting a canon powershot g1 (or g2) and microdrive ? You'll be amazed by what you can do with it.

-- leonid (murkacat@hotmail.com), May 29, 2002.

Walmart here has a VGA digital camera with USB for 40 dollars..This is 480x640...Good enough to email to ones relatives a few snapshots of you/John happy with also having a Leica!! ; which holds it value!

One can get a scanner and scan those great negatives later on....Digital is fabulous & great; but unlike a rake; iron, skillsaw, hammer, Leica M3....It devaluates like a computer something like 1% per week!! Kelly

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

John I just saw Outside Magazine's issue with their best pictures of the year. From the looks of them and the type of people that subscribe to this Mag I am assuming that the pics are all digital. Sorry but I can't get excited over digital yet. I've just gotten back into photography after a ten year hiatus with all intentions of going digital. but after looking at the results I'll stick with the Leica gear. IMHO there is nothing out there yet that offers the snap and beautiful colors hues that film can render. I won't even talk about B&W. For me that is an artform that I still must master and hopefully it will take the rest of my life to do. FWIW stay with the Leica its well worth it.

-- Andy Wagner (awagner@midwest-express.com), May 29, 2002.

I agree here. Plus, unless you buy a mint M3 that a collector will be interested in (in which case, you better not use it), it'll be subject to the just about the same uncertain market as every other film camera as digital progresses. At this point, 5 and 6 megapixel digicams can really rival most 35mm film cameras at print sizes up to 11x14...which is pretty much the limit of 35mm anyway. So if you want digital, I wouldn't be overly concerned with obsolescence. The Coolpix 5000 is very tempting--particularly the (35mm-equivalent)28- 85 lens range.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 29, 2002.

I case one thinks VGA is lame ; here is a work shot...Here is a 480x640 pixel shot (VGA ) of my adventures of a stuck needle valve in the generator carb.....Camera used was an Olympus D360L in VGA mode....I like to take digital photos of items I fix for future reference

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

Thanks for all the great response. You fellows are O.K.! I happen to live in the Pacific North West where it rains alot. My intention is to USE the camera, and I hate the thought of investing a bag full of money and ruin it by a little water. If and when I get a scanner for negatives & slides, the advantage of the digital will be somewhat reduced. The instant picture and the flash card memory are a plus over film. I am probably not expressing myself too well. I just happen to like the feel of the M series. I've owned an M4 and an M2R in the distant past - alas, they went for debts years ago. But now I'm ok, and I want something more than what I have. I believe the BessaR2 is just fine - no M6, but certainly as good as a CL. Now I'm rambling, so I'll shut up now. Thanks again. John

-- John H Osterholm (Barjo4@attbi.com), May 29, 2002.

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

OK?

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

Interesting; I pasted the html that worked from the "html test thread area" here ; and it didnt work...

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

$900?

Buy film!

-- John Collier (jbcollier@shaw.ca), May 29, 2002.

Hmm...did I make a sexist remark? I used the expression 'fellows.' Kelly, are you a lady? If so, I meant no offense. John

-- John H Osterholm (Barjo4@attbi.com), May 29, 2002.

Stuck float needle 480x640 shot...A cheap digital is handy for recording how stuff goes back together....When all greasy who whats to ruin an expensive digital camera or an M?

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 29, 2002.

john:

get the m3. I know the tone of your last response. for some it is that morgan roadster that got away or that (fill in the blank) that you wish you had, but had bills to pay. you want it and can afford it, at this stage in your life you don't need anyone telling you not to do it and you dont need to find excuses to do it. buy the m3.

good luck and good shooting well into your retirement.

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), May 29, 2002.

You already have two M mount bodies and three good lenses so why the need for more equipment? Spend the $900 on plane tickets. I suggest three weeks in Thailand.

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), May 29, 2002.

If it was me I'd get a Canon G2 and some media, or a good film scanner. But you are going to need a decent computer to go with it plus a good printer. But then I have an M3 plus an M2 and an M6. You can't do anything with three bodies that you can't do with two. I really believe you should get whatever makes you happy. To me the digital cam would open up a new world. Check out the kids over on Photosig.com. A lot of them started out with a digital camera and have never used anything else. A lot of energy and creativity over there. Good luck!

-- Gil Pruitt (wgpinc@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002.

True, a digital PS can open up new worlds. But you'll need a decent computer, photoshop and a good printer to take full advantage. I shoot digital at work, and there are a lot of limitations. One of my D1's stopped working a few weeks ago after getting damp in a light rain, so durability is an issue. My dad has one he uses for family photos, etc., and he loves it. He can shoot pictures of his grandson and instantly email them to family several states away.

I do worry about the archival issues involved, especially when you're talking about family photographs. Chances are, if you have a BW negative or kodachrome slide, in 100 years you'll be able to scan it, print it or whatever the current technology is. But who knows if your CDR will be readable.

This is a decision you have to make. My gut instinct, of course, is to go with the Leica gear. An M3, maybe a wider or faster lens, whatever you think will be best for your needs. If you decide on a new leica body, check out prices on the M6, as there are bargains to be found, new or used. I bought a brand new, USA passport, M6 TTL .58. On leica day, with the discount and current $200 rebate, it set me back $1465.

-- Noah (naddis@mindspring.com), May 29, 2002.

Is photo equipment only as good as it's resale value? How many of you only buy cars that you can resell for the same ammount of money? He already has two M mount cameras. One might make an argument that he could lose one of the two and get an M6 instead, but it would be a pretty thin argument. If a Canon G2 (digital) takes excellent snapshots now, will it take worse snapshots in a year when the price has dropped by half? Not buying something now because you can get it cheaper in a year is bad logic. We'd all still be typing on typewriters, or actually, probably writing with fountain pens. Although paper is still kind of expensive............

I'm all for getting a new lens. But I don't think another body is a good idea. Go for a nice pocketable snapshot digital (Canon s110, nikon 775, or something similar) and use the rest to get a Voigtlander wide lens (24 or 21 would be my suggestions).

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), May 29, 2002.

Hi John: The first question is - what do you want out of a digital camera? If you want to print images, then you will also need a photo inkjet printer - about $200.00 for one that will print up to 8-1/2 X 11. The replacement ink cartridges are expensive, too. If you want to manipulate the images, then you will need Photoshop - about $500 - or - Photoshop Elements (Maybe OK) about $100. I assume that you have a computer that will run Photoshop (or Elements) and at least 256K of RAM in a PC - more in a MAC. My point is that a digital camera for quality prints is only the first leg of expenditures in a system that will produce the desired results.

If you want to email pictures, then a 4X6 print scanned on a $100 flat bed scanner is OK - not great but OK. A cheap digital camera - as described in this thread - is an alternative.

With what you have invested in already and assuming that your M4-2 is in good shape, I would suggest that you find a mint, latest 50mm Summicron-M and buy the Voitlander (sp?) shoe mount meter.

I have my Dad's old M3 and his 50mm Summicron (Rigid) that has just been CLAed by Sherry Krauter. The photos taken with that old lens - and camera - are stunning (I will post some when my house remodel is done - my scanner is packed to avoid fatal dust contamination). (I also have a one generation removed Summicron 50 - a stunning lens also - bought with my M6 Classic.) I think your kit is lens weak and camera strong - the latest Summicron 50 is the best lens for a Leica M that money can buy. Get it. Use good film - my current favorites are Fuji NPH and ILford XP2. Take pictures. Get prints made.

Regards, Doug

-- Doug Landrum (dflandrum@earthlink.net), May 30, 2002.

i'd definitely go with ray: you only have two hands and two shoulders to carry your cameras. take a trip to a place where you have never been before and use what you have!

if you still feel tempted by digital, you can get a used digital ixus or elph or however they are called in the US for not much money, they won't deliver 35mm quality, but are a nice and stylish p&s with a good quality feel behind them.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), May 30, 2002.

I don't think there is much point getting a new body -they do really very little. I suggest a new lens - such as a Voigtlander 28mm Ultron, or the 21mm - this will make your shots look different and increase your versatility. And you will have $500 or more left over to buy a film scanner. If you don't want lenses then I think you should get the scanner and a good photo inkjet printer.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), May 30, 2002.

After all of your great responses, I thought about it some more. I even received an email from George Ury, who has two 'users', one at $695 & one at $650. Neither hd been CLA'd recently. I think I will go digital. Most likely the Canon PowerShot A40. That plus a scanner, perhaps. I think this camera will serve MY needs well. I will still have the 35's for 'serious' work. Maybe another Voiglander wide angle lens down the short road. I do know that if I walked into a camera shop and picked up an M3 and fondled it, the digital idea would go out the window. With the Canon, I will just have to be carefull not to drop it. Actually, in over 30 years of photography, I have dropped a camera twice. I wish I had LOTS of money - that way I'd get both. I also thought of trading the M4-2 for something. It has been overhauled by Don Goldberg two years ago. New focusing screens and new shutter curtains. Don did a nice job and he is nice to talk to. John

-- John H Osterholm (Barjo4@attbi.com), May 30, 2002.