Recently we have been bothered by current news media events concerning priests' behaviors. I assume no elaboration needed here. Thus, I am tempted to assume that any lack of holiness in our priests to be from a lack of penance or lack of simplicity in living on the part of the clergy everywhere, including Rome. This could be a wrong assumption. Is this the complete cause for these events?

The priest shortage is a separate but still defining issue of the state of the priesthood today. For this, I am tempted to think that the priestly celibacy discipline be made optional. Reasoning being that this is the best solution to obtain a greater number of priests. Again this assumes that there is fault in the current discipline of priests and nowhere else.

However, it has come to mind that perhaps the above views are half-truths with my selfishness showing up as the other half. It is pointing of the finger wrongly. I have been told from a good man that the laity gets the priesthood it deserves. So does it? Are we all to blame and the news is really pointing at ALL of us for the scandals and for the priest shortage. And if so, what am I going to do about it. How can I better do God's will today, in light of these troubles?

-- Michael Hitzelberger (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 15, 2002

Answers

Hi Michael:

That reminds me about a sermon I once heard sometime ago about 'politicians' reflecting the values of the people they serve, which makes sense of course. But in this case, priests are not elected as in a democracy. And, too, some people are very clever in covering up who they really are -- wolves in sheep clothes.

However, having said all that, I think people do tend to gravitate towards people they like. You know, 'birds of a feather.' I'm going to use this place to brag a little bit about my parish which is full of life and love for the Lord. The priest is a very godly man who LOVES Jesus, and I must say that most of the parishioners DO reflect his zeal. I have been to some masses that are very very dry and the sermons watered down, syrupy sweet and SO lacking in substance.

If the church decides to stick with celebacy, then that's the way it is! If that produces a shortage, then the good priests will have to work very very hard. But you know what? They'll love it! People of God rise to the occasion when the occasion calls for it. The laypeople will support their priests helping out however they can. The laypeople will minister to each other and alleviate their pastor's burden. QUALITY is better than QUANTITY! The shortage does not bother me a bit.

Plus people need to realize that having married priests presents a whole lot of other problems. Their would be families that need attention. In MANY (if not all) of the protestant churches I have been in, nepotism abounds; family members, distant cousins, brothers and sisters always seem to get the plumb jobs! They are always in the spotlight! I LOVE the fact that my priest belongs to his sheepfold. He is free to serve 100% of the time with no family members lurking in the background. It's funny that in the eastern churches, nepotism IS a problem. So, there's my two-cents.

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 15, 2002.

Gail,

You are very lucky indeed to have a holy pastor, not every church has one of those.

So, I must disagree with you on part of your post:

"If the church decides to stick with celebacy, then that's the way it is! If that produces a shortage, then the good priests will have to work very very hard. But you know what? They'll love it!"

I don't think 'every' priest will love to work very, very hard. My pastor does not like to work - it is a big problem in our parish - he has all the lay people doing the work and he hardly ever shows up for important meetings - unless it involves money. We have an assistant who comes to say mass three times a week - there is no mass on Monday, and the 3 days the other priest comes all he does is complain about it, that it is "too much work."

Thank God that you have such a spiritual and holy pastor, what a blessing. They say the church is as alive spiritually as its pastor, and that is so true. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 15, 2002.

My $.02, which, I am sure in the major scheme comes out to even less:

Personally, I don't think that the shortage of priests is due to the celibacy issue at all, despite the majority that would say otherwise. I think what has truly happened is that those with vocations have more and more failed to respond. It seems more and more men don't want to give up their life of ease and luxury. Some want to put it off until it is too late. Others may not want to fight the opposition of their family, friends, peers, etc. And some, unfortunately, have steeped themselved in such sin that they wish not to repent of, that they have actually lost their vocation. God calls constantly, like a gentle Father bidding His child to tend His sheep, but so many no longer want to listen.

Personally, I believe that if these men would spend some time before even a crucifix to reflect on their lives, they would be better off as a result. We need to get men to sit in the silence of Christ, before the Blessed Sacrament, and just listen. They need to listen. There are too many distractions, internet, t.v., work, play, this, that, or the other thing, no rest, no silence. These men need to confront their own lives, and realize their unworthiness in being mere men, that they are "dust, and to dust they shall return." Even then, it is not enough. These men need to be close to their Heavenly Mother and let her teach them her Son. Prepare these unworthy men to go before Our Lord with "fear and trembling," aware of their own mortality, aware of their weaknesses, aware of their God. Still, even then, the path is only beginning. They need to learn the value of penance, mortification, and custody, they need to prepare themselves that the Holy Spirit may fill them and work through them, becoming mere instruments for Our Lord.

I think the biggest problem is this, everyone believes they have control over every aspect of their life, and if it fails, they attribute it to fate. However, it goes even deeper, I think that many have failed to realize that their vocation is a call, not a choice. The only choice these men have is whether they want to live that life, or find another one, possibly depriving themselves of countless graces. They fail to grasp the concept that they are called, their Father is calling them, calling them to commit their lives to imitate and act, In Persona Christi (In the Person of Christ). He is asking them to take the cup, unlike any in the world, that they may live with, through, and in Christ. Yet, so many refuse this cup from their Father. Why? because it requires too much, it requires them to be a victim, to unselfishly offer themselves for their flock, to be an instrument, to be nothing according to the standard of the world, it requires them to be another Christ.

The issue is not celibacy, it is lack of those that want to heed the call. God calls, He is always calling, and I am sure He cries when His children refuse to listen, but He won't stop, He will always call. The question is, who is ready to say, "speak Lord for your servant heareth."

-- Brian (sacerdos@hotpop.com), May 15, 2002.

"Recently we have been bothered by current news media events concerning priests' behaviors."

What a typically catholic way of describing the rape of a legion of children...

-- Molson (dennismolson@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

Priests are not elected by men. They don't come out of a catalogue, or from a classified ad. God calls them all to the holy priesthood, and the ones who are worthy of Him answer. It isn't the laity which has to be pleased, or the world. How many of us Catholic executives looked at all the priest candidates, and offered the best ones contracts; 10 million for 40 years of labor in the vineyards of the Lord? That's ridiculous! The priest isn't here to make you and me happy with the ''results'' like a first round draft choice in football.

You maintain we get what we deserve. No-- we get no such thing. God gets what men offer Him. God is calling them, not us. I think many of our ills are due precisely to this self-absorption in the Catholics of today. The Catholic wants to be served by priests. They make him ''happy'', or they make him ''unhappy!''

To hell with the laity! What is GOD saying about our seminaries? About the priest who fails in his vocation, and the nun who didn't keep her vows? Does God get what He deserves??? We have no Church; the Church is Jesus Christ's! We haven't been betrayed by the pedophile priest; it was Jesus who was betrayed and ignored. All we hear is ''the children''-- and ''the children!!!''

Yes, the children are victims of men's inhumanity. But Christ is more important than all the children of this world. His holy altar is defiled, and we ask-- ''Are we getting the priests we deserve?''

What a crock! Stop the world! I want to get OFF!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

I am confident (though no one asked me ) that the shortage of priests in America is not substantially caused by the requirement of celibacy. All of mainline Protestantism suffers the same shortage of religious leaders-servants. Not evangelical Protestantism, mind you, there is a surplus there.

Very gingerly, I suggest that the same crisis of faith affects American Catholics and mainline Protestants alike. I am, of course, not speaking of all members of these two groups. I have read your lamentations with regard to trends among American Catholics, and they are echoed among Lutherans, Episcopals, Presbyterians, etc. Our impudent confidence in our ability to "improve" the church by making her over in our own image is leading to her demise.

Thankfully, we can have confidence that Christ`s church will remain, despite the machinations of eager Americans. Thanks be to God for that man who holds the keys.

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), May 16, 2002.

The shortage of priests is a direct fault to our present day "luxuries" which cloud men and also women to the religious life. Only salvation is that it will never stopp GOD from existing. Thanks be to GOD.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

Hi Eugene:

I think you misunderstood Michael's meaning of the question. I think he meant, 'did we get what we deserve?' But still your point is well taken. Jesus' name IS being dragged through the mud by men who either don't know him, or did know him and turned their back on him, and that really is the tragedy.

MaryLu, I'm so sorry about your situation. Are there members in the church whom you can pray with to ask God to radically change this priest's life? Sounds like he needs a 'Lazarus' experience! Are there other parishes you could visit to get 'revitalized'?

I think I'm spoiled already by my pastor and the members. Plus, this parish is way out in the country in the middle of nowhere, (like Mayberry) yet the pews are packed every Sunday and he does four masses over the weekend. It is the work of the Holy Spirit!

I did find out, too, that the pastor before him was a 'spirit-filled' and zealous lover of God, so he definitely left his imprint on this parish.

But revival usually begins with small flames of fire, doesn't it? Lord, blow those little flames into roaring flames! Amen!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 16, 2002.

I don't know much about the shortage of priests', or any other clergy. But, I can't help but wonder if the shortage has anything to do with the way children are being brought up.

I am in my early thirties.....(okay, truth be told, mid-late thirties, but who's counting), and I do not come in contact with too many people who are seriously preaching to their children about our Lord. Yes, most of them (kids) attend CCD or Sunday School, but does the teaching stop there? Shouldn't it continue at home as well? IMHO kids look at CCD, or Sunday School as a "chore". They whine about going.

If our children do not take the teaching of our Lord seriously, how are any of them going to hear if they are being called on? What I am trying to say is, when priest's or other clergy hear their calling, don't they usually come from a strong religious backround?

I may be way off here, but it just seems to me that if someone isn't brought up with a solid foundation in their belief in Jesus, then they may be missing their calling.

As Mateo would say......just my $0.02

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 16, 2002.

Hi All:

Brian, I really loved your post.

Churches -- all churches, whether Protestant or Catholic -- need to preach the Cross of Christ. Jesus said, 'to pick up your cross, deny yourself and follow him.' This idea that Jesus came to earth to make us healthy, wealthy, comfortable and secure, is being preached all over the place in this country. As if Christ is just something you add to your life to make your life better. When that happens the cross loses its power, the gospel is watered down, and people's souls are in peril!

There's even a guy on the Trinity Broadcast Network that has been preaching that we 'are equal with God,' and that if you aren't prosperous and healthy it's because you don't REALIZE this! This man influences millions of people with his false gospel. There are false gospels being preached from the pulpit everywhere. People have embraced secularism. People have embraced homosexuality and abortion as normative.

In one sense Michael is right on the money -- when we embrace the world's system, we reap the whirlwind! I saw in the headlines today that the Catholic University in Boston is organizing seminars to study what they believe is the problem, i.e, celibacy, sexuality, women priests -- How frightening! They don't get it! This is the university that has produced many 'fine' democratic politicians who say they are Catholic and yet vote for the death of millions of babies! So maybe, Michael, you are entirely correct!

The problem is INfidelity, apostasy from the truth!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 16, 2002.

Gail, Brian, Kathy, Cathy, Mary Lu, Eugene, Fred,

Thanks for your replies. You offered more insites into this issue. I now blame us all for our state of affairs, from the newly baptised to the top of the clergy. We are all one and all answerable for the state of the Church today. Eugene, I think I must have not explained clearly, I meant this: When we see failures in the current state of the priesthood "aren't we laity only getting what we deserve because of our own bad moral lives". Thanks Gail for clarificatons on that already.

By the way, the place I heard the summary question, "Does The Laity Get The Priesthood It Deserves?" was from a good priest's grandmother. Some of those Grandma's got it together.

Gail, what you state about the Catholic University in Boston is disheartening. Their solution to OUR problem would seem to "hack at the branches of evil" not at the roots. All of us have to begin right where we are with our own selves and those nearest us. Then, with perseverence in this effort, the needed priesthood will come. But we have to begin at the proper beginning point and the "cure" won't come fast like our drive-up window lives tend to suggest we ought to hope for.

-- Mike H (mchael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 16, 2002.

--I meant this: When we see failures in the current state of the priesthood "aren't we laity only getting what we deserve because of our own bad moral lives".

If we do or don't get the priesthood we deserve, it begs the question: WHAT is the current state? The ''current'' state is what it has ALWAYS been, Mike.

The Catholic Church is every bit as HOLY now as it was in the days of the heretics, and the days of the Borgia popes, and the days of the Inquisition. She weathered the storms, bringing millions of souls to God. She is doing so today, and I count you as one of them.

There is nothing about the Church's ''state'' or the priesthood's to be ashamed of!

What is evil and shameful is a scattering, a small number --of horrendous sinners who had no qualms taking advantage of young boys in the holy sacristy! We have SINNERS for priests; but this doesn't put the priesthood in a deplorable ''state''.

It puts the sinners in scandal, and the bishops who covered up for them. A scandal is just that, it is not the state of the priesthood.

Am I dreaming??? NO-- for every evil, deceptive, predator pedophile, sacrilegious priest, the Church can count ten thousand good, holy and even saintly priests! Like the ones Gail tells us about. And my own parish priests. The state of the priesthood isn't evil, or scandalous. It just gets no front-page publicity. It gets tarred with the same brush, even by unthinking Catholics!

Therefore, is a lax laity being ''given'' a false priesthood? Of course not. We have a holy priesthood, thanks to God's own providence. But it isn't for ourselves. It's the Church who has them; and they are God's, not ours. We can't allow the mentality of the media frenzy to rattle us. Our faith is in Jesus Christ; we are behind all the holy priests, not the evil few. We do care about sin, and about our own responsibilities, and the welfare of the young. The priests in our holy Church also care. Why are they now supposed to run for cover? The vast majority have done nothing to be ashamed of. If the seminary needs reform, let it reform.

We pray for new, holy vocations. Above all, we put our unwavering faith in God. He will restore peace in our souls, if we pray! Let's pray also for the holy intercession of the Most Blessed Virgin Mary. May she help us now, as the serpent grovels under her heel! He knows she's on our side forever. Pity the evil one!

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

To All,

So far, I have not heard the "entire" priesthood being slandered by anyone. Where did that come from? I think every intelligent person, catholic and non-catholic, alike, 'know' that not all priests are abusing children.

Everyone I speak with supports our good priests, knowing that the numbers are small.

Eugene, I tend to disagree with you about our priests serving God only. Yes, their call is to serve God, but aren't we 'all' called to serve God? We, the laity, are the flock and isn't it the responsiblity of the priests to serve his flock, to save our souls? Maybe I have a misunderstanding here. When I say serve, I don't mean the priests are to serve us individually and meet all of our needs, but isn't it his job to serve us 'spiritually' and do whatever is in his power to bring us closer to God?

Priests, I have come to learn, are human beings just like us. Some are very good at what they do, and some are not. In this day and age of priests shortage, many of our priests have become business administrators and do not have the time to perform their priestly duties - that is why the lay people are doing more.

Also, I do believe that American priests have gotten spoiled to some degree. They play golf three times a week, go to the movies, plays, the beach, dinner, live in beautiful homes, and drive very nice cars. I know I am going to get blasted for this, but the life of the 'American' priests is not that humble, sorry, but true....at least where I live it is the case. I will not take responsibility for the sins of our fathers and I don't understand that statement at all.

Eugene, you said, "Yes, the children are victims of men's inhumanity. But Christ is more important than all the children of this world." Yes, Christ is more important than any human beings (in our eyes) but in the eyes of Jesus, 'all' are important - especially, the children and I will spend the rest of my days speaking out for the children as Jesus would want me to. Jesus does not want any child harmed in any way and they are very important to Him.

I think the difference between yesteryears and today as far as the numbers of priests we have is because years ago most catholic children attended catholic schools where we were guided and nourished about our faith on a daily basis. CCD classes once a week do not provide that same education, guidance. Of course, education begins at home, but catholic schooling provided an atmosphere of learning that does not exists today.

More kids go to public schools now. Years ago, the nuns and brothers had a strong influence on kids and 'knew' who may have had the calling and could encourage that calling. Our kids don't have that today.

Years ago, 'families' went to church 'together.' The family structure is different today - everything has changed.

Perhaps God has a plan regarding this scandal. It is forcing everyone to stop and 'think.' I have no doubt that the church is going to come back stronger and purified - holier than it has ever been before, no doubt about that at all.

But, I still say the children will live with the scars forever and my compassion for them will never change. I would like to see more support for them. MaryLu

-- marlborocat@yahoo.com (mlc327@juno.com), May 16, 2002.

Thanks, Eugene, for clarifying your point, and point well taken. I don't think anyone was trying to say the Church isn't holy because of the present crisis. At least, I wasn't. I am talking about the civil war within the church which I think is becoming quite obvious.

There is a scripture, I believe in Corinthians, where Paul condemns the various divisions in the church and he says to 'some degree divisions must occur so that what is approved may become apparent.' Well, I think we sort of see that happening now because the liberal or secular thinking Catholics are coming forth and grouping themselves off from the teachings of the church; under the guise of 'reformation' they are becoming quite an apparent scism.

Like Kathy pointed out, in Protestantism, liberal branches exist is Lutheranism, Methodism, Presbyterianism, etc. where they have totally cut themselves off from their more orthodox brethren, and created their own faction. Any thoughts out there on this?

You know in the book of Thessalonians Paul says that before the Lord returns there will be 'the great apostasy,' or falling away from the faith. Could we be seeing the beginnings of this?

Thanks, and maybe I should have started a new thread!

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 16, 2002.

Dear Marlborocat
You didn't suppose I said the children would be abandoned to their fate, did you? I'm happy to say I agree with you in this.

I'm hoping a proper idea of what Christ means to us can help you see what I really said. We hear ''Children, Oh NO!!!''

On all sides! You have the knee-jerk response of three-fourths of all Americans, save the children!!!

But if the children are threatened, we save them. If God is outraged, no one seems to notice. That's why I wrote what I did.

I was abused as a four-year old boy. Not by a priest; but abused sexually. When you say: ''I still say the children will live with the scars forever,'' let me say to you-- No, they won't be scarred forever-- That is just the psycho-babble everybody wants to believe. I wasn't pulverized, I was used as a plaything. And I'm proof that scars heal.

Many of the ''boys'' who come out as victims today weren't children; they were teens. They may be scarred, who can say? But save the maudlin over-reaction for those boys who get into crack addiction, crime and habitual sin. They're the ones we are rightly worried for, not the altar boy who was betrayed. He will survive. God will help him survive; just pray for him.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

Eugene,

You are one of the lucky ones that is not scarred forever - most children of abuse - any kind of abuse, sexual, physcial or emotional abuse live with those scars forever!

Yes, scars heal....and scars can be turned into stars (with the right help) but the pain never completely goes away. I know several people who have been abused in one way or another, have gone to therapy, have made tremendous progress in their lives - have families and successful careers, but the pain is still there and every once in a while they continue to struggle with emotional issues - like depression, insecurity, etc....let us say, that have to work at life a little harder than the rest of us - so, again, I disagree with you on this issue - but that is okay to disagree.

We both are entitled to our opinions - you have yours, I have mine - let us not take our differences personally.

There are two things I will spend the rest of my life defending, and fighting for - abused children, and the rights of the elderly - another forgotten group in our society.

To me, human beings come before an institution. I will defend my church always, but will defend the human being first.

BTW, my name is MaryLu - marlborocat is my work address MaryLu (Full name is Maria Lucia Anna Caterina) That has nothing to do with anything, but just thought I would throw that in. :)

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 16, 2002.

Marlborocat (Mary Lu?),

I think we are a bit on the same wave lenghth here. I think today, people take their faith/religion with a grain of salt. Parents are often divided in their religion, some attending MASS/Services seperatly. The children often going where the moms do.

As I said earlier, I don't know much about the shortage of priest's, but if there is a shortage in most denominations as Cathy pointed out, then I do not see how celibacy is part of the problem.

I still think IMO, people leave the teachings up to the church, it is not encouraged enough in the home.

When I was a kid, my mother always said to me before I left the house, "be good, Jesus is always watching". That was enough for me to think before I acted!

I would like to know at what age do most clergy hear their calling? Maybe Jeffery, you could answer this one?

Jesus has many gifts for us, but if we aren't paying attention, I mean close attention to Him, how will we know what gifts he has in store for us?

I hesitate to say this, but for an example I will. I was blessed with long hair, my hair grows VERY fast. Is there a reason for this? Yes. God game me the GIFT of long hair so that I would share it with those who have none. Had I not been paying close attention to my gifts given to me from Jesus, I may never have realized what I was supposed to do with it.

If one is not paying attention to his gifts from Jesus, then how is he going to hear his calling to the priesthood?

"Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you saying, "This is the way; walk in it." Isaiah 30:21

My two cents again of course.

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 16, 2002.

Dear Kathy,

Whether you turn to the right or to the left, your ears will hear a voice behind you saying, "This is the way; walk in it." Isaiah 30:21

That is one of my favorite verses in the Bible, it is so beautiful. I don't know why, but when I read that verse, I can just 'see' Jesus walking beside me saying - "This way...come follow me."

I am glad you brought up 'gifts.' God has given us all gifts. It takes time for some of us to realize what those gifts are, but once we know them, we are to use those gifts to bring glory to God. There are so many gifts given to people - talent for music, writing, art, dance, caregiving, just to name a few - and all these gifts can be used to bring glory to His name - by serving, by sharing our gift with others who need us, etc....Saying yes is the easy part - following through on that 'yes' is the difficult part. It requires commitment and sometimes we can lose our motivation.

We don't always have to do 'big' things, but we must put lots of love into what we do. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 16, 2002.

I agree with Brian, but I would also say, that the problem is further. There is no incentive to sit in front of a crucifix and meditate on Our Lord if there is no belief in the real presence. I believe that this whole dropping priesthood problem is not due to any sort of social problems but due to Satan alone. By ensuring a form of worship which is not conducive to belief in the Real Presence of Our Lord and relegates the sacrosanct dignity of the priesthood to that of a president of an assembly, the priests no longer feel the push behind their vocation - thus, they turn to all kinds of vices and the dropping rate. A president of an assembly lowers the dignity of the priesthood to that of one who is raised to his position by the consent of his PEERS. What incentive would there be for the priest to follow rigid laws which do not apply to other people who are not that much different from himself? None. There is no incentive to become a priest because, through the loss of the expressions which support faith in the Real Presence and the assembly attitude of the New Mass, the Priesthood feels as though there is no sacrosanct dignity which belongs solely to them.

God Bless.

In Christo, Magdalene

-- magdalene (mkane@smac.edu), May 16, 2002.

Dear MaryLu;
With all respect, don't be offended by this:

Is your idea of being happy when nothing ever gives you any trauma, you live life wrapped in cotton-wool, no one ever raises his voice to you, you never suffer a setback?

What does this mean: ''[Some]made tremendous progress in their lives - have families and successful careers, but the pain is still there and every once in a while they continue to struggle with emotional issues - like depression, insecurity, etc....''

''The pain is still there!'' MaryLu, this is the world! Pain is a part of life, whether you like it or not. If this were Paradise, no good person would ever have to die. Why can't a young man accept pain? Is pain the most evil, unhealthy thing imaginable? Would you prefer a ''painless'' environment, like you see on TV, on the Bill Cosby show? Those are fiction!

The very fact you say some ''have made tremendous progress in their lives - have families and successful careers,'' is proof-- that you aren't doomed to unhappiness over a bad incident in your childhood. That's a fictitious idea. Pain is good for us, if it will help us draw near to God.

Which is my particular story. I live a life you have no idea what pain I went through. (Not abuse-- but congenital, unavoidable pain and unhappiness!) I turned my soul toward God, as a teenager. He heard my prayer, and comforted me; and I returned His love. I learned to cope. Now after 42 years, I'm married to the finest woman I ever met. She turned my night into day. I'm convinced she came to me directly from God. WHY? He rewarded my faith.

Those ''scars'' you find so tragic? They don't exist. Most people of faith rebound, they fight back. Victims of abuse don't all have to be cowards and quitters. They have to cope, and grow out of it.

What some of them are, in fact-- is opportunists. Not all of them; the ones who run for a lawyer, instead of trusting in God. If the scars hurt so much, MaryLu, why have none of them felt ashamed to tell the whole world? First of all the lawyers that they expect will make them rich? Because pain goes away, and what they want is revenge. Don't go for the media spin. Right now, pray for the children, yes. And imprison the offenders, damn right! But, more so pray for the Church; that God give us all patience and understanding. --Remember; at the top I asked you not to take offense. God bless you now.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

"If the scars hurt so much, MaryLu, why have none of them felt ashamed to tell the whole world?"

Wow, Eugene. I can't believe you really mean that. This is such an emotionally charged topic for you. Do you REALLY mean this? Surely you aren't suggesting that victims sit back and say nothing. Surely you don't think it would have been better to have simply continued in the status quo of cover up and pay-offs? I have a PhD in psychology, and I'm sorry, but the scars are real and long lasting. Anything is possible with prayer, but Eugene, these are CHILDREN. If you honestly were able to recover without having the abuse impact you, you are one of the very few.

-- Farrell Weiers (fweiers@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

Dear Farrell--
Congratulations on your PhD; I dropped out of high school. But I experienced sexual abuse myself. I was taken advantage of by a teenaged relative when I was only 3 or 4.

Yes, in my heart I was offended. But, I learned to stay away from him; he never was punished. I eventually forgave him.

Am I Superman? No. I'm human, and I understand the mechanics of self-esteem, trauma, insecurity, etc.,

Psychologists have it that nobody else understands these things. They think ''counselling'' and ''therapy'' make it all understandable.

It sure plays into the hands of the legal profession. One elitist profession scratching another one's. But it's mostly a vanity of our modern society. Humans survived OK without the shrink and the tort lawyer for most of human history.

Not that I condone in any possible way the actions of predators who take advantage of minors. No way. --I just wish the touchy-feely justifications had no part in these litigations. Lock those evil men up, throw away the key. Make the hierarchy come to terms with their failure to protect the innocent; and reform the abuse taking place in our seminaries.

As a believing Christian, I'm completely faithful to the Church, because I KNOW there are many thousands of holy and pure priests; and they will be true to their vows even if many others failed. Their consciences are clear. Your statement:

''. . . but Eugene, these are CHILDREN. If you honestly were able to recover without having the abuse impact you, you are one of the very few.''

---Is specious. Why am I not entitled to say what I believe? Because you have the PhD? Were you a victim? If not, how do you know I'm one of the ''very few''??? Common sense is just as good. Children grow up. They're resilient. There are children in Kosovo who have seen atrocities, not what I suffered, and they will survive. It's how the world lives, Farrell. God gives us the grace and the courage to face each new day. That's what the psychologists never admit. They want to spoon-feed you from the womb to the tomb. It's their living! They make their bread from other folks' misfortunes.

By the way; not all who are accusing these bad priests were children, when the alleged offenses took place. They may've been minors. Which is BAD! I know that. --But the term ''children'' repeated every day as a staple in the media --is another way the touchy-feelies justify wholesale bashing of the Catholic priesthood.

You may ask why I make such a deal out of it? Because; nobody stands up for the GOOD priests in the news media; and hardly anywhere else. Even good Catholics are openly saying they're going to stop contributing to the Church. These are the ones joining the frenzy. Somebody should speak up for the Church, shouldn't (I-) we?

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

Kathy, Marylu is not the Marlborocat(spelling).

Even I can rember the "cat". God bless"the Holy face."

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 16, 2002.

Hi, Mike.

I can tell you are a "wise man" (sometimes)." It's not what you say, but how you say it".`(sometimes). Please Pray for me. I do Pray for you, Mike.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 16, 2002.

David,

Mary Lu stated that marlborocat is her work address, and she signed her name Mary Lu prior to the marlborocat e-mail address. She also gave her full name to Eugene after explaining that marlborocat is her work address.

Is there a reason you suspect that marlborocat is not Mary Lu? Or are you assuming, the way you assumed I was Carolyn Bishop and a relative of Fred Bishop's?

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 16, 2002.

Eugene - You maybe suffering from PTS - Post Trauma Syndrome - which was not officially reccognised until post war Vietnam. You seem to to be in full denial as this subject " irritates " you.

One of the most basic defense methods for an abused child is to emotinally go so close to the offender so as to complete void there intent of harm. You defend the Church far too much here it appears to the extent you would not say foo-foo is you had a mouthful.

With the issue of priest shortage as mentioned by some as it no longer attracts compared to wordly goods. The day of a priest living a humble life is fantasy although there are few is gone.

Most have a lifestyle many would do anything for. International travel, accomodations and foods, many with semi-luxury car etc: etc:. Total and complete health care up to and including cosmetic surgery if required. Free access to most country clubs. I estimate they have a income of $100,000.00 or more were they in the work force.

We have seemingly lost a generation in the 60's and 70's who are now parents. How often have we heard a parent telling a child do not do what I did being drugs etc:?

Phillip Wylie a British Sociologist wrote a book in 1943 outling what he thought the near futute would hold. The title is " Generation Of Vipers which would emerge in the 90's. A most stunning prediction of a study.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 16, 2002.

Eugene, In answer to your question, "Is your idea of being happy when nothing ever gives you any trauma, you live life wrapped in cotton-wool, no one ever raises his voice to you, you never suffer a setback?"

Most certainly not - My idea of happiness is one word and one word only....."Jesus" - no one makes me happy like he does - no human being on earth...Does that answer your question, Eugene?

As for sexual molestion, I totally disagree with your views on this whole issue and refuse to discuss it any further with you. Your views do not make any sense to me at all...

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@yahoo.com), May 16, 2002.

Jean:

I'm satisfied in this much at least. That when I'm disagreeing with something you believe, that's the sure sign I am in God's grace. Everything you say in this last post is a laugh. You make claims that not even an idiot would dare to make. I think I see now what has affected you-- too many dirty novels. I have no way to contradict the false ideas you think you know. Why? I can't write fiction. You live in a different universe.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

Eugene - should you be blessed with forgiveness then of course we all applaud you. If not then your in denial and in a disassociated state plain and simple. Your universe in part is self made and therefore your comfort zone.

I think here of the film Agnes Of God which outlined the problem.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 17, 2002.

Yes, Jean. --We are all failures if we don't see the things you see; no matter where you've seen them.

Give us your reviews; you find wisdom out of the gutter. A sound source of ''comfort'' for you?
Oui! Ooo-lala !

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 17, 2002.

Eugene and anyone interested,

Regardless of how many holy priests we have, it would be a saintly orientation to have the courage to accept criticism. Even if it was a false accusation we might rejoice because we would have been found worthy to be persecuted for the sake of his name. However, these scandals are not false accusations and we are in the business of morality. Morality 'R' Us, if you will, is on the marquee at Church. Thus the scandals are a supreme embarrassment, and in order to bring change, we ALL ought to feel it. And to the point of this thread, if we see such and such amount of scandal in the clergy then you can bet it is present to a much greater degree of severity among the laity.

It matters not how many other denominations have scandals; it matters not how many other priests are holy today. We in America, as a group, are lame Catholics today and that is the plain truth. And God will take his grace and send it elsewhere as a response to our own choices. Why are so many non-Catholic Pentecostals today graced with the gift of tongues? Maybe they will eventually be new life for the Church? Is that one place our graces have gone?

Today I read in the Jesuit magazine, "America", that there is not really a priest shortage when mass attendance is considered. Mass attendance is so low that we have priest to laity coverage comparable to the 1960's. Then if you add in deacons, since Vatican II, who took on some of the work and also consider lay ministry, there is actually less need for priests today than 40 years ago but mostly because there is less attendance by American Catholics to the mass and the sacraments. We American Catholics, as a group, are lame. God will raise up stones if need be and Americans will be cut off. We all need to do more penance and evangelization, from the newly baptized to the top of the clergy. God needs laborers now. We need to do the work we are suppose to do and then say to ourselves "we are unworthy sons and daughters because we only did as we were suppose to do", and then the priests will emerge from that attitude.

Pray for us.

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 17, 2002.

Hi, Kathy.

I rember another "Marlboro Cat" e-mail address, that someone was using about 6 weeks ago in this forum. That's what I was refering too. I didn't read the post about a work e-mail, though. Thanks for telling me that. I learn something new everyday in this forum.

God bless you.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 17, 2002.

Dear Mike:
I'm glad you have arrived at these conclusions. You are not telling me something I didn't realise. I'm not speaking to a whole denomination on these threads, but to some individual posters. If I'm lacking (apparently) in charity with a few, it isn't from antagonism, or defensiveness. It's because they don't know what they're talking about, usually.

When I counter with the question, ''what is the state of the priesthood?'' I ask you to measure the distance there is between the errant few and their holy counterparts, who number in many thousands. Or does this seem like I'm covering up our sins??? Let me paste what I said above:

*Our faith is in Jesus Christ; we are behind all the holy priests, not the evil few. We do care about sin, and about our own responsibilities, and the welfare of the young. The priests in our holy Church also care. Why are they now supposed to run for cover? The vast majority have done nothing to be ashamed of. If the seminary needs reform, let it reform.*

And I repeat, let's all pray for new vocations. If they come from the ranks of ''non-Catholic pentecostals'', of all places-- let God's will be done.

All the other points you make seem irrelevant to me, in the present matters. Church attendence, or your fear: ''And God will take his grace and send it elsewhere as a response to our own choices. Why are so many non-Catholic Pentecostals today graced with the gift of tongues? Maybe they will eventually be new life for the Church? Is that one place our graces have gone?''

--Doesn't make me, for one, very apprehensive. I'll stop and think about it when a carismatic pentecostal worships the Blessed Sacrament. If you find it impressive they have a grace for speaking in tongues, that's your privelege, Mike. I was never overwhelmed by these demonstrations. I truly doubt God is forsaking His Church and taking His grace elsewhere. Not if attendenace in Mass varies from parish to parish (my church is bursting at the seams every Sunday Mass) or any other ''sign of the times''.

Your sound advice I DO accept. To mind our own repentence; and not to judge too harshly what the ignorant say about our faith. They are really like lost lambs; and just like you do, we must pray for them; and pray for eventual unity under one Sepherd. But all that is elementary. --Thanks for your attention to my words. God be with you, give you grace and keep you from all harm and misfortune.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 17, 2002.

Hi, Kathy.

If I didn't explain myself so you understand me, in my last post. I can and will do a better job for you, if you want? I didn't assume anything about Marylu. I do understand some things a little better, now, though! I understand why, Marylu had a attitude with me right from the start.

I hope you take my word with this, and we can get back to learning about Catholicism. Buy like I said, I can do a better job if need be for you. I would also hope Marylu will take my word too.

God bless you.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 17, 2002.

David,

A little misunderstanding it seems. Your original post threw me off, I didn't know where it was coming from.

David, no need to explain any further.

I think we can move on from this, huh? :-)

God Bless,

-- Kathy (sorry@nomail.com), May 17, 2002.

Eugene,

I am glad we see it the same way. One small clarification, on God sending his grace elsewhere. The removal of grace from his children is not God's Will of course, however, God will do his creating somewhere if those he first chose now reject his love. Not all of those "first borns", that is, long standing Catholics, now reject him, but a good portion of Americans who are in abundance get thinking they don't need to pray or worship any more. Or they worship weakly and out of habit only. So God finds others to replace those. He might begin with tongues. Tongues is not impressive in comparison to other gifts but it is the beginners gift, so it is a sign that the Church is beginning in the hearts of others as a free gift from God. And among those with the gift of tongues there are probably some with higher gifts.

We saw this in the Old Testament when most of the Jews rejected Christ so he went to the Gentiles. In today's situation, there is not a Newer Covenant to replace the New Covenant, so that much is not analogous, but there is a similar situation going on, perhaps. We are called to renew ourselves or be cut off.

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 18, 2002.

Mike,
It was revealed by Saint Paul, there comes in time a great apostacy. He tells us many will drop away from the faith. The remnant is also promised; True Believers who keep the Word of God. But the remnant is sure to be Christ's own Church; and added to her in the last days will be the people of Israel. Coming at last to know their Messiah and Lord. Then the return of Jesus is at hand. Nothing about our day and age should alarm us. It was written from the start.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 18, 2002.

Hello, Mike H.
You wrote:
"I have been told from a good man that the laity gets the priesthood it deserves. So does it? Are we all to blame and the news is really pointing at ALL of us for the scandals and for the priest shortage. And if so, what am I going to do about it. How can I better do God's will today, in light of these troubles?"

The answer to the first question is "yes" and "no." (Actually Fr. Thomas Dubay made that statement first, about 15 years ago, as the title of an article in "Homiletic and Pastoral Review." His answer then was "yes," but since then it has emerged that, while the laity contributes to its priesthood's goodness or badness (and to the number of its priests), the bishops also contribute in a big way to the priesthood's goodness or badness (and to the number of priests).

I am glad that you are being weaned away from belief that celibacy is the cause of anything bad (e.g., too few priests or abusive priests). I notice that you mentioned reading "America" magazine. Now I know how you could have gotten that wrong idea about celibacy -- from "America" or similar dissident sources of information. I strongly urge everyone to steer clear of "America." There are now a dozen or more good, orthodox Catholic magazines of varying types (spirituality, news, apologetics, etc.) -- so much good reading that no one ever has to waste precious time and money on reading the works of dissenters. In my opinion, fewer than 1/4 of Jesuit authors today can be trusted, and their works do not appear in "America."

Now, getting back to the subject of your post ... How do the laity (and clergy, including episcopacy) contribute to the pockets of priest shortages and the presence of evil priests? [Oops! Another tangent ... Notice that I mentioned "pockets of priest shortages." Worldwide there is no overall shortage. I just heard that the number of seminarians has grown during this pope's reign (24 years) from 68,000+ to 110,000+. There is no need for married priests in the Latin Church.] Here is a my list of reasons for localized shortages and abuse problems:

1. Many clergy, since 1965, being silent about, or wrongly instructing laity about, the evils of contraception. This led to much smaller families (often 0, 1, or 2 children -- sometimes no boys). Many men whom God wanted to call were thus never given a chance to be conceived. At least one study has shown that most priests active today are from families that have four or more children.

2. Selfish parents of "baby-boom" age. Some could have had more children (including some boys that God would have called to priesthood [and girls to sisterhood]), if only they had cared enough about holiness to make sacrifices -- doing without luxuries like second and third cars, maid service, ritzy vacations, etc.. Instead they contracepted. Then, if they happened to have one son, he felt pressured to carry on the family name and produce a grandchild or two.

3. Radical feminism, resulting in many women unnecessarily working away from home (and using contraception and sterilization to do so) -- thus being unwilling or unable to have more children (including those God would have called to priesthood and sisterhood).

4. Exploding divorce, caused especially by unfaithfulness (again made possible by contraception) and other tensions (see #3, for example). Divorce leads to fewer babies than God intended (some of whom he would have called to priesthood and sisterhood).

5. Hedonism galore -- the pursuit of pleasure by clergy and parents, who then infected young men and boys with the same. Clergy, teachers (especially nuns), and parents used to encourage boys to consider whether they may have a priestly vocation. From perhaps 1965 to 1980, there was a huge drop in this kind of encouragement, and the unwillingness to encourage is still present in many (arch)dioceses. It happens because clergy and parents don't want to ask young men to sacrifice the "good things" in life -- money in the bank, a spouse, entertainment, fancy house, etc..

6. Public immorality galore -- the lure of "the world and the flesh" that makes young men with vocations turn their attention instead to shacking up or addictions to pornography, drugs, and alcoholism.

7. Putrid seminaries, resulting from errors by bishops -- i.e., gross carelessness in hiring rectors and teachers, ignoring the preparation of deficient curricula by the faculty, allowing themselves to be pressured by radical feminists and other assorted fringe elements (to teach liturgical abuses, to suppress loyalty to the pope, emphasis on confession and devotions, etc.), loss of zealous attachment to some tenets of the Faith, too loose standards for entry in one area (allowing in men with Same-Sex Attraction Disorder), and too tight standards for entry in another area (turning away, or expelling, men with true vocations because they were orthodox Catholics). Many good men entered seminaries, but then left after being disgusted at the pervasive homosexual subculture and sinful behaviors.

Number 7 has been instrumental in causing the sexual abuse crisis, in my opinion. Anyone who doubts these things needs to read the blockbuster book, "Goodbye, Good Men," by Michael Rose. [Be sure to click on the "Feedback" link.]
The archbishop of Omaha has written the following: "I personally think the vocation 'crisis' in this country is more artificial and contrived than many people realize. When dioceses and religious communities are unambiguous about ordained priesthood and vowed religious life as the Church defines these calls; when there is strong support for vocations, and a minimum of dissent about the male celibate priesthood and religious life loyal to the magisterium; when bishop, priests, Religious and lay people are united in vocation ministry —- then there are documented increases in the numbers of candidates who respond to the call. It seems to me that the vocation 'crisis' is precipitated and continued by people who want to change the Church's agenda, by people who do not support orthodox candidates loyal to the magisterial teaching of the Pope and bishops, and by people who actually discourage viable candidates from seeking priesthood and vowed religious life as the Church defines the ministries.

"I am personally aware of certain vocation directors, vocation teams and evaluation boards who turn away candidates who do not support the possibility of ordaining women or who defend the Church's teaching about artificial birth control, or who exhibit a strong piety toward certain devotions, such as the Rosary. When there is a determined effort to discourage orthodox candidates from priesthood and religious life, then the vocation shortage which results is caused not by a lack of vocations but by deliberate attitudes and policies that deter certain viable candidates. And the same people who precipitate a decline in vocations by their negative actions call for the ordination of married men and women to replace the vocations they have discouraged. They have a death wish for ordained priesthood and vowed religious life as the Church defines them. They undermine the vocation ministry they are supposed to champion. ... "

"I am convinced that shortages of vocations in any part of the country can be reversed by people who share enthusiastically in the agenda of the Church. We have to learn from the dioceses and communities who are experiencing an increase in vocations. ... Young people do not want to commit themselves to dioceses or communities that permit or simply ignore dissent from Church doctrine. They do not want to be associated with people who are angry at the Church's leadership or reject magisterial teaching. They do not want to be battered by agendas that are not the Church's, and radical movements that disparage their desire to be priests, Religious or loyal lay leaders in the Church.

"The dioceses and religious communities that promote orthodoxy and loyalty to the Church; the ones that mobilize priests and people to call young men to the ordained priesthood despite the opposition of those who rail against a male, celibate priesthood; the ones that want their members to be real churchmen and churchwomen that are committed to prayer and holiness as a primary requisite —- these are the dioceses and communities that will enjoy increasing numbers of candidates and will disprove the forecasts of decline in vocations everywhere in the Church because of their successes locally. ... Vocations are out there for those who will collaborate together to personally invite candidates for the right reasons and with unabashed fidelity to the magisterial teaching of the Church."

Now, Mike H., with these facts now out in the open, perhaps you can say what you or we should do to improve the situation.

God bless you.
John

-- J. F. Gecik (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 19, 2002.

John,

Now for my illustrious opinion toward the solution. I am not much of an administrator so I don't mention solutions potentially implemented by the Church administration. Pardon my sentence fragments.

I think I need to imitate the Lives of Saints and that of Jesus Christ, at least change my own self and be an example to all I can. Seek the Gospel life of simple living and simple faith. Look to amazing saints like St. Francis of Assisi and St. Dominic who began the mendicant friars movement, also look to St. Antony the desert hermit and the founders of monasticism. Also look to the modern patron of priests, St. John Vianney, as a model for how to be priestly today. Also, study writings of a favorite doctor of the Church. I like St. Alphonsus Liguori. This means a personal commitment to the traditions of prayer, fasting (from excess) and almsgiving and the evangelical counsels of poverty, chastity and obedience. I should possibly join a third order religious. I think I should expect sufferings. I should find Catholic friends to do these things with. I must go to daily mass if possible and Eucharistic adoration regularly. Pray the rosary daily. Immerse myself in scripture and the Church with participation in a Catholic bible study group. If I begin with truth, which are "humble beginnings", then it will grow, all the while quietly and patiently working to foster virtue in myself without a lot of purchased items or control of others to do it. Play, humor and hobbies help too and these are needed in proportion. Expect pain.

Expect the Cross.

Good to hear from you John. Thanks for the warning about “America” magazine. I will avoid it. I wondered about its authenticity. My own impulsiveness gets me in trouble the most and perhaps only sometimes it is because of bad information sources.

Thanks for the facts list. That was very thorough and disturbing.

God Bless You

-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), May 20, 2002.

Thanks, Mike.
I think that your suggestions -- your remedies -- are excellent!
JFG

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 24, 2002.