Kansas State Senate

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I wish this was a prayer in all the christian world parliaments.

This is an interesting prayer given in KANSAS at the opening session of their Senate. It seems prayer still upsets some people. When Minister Joe Wright was asked to open the new session of the KANSAS SENATE, everyone was expecting the usual generalities, but this is what they heard:

Heavenly Father, we come before you today to ask your forgiveness and to seek your direction and guidance. We know Your Word says, "Woe to those who call evil good," but that is exactly what we have done. We have lost our spiritual equilibrium and reversed our values.

We confess that We have ridiculed the absolute truth of Your Word and called it Pluralism.

We have exploited the poor and called it the Lottery.

We have rewarded laziness and called it welfare.

We have killed our unborn and called it choice.

We have shot abortionists and called it justifiable.

We have neglected to discipline our children and called it building self-esteem.

We have abused power and called it politics.

We have coveted our neighbor's possessions and called it ambition.

We have polluted the air with profanity and pornography and called it freedom of speech.

We have ridiculed the time-honored values of our forefathers and called it enlightenment.

Search us, Oh, God, and know our hearts today; cleanse us from every sin and set us free. Guide and bless these men and women who have been sent to direct us to the center of Your will and to openly ask these things in the name of Your Son, the living Savior, Jesus Christ.

Amen.

The response was immediate. A number of legislators walked out during the prayer in protest. In 6 short weeks, Central Christian Church, where Reverend Wright is pastor, logged more than 5,000 phone calls with only 47 of those calls responding negatively. The church is now receiving international requests for copies of this prayer from India, Africa, and Korea.

Commentator Paul Harvey aired this prayer on his radio program "The Rest of the Story" and received a larger response to this program than any other he has ever aired. With the Lord's help, may this prayer sweep over our nation and wholeheartedly become our desire so that we again can be called, "One nation under God".

I was told that "If you forward this prayer to everyone on your email list, in less than 3 days it would be heard by the world" I thought it wise to forward this prayer at this forum.

Xavier

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 19, 2002

Answers

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-- @ (......@.......), May 19, 2002.

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-- @ (.......@.......), May 20, 2002.

Don't think they'll be inviting Rev. Wright back. I suppose that's what they get when they mix up church and state.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 20, 2002.

Ill be htting the delete button if it comes my way. Yeah the lottery is the cause of poverty, never mind slave wage rates and distribution of wealth, and the welfare state jeez helping the weakest members of society- what an awful concept. And the Church has never abused its power hmmm. Spare the rod spoil the child, oh no I thought child abuse would be off the agenda these days after recent events. The abortion stuff is fair enough the rest reads like Mein Kampf. No Thanks Xavier. God Bless.

ps wheres Mateo these days, I miss him (sob sob).

-- Courtenay (csiherwood@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.


Great prayer and SOOO TRUE!!

Believe it or not, I think Kansas is said to be the abortion state of the U.S. They have several abortion clinics that specialize in late term abortions. Women go in with a fully developed child in their womb and leave empty!

Courtenay, I think New Zealand is still a pretty moral socciety, isn't it? It seems from what my NZ friend says, it's pretty conservative. Morals in the country 'stink to high Heaven' literally!!

Chris, you got it backwards, the separation of church of state doctrines of this country were designed to keep the state out of the churches affairs, and this country will never have an 'official religion'

But under the First Amendment, Christians, as well as Moslims or any other faith CAN PRAY WHEREVER THE HECK THEY WANT TO!!!!!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 20, 2002.



Except in schools Gail.........so sad they can't do that anymore.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 20, 2002.

Courtenay, I think New Zealand is still a pretty moral socciety, isn't it?

Apparently we rate the highest when travel mags drop wallets to see if they get them back or leave grocercies behind but the country has been rocked in recent years by escalating violent crime. Last week in two seperate incidents 2 sales assistants were shot dead in Auckland by the same thugs AFTER co operating and handing over the money. Shot in the head for 'fun' as they left with the money in one case only $250.00 dollars(125.00 us$). May God look after their souls and their families. As for the creeps who did it, well an eye for an eye would be too good for them.

Here is where I struggle with the doctrine that says creeps like this can kill people and create misery all their life and just before they die (faced with their own mortality)find God and all is forgiven.On the opposite side Im supposed to believe that a Protestant minister who is fully aware of the Catholic faith but chooses to remain Protestant will go to hell if he dies without converting? This is despite the fact in will have spent his/her life devoted to Jesus and helping people. Just doesnt add up for me. Of course I could have it all wrong and the creep will go where he belongs to burn in hell and the proddy will go to heaven, hope so.

-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.


Oh I forgot to add we have virtual "on demand abortion", which murdered I think(unsure on figures) close to 15,000 unborn children last year. The morning after pill is also very commonly used. What a discrace, makes me embarrased and sickened even to think about it.

-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.

Hi Courtenay:

Well, we have killed 40,000 million babies, thus far. Our children are TOTALLY unsafe at school. Either their physical lives are endangered, or their souls are in danger from liberal secular indoctrination. People throw away their pets, throw away their children, throw away anything that gets in the way of fun! And all the while we spend billions of dollars in pornography that we ship around the world -- why, we could literally feed every starving child in the world four times over with just what we spend on pornography!

Just last month, the Supreme Court of the United States announced that virtual child pornography is constitutional and will be protected by the high court of the land!

Gambling -- well, you may not think that is such a bad thing, except it has contributed to even more destruction of the family in that men (and women) spend their paychecks trying to win something they didn't earn, and thrust their families into moral and monetary bankruptcy.

Homosexuality is rampant. Gays are infiltrating our schools with such curiculum as "Sally has two mommies" for the 1st grade. Disney World is playground for all sorts of sexual perversions -- children, again, being the primary "targets"

We live in a hedonistic society -- one in which children and the family are the primary target! Who launched this attack? Satan, of course! And we have let him do it!

So, you see the prayer mentioned above is a cry for mercy! A cry for God's grace of repentance. A cry for God's holy hand of judgment to cleanse this land.

Sin is the destroyer and the "Destroyer" has been setting up camp in this part of the world for sometime!

Christ have Mercy!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 20, 2002.


Gail care to elaborate: "Disney World is playground for all sorts of sexual perversions" . oh its 2.10 in the morning here Im off, God Bless Courtenay

-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 20, 2002.


Gail,
I think you'll find the principle is reciprocative.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 20, 2002.

Courtney:
Why do you say:

''--opposite side Im supposed to believe that a Protestant minister who is fully aware of the Catholic faith but chooses to remain Protestant will go to hell if he dies without converting? This is despite the fact in will have spent his/her life devoted to Jesus and helping people. Just doesnt add up for me. Of course I could have it all wrong and the creep will go where he belongs to burn in hell and the proddy will go to heaven, hope so.''------???

Who told you this is an article of the Catholic faith? Our Church does NOT teach a protestant will go to hell for not converting. You have a distorted idea of what going to hell is, first-- and the ''reasons'' some souls go there. But worst yet, why say that's a Catholic teaching, if you haven't seen it?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 20, 2002.


Gail,

Your posts are, just like the Ministers prayer, gutsy and inspiring! After reading the prayer I thought to myself "there are good people after all". It seems at times that no one wants to stick their necks out for truth. This man, and you too Gail, did. Unfortunately it goes without saying that there would be waves. We are truly in a society where we view evil as good. It is quite possible that the Minister will lose his job for this prayer, and maybe even his life. But who cares about this short life - when you have an eternity with God to look forward to?

It reminds me of an email I got a while back - during the columbine incident. Someone asked: "why does God allow things to happen like this?" The response: "Well, we've asked God to leave our schools, and He respects our decision." Until we accept Prayer and the one True God back into our Schools and Politics we will continue to see a lack of morals and an increase in sin!

I will forward this prayer to all my friends, and hope that it does spread like wildfire.

May God Bless that Minister. Thank you for your posts Gail!

In Christ

-- Jake Huether (Jake.Huether@lamrc.com), May 20, 2002.


Hi All:

Good morning, Courtenay, and hello Jake, and thanks for your encouraging words. Chris, I don't understand your point 'reciprocative'?

Anyway, Courtenay, within the past 10 years or so, Disney World has openly, bravely and without shame, embraced homosexuality. They have gay pride days (as does Six Flags) frequently where lesbians and gays congregate celebrating their lifestyles for all the world to see. Since that time, child abductions at Disney are quite common.

A friend of mine took his wife and children to Disney just last year. They had their little boy with them. He got lost, they panicked and went to security immediately. The guards told them, "We have 5 minutes to find him," they asked what that meant, the guard said, "if we don't find them within 5 minutes of their disappearance, they are gone." The guard said abductors will take the child to a restroom, drug him, shave his head, put different clothes on, and escort the child immediately out the gates.

They did find their child, being escorted from Disney by two men. He had been drugged; he was wearing different clothes and he had been given a shaved head.

That's the Disney World of the new millenium! Love,

Gail

Just for the record, I have had several friends that were gay men. I loved them dearly. They were kind, loving people and they both died of AIDS. Is it love to tell them that their lifestyle will kill them physically and spiritually, or is it love to tell them that their lifestyles are normal, healthy and leads to joy everlasting? The truth, or a lie? The truth gives life; the lie kills!

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 20, 2002.


Chill Gene, "Our Church does NOT teach a protestant will go to hell for not converting." I thought I read somewhere on this forum that they would, but I wasnt sure. Ill see if I can find it. Dont let it ruin your day God Bless ps "You have a distorted idea of what going to hell is", well I aint been there yet, why not enlighten me as to its surroundings and purpose?

-- Courtenay (csiherwood@hotmail.com), May 21, 2002.


Gail,
Reciprosity means that it goes both ways.
Something that I'm glad the founders thought important.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 21, 2002.

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-- @@@ (.........@@..............), May 21, 2002.

:)

-- Daf (dafodils@yahoo.com), May 21, 2002.

Gene heres how I got a bit confused: "To blatantly deny the living authority of the magisterium of the Church in order to foist one's own interpretation of past statements of popes is the making of heresy. The Church is the sacrament of salvation for the entire world and this is what the Church means when she says, 'Outside the Church there is no salvation.' We can also say, without Jesus no one will be saved. Yet that does not exclude those who through no fault of their own do not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, or that Jesus is God and the Savior of the whole human race."( JFG)

To me it all seems to hinge on what we consider the “Church” consists of. I will quote your own words Gene:

“You must remember the words of Jesus Christ (read 'em) ''--If they will not hear the Church-- let them be as the heathen and the publican.'' And where is the Church? It is where the chair of Peter is, Peter, the first bishop of ROME. The Pope is the visible sign to the world of WHERE the True Church is, for all the ages. When the last Bible is being misinterpreted by proud men and women, the Word of God will be found there, as it is from the beginning. Before the coming of the printing press”

Forgive my ignorance but perhaps you could see my confusion Love and God Bless Courtenay.

ps do you prefer Eugene or Gene?

-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 21, 2002.


Simple Simon. It is the rejection of Peter that is jepardizing the protestants. They will not honor the decision of Christ on his creation of the Papacy and the Church under the guidance of Peter and his successors. To deny the Popes is to deny Christ.

It is that simple.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 21, 2002.


But a person is only accountable for that which he or she knows. Most Protestants have NO knowledge of anything prior to the Reformation. They believe what they have been told by their pastors; their pastors believe what they learned in seminary without checking for themselves. There are literally hundreds of years of deception upon Protestants. I think that is the point made in the Catechism -- a person is responsible for what they KNOW to be the truth!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2002.


Gail

They have been told many times over the past centuries. Especially in the past decades. The truth is in their hands. They just refuse to hear. Read Scott Hahns story. He knows.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 21, 2002.


Dear Courtney:
Because we believe the words of Jesus Christ, we confuse you? I'm well aware many outside the Catholic Church sincerely believe they've heard and have complete faith in the Holy Gospel. Just for instance, the same ''Minister Joe Wright'' who was asked to open the new session of the KANSAS SENATE. He runs what is called the Central Christian Church; not very Catholic, I'd assume.

Does Rev. Wright believe all the things that catholics believe? Not very likely. But will he go to hell for that? Not very likely. He loves God,

However, Courtney, if the minister was actually aware and conscious of the real authority of the Pope; and the truth of all our Catholic doctrine; no doubts about where Christ's original, True Gospel is taught; and still set himself against those doctrines, that truth--

Would God punish him? Yes; we believe He would.

This forum wouldn't punish Mr. Wright. We would all join in praying for the salvation of his soul; and we pray for yours as well.

But our compassion for you, and for all protestants who are opposed to the Catholic faith; won't change the truth. Christ set up ONE Church for man's salvation. That's why there are certain ''degrees'' of error which might be harmless, depending on your righteousness in this life, and on your total love for God. You may yet be saved. But, altogether, it's God working through His Gospel, and baptism-- that save those outside the Catholic Church. There is no other real batism, except the Catholic one.

KLet me add that not all Catholics are going to be saved, either. Many will be damned despite their baptism and their belief in Catholic doctrines. They'll be damned by their own sins.

While some non-Catholics, despite living in error, as their doctrines teach them; yet may live with a hatred for sin, and love for God. They'll be saved because their error is from ignorance, or innocent faith.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 21, 2002.


Gene or Eugene-- what's the diff? I'm just Gene or Gino to my friends.

I should add that almost all English speaking Christians have adopted sola scriptura; a form of idolatry of the Bible. It's one reason why they fail to understand exactly what the Church is. Here's your words:

''To me it all seems to hinge on what we consider the “Church” consists of. I will quote your own words Gene:
“You must remember the words of Jesus Christ ''--If they will not hear the Church-- let them be as the heathen and the publican.'' And where is the Church?''

Unfortunately for Protestants all over the world, they haven't any notion of what a Church is. To most of them, it doesn't have any bearing on the apostle Peter, or the Popes or ''Rome''. The Bible is their hope on earth! It's the faith all wrapped up in one small package for them. --Sola scriptura is a way of seeing the Bible as a ''church'' and ''organized religion'' as something even Christ rejected. They'll point to a misinterpreted sense of some verse in the scriptures to ''prove'' Jesus didn't care about organized religion. In other words a True Church.

They ask only ONE thing: is it in the Bible? --All the while ignoring the plain fact that without the Catholic Church, they wouldn't even have the Bible!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 21, 2002.


I LOVE Scott Hahn. I have read many of his books over and over again. He's also a great lecturer. But I do believe there is a spiritual blindness upon Protestants that is the curse of the Reformation. That's not an excuse, really, it's just that when I try to talk to my Protestant friends their eyes glaze over, they don't listen, they just hear their biases playing in their heads. I have noted a definite common air of rebellion amongst my friends. But I love them anyway. They are my brothers and sisters in the Lord. And God uses everyone and everything. Nothing is wasted. The Holy Spirit does visit Protestant churches too. Hopefully, my life will reflect the peace that I have now, and hopefully my friends will take note.

Keep in mind, Protestants have had sola scriptura drum-beated into their heads. Getting past that takes a major move of the Holy Spirit!

The biggest help to me was reading the early church fathers on Corunum.org. WHAT AN EYE OPENER! It IS having the Protestant rug yanked out from under you. Many people can't face that! IT IS REALLY SCARY!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 21, 2002.


Hey Folks,

I keep hearing about Scott Hahn, and I intend to pick up his book "Rome Sweet Home" (do I have the correct title?).

But I'm going to throw in a little curve ball. Without a doubt there are Protestants who have converted to Cathlocism, just as there are Catholics who have converted to Protestantism.

I have been doing a lot of reading on both sides of the fence. One in particular is the former Catholic Nun, Mary Ann Collins. Have any of you heard of her, or read what she has to say? If so, what are your comments?

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 21, 2002.


Hi Gail,

With all due respect, if I may ask, what do you now as a catholic have drum-beaten into your head? I do not ask this to be disrespectful in any way, but the wording you choose prompts me to ask this.

Also, I have many friends, most who are Catholic, family members as well. I have one friend in particular who I THOUGHT was a devout Catholic. My reason for thinking this about her, is because she will go to the end of the earth to protect and defend her faith. She faithfully attends MASS every week.

For several months now, shortly before finding this forum, I have a desire to learn about the Catholic religion. I am not anti-catholic what so ever. So as I seek to learn more, I figure I can ask this friend to help explain things to me more in laymans terms, than what I read from Chris B., John and Mateo and others.

You can imagine my surprise when I asked her to tell me about the magisterium (sp). She didn't even know what is was. Then I asked her (this question was asked some time ago) why is the Pope referred to as the Vicar of Christ on earth. She didn't know. It has since occured to me that I may know more about her religion than she does. Mostly from hanging around here of course. So I guess what I want to know is, what kind of catholic is she if she is clueless to her own religion? I ask this seriously. I have often tried to get her to visit this forum with me, but she hasn't yet.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 21, 2002.


Kathy,

Although I am not familiar with Mary Ann Collins, I have talked to two former Catholics that have become Protestants. Both of these individuals were cradle Catholics that never truly learned the faith. In fact, one of them told me we practiced idolatry. If he understood the Church, he would never had said this.

I believe the Catholic schools and CCD classes are sadly lacking when it comes to teaching the tenets of the Catholic faith. I have taught PSR (or CCD) for the last 6 years in different grades. The books we are forced to use are the feel good books that reflect the sermons we hear nowadays. Earlier this year I asked my 6th grade PSR class if they knew what the Real Presence was. NONE of the children knew! In fact, the classes where I had the most participation were the classes where I picked a tenet (Real Presence, Purgatory, Peter as the first Pope, etc) and talked about it. The kids loved learning this as opposed to why you should treat everyone with respect and love. Not that this a bad or wrong thing, but we need to address the catechism with our kids.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 21, 2002.


Glenn,

As I said in my previous post, I do read alot on both sides of the fenceand I do try to stay away from the ones I think are anti- Protestant and anti-Catholic. I can often tell them apart just by the wording alone.

You may be right about CCD and what the kids are learning, but I don't have any first hand knowledge about that. I do however, think that the teaching should continue at home as well. BTW, can you tell me what PSR stands for? A few others have referred to that when speaking of CCD classes. Thanks.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 21, 2002.


Hi Kathy:

What I mean is that Protestants have been lied to many times, not intentionally, but just lies that are handed down from generation to generation -- lies about the Catholic faith, lies about where we actually got the New Testament, lies about what orthodox christianity is. Intellectual dishonesty abounds in Protestantism, and for the most part it's just because most people just don't ask tough questions, and accept whatever they are told. Since I was not raised in any particular denomination I had no real roots (or biases), and ASKED LOTS and lots of questions -- and behold, here I am!

I really appreciate your openness Kathy. You really want to learn, and it's really nice to talk with folks like you!

Lots of Love,

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2002.


Whoops, Kathy, I forgot to answer your question, "What have you as a Catholic had drum-beaten into your head?" I really have not been indoctrinated by the Church. I have indoctrinated myself through my own independent study of church history, and my own study of particular Catholic doctrines, such as veneration of saints, purgatory, the Apocrypha (which is awesome), and of course, Mary. I studied all of these issues using the Bible and early church writings.

The Communion of Saints is the doctrine, though, that absolutely changed my spiritual walk with the Lord! Actually, I had a Protestant minister for some years whose favorite teaching was on Ephesians and our 'eternal destiny' He loved to talk about what we would be doing in heaven. He always said, "Whatever your talents are on earth, you will be using in heaven -- forever." How true, how true. But the thing is Protestants tend to believe we won't be doing those things until after the 2nd coming. BUT Saints that are with Lord now are active, living, vital, and oh-so-very-powerful NOW -- Helping the Lord build His kingdom, interceding, ruling angels.

These are all VERY biblical, it's just that as Protestants we tended to just sort gloss right over the scriptural references! -- or ignore them!

Gail

-- Gail (Rothfarms@socket.net), May 22, 2002.


Ladies

I know that Carolyn can tell her version a bit better than I can. But I will tell you all this that I know.

The one common ground that Carolyn and Scott Hahn both saw in their search for Christ Jesus is the Holy Trinity. Carolyn and Scott have on many occasions had some thoughts come to them and when thay questioned the Theology profeesors in Scotts case and the Ministors in Carolyns case, they BOTH got the same excuse. "Just take MY WORD for it it is so." When you get answers of this nature doubts will creep in. Both of them became converts to the Catholic Church on this issue alone. They both wanted answers that made sense. Something that you can hang onto. I was able to show her this through the ideals and the traditions of the Catholic Church and in Scripture too.

No matter how hard the Protestants try they can and will eventually find themselves in a hole which they find impossible to crawl out of til the ladder the Catholics have raises them out of it. That hole is what Scott Hahn found himself in and the Catholic Church helped him get out of it and Carolyn too. They both found it in the Eucharist of the Church. The real body of Christ Jesus.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 22, 2002.


Gail and Fred,

Thanks for your comments.

Fred, through my journey as I learn the differences between the two religions, I cannot bring myself to just "Take someones word". There are so many disputes between the two, it is going to take me a while to figure this all out. Coming to this forum and reading some past threads is helping me along, although I still find myself saying "well they both hava a point", which leads me to research more until I find the answer I believe to be true. I do appreciate the patience I have been shown here.

Gail, when you talk about your experiences as a Protestant, it is so foreign to me because that has not been my experience at all. I have never heard a pastor talk in a negative tone about Catholics, ever. As matter of fact, a few sunday's ago, my pastor asked that we all pray for the healing of all catholics and their Church. He was very sincere.

Anyway Gail, there is still alot I seek to know about the Catholic Church. I struggle with understanding some things; annulment is one of them. I am still reading all the old material on the subject here in the forum.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 22, 2002.


Kathy,

I believe PSR is an acronym for Parish School Religion. It is simply another name for CCD. At least, I do not know of any differences. Our parish uses the term PSR, but where I grew up it was called CCD (only reason I know this is my mom taught it but sent her kids to parochial schools).

Glenn

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 22, 2002.


Kathy

On annulments, they are simply a way of determining if a marriage did not meet ALL of the requirements of the marriage to be considered valid spiritually. It is NOT a guaranteed thing in any fashion as GOD still does have the very last word on it. The Church grants annulments as long as the parties involved have spoken the truth and have convinced the tribunal lawyers the full true facts of why the marriage was not valid in the sacramental sense of thinking. They are granted only from the human aspect of things with prayer and guidance from the Holy Spirit. Also, the Annulment can be denied if the tribunal sees that the conditions point to a lack of evidence that the marriage was in fact invalid. It takes time to wander through the maze on the ideals of what is and is not. But, once you see it clearly it is not a mystery at all. What you need to do is to keep the secular and religious requirements of a marriage and the divorce of the secular modes out of the spiritual modes and the picture becomes clearer.

Granted, I am not perfect on this issue, but I learn something new everyday --Thanks be to GOD. Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (FCB@heartland.com), May 22, 2002.


It's odds 'n' ends time, folks.

Courtenay, on May 21, you were writing to Gene, and you said this:
"Gene here's how I got a bit confused: 'To blatantly deny ...' (JFG)"
In other words, it looked like you were quoting me. Can you please give me the URL of the thread on which you found that? Somehow it doesn't seem to me that I wrote those words. Maybe I was quoting someone myself?


CCD = Confraternity of Christian Doctrine
PSR = Parish School of Religion


Gail, the great "Cor Unum" (One Heart) site has moved and is now here.


Kathy, feel free to ask questions about the specific things that bother you about Decrees of Nullity (which some call by the informal [but I think inadvisable] name, "annulments"). Or, if you would prefer to read old threads, that's fine. Another good outside source of info on the topic is
here. This is part of a West Virginia Catholic diocese's Internet site. At the top of the page there are more than 120 links to Q&A about "Nullity," and I think that they are all answere by a priest who is a judge on a marriage tribunal. (Below those 120 links are many more to Q&A on other topics.)


Kathy, two other things:
--- I would guess that your Catholic friend is faithful to attending Mass, taking part in parish life, etc., but does not read anything to develop her knowledge of doctrine, current events, etc.. It would be good for her privately to read the Bible, the Catechism, her diocesan newspaper (if orthodox), and perhaps a reliable Catholic periodical, such as 'Catholic World Report' (to get an international perspective).
--- I heard of Sister Mary Ann Collins - i.e., when she was still calling herself a Catholic. I had not heard that she left the Church. I need to refresh my memory about her, but I believe that she was a dissenter from Catholic doctrine. If true, then I am glad that she left temporarily, to get her bearings straight. That was honest of her. At least hundreds of dissenters pretend to remain Catholic, to make use of the Church's power structure to further their aims.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 25, 2002.


This is becoming irritating. I am starting to mess up links left and right. Old age, I guess.

Here is the Cor Unum link:
Cor Unum

Here is the West Virginia diocese link:
Wheeling-Charleston

JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 25, 2002.


Jmj

Kathy,
A little digging has revealed to me that there seem to be two very different women named Mary Ann Collins, both linked to Catholic sisterhood:

(1) The one I was mentioning earlier (as a possible dissident) is a Dominican nun -- or was still one, as of October, 2001. Here is a picture of her and a few words about her in April, 2001.

(2) The one you probably are referring to (the ex-Catholic) has her own Internet site for the purpose of damaging Catholicism to the best of her ability. She says that she was never a nun/sister, but only a postulant and novice (no vows professed). She does not reveal the name of the order/congregation to which she belonged. I glanced at an her autobiographical sketch. She claims to have been was a convert to Catholicism and that she later abandoned the faith. Her story (if genuine) is quite a bit like others I have seen. People who give up on the Catholic Church do so for reasons that are not valid. That includes Mary Ann Collins.

Kathy, can you verify that this second woman is the "Mary Ann Collins" you have in mind? If there is something that she criticizes in Catholicism that you want to bring to our attention -- for our comment/correction -- please do so.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 25, 2002.


Hi John,

Thank you for your posts. I haven't looked at the links you provided yet, but I will.

www.CatholicConcerns.com, John this is the site of Mary Ann Collins (former nun). I believe it would be the second one you listed.

John, I have read several stories of former protestants and former catholics. Obviously each has their own story, but in the end it is I who will ultimately decide for myself after researching their claims with factual history. Their stories don't really influence me as far as who do I believe, but rather they give me a starting point as to where I want to begin in my quest in regaurds to both religions. (I hope this makes sense to you).

One thing I don't understand though John, why is it okay for a former protestant to tell his story and why he converted to cathlocism, but if a former catholic tells his story and why he converted to protestanism - he is anti-catholic? John, let me give you one example of what I mean by this: (Gail, if you are reading this, please do not take offense by it, I mean you no harm)In one of Gail's posts she makes a few comments about her own experiences as a convert from protestant to catholic, now if one were to say the exact same thing but changing the words around from catholic to protestant, they would be accused of catholic bashing or anti-catholic. This all seems hypocritical to me.

Now when I go to these different sites and read the stories or former protestants and former catholics, I don't take either one to be truth until I find it in factual history, which then and only then would I decide it to be true. I feel like I am rambling, but I do hope you understand what I am trying to say.

As far as the Decree of Nullity, I am having a hard time understanding the whole concept of this. I am reading several old threads on the subject, as well as the on-line Catechism.

I'd like to say that I do not believe in divorce, but that wouldn't be 100% true. I do think in my own mothers situation there was no other alternative, it was either him or me (abuse).

If the Decree of Nullity does not dissolve the marriage because it is a reasoned judgment that one never exsisted, then wouldn't that mean that the children were born out of wedlock? Therefore, sex before marriage?

John, I will give you one question at a time that I have, so that I don't confuse myself. :-)

Please be patient with me. There are alot of differences between the two religions and I still have ALOT to learn. The terminology alone is hard enough for me! John, if you can reccomend a book for me (something not to difficult, as I won't have a dictionary on the beach with me) I'd appreciate that.

Thanks and God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 25, 2002.


Hi John,

I posted a response to your last post before looking at the links you provided. I just took a peek and realized my question was listed there. I am going back now to read it in its entirety.

I apologise for this. I will get back to you and let you know if I still have trouble with this. It looks like a good link from the quick peek I took, thank you.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 26, 2002.


Hi, Kathy.

Yes, I hope that you will find that linked site very helpful.

You asked, "One thing I don't understand though John, why is it okay for a former protestant to tell his story and why he converted to cathlocism, but if a former catholic tells his story and why he converted to protestanism -- he is anti-catholic?"

I don't deny, Kathy, that there are some "cradle Catholics" who have an unreasonable detestation of everything Protestant, as well as converts to Catholicism who lash out unjustly at the people and religious communities of their past, damning them as anti-Christs. If you wish, I would not blame you for calling them "anti-Protestants." However, I usually find cradle Catholics and converts to be much more reasonable than that.

I wish that you could watch "The Journey Home" every Monday night at 8:00 Eastern on the Eternal Word TV Network (EWTN). A convert (or revert) is interviewed for an hour. Invariably, the convert expresses an appreciation for the good things he/she learned prior to becoming a Catholic -- most often a love for Jesus and the Bible. These folks are never anti-Protestant bashers, even though they have no trouble pointing explaining why they were wrong to believe what they formerly believed, when it was in conflict with Catholicism.

Though I probably fail at times, I try to remember to use the word "anti-Catholic" to refer to those "cradle Protestants" and ex-Catholic heretics who are not satisfied to believe differently from me, but try to reach out and damage the Catholic Church. Many of them unjustly criticize Catholics (especially the pope) by presenting things that are not factual about Church history or doctrine. Some say that Catholics are not even Christians. Some say that the pope is the anti-Christ. Some say that Catholics will not be saved. Some say that we are damned because we invent new doctrines, try to earn our salvation, try to communicate with the dead, worship a woman or a piece of bread, etc., etc., etc.. They are offensive and wrong about all these things, but they pull the poorly taught out of the Catholic Church, and they fool the unchurched into avoiding the Catholic Church.

After examining the Mary Ann Collins site, I have no trouble at all in calling her an extreme anti-Catholic. Just her inflammatory "table of contents" sets off flashing red lights. Some entries are:

The Spirit of Roman Catholicism -- What Lies Behind the Modern Public Image?
Were the Early Christians Roman Catholics?
Mandatory Celibacy
Hunting "Heretics"
Hobbling Scripture
New Age Catholicism
Spiritual Intimidation
What Is Our Source of Authority?
The Numbers Game
Mary Worship? A Study of Catholic Practice and Doctrine
Faith Versus Works
The Authority of Scripture
Queen of Muslims, Queen of All

Here is a Collins statement from the "Mary worship" article:
"As a faithful Catholic, and later as a nun, I practiced Mary worship for many years without realizing it."

Kathy, from your time here at the forum, you surely know that the above is sheer anti-Catholic nonsense. I think that you should be asking yourself, "Was this woman ever really an educated Catholic?" I, for one, am sure that the answer is "No."

God bless you.
John
PS: You wrote, "John, if you can recommend a book for me (something not to difficult, as I won't have a dictionary on the beach with me) I'd appreciate that." If you'd like to take your mind off controversy and just absorb a spiritual gem, you could try, "The Imitation of Christ," by Thomas a Kempis (born c. 1380). Read about it here.

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.


Hi John,

Thank you again for your response. I will look for that book you suggested in the library.

John, I do agree with you that some former Catholics are a bit absurd and make statements that would insult the intelligence of Catholics and non-catholics like myself. I have seen a few sites for example on the "Whore of Babylon" very anti-catholic and ridiculous to say the least.

John, you are right when you say I have been on this forum long enough.... I have learned here that Catholics do not actually "worship" Mary, but have a great respect for her and I can see why. Although I never thought that to be true anyway.

At this stage in my life, I find myself at a crossroad. I am very happy with the Congregation I belong too, but at the same time feel as though I am missing something. So, I ask that you be patient with me in my questions that I ask, and know that I ask with genuine interest.

Thank you for your time and understanding John.

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 26, 2002.


You have my promise to be patient, Kathy.
Have a nice holiday, please.
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.

Thanks again John.

You have a nice weekend too. :-)

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 26, 2002.


John, "Maybe I was quoting someone myself?" yes you were, here it is sorry to misquote you

http://www.greenspun.com/bboard/q-and-a-fetch-msg.tcl?msg_id=002d4y I hope that you have been able to see the very kind and gentle priest, Fr. Augustine Mary Hedderman, a Franciscan who celebrates Mass on EWTN TV frequently. Despite his gentleness, he "makes no bones" about this subject, writing: "To blatantly deny the living authority of the magisterium of the Church in order to foist one's own interpretation of past statements of popes is the making of heresy. The Church is the sacrament of salvation for the entire world and this is what the Church means when she says, 'Outside the Church there is no salvation.' We can also say, without Jesus no one will be saved. Yet that does not exclude those who through no fault of their own do not know the Catholic Church to be the true Church, or that Jesus is God and the Savior of the whole human race."

-- (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 26, 2002.


I thought this prayer had a lot of worthwhile things to say, although I would disagree on the lottery, it is merely a tax on the stupid (which I also am occasionally (1 ticket), if the prize is large enough :-). No one is forced to play the lottery, they choose to. People of all socio- economic strata play the lottery.

I totally agree on the welfare part--if someone doesn't want to work a 40-hour week, fine, but most people can put in some time working in order to pay for their room and board somewhere, which shouldn't be a better situation than many people who refuse to go on welfare live in, but often is.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 27, 2002.


Thanks, Courtenay. I appreciate that. JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 27, 2002.

What an absolutely wonderful prayer!!

I agree with every single part of it!! Can you imagine what our world would be like if we could all make such an examination of conscionce and confessed our sins? Can you imagine what our nation would be like if this were prayed in all our levels of government? I pray that it truly would sweep over our nation and our world.

May God forgive us.

cksunshine

-- cksunshine (ck_sunshine@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.


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