Greetings to all.

I have been asked to take a photo of a large stained glass window in our parish church so that it can be used to produce a Christmas card. I should be very grateful for any advice on technique from those who have experience of this.

Some of the questions which I foresee are:

Colour negative film type and speed (or does anyone recommend this is done with slide film?)

Best time of day in relation to sun colour temperature and brightness? Is a sunny day a good idea, or is lightly overcast better? Problem of trees in the area affecting evenness of light?

Fortuitously there will be maintenance work going on which will enable me to get up high on a builders' scaffold so that the problem of converging verticals should not be a serious issue.

Exposure calculation. Just a direct reading, bracketed?

When I have the negative, how best is the picture offered to the printing firm? As a glossy, or matt, and what size?

Camera is an M6 classic. I have only two lenses - 35mm and 50mm F2 Summicrons.

I'm sure there are other questions I should have thought of. All ideas gratefully received.

James Harper

-- James Harper (drjh@btinternet.com), May 16, 2002

Answers

James, You are going to be capturing saturated colours created with transmited light - forget neg and use a good 100 tranny film - the rich colours of stained glass will be preserved best this way. You can try Velvia but IMO the colours are exagerated. My current fav is Provia F - neutral, fine and sharp and handles odd colour sources well (not that you should get any with daylight) As it will be in effect backlit - shadow detail is irrelevent. Also repro houses still prefer a good tranny - it will scan better than a print and they will be able to match the colour if they have an original next to them on a light box. Bright sunlight may give shadows but may also give more interesting results depends on which way the window is facing.As for exposure - bracket - film is cheap! I'm constantly impressed how the meter on my M6 gets things right - even compared to the Nikon Matrix (judged to be about the best in curent SLR technology) it comes up trumps every time.

-- Johann Fuller (johannfuller@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

If your ultimate target is a print, I'd use the easiest film to deal with, a slow-speed color negative. Transparancy film would provide a good way to establish the "best" exposure based on an indident or spot reading. You could run a roll of Ektachrome, get it processed locally, then transfer the results of that test to the color print film. Bracket well. Ideally, I'd want a uniformly couldy day with the sun on the same side of the sky as the window. This will avoid excessive contrast. The more parallel you can keep the camera back to the window, the less keystoning and perspective problems you'll have too.

There are lots of resources on the web:

http://www.glendalemall.com/photographing_stained_glas.htm

http://www.worshipfulglaziers.com/word_docs/Photographing_Stained_Glas s.doc

http://www.customstudios.com/howtophoto/window.html

http://www.arthur.rope.clara.net/howto.htm

-- Skip Williams (skipwilliams@pobox.com), May 16, 2002.

you should probably stop by the church several times first to see how the light plays on the stained glass. some shots work best with a strong back light such as a late afternoon sun, others with none. a favorite shot of mine is a strongly back lit shoot at a an angle to the stained glass window into a darkened church. you can catch the window and the colored light filtering through the church. it also allows you the opportunity to pose some thing of religeous significance in the light.

I would spot meter off of the various colored panes and bracket like crazy. my experience is that under exposing the shot works best, but then again I prefer a totally dark church in which to shoot. good luck and have fun.

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

I did something like this before, so this is what I got from it:
Light is important, but avoid the sun shining directly through the windows into the lens. Late morning about 10 is maybe the optimal time. Cloudy days are not good, since stained glass is about colors and these only shine in the sun.
Exposure setting is complicated: Bracket is the way to go, and an incident light metering from outside is a good point to start (since the glass is more or less shined on and there is no big difference dependent on the side of the glass you look at). A bit of underexposure (central weighted reflected metering) brings you to the colors you might want to have.
I tried some negative film, but it is very hard to get it printed right. I did not find an affordable way. The prints are much too bright. I prefer slides, but I think if someone knows how to print these slides he or she will also master the printing of the negatives.
A tripod might help; since you are located usually below the window take care of converging lines and look out for a deep DOF. The further you are away from the window, the easier these problems are avoided (or in other words the 50 may be better than the 35).
For the final print I'd recommend glossy, since this will let the colors shine.
And don't forget to post your results !

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), May 16, 2002.

James:

I have done quite a bit of this and I don't have an answer to your question. I can give you my experience.

I don't use Velvia or K64 with Leitz or Zeiss lenses for this subject. I do use them with Nikon lenses. You can use an incident meter to set some limits but you can't establish a right exposure. In-camera meters are useless. You need to bracket over a wide range. If you are going to print directly, use a negative film. If you are going to scan use a positive film. For negative films; your guess is as good as mine, I use NPH in 35 mm.

I don't really know where you are. My experience is that the color balance in the same film sold on different continents is not the same. The color of the transmitted light is important. Eg., I would use Ektachrome if the dominant colors are blue and green; but not if they are red. You should test shoot to find what works. That is what I do. I usually take two or three cameras with different film and see what works.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

As a travel photographer I shoot *lots* of stained glass windows.

Film: slide vs print, ask the place who will print the X-mas cards which they prefer.

Time of day: any time the sun itself is not visible shining directly through the window.

Exposure: if the window is a good mixture of medium red and blue along with clear, you can probably trust the camera meter especially with print film. Bracket slide film in 1/2 stops 1-2 stops on either side. It's cheap insurance.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

Ideally, you would shoot on a tripod, with the film plane parallel to the window. Depending on how big the windows are, with only 35mm and 50mm lenses, you may wish you had a scaffold, or a tall ladder (be careful), or a choir loft. Simply tilting your camera up at the window is not going to be ideal.

-- Jim Lennon (jim@jmlennon.com), May 16, 2002.

Incident meters are useless when photographing subjects that are luminescent.

THINK!

What do I want to have as a middle gray tone?

Where will that place my highlights?

Where will that place my shadows?

If in doubt bracket. Half stop steps with neg and 1/3 stop steps with chrome.

Jay is right on, what does the lab who will do the reproduction want? Chrome is good for maintaining colour fidelity but not if the lab would prefer negatives.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@shaw.ca), May 16, 2002.

Jim:

Ideally, you would use a view camera for this. That is what I usually do. The question dealt with the use of small format cameras. Can't beat an 8 x 10 positive of these things. ;<)

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

John:

Incident meters are useless when photographing subjects that are luminescent.

While I don't know what you are talking about, I might ask if you know how to use flat diffusers on an incident meter. It does work; with experience. By-the-by, you are using luminescent incorrectly in a scientific sense. ;<)

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

Interesting question. I have to agree with Art here- a view camera is best for this sort of thing- you can really correct perspective. A tripod is absolute neccesity. If you have to shoot this with your M, use the 50 for sure, and get back as far as you can, up high to be straight on the subject.

The comments about asking the final user which they prefer, neg or chrome, are absolutely right on- for myself, I'd shoot this in slides, as it seems most here recommend. I disagree with John Collier about incident meters being USELESS here, though. You can meter facing in the window- amount of light coming through- and get a good exposure there with any film. Just put the meter up a couple of inches away from the glass, dome facing the glass. Then bracket in halves one-two stops around this, to be safe, if you like.

However, he is of course right that spot metering and THINKING about where you want your highlights and shadows to fall- this sort of simplified zine-system metering is always a good idea, and especially important in this type of shooting. If this seems to contradict what I just said above about how to use incident metering for this, think of the two options as the simple way, and they technically proficient way.

Good luck, and let us know what you come up with.

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

I do not know Art, do stained glass windows get hot? :-)

All the flat diffuser does is allow you to measure the light falling on a subject from a specific direction rather than averaging all the light falling on a subject (180 degrees) as the dome does. A flat diffuser is very useful for calculating lighting ratios but it still will not meter subjects that emit light.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@shaw.ca), May 16, 2002.

I think a view camera is overkill for a X-mas card shot. Any PC lens would do the trick onb a 35 or MF. The original post indicated he'd be able to get up on a scaffold so as not to tilt the camera. BTW, someone suggested bracketing chrome in 1/3 stops. How do you do that with an M6? (Sure the ISO settings are in 1/3 stops but the shutter and aperture aren't) I always considered it a major flaw of the R8 that the shutter is not adjustable in 1/3 stops except with the AE.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

John :

A flat diffuser is very useful for calculating lighting ratios but it still will not meter subjects that emit light.

Actually, that is a rough approximation of what we do for a standard beam from a black emitting standard. [in A of course; ;<)] Here, we are not taling about an emitting source; we are talking about a transmitting source. It is different.

Jay; depends on what you want.

Art

-- Art (AKarr9075@aol.com), May 16, 2002.

perosnally, I've had great luck provia 100 metering directly from glass, bracketing minimally. I also use out-of-focus shots to provide varied colored backgrounds (projected on blank backgrounds).

However, the point I would agree with, is visit the place a few times through the day. A straight on shot of the big window with Jesus and the sheep (or whatever)may be what some committee has in mind, but a smaller window may be much more dramatic at some time. In particular, a shaft of light, particularly with an angled view of the window, and maybe enough dust particles (or fake smoke) to emphasize the shaft, would be much more dramatic. If I had a free day to photograph my small church (let alone a big ornate one), I could easily shoot 3-4 roles, bracket, and change subjects and locations, and I have seen angles everywehre, with the big window being the worst subject, in my artistic opinion. Of course, if you want the big window straight on, the colors will be dramatic, and the congregation will have instant identification. But, consider your chance at art, here, as well. Maybe the pulpit/Bible with the stained glass in an almost out-of-focus background, or a book/scarf on a pew, or, candles in a cascade of colors from adjacent windows, as the later hours of the day drop the illumination of the stained glass to lower levels.(Thye'll want the head on big window, probably, but you can have a lot more fun).

-- L Smith (lacsmith@bellsouth.net), May 16, 2002.

In some "How To" book by Kodak, I seem to remember something about photographing stained glass windows. It said to open up three stops over what the normal exposure is. In other words, if you metered the same light source from the outside, then came into the church, just add 3 stops more. That should get you in the ball park. Then bracket in 1/3 stops with slide film and 1/2 with negs. An enhancing filter & tripod might help.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

Hi, James -

There is a common thread that runs through almost all answers, and I couldn't agree more. Bracket - - bracket - - bracket !!

Pat and I have photographed stained glass windows in churches and cathedrals throughout Euorope and the US (including some Reformation churches in Holland that were little more than frosted glass). I've used a monopod where necessary. Use the apature/ speed setting indicated by your camera's meter as a starting point, as you're seeing "reflective light." For whatever reason, we've found that our best results were obtained by using an apature of f/5.6 and letting the shutter speed fall where it may. With ASA 100, that's why I had to use the monopod on occasions.

Burning up an additional three or four slides each, over and under the meter's setting, should give you a reasonably decent replication of what you want. Film is cheap: Time, and the requisite light, are transient.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), May 16, 2002.

Dear Jim: I frequently photograph stained glass on my travels. I usually use Provia-100 but Velvia can give you some incredible results as well. The time of day is critical: never shoot with the sun right behind the glass as this usually causes massive loss of contrast. Early in the day or late in the afternoon produce fascinating results. Another pleasant surprise: overcast days usually result in nice photos as well but here you will not get the possible rays diffusing through the glass. Another trick I have used to good effect is to employ a moderate telephoto or a zoomlens: you can capture details of the window which in themselves can sometimes be even more interesting than the window as a whole and you eliminate keystoning. For large windows, where you really want to capture it whole, I have used the 28mmPC F/2.8 to great effect. Filters are also helpful. I have found that an 81B, particularly on a cloudy day, produces a warmer photograph. Exposure is really a function of disciplined bracketting: I usually use matrix with either manual or aperture priority and bracket 1/2 + and -. Finally a sturdy tripod with a cable release is very important. It sounds like alot but if you have a disciplined approach to this, you can actually photograph a significant number of windows in a short amount of time-before your wife starts to get very impatient!!!

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), May 16, 2002.

Surly, this doesn't look that hard? A straight metered shot. This summer, you can easily get 100 photos of Church Windows. Say, didn't someone compose a symphany about that? Leitz M6, Elmar-M 50mm 1:2.8, B+W KR1.5 MRC, Fuji Sensia II 200, Polaroid SprintScan 4000:

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

The music Glenn's thinking of is John McCabe's "The Chagall Windows".

-- Michael Cockerham (cockerham@ukonline.co.uk), May 17, 2002.

Glenn:

One can only discuss composition of a posted photo. [compsition; a window is a window]. Color, contrast ratios etc are impossible.

Even if the photo is good it falls into the "even a blind squirrel finds an acorn, eventually" category. ;<)

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), May 17, 2002.

James,

Unless you live in Tornado Alley your church ain’t goin’ anywhere soon, is it? So try all these things. Try till you get what you want. The most important ingredient is the picture in your head.

One more thing you might think about, if (a) the building elevation is not much larger than the window and (b) the subject window faces east (SE if you’re way up north), then you might try shooting on a clear evening from the outside of the building during the fading daylight. Illuminate the window from the inside, or if you’re really lucky, open the doors and light it with God’s own. The intent would be to silhouette the building with the glow of the evening light, with the bright window as the main focus. Wow, if you could get snow into it you could sell it to Hallmark and make back the cost of the film.

Good shooting,

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), May 17, 2002.

Dear Friends,

I am overwhelmed by your kindness in sending me so many helpful answers. I now have all the information I could ask for and will now retire to a quiet corner to consider it.

Clearly, generous bracketing is a large part of the answer. I took the excellent advice to ask the Christmas card printers what they wanted. They said they would prefer a colour negative printed to a high quality which they will then scan and do all the necessary.

I never cease to be amazed at the experience and help available in this forum.

Best wishes to all.

PS If this message appears twice, my apologies - there was a problem with the first attempt to send it.

-- James Harper (drjh@btinternet.com), May 18, 2002.

How about photographing stained underwear? mmmmmm, stained knickers.

-- Phill (philkneen@manx.net), May 18, 2002.