This is a personal opinion, and in no way reflects the opinion of anyone on this forum, or this forum itself. I feel that it is bad taste, extremely rude, and inappropriate to list or discuss cameras other than Leica, on THIS forum. A Nikon or Canon (as wonderful as they may seem to their devotees) are in no way, remotely related to Leica. I know that Nikon has a number of sites for those devoted to Nikon. I don't know that much about Canon and others, but I'm sure they do too. So, for instance, if someone asks what your favorite lens is, and it isn't a Leica, then consider that this question is not for you. If you look closely, you will see that only paparazzi (poopy) use those types of cameras anyway, and never Leicas. I like to think of the Leica Forum as a place for Leica Photographers.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002

Answers

My guess is that most members of the forum use not only Leicas or other cameras. I consider it quite appropriate to compare Leicas with others in regard to specific tasks. I use one of my Leicas about 80% of the time, but I also have a Canon EOS 1v, a Nikon N90s, and others. For me, and I believe, others as well, comparisons at times can be helpful. Why should this be considered impolite? If you're not interested, don't read it! Simple as that.

-- Jack Matlock (jfmatlo@attglobal.net), May 26, 2002.

Jack, to me, your mentality, is the same one that caused paparazzi to participate in the death of Princess Di, and take her picture as she lay dying. In the screw everyone else, I'm going to do what I want to do world, where courtesy, while not dead, is certainly dying, your answer is right on, brother.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

Good grief, Glenn. Lighten up!

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), May 26, 2002.

Cameras are just tools...I have three NIKKOR lens that were designed specifically for LEICA thread mount.....they are the 85mm, 105mm and 135mm...they work just great on my M3 with adapters....They have NO fogging or weird lens coating problems like the Leica lens of the early 1950's...These Nikkors have never required any cleaning or regreasing.....They are quality lenses that do not have Leicas fogging or coating problems.....Why is it rude to talk about quality??? ......Leica screwed up their coatings and grease in the early 1950's; but these Nikkors are clear and contasty; still after 50 years; and will work on a new M7 today...

Kelly

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), May 26, 2002.

Glenn--isn't "In the screw everyone else, I'm going to do what I want to do world, where courtesy, while not dead, is certainly dying, " almost exactly what you're doing in a backhanded way by insulting everyone who doesn't want to do it YOUR way in this instance?

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

Meanwhile, any discussion of the erstwhile Princess Di is verboten as well. Achtung! Let's keep this board to Leica only as the fuhrer would have it.

-- Erik (xx@xx.com), May 26, 2002.

With Dave all the way! My, Glenn, who's being rude and impolite now? And the mere mention of Princess Di in your second post is in such bad taste it's freaky. I don't think even «Phil what's his name» would go this low. (Well, come to think of it, now that I've mentioned it...sorry, people.) Anyway, Glenn, just breathe deeply through your nose, feel not only your lungs but your stomach fill with air, let it out slowly through your mouth. Do this ten times. It'll oxygenate your starving brain.

-- Olivier (olreiche@videotron.ca), May 26, 2002.

Glenn: Get out more! Lay down your fondling of the Leica equipment and pounding on the keyboard and get a wider perspective on things. Just some friendly advice.

-- Jon Doe (anon@anonymous.com), May 26, 2002.

Kelly, I certainly don't mean to imply that LTM's: Nikon , Canon, Russian, Zeiss, and all other lenses or equipment that are compapable or at least similar (Voigtlander?) to Leica RF/ aren't a delightful source for discussion and education. They most certainly are. But I am drawing the line when someone asks what you favorite lens is and why, and the reply is some modern AF SLR 28-200mm f/1.4, ED, IF, APO, IS, L. There are certainly other groups that are interested in discussing this. But I certainly am interested in hearing why someone would choose a thirty year old Nikon LTM over a modern Leica equivalent.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

C'mon Glenn, don't be such a hypocrite. And I quote him from a recent post: "BEEN THERE, DONE THAT. My challenge to you: is talk all you do? yak, yak, yak, yak! Maybe it more than $50, but it's well within the spirit of your challenge. VOITLANDER BESSA-L (well under $200), VOITLANDER HELIAR 15mm, 1:4.5, T-MAX 400 IN XTOL 1:1, POLAROID SPRINTSCAN 4000."

I don't think a Voightlander exactly qualifies as a Leica.

It seems that you too also talk about other cameras, so what are we to all make of this hulabaloo? Caught out? Not fun is it?

-- Hyatt Lee (shahmat@ms63.hinet.net), May 26, 2002.

Hey Olivier!

You solved my lifelong digestion problem. All of this time I thought that I was the only one who digested food in my lungs! If I could only stop urinating through my index fingers...or smelling through my elbows...

-- Henry (hrn_ral@miscjunk.co.uk), May 26, 2002.

I don't know about you Glenn, but I am interested in comparisons those with Leica experience can make with other brands and even other formats. It seems that is one of the benefits of this site, shared experienceand considered observation. What is wrong if that includes experiences of other makes of cameras? Most photographers who have ventured into Leica have made a substantial commitment in the purchase of equipment and have experience with several other camera makes; it only makes sense that this site includes these in comparison. Personally, I think this post is a troll, but if you really don't like a topic, then read something else. Why waste your time?

-- Chris Henry (henryjc@concentric.net), May 26, 2002.

Man I really like those Hasselblad MF cameras! Hmn...for scenics/landscape they gotta be tops.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

The irony of the whole situation ...... There has always been an eternal tug of war between photographic manufacturers to be a market leader. Witness the classic Leitz versus Zeiss situation however, behind the rivalry there is some mutual respect, friendship and indeed sharing of designs. Competion leads to better products. I would conclude that comparisons are relevant. Whether you want to participate in a forum comparison is up to you.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

Funny thread . . .!

I like to read about Leicas here but, in general, accept things the way they are: there are some other cameras out there, we use them too ourselves and occasional reference to other brands/gear makes no harm. And is even educational sometimes . . . But still I try to be faithful to the name of the site, of course.

I assume that getting involved in such a nonsensical discussion is a comsequence of the lack of photography

Regards

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie), May 26, 2002.

If I just wanted technical Leica information, I'd just call Leica New Jersey every time I needed to know something about their products. To me, this discussion board (and others like it), are a source of community along with being a photographic knowledge database. We all talk about Leica 90% of the time around here. But other stuff is bound to creep in. Like the fact that my FAVORITE lens isn't a leica.

-- Josh Root (rootj@att.net), May 26, 2002.

Since I seemed to have broken my own rule more than anyone else, I will conceed defeat, and retire from the battlefield. But be warned, I shall return! And pray tell Josh, what IS your favorite lens?

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

If the question is "what one lens would you keep? and the answer isn't a Leica lens, what do you EXPECT people to say? Lie and name a Leica lens? Get a life, doofuss.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

That would be a Canon 50mm 1.4 ef lens. It takes pictures my Leica can't. Just like my 50mm Summilux takes ones the former can't even come close to. Sorry - but this thread exudes the same kind of drunkeness I see here from time to time that I just can't stand.

Can't we all just get along?

-- P. McEnroe (elcaptain88@yahoo.com), May 26, 2002.

Yah...I think some us are just reallllllllllllllllllllly bored. *yawn* *stretch* *lipsmacking* ZzzzZZZzz

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

Okay, Henry, I didn't think I'd have to explain this, but, for the benefit of the «metaphor challenged» here goes: feeling your stomach fill with air IS a metaphor, used to mean that one should expand his abdomen as far out as possible, using his lower ribs' muscles while breathing in, in order to lower the diaphragm and fill the lungs all the way to the very bottom. It's a technique all musicians and actors use, among others. As for urinating through your index fingers and smelling through your elbows, my advice to you is get a good physician ASAP. Take care. :-)

-- Olivier (olreiche@videotron.ca), May 26, 2002.

How dare you say the words Canon and Nikon in your post - you hypocrite :-)

If the leica forum is a place for leica photographers, who are the people that shoot both leicas and other brands... are they no longer leica photographers? In other words, if i play the drums in a band i am still a drummer even though i like to pick up the guitar from time to time. If somebody asks me what instrument they should use to play like Jimi Hendrix, i'm not going to tell them to use the drums just because i am a drummer... i'm also not going to not answer simply because it is foolish for this person to ask me - a drummer - this question. If i know the answer i will give it to them. If somebody comes along on this forum and asks what lenses are best for wildlife photography, i am going to point them in the direction of AF SLR's, because that is what is good/best for that type of stuff... anybody who is serious about wildlife photography and thinks a leica M is just as good is seriously deluding themselves.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), May 26, 2002.

My favorite lens? The one in my eyeballs.

-- Josh Root (rootj@worldnet.att.net), May 26, 2002.

Leica lenses have wonderful characteristics and I intend to mount one of them on a new Bessa R2. I think that it may suit my purposes better than the M6 [framing accuracy] and, perhaps, prove more reliable. My NIKON FM3A with the 45mm P lens is also a very fine kit and I don't expect to have to spend $300 or so to have it CLA'd anytime soon [the next ten years].

-- John (mymacv@aol.com), May 26, 2002.

Glenn, I believe I said my favourite lens is the Elmar 50/2.8 in my thread. Did you miss that? ;)

-- Lux (leica@sumicron.com), May 26, 2002.

Glenn,

I think the discussion of non-Leica gear in this forum may sometimes be appropriate if the context invites it, such as a question like: "What SLR/P&S cameras do Leica M users recommend?" Otherwise, I agree with you that gratuitous intrusions about non-Leica cameras/lenses is inappropriate and undesirable. I wouldn't call it extremely rude, though!

What used to irritate me no end, in the photo.net discussion forum, was if someone posted a question about Leica and was told that (s)he would be better off with a Nikon or Canon, some even suggesting a different format altogether, ranging from Minox 8 x 11 to LF: unhelpful and simply a case of someone airing his/her prejudices. Now, if you want to see posts in bad taste that are extremely rude, photo.net has much to offer. ;-)

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 27, 2002.

If it is not allowed to compare your Leica lens with that of a different brand, how do you now that the Leica is superior? Just because it has the biggest myth hanging around it?

I really like my Hasselblad s-planar 120mm T*. A well exposed 6x6 slide/negative will always knock a 35mm slide of the same subject dead.

Frank

-- Frank (frank_bunnik@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.

Hmm.... Glenn has been ostracized and kicked out of every photography forum I've ever seen his name show up in. He get's fanatical, judgemental, holier-than-thou and downright nasty if people disagree with him or don't share his opinions. After a while he ticks people off to the point where they simply ignore him or put him down at every opportunity.

I was wondering how long it would take for him to show his true colors here.

-- Taggert (tgif@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.

Taggert:

Excuse me but I much prefer to draw my own conclusions regarding people. I sincerely don't intend to be rude to you but I'm sorry I can't feel that your opinion on this person helps the Forum in any way.

We have had our share of personal battles here already. What to start it all over again for . . .?

I'm not the one to defend Glenn, of course. I'm just trying to avoid OT boring, anoying, endless threads like the ones we suffered recently and I trust you can consider this post in that limited context and not addressed against you personally in any way, right?

Regards

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), May 27, 2002.

Ivan, Go over to rec.photo.equipment.35mm and have a look at the Leicaddict Poll.

-- John (mymacv@aol.com), May 27, 2002.

Glenn, you're misunderstanding the charter of this forum. Your vision, I'm afraid, would render our forum pretty dull and lifeless! I would say that a bunch of Leica photographers should be able to use and compare other types of equipment and then talk about their experiences. Practical, polite comparison between Leica products and other makers' products can be interesting with regards to the usability, functionality, and performance of differing products. Discussion of other brands is often welcome here as long as the majority of ones posts are about Leica and there is some link to Leica, or the Leica "style" of photography. The general focus should be the pursuit of great photography by Leica photographers.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), May 27, 2002.

Thanks, John. I would but couldn't find the site. Would you mind to post the complete address if you are still there, please . . .

-Iván

-- Iván Barrientos M (ingenieria@simltda.tie.cl), May 27, 2002.

Lux - I did see that you said the one lens you would keep was the Elmar-M. As you may, or may not know, this lens is indeed my favorite, and has proved itself to me many times over for the quality of images it produces.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.

Ivan, I wouldn't expect you to take me at my word... here are just a few quotes from rec.photo.equipment.35mm from Glenn Travis. All direct quotes taken from the news group and these are only in the last week or so. There have been much worse, I assure you.

"I really have no interest in you and your sick, filthy, perverted, pedophile mind. You're obviously hetro-phobic. You should be ashamed of yourself, and seek professional help"

"Believe me, I want some little masturbator like you to ignore me. You're just to sticky"

"Well gee whiz! I know, back in your day, when it was all technique, didn't have no damn e-mail to worry about. Just settled it in the parking lot with clubs, like real men."

"Tell me, are poor little Cappy's feelings hurtie, hurtie. Well the big badass Leicaddict is VERY sorry, apologizes profusely, and won't let it happen to poor little Cappy Wappy again. Poor little Dude Bear."

-- Taggert (tgif@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Taggert, who are you anyway? You sem to be a newcomer who has contributed only two posts to this forum, both dedicated to trashing Glenn Travis. I don't know whether what you say is true or not, and I have no feelings either way, frankly, but what's the agenda here?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 28, 2002.

Who am I? Just someone who doesn't want to see this discussion group go sour because of a select few individuals who push their views on others an belittle other people's opinions simply because they are not the same as their own.

It's starts off small, and then escalates to the kind of comments that I've quoted above.

I don't have an "agenda", other than to help keep this group a place where people can voice an opinion and seek advice without being made to feel stupid or inferior and without elevating Leica owners to some sort of icon status.

My point is that Glenn Travis can't seem to make his point without somehow denegrating someone else. I don't like it. I'm sure others don't like it. And I just want to call attention to the matter.

-- Taggert (tgif@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

The worst thing than being talked about, is not being talked about. At first I was puzzled, then it came to me, I have my own internet Groupies. Pathethic though they might be, they're still Groupies. The question now becomes, are Groupies required to have a Leica to post on the Forum? I'd say no, as long as their Idol has a Leica, but others may disagree. I have a Leitz M6, Elmar-M 50mm 1:2.8, B+W KR1.5 MRC, Fuji Sensia II 200, Polaroid SprintScan 4000:

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Nice shot, Glenn, though I could have done it better with my 35mm PC- Nikkor.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), May 28, 2002.

I'd argue that the only thing pathetic here are the photos that you post on the net that have no focal point, no interest, no compelling reason to have been made, and yet still you feel that your skills and artistic insight are somehow superior because they were shot with Leica equipment. A technician with an over inflated ego.

-- Taggert (tigf@hotmail.com), May 29, 2002.

Everyone relax. Breath deeply. Take another Prozac.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), May 29, 2002.

I am surprised to see more than 40 answers on a commnet/question this one. By the way, I like my canon EOS, canon EOS, canon EOS, canon EOS, canon EOS,canon EOS,... too!! :) Arie

-- Arie (arie_haziza@ey.bm), May 29, 2002.

Actually Bob, doesn't it depends on exactly what it is that you think you'll do better? I believe that there are two type of images, one is a picture that attempts to depict a technically perfect representation of reality, and one is a photograph that attempts to depict how one sees reality. If what you are interested in is a technically perfect reality, then yes, not only is any other shooter better than me and probably also you, but almost any other camera, 35mm or otherwise is better than a Leica RF. If all we're interested in is a technically perfect representation of reality, when why even shot at all? I shoot with what is fast becoming a twenty year old camera, with a lens that the vast majority of Leica users turn their nose up at. Why, because I'm not interested in a technical representation of reality, only in my reality and showing it as best I can, with all that implies, warts and all. The Leitz M6 and Elmar-M allow me to represent that reality in image form. When I look at the vast majority of images I've made with my Leitz M6 and Elmar-M, I say to myself, yes that's what I saw, that's what I experienced, and what I'm trying to depict. This particular image has to do with the street signs, the little critroen, the green lorry, the bassier, the time of day, the low angle of the light, and the way it illuminates the scene. I stood there for twenty minutes waiting for the damn lorry to pull into position. This is the reality of that scene in space and time as I saw it, and as my Leitz M6 and Elmar-M translated it. If you like it, find, if you don't, as some will, then that's find too. It really doesn't matter to me since I have no control over others, only of myself. I thinks it's very dificult for people to let go and not try to replicate a representation of a technically perfect reality as their highest goal. After all, isn't that what modern photography is all about? My horizontals are more horizontal than yours, or my verticals are more vertical than yours, or my lens can resolve more lines than yours, or shoot more frames per second, or whatever it is that you feel you can more technically provide that someone else (or I) can't, that will allow you to get closer to a more technically perfect reality. Your opinion isn't going to stop me from being excited at Leica Photography, or trying to get even closer to my own reality, in fact, I'm not even going to brake stride! Leitz M6, Elmar-M 50mm 1:2.8, B+W KR1.5 MRC, Fuji Sensia II 200, Polaroid SprintScan 4000:

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 29, 2002.