I am hoping someone is familiar enough with the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible to help me.

At the end of one of my AA meetings, we always end with saying the Our Father. However, they end it with "For thine is the kingdom, power, and glory" which I recognize from Mass. Also, because my father is protestant, I knew they had a different version. But why is this so? I looked at a few versions of the Bible, and the only ones that had this phrase was the KJV and New KJV. Why do they have it in Matthew 6:13 but the Douay-Rheims, New American Bible, Revised Standard, New Revised Standard versions do not?

Secondly, where in Scripture is the thine is the kingdom verse that we use in Mass at?

Thanks and God Bless!

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 15, 2002

Answers

I did find 1 Chronicles 29:11 Thine, O LORD, is the greatness, and the power, and the glory, and the victory, and the majesty; for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is thine; thine is the kingdom, O LORD, and thou art exalted as head above all.

So I guess that answers the second question. But how about the first?

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 15, 2002.

Sounds as if someone made some changes to the KJV for their own use. Nasty thing to do. Why I have no Idea.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

Fred - please stay with the program of learning. As to the official Bible Catholics are said to follow the Vulgate Edition. Officially there are eleven renditions of the bible circulating the world.

The KJV is most read due to historical factors after all Britannia ruled the waves over 200 years and the sun never set on it's kingdom.

Some historical reading of the development is fun and entertaining. Some editions are very valuable due to word changes etc:. I have a Bible dated 1856 produced in Gothic Print from Germany. A treasure I feel.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 15, 2002.

The source of the "For the kingdom, power, etc" part is the fact that sometime in the Middle Ages (or earlier) a monk, in copying out a Bible, wrote it in as his own "commentary", kind of penning it in on the side. When future translations were made by the King James folks, they erroneously picked this up and incorporated it into their translation.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), May 15, 2002.

Thanks Christina now this member knows where it came from.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 15, 2002.

Christina,

Thanks. Do you remember where you read or heard about this?

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 16, 2002.

Jean

Don't lecture me satan.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

About the words "thine is...." at the end of the Pater The JERUSALEM BIBLE in a footnote comments that this is an addition from the Liturgy of the Mass that eventually got into the text. Those words do not appear in the text itself.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 16, 2002.

Here is another addition to the text:

"7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. 8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood" KJV I Jo 5,

Sometimes during the Middle Ages Bible copyists added marginal commentaries to the biblical text. Often another later copyist intead of leaving the commentary on the margin included it in the text. If you check this text in new Bible versions you'll notice that these words do not appear.

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 16, 2002.

BTW if you want to see the PATER in more than 1000 languages visit this site: http://www.christusrex.org/www1/pater/index.html

Enrique

-- Enrique Ortiz (eaortiz@yahoo.com), May 16, 2002.

Jean

For your information. I AM with the program. And I am right too. It is an error in the KJV. What do you want GRAPES..

-- Fred bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

Fred - your abviously in need of counciling as your posts are showing a disassoicated state more and more these past days. I say this not in anger.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 16, 2002.

Jean take your head somewhere else --THANKS.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

Glenn, I somehow remember reading it in an old edition of the Catholic Encyclopedia I used to have, but I couldn't find much about it in the online edition (under "Lord's Prayer") but they do mention there that it was an interpolation. One of my Bible commentaries mentions that this was a "Syriac" insertion - I remember that it was an Eastern copyist that inserted the phrase. Maybe if you have a Bible commentary you can check what it says for Luke 6:9+.

-- Christina (introibo2000@yahoo.com), May 16, 2002.

Hi, Glenn.

I am happy to see you posting again on a regular basis here. I do rember you in my Prayers. I always love reading your well thought out posts.

Here are some Holy Saints that might be able to give you a hand with a Prayer or two. St. John of God, St. Martin of Toures, St.Matthias the Apostle, St Monica, St. Urban of Langres.

Are your wife and your self still teaching the Children about Catholicism, on Sunday mornings? God bless you Glenn.

David S

-- David (David@excite.com), May 22, 2002.

Glenn~From the Jerome Biblical Commentary:

The passage in which you speak is a doxology and is found in many Gk mss; The presence of a similar doxology in the Didache, a work written before AD100, suggests that the doxology is a very early expansion. It was normal in Judaism to conclude prayers with a formal doxology, and the early Christian communities often followed the Jewish practice. The doxology, however, is not found in the most reliable mss. It has been used in the Protestant churches; it is sheer accident that it did not appear in the Gk mss that Jerome used in transalating the Vg.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), May 22, 2002.

Thanks everyone for their posts. They all helped me understand the addition to Jesus' words.

David S,

Thanks for the nice words and the list of saints. Things have been going better for me lately and I have had a little extra time.

Our PSR class ended about a month ago. We have already agreed to do it again next year. In fact, we were talking last night and we feel we need to continue for many years. The reason being how we both feel about the books used in PSR. They need supplemented with good ole catechism teaching.

-- Glenn (glenn@excite.com), May 22, 2002.

When discussing this with our Priest, he said that in the Jewish world, it would be out of place to end a prayer with the word "evil."

I don't know if that would have any bearing on origin for the more formal ending for the prayer, but it always seemed to make sense to me.

-- Leon (vol@weblink2000.net), December 19, 2003.