How far is the biblical code and hidden messages in it true ? What stand does the Catholic Church has on it ? Is it some thing acceptable by the Church or some thing heresy ?

God Bless

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 29, 2002

Answers

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-- @@ (.....@........), May 29, 2002.

Are we talking about that finding of prophecies in the Hebrew Version of the Old Testament? Such as finding "95", "rsk", "Rabin", and "Amir" in proximity, as prophecy of Yigal Amir assassinating Yitzak Rabin in November 1995? I came across the book in the local library--in the theology section, browsed through it, and found it seriously wanting by scholarly standards. I'm not aware of any magisterial statements concerning it; AFAIK no bishop or synod ever referred to the alleged code or its implications, so basically we're free to believe in the prophecies or not. But do we need these? Isn't there so much in the Lord's words, even without predicting single events in our days? Plus, there are a few difficulties from a scholarly POV:

We have several versions of the Hebrew Text. Which one shall we choose?

Do we use matres lectionis? If so, do we count them in?

Hebrew assigns numerical values to certain letters. (E.g aleph = 1, bet = 2, etc.). Under which conditions are we to understand a letter as a number?

Can we read the text "backwards", i.e. from left to right, to find a word? Only downwards, or upwards too? Diagonally--which directions?

Must we assign the same line length to the entire text, or can we vary according to our needs?

Abstract: if you juggle a text that has no vowels for plenty of time, you can find anything in it. It's like 'monkeys + typewriters + lots of time = Shakespeare'. While I understand that some people would love to make sure the Bible contains just about anything, I have a gut feeling that reading hidden messages into His word isn't compatible at all with the reverence we should show to it due to its 'author'.

-- -- (unknown@a.nonymous), May 29, 2002.

Hi Xavier.

I've been following the Bible code thing for a while and have come to the conclusion that it is bogus. You can find whatever you want to find with it... if you are purposely looking for a false statement, it can be found, which is my basis for calling it bogus.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 29, 2002.

As "hidden Bible Code" (as well as any hidden code) can only really be discerned after the event that it "prophesied" has passed, it goes without saying that it really does nothing to try and "crack" the code. Only God knows the future, and if He wants us or anyone to know the future, He won't "hide" it like a game.

My mom once told me (and I think that it was very insightful) that the Bible is the "Living Word". And therefor it cannot and should not be read like any other text. In that you read the Bible and take in text and wording that you may not understand. Yet, as it is "Living" inside you, this "Word" will reveal itself when God wants. For instance, if something happens to you during the day, and when you read from the Bible, there your answer lies. Or if you read the Bible and don't understand something, but days or months or years later the meaning is revealed to you through an event in your life. This is what is meant by the Bible as the Living Word. Any "Hidden Messages" will surely be revealed and understood by those who God wishes to understand, and attempting to understand does no good without the Power of the Most High. Thus, first and foremost put your faith in God - and if it is His will this Code may be deciphered.

In Christ.

-- Jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 29, 2002.

Right Jake, I thought of that after I posted, also, that it is not much good as a prophecy thingy, because you need the key words to insert... and how do you know the keys words before something happens? How would anyone have known to have put "WTC" or "Sept. 11" into the equation?

But at any rate I think it doesn't work. Kathleen Keating comes to the conclusion that Bayside is authentic using the Bible Codes. That's damning enough right there.

Want to know the future? Read history. Best prophecy around.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 29, 2002.

Of interest to myself due to having been born Jewish is the releasing of Cabbilist writings after the second world war. The fear was these mystical writings of ancient times would be forever lost.

As to codes I personally do not believe there are codes.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 29, 2002.

Jean, Emerald, Jake and unknown anonymous,

Thank you all for your post.

Jean, are these Cabbilist writings classified as magical(black magic) writings or heresy ? Is it available on the internet (just to know what it is like) ? Peace & Blessings

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 30, 2002.

If they are not endorsed by the Church then they should be ignored. It only confuses the truths of the Traditions of the Church and Scripture.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 30, 2002.

Fred I appreciate your concern - my only responce is that there are more writings that are mystical then Catholic teachings. Remember always your religion is Jewish based as Christ was a Jew.

I have found in my travels so many Catholics do not know the OT as well as Protestants. This results in ignorance of a full delevelopment.

Cabbilist writings are beautiful with many themes of sharing and not hating along with full acknowledged dependance on God The Father. May have put Christ on a pedestal and have forgotten to focus on God The Father.

As mentioned before by myself Christ is my Mentor/Friend/Brother while The Father is my need as a child. Hope that helps Fred.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 31, 2002.

Example of Cabbilistic thought. - A child and a cow are travelling a very narrow mountain road. Ques: who will fall? Answer: the child as he/she been given free will therefore able to choose his path along with being aware of the danger which he may or may not be attracted to.

The cow withought free will has been given protection from the Father having been endowed with a deeper sense of self preservation. The cow will naturally not go forward if danger is sensed.

This is cabbilist.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 31, 2002.

Jean,

"Remember always your religion is Jewish based as Christ was a Jew." VERY TRUE.

Some years ago, I was one of them, who never paid heed to the OT. After knowing actually what it is, it has only made me understand the NT more better than before. Infact OT powerfully advocates the NT.

Christianity has its root in the Hebrews. Hence a Christian has to be a little bit of Hebrew to understand the deeper meaning of Christianity.

Peace & Blessings

PS : By being a little bit of hebrew, doesnt mean to convert to judaism and renouncing Christ, as some people often think.

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 31, 2002.

Jean

Who are yopu to make such a foolish statement as Catholics not reading the OT. The OT is the very base of the NT and it is used as the base for the beginning of virtually every Mass in the year, 365 times. You have been listening to too many protestants boasting of their theologies and they have been the ones through ignorance claiming the NT abolished the OT through Christ. Where in hell is your common catholic sense? In the rubbish bin?

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 31, 2002.

Jean

Nostradamus is a cabalist writer and his writings were banned for centuries by the Catholic Church.

Remember what Paul said 2,000 years ago tothe Greeks for making predictions based on false gods? And the Old Testament is also full of teachings about avoiding false Prophets. You have been just as guilty of this too. Much of your New Age theologies are in the same area. WAKE UP!

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 31, 2002.

Jean writes:

"Example of Cabbilistic thought. - A child and a cow are travelling a very narrow mountain road. Ques: who will fall? Answer: the child as he/she been given free will therefore able to choose his path along with being aware of the danger which he may or may not be attracted to.

The cow withought free will has been given protection from the Father having been endowed with a deeper sense of self preservation. The cow will naturally not go forward if danger is sensed.

This is cabbilist."

Jean, The sixties have come and gone. Say no to drugs! :-)

You may not believe I've correctly aligned my inner Chakras, but no matter. Do you really feel that this "wisdom" is worth the electrons that display it on your CRT?

Come on, Jean: you are glorifying a cow (sounds like Exodus after the flight from Egypt). And what did Moses say to those Jews? If you want to celebrate your Jewish background, I would recommend being on the side of Moses, not the calf.

Now regarding your silly post, animals do not have a "deeper sense of self preservation." If they did, there wouldn't be a food chain. You'll be surprised to find that lots of animals get eaten by other animals, despite their "superior" self-preservation. I'd also ask you to visit a slaughter house, and think about your story. We humans may have a different growth pattern than other animals (babies are pretty helpless when born), but we aren't the only species with helpless children.

I would tend to believe that your example is more in line with Gaea theology than "Cabbilist" theology.

Jean writes:

"I have found in my travels so many Catholics do not know the OT as well as Protestants. This results in ignorance of a full delevelopment."

I also agree with Fred, your survey that Protestants are more knowledgeable of the OT is probably false when moving from your "specific" experiences to "general" trends. Catholic primary and secondary schools, for example, have classes in the books of the Bible--quite different from public school instruction. Because Protestants are so diverse, it's hard to generalize. Further, when comparing Catholic/Protestant ministers, there is little doubt that priests receive a more thorough education of the Bible, Christian history, theology, psychology/counseling, and philosphy.

I don't know what your second sentence means...does this mean that you've found a Protestant church (institution or group of believers) that you believe holds a more complete truth than we "ignorant" Catholics?

Finally, if you value your Jewish ancestory, remember actions speak louder than words. I'd expect you to be referring to the Old Testament more, and referring to New Age theologians less. Maybe this is another "projection" situation--you ask others to value the OT more, because you feel that you should value it more.

My $0.02,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 31, 2002.

You people are funny for sure. The story of the cow and child is very VERY basic. Again your stuck in Institional/Patriarchal Modes. God Gave you brains so think. As a sign in a library says - Just don't sit there - Think!! " New age indeed.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 31, 2002.

Jean writes:

"As a sign in a library says - Just don't sit there - Think!!"

Jean, my public library has a sign that says, "Say no to drugs."

Jean writes:

"The story of the cow and child is very VERY basic. Again your stuck in Institional/Patriarchal Modes."

No, Jean: it's just that your story about children falling off a cliff is meaningless; unless you're a believer in Gaea or an Animalist. In that case, I'm sure it makes perfect sense. :-)

It's pretty funny that you've got to attack me as being too "Patriarchal." Jean, what do you think Judaism and the Old Testament are? Do you think they aren't Patriarchal according to your New Age perspective? Hahaha!

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), June 01, 2002.

It seems to me that "reasoning together" is an antiquity of the past. Why is it that we seem to take our own personal truths and force them on others. Honestly, who can speak for the Ultimate Truth? Everything we say and do is based off of our own ideals or the ideals of others. Just in case you all don't know.... "we are all born students and will die students... you'll never know as much as you think you know." So instead of offending one another, try to to look at the facts and understand one another. In my studies,If the Torah says something the New Testament only confirms it. As for the Catholic church, someone is sleeping in this arena. We need to stand for truth and not for what organization we belong to. Just because something is justified by Catholicism, doesn't make it truth! The bible says "as a child you think and do as a child, but as a man you put aside your childish ways." It's time for us to start defining ourselves by who and what we really are, not by the sect we belong to. I'll leave you with one more thing....Why argue a point you can not prove or even meant for you to prove? We are all in this learning process called "Life" and no one man is a scholar in this process. May peace & love be given to you, and given abundantly. Your brother in the search for truth.

-- Marlon Jones (marlon_jones@hotmail.com), July 13, 2002.

Marlon,
We believe Jesus Christ was our Saviour. He is also our Master; the One who stated unequivocally, ''I am the Way and the Truth and the Life.''

If we are to be true to our faith in Him, we can no longer hope to find wisdom from other sources. Your impression seems to be, all avenues are open to us in the never-ending search for truth. Because truth is not an absloutee for you.

But Christ clearly said, I am the Truth. We need no search, He is revealed to mankind as the eternal truth.

He made the rules for evangelizing the world, not some group of zealots. He sent forth His apostles, and commissioned them to preach the Truth. They comprised the infant Church, and according to God's plan, His divine Will, the Catholic Church came down through history and lives to continue the work of the apostles. Faith in Christ, therefore, means partaking in the communion of His Church and saints. There is no room for additional truths. You may want to die a student. It's your perfect right to do so. But our faith is in Christ. We need just His love and His teachings, and the Church preaches them. I mean to say, your words: ''Just because something is justified by Catholicism, doesn't make it truth!'' are tantamount to rejection of Jesus Christ. Christ works through His Holy Church.

-- eugenec. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 14, 2002.

Brother Chavez,

I never said Jesus wasn't the Truth. I believe you have misunderstood me. As for dying a student...there is nothing wrong with that. It means you're making progress. If you can tell me you will die a teacher in the subject of life, the truth isn't in you. I believe I've offended you because of what I said about your organization. I respect your decision to follow, but please don't reject me because I decide to let the Holy Spirit lead me. In my opinion, through my studies God says your body is his temple, and if he dwells there what other temple do you need? I believe there was an attempt to set up a church(organization) for the followers of Christ, but as we all know man becomes vain and tends to destroy the very blessing God gives us. In these times, so many churches contradict the very thing Christ stood for. He had his worst words to say to the scribes and pharisees then, and I believe he'll have his worst words saved for preachers and the priests in the future. For whatever reason, we tend to believe that we need a mediator(priest or preacher)to confess our sins to, but Christ died my brother so you can go to him yourself and ask what you will. So I disagree with you about the Catholic church being the Holy Church,for John said true religion is the man who visits the elderly,the widow,the sick,the poor......in other words......LOVE. Last be not least, no man can forgive sins and God has never given that right to any man! In the days of Christ, any man making this claim would be stoned to death. Your brother in the search for truth.

-- Marlon Jones (marlon_jones@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

Marlon,
Trust in God completely; He will bring you back to the Church of your blessed ancestors. You now believe she was never intended for you. Your ancestors lived as good Catholics and some suffered holy martyrdom testifying to the truth. No one ever died a martyr for that ''church'' in his own BODY. ''In my opinion, through my studies God says your body is His temple, and if He dwells there what other temple do you need?'' are *your words* --a fatal mistake. For Jesus Christ instructed His holy apostles: ''If he will not hear the Church, then let him be to you as the heathen and the publican.''

Your pilgrimage is under way. As I've recommended, place your trust in God. He wants you to find the truth and you will. Please remember this, however; your opinion is not what counts. Many have held perverse opinions; just consider Osama bin Laden and Louis Farrakhan. They have good opinions of themselves.

As for your ''studies'', please forgive me; but they are infantile compared to the studies of great thinkers of the Catholic faith.

Read the works of John Henry Cardinal Newman; of G. K. Chesterton, and Saint Therese of Lisieux. Of John Paul II-- who has been a great writer and professor as well as the Pope of our Church. This is your own heritage, Marlon. You are a Catholic. Stay in our forum, and you'll soon see why I'm telling you this.

God be with you, bless you and keep you from all misfortunes and trials.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 19, 2002.

Chavez,

My brother,I have two questions for you. If the word has been given to you and written down for your spiritual nourishment, why do you need someone to feed it to you? Truly if you ask Jesus for understanding how much more will he give you verses the next man that seeks his truth?

-- Marlon Jones (marlon_jones@hotmail.com), July 19, 2002.

Marlon,

I respect the fact that you believe you find the truth in the Bible, but how come YOU have a Bible to read? Did laymen who were following the Spirit like you are painfully copy it by hand until the printing press was invented, or did the Catholic monks and priests? If you really believe that there is truth in the Bible you should acknowledge your debt to the church. After that, consider this: The church has been performing the same basic ceremony since the time of Christ. If you don't, why aren't you? Do you really believe you are getting closer to Christ by NOT doing what He commanded us to than by following Him?

Frank

-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), July 20, 2002.

Chavez,

WOW!!! It's hard to believe you can say "God bless you", and yet with the same tongue,offend me by comparing me to the likes of Osama Bin Laden and Louis Farrahkan. Then on top of that you call me infantile. It seems your logic and reasoning is built on offensive rhetoric.You say, "No one ever died a martyr for that ''church'' in his own BODY".......I thought you said you knew Jesus. He was the Pioneer. To give up your life for his sake is to gain life! Think about that. I'm really not writing to debate you. If it sounds like it I apologize. Brother I'm a Christian, and if I stand and die for anything it'll be for Christ! Not for Catholic, Baptist, Pentacostal,Methodist, or any other forum that claims they are the "true" church. I'll leave you with this. Since it seems we're not humble enough to try to understand one another....I'm going to bow out of this conversation and humble myself before you. I wish you well and I wish you love.

-- Marlon Jones (marlon_jones@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.

Marlon writes:

"Brother I'm a Christian, and if I stand and die for anything it'll be for Christ! Not for Catholic, Baptist, Pentacostal,Methodist, or any other forum that claims they are the "true" church."

Here Marlon's got a problem. Either:

1) Christ lied, He didn't found a Church as he promised; or,

2) Christ created a church that has no clear definition. It's all inside Marlon's head. I guess Marlon gets to decide who a "true" Christian is and what a "true" Christian believes.

Oh dear...

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 20, 2002.

some humorous "Marlonisms"

"Just in case you all don't know....'we are all born students and will die students... you'll never know as much as you think you know.'"

Is Marlon our teacher? How much can he really "know" about this subject? Does he know as much as he thinks he knows?

"We need to stand for truth and not for what organization we belong to. Just because something is justified by Catholicism, doesn't make it truth! The bible says..."

I tell you what, how about if we all stand for the organization that was inspired by the Holy Spirit to compile the books of the Bible. Hello, Catholic Church, still inspired by the Holy Spirit...

Marlon, unless you read/write ancient Hebrew, Greek, Aramaic, and Latin, I suggest that you may need some help understanding the message of the Bible. Even then, I hope you understand all of the cultural references that are made throughout the Bible. Based on your name, I'll assume that you understand the parables regarding fishing.

"Just because something is justified by Catholicism, doesn't make it truth!"

The Catholic Church declared that the words of the Bible were inerrantly inspired by God. You don't seem to have too much trouble with this Catholic doctrine. The Bible certainly didn't make the claim--it couldn't, the New Testament hadn't been written!

"I'll leave you with one more thing....Why argue a point you can not prove or even meant for you to prove?"

Are you arguing a point? What are you trying to prove?

"We are all in this learning process called "Life" and no one man is a scholar in this process."

Huh? This sounds a bit defeatist...

OK, my head is beginning to hurt. :^)

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 20, 2002.

Marlon will stand for Christ, he thinks. Christ sent His holy apostles forth to all nations. They had the mission directly from Him; not from an ''organisation''. But the Church-- ''our organisation'', comes down through 2,000 years from the apostles. That makes the ''organisation'' Christ's Church indeed! How is our friend Marlon ''standing'' for Christ, if the Church is rejected? --Truly then, he will be counted the same as the ''heathen and the publican''. Those are the very words of Jesus, in the gospels.

Marlon says he studys the Word. The Word says he is a heathen and a publican, because he will not hear the Church.

I haven't said so; the Word says it. What I've said to you, Marlon, is-- ''Your pilgrimage is under way. You are returning to the Church of your blessed ancestors.''

If it seems my blessing was unChristian after comparing you to Osama bin Laden and Louis Farrakhan, you're assuming the worst. I merely stated they had self- serving opinions, just as you have. Didn't you say, very proudly: ''In my OPINION, through MY STUDIES God says your body is his temple, and if he dwells there what other temple do you need? --I BELIEVE there was an attempt to set up a church (organization) for the followers of Christ, but as WE ALL KNOW-- ''

This is setting up the private opinion of a MAN; versus the teachings of the Apostles and Christ. Opinions are only sound if they prove true. That's why I said JESUS IS THE TRUTH.

You opened by saying, ''We ''search'' our whole lives for truth, and, --why is it that we seem to take our own personal truths and ''force'' them on others? Honestly, who can speak for the Ultimate Truth?''

The truth is in Christ; you've seen fit to tell us Christ did NOT reveal the absolute truth to His apostles, and from there to His Church. It makes you stand, not with Christ, but AGAINST Him.

Your own words betray your lack of faith, Marlon. But you've come to the right place. You're welcome here; come and see the whole truth. We'll try to explain it all to you. But give up your pride. Pride goeth before a fall.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 20, 2002.

Mateo,

Guy you are definately cut from a different fabric! If you spent more time loving than you do mocking, you would probably make an ok individual. Like the word says...."you can tell the tree by the fruit it bears!" and I'm sorry to say but I feel more animosity from you than anything. Yet you and your friend want to call me a heathen. If you can't believe what I'm saying let's reflect on your mockery......."Jean, The sixties have come and gone. Say no to drugs! :-)",...."Do you really feel that this "wisdom" is worth the electrons that display it on your CRT?",..."Now regarding your silly post",..."I guess Marlon gets to decide who a "true" Christian is and what a "true" Christian believes.",..."Is Marlon our teacher? How much can he really "know" about this subject? Does he know as much as he thinks he knows?",..."Based on your name, I'll assume that you understand the parables regarding fishing."! These are only to list a few. As for the "fishing" joke, if you were as well-read as you seem to be you would know that the fish you speak of is the MARLIN. Hence the correct spelling!

You guys actually make a nice tag team, but you're not effective! All you've done was mocked me, and that's perfectly fine. It would seem that the problem is within yourself. I don't know whether or not you feel you're inadequate in your studies, but don't hate me for what I stand for. Maybe if you would tone down the convictions of your tongue, you could learn to hear instead of insulting. Just for the record, just because someone interpreted the scrolls, it doesn't make it their words! Learn to live and live to love.

-- Marlon Jones (Marlon_Jones@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.

Marlon writes:

"you would know that the fish you speak of is the MARLIN. Hence the correct spelling!"

Marlon, they are called homonyms. Get it? To think, people tell me I don't have a sense of humor...

Marlon writes:

"...but don't hate me for what I stand for..."

Don't hate me because I'm beautiful...isn't that how the shampoo commercial goes? Oh, boy. Marlon, you don't stand for anything! You stand for an imaginary psuedo-Jesus that couldn't even found a real Church, other than the one in your head. You and your false Jesus is spoken of in the New Testament:

"2 Peter 2:1 - But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you, who will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

Matthew 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect."

You, Marlon are a false teacher, carrying the banner of a false Jesus. If you weren't such a defeatist, you would "probably make an ok individual." I'm practicing Marlonese.

Marlon writes:

"Guy you are definately cut from a different fabric!"

The fabric is called Christianity, Marlon.

Marlon writes:

"If you can't believe what I'm saying let's reflect on your mockery.......""

Give me a break, Marlon. Get over it. If you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen. If you've been saving up all of my light-hearted comments to make your case, I really feel sorry for you. I would imagine that you'd denounce Jesus Himself when he said (in no uncertain terms) to Peter:

Matthew 16:23 - "Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me; for you are not on the side of God, but of men." "

Where's the "Christian compassion," you ask? Sometimes, we Christians are called on to imitate Jesus' directness as we dispel un-Christian statements.

Most of the things that you have posted above are a "hindrance" to Jesus. You have a defeatist view, with a sentimentalist flavor that appeals to men; but certainly not God. Maybe this is why some Protestant sects are so popular: they appeal to man instead of God. Next thing you'll say is that you reject all denominations and belong to a "non-denominational" church--what an oxymoron!

Your defeatism is the burden that you'll have to struggle with. I pray that God gives you the strength to renounce these anti-Christian beliefs that you have posted. Rest assured, as long as you fight against Christ here, I'll be here to counter those posts. Please, though: take it easy on the New Age, feel-good philosophy; I can only handle so much at one time. :-)

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 20, 2002.

Dear Marlon:
You aren't conversing in an intellectually honest way. Now that you've realised that you bit off more than you can chew, you're crying foul, because you were ''mocked''. But you came to this forum to belittle our faith. Who pursued you, to mock you, before you entered the lists?

Why call me and Mateo a ''tag team''--??? Because we shut your water off? ONLY, because you got your clock cleaned, no one here can be an OK guy. Very self-serving; and remember, I didn't call you a heathen. The Word says you are, since you will not hear the Church. You claim to be a believer in the WORD. Don't blame others if you dispute with the Word of God.

My posts to you were in perfect respectful order. I never mocked you. You can't answer my points, so you run for cover, claiming there's no ''love'' here. If you'd been able to rebut me, or any others, the ''love'' wouldn't matter. But, there it is. You either win, or you take your ball and go home.

Mateo, your posts were effective and more. Marlon can't stand the heat. While I myself invited him to remain, and to let himself discover the truth, you let him see himself in the mirror. Now he'll always reject the truth. Because it wasn't flattering to him. That's why he says it wasn't ''effective''.

God have mercy on Marlon. He doesn't want to be a Catholic. No one can force him; and he rejects the grace of God. Let's pray for him.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 20, 2002.

Hi Marlon

Just one question for you sir. You posts sound very familiar. Have you ever posted in this Catholic forum with another name? :-)

David

-- David (David@excite.com), July 20, 2002.

Mateo,

You actually feel that you are countering anti-Christian beliefs! I don't really believe you even know what Christianity means. Talk about self contradiction. You being cut from the fabric of Christianity is as doubtful as the sesame street logic that you tend to spew out over the internet. As for your sense of humor, is it truly possible to shoot someone, put a bandaid over it, and then expect fun and games? In case you didn't know, Jesus' yolk was easy, you have no yolk. If you don't understand then put down your self- righteousness and hear! Then you have the nerve to say your light- hearted comments! Amazing! As for being direct, there is a difference in being direct and being blatantly rude...you are definitely the latter! You even go on to question my relationship with God by saying I don't stand for Jesus. You have the spirit of the scribes and pharisees. You are not warriors for Christ, you and your friend are harlots for the catholic church. You take the word of God out of context and use it for your selfish purposes. When you're old enough to partake of God's word and stop being spoon fed by some man claiming to be the Vicar to the Son of God, then lets talk. Until this happens, I'm through with you and your religous irrelavance that you so ignorantly try to afflict me with. One more thing before I wipe my hands of you. You speak of defeatism as if you know it well...I'm sorry but I don't know defeat because my Father in Heaven has put a winning spirit inside of me. You say you're going to pray for me, well when you pray make sure you're praying to The True God and not Mary or the other countless idols you like to worship. By the way, this is very entertaining. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't even waste my time. I hope you find The Way, and not your way.

-- Marlon Jones (marlon_jones@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.

David,

No sir I haven't posted in this forum before under a different name and today will be the last day.

-- Marlon Jones (marlon_jones@hotmail.com), July 20, 2002.

The clear face of hatred for the Catholic Church is no longer masked. Marlon came here in sheep's clothing. His final entry shows he was a wolf from the start.

Goodby and good riddance then, ''follower of Christ''. You recited wonderfull words about love. But you love the darkness, not your neighbor. We wanted to be your brethren; but you hate Catholics. I'm not surprised, we've met many others like you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 20, 2002.

Marlon writes:

"As for your sense of humor, is it truly possible to shoot someone, put a bandaid over it, and then expect fun and games?"

Let me get out my violin...oh, the tragedy!

Marlon writes:

"In case you didn't know, Jesus' yolk was easy, you have no yolk. If you don't understand then put down your self- righteousness and hear!"

I have no yolk? Would you care to talk more about Jesus' "yolk"?

I assume that you are referring to:

"Matthew 11:30 - For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light." "

It's yoke, not yolk. Now that's egg on your face.

Now, Marlon. You've got to admit: I'm a pretty funny guy... :-)

Marlon writes:

"By the way, this is very entertaining."

You can say that again.

It's always fun to see a novice Evangelical Protestant come in here trying to convert us "dumb Catholics," only to walk away with his tail between his legs.

Enjoy,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), July 22, 2002.

Marlon makes retreat sound like victory, doesn't he? ''I have a winning spirit inside of me; just don't ask me to stand my ground. It's not worth it.''

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), July 22, 2002.

It's amazing how people can believe in a Hidden code in the bible but not God himself.

The only things he has found are events in the past.. Nothing which is going to happen.. How can we discover if his theory is correct? Are we supposed to just have faith in this man and what he has discovered? Or should we just class it as a mere coincidence?

The bible is full of hidden messages. None of which this man has revealed. Look deeper. Every word, sentence, paragraph and page has a meaning.. But it's different for every person.. He never choses one person he chooses us all, thats why the meaning of the bible and its messages will be different for everyone.

-- unknown (wogasm@hotmail.com), October 17, 2003.

>>> the meaning of the bible and its messages?

No, it can't mean anything if it means many things. One meaning is true. All others wannabee.

-- eugene c. chavez (loschavez@pacbell.net), October 17, 2003.

Most verses/passages (though not all) can have two or more meanings (senses), both/all accepted by the Church, without mutually contradicting each other.

The Catechism says, "115. "According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral, and anagogical senses. The profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church."

But "Unknown/wogasm" was mistaken to say that the meanings are "different for every person."

-- (Making@Senses.OutOfScripture), October 17, 2003.

The system used in the Bible Code for deciphering hidden words or phrases can be used to decipher hidden words or phrases in this very forum's writings/posts. You just have to keep digging until you find what you need. It has been done with Shakespear; it can be done with any document. So, the Bible Code is just some weird phenomenon, which has nothing to do with God speaking to us, but man playing around with word games. The Scriptures do have hidden meanings or messages, but they can all be revealed by the Holy Spirit to the faithful.

rod

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), October 17, 2003.