A Home Office Minister yesterday was talking to an audience of police officers. He was discussung some intricate detail of something and referred to the "nitty gritty".

An officer came up to him afterwards and gently reminded him the the phrase "nitty gritty" is considered racist and was banned in most police forces. On the radio this morning this was confirmed by a number of officers from all over.

Why? Because apparently it refers to what was left over in the bilges of a slave ship after a long voyage. The black community find it offensive.

As a point of balance, a top lexicographer (??? anyway - a word specialist) came on the radio this am and said that the first time he could find any reference to "nitty gritty" was from the 1950's. He suggested that for two centuries to be 'in use' but not written down would be highly unusual. He also suggested that it sounded like someone had possibly made up the definition ref slave ships etc

A number of Carribean /African origin / black (what's the current PC Term?) people came on and said that yes, they were 'deeply offended'by the use of this term.

People, I think you can now officially and finally call me a racist. If that is all these useless bastards can worry about then they can fuck off. All the troubles in the world, and they seem to pick a fight over the most innocuous things. What about sorting out their own problems? The massive truancy of the black children, the under achievement of black youths, the gang culture, the inability to find decent jobs because when they were growing up black culture demanded they looked cool and didn't care about education? Or do they conveniently blame me for that too

I think the Afro Carribbean / Black communities are by far the most racist people on this island, using it at every opportunity if something happens they don't like. All that bollocks about 'community', they don't understand the first fucking thing about it. Talk about looking after number one.

I'm deeply disappointed in myself, and shocked at my reaction. But I think this was the final straw.

At least I will stand up and say it though.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Answers

Main Entry: nit·ty-grit·ty Pronunciation: 'ni-tE-"gri-tE, "ni-tE-' Function: noun Etymology: origin unknown Date: 1963 : what is essential and basic : specific practical details <get down to the nitty-gritty of the problem> - nitty-gritty adjective

That would be the 1963 slave convoy then

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

OED has origin 20th Century

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

NIGGER!

The historical and factual name of a dog owned by a WWII ace who led a daring raid over occupied Europe that made it onto the silver screen (Dam Busters or 633 squadron...can't remember). Re-run on TV recently......still took off from Blighty, still blew up a couple of Dams (or a big rock over a factory), some still made it back......but the dog went through a name change this time. "Here Nipper!!..Here Boy!!"

Statue of said dog still exists at some RAF base. Wonder what the plaque says?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

My thoughts and feelings have changed over the past 6 years with regards to racism. I am now very sensitive to anything that could be construed as being racist - it's very easy to change when you are the minority. When everyone stares at you, when people refuse to sit next to you on the train, or move if you sit next to them, when you get spat at for being foreign (as I did recently but that's another story), when people look at you and say 'gaijin' (loosely translated to meaning foreign devil).

However for anyone to suggest that nitty gritty is racist is incredible. I know that in Japan a lot of the foreign community complain that things are shit because they are Japanese. In Britain that wouldn't happen or in America it wouldn't happen etc. I think that it is much easier to complain about a different culture or country than it is to accept your own weaknesses. There are definite racial problems in the UK, but they are not helped by people looking for them.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Of course this could all be a plot by the worlds lexicograhers to re-write history and cover up the great nitty-gritty scandal

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Gaijin! its when they try and stick bamboo shoots in your fingernails, thats when you have to worry!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Nick, the nitty gritty issue is very silly IMO, if true. Be careful of the source and motive though, as it's not unknown for these things to be raised in order to provoke just the sort of reaction you had. ie used by racists groups to undermine the people fighting for racial equality. My gut feeling is that most black people couldn't care less about the word, and as you say, have got more important things to worry about.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Kegsy, I was on the train on Sunday and an old dear came and set next to me and started chatting to me in Japanese, oblivious to the fact that I didn`t understand a word. She produced all sorts of food from her bag and gave it to me, the last item being one of those rice craker things wrapped in nori. These things are very dry and I was obviously struggling a bit so the old dear - showing pace that belied her age - jumped off the train at the next stop, ran to a drinks machine and bought me a drink. She only just made it back by the skin of her teeth. Maybe there`s another reason why people won`t sit next to you on the train? ;)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

ADK, I was just highlighting worst case scenarios that have happened over the past 6 years, there are obviously many many nice Japanese people. However that old dear sounds quite amazing (or loopy). I hope she didn't buy you green tea by the way and if she did, you pushed her off the train ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

On the more serious point - always a touchy subject isn`t it? The nitty-gritty thing is news to me, I wasn`t aware that it was considered offensive by anyone.

Be wary of making generalisations though - just because some black people call up and make a big deal over something that you consider to be trivial doesn`t mean that a. all black people are offended or b. that the people calling up are not concerned by more serious issues or c. that they are racist.

We never make assumptions about white people in general based on stupid things we hear them say on the radio, and given the presence of the likes of Littlecock, Mellor & co it should be a lot easier to do so. Having said that, I have to confess that those two individuals have seriously coloured my views of Spurs and Chelsea fans, so what do I know?

Also worth noting - if people believe the slave ships definition then it`s not so unreasonable for them to be offended by the use of the word. The fact that some academic disproves it is in some ways neither here nor there. If an academic demonstrated that the original usage of the word nigger was in fact to describe a person of superior intelligence it wouldn`t suddenly make the word inoffensive.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Actually a delicious plum flavoured drink so no need to throw her off the train!

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

delicious plum flavoured drinkHow can you put the words delicious and plum and flavoured drink in the same sentence?

By the way, the gaijin thing doesn't bother me now, the correct term is gaikokujin, but gaijin is now pretty much accepted. I even think it was one of those foreign words that became part of the English language.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Well, I've calmed down a bit now, just gently simmering instead of boiling over.

Just a point though - if it were simply a couple of idiots saying that we can't say nitty gritty, as suggested above, then fine. However, the fact that there are quite a number (if not all) of Police Forces who have been banned from using the word suggests it is more than a minority.

And to be honest, even if it were true about the origins of the word, that's not the point. Those complainers are suggesting that every time I'm using it, it reminds them of their slavery ancestors. Well fuck me I'm sorry for breathing your air. Get a life. YOU weren't a slave, for fuck's sake!

I'm sorry but the English were treated as slaves by the Romans, it's happenned to most races at some point in the dim and distant. It was awful, it was barbaric, but - NEWSFLASH - it's over. How long does it take some people to stop blaming something that happened 200 years ago for problems now?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

A long time Nick, ask the Irish.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Nitty-gritty has always been the name for wholemeal bread in my family, can't see that changing in the forseeable future.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Nick, the fact that none of us seem to have been aware of this until today suggests to me this is being grossly blown out of all proportion. I`m sure our police forces have a huge list of things they are not supposed to say (as indeed they should) and I`m equally sure that there will be one or two others on there that we would view as ridiculous. As for the people who are claiming to find the term offensive - well if you run a story that says that a public official used a word with such conotations then of course some renta-mouth will call up and say they`re offended. I seem to recall a comedy show fabricating a story about a dangerous new drug called "cake" and interviewing a number of politicians, all of whom roundly condemned consumption of cake amongst Britain`s youth.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

My dictionary (Chambers) also gives the etymology of "nitty-gritty" as uncertain.

I go along witb many of the points above. I believe, in general that black people are actually more racist than white, and I'm appalled that we constantly seek to beat ourselves up over the issue, especially here in the UK which is one of the least racist countries on the planet. (I was disgusted, for example, at the racism I heard expressed in Sweden, a country I always assumed to be in the vanguard of liberal thought). I have a fair amount of experience on which to base my views having had Asian friends and girlfriends West Indian friends and an African wife. I have been spat at on more than one occasion for being white (not by any of the aforementioned!), and have been shocked by the opinions of many Africans about other races, not just white. Oddly enough, it would seem that all societies other than white (who want suntans) have a higher regard for lighter skin colour. In India, dark skin is associated with being lower caste and working outside, in Africa cosmetics are often used to make skin colour lighter, in Brazil, Pele did much for people of darker skin, who were less favoured in society.

I was listening to Richard Rock on R4 last night. Interesting comedian hailed as the new Richard Pryor. Very funny man and as part of his act he said that black people were more racist than white because "we hate niggers too!" My wife once told me she didn't want to live in a particular town because there were "too many black people" - uh? - "we know what we're like" (!) - go figure.

There should be no place in the world for racism wherever it comes from. The boundaries of what is classed as politically correct sometimes get shifted too far (as in this silly case of "nitty- gritty") but no-one would dream of using words such as were in common currency in the sixties to describe people of other races. It is time I feel, to stop pussy-footing around these issues and stop constantly denigrating ourselves over issues of race. We have racists among us whose views should be challenged (whatever their racial origin), but they are a small minority and our record in this country is very good. We should always maintain our vigilance against Racism but there should also be room to pat ourselves on the back occasionally as well.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

I can't believe this. Nitty gritty (by my understanding) is the fundamentals of something i.e "lets get down to the nitty gritty of the contract etc, etc. If people are getting so wound up by it that they feel compelled to call a radio station and get all high and mighty on the subject, then so be it. I bet, out of 10 black people asked at 9 would have no clue as to what it refers.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

V Interesting thread, I've learnt more about Jonno in 3 paragraphs here than on 10 years being on the bbs.

I object to the term pussy - footing. It implies that cats are sneaky and untrustworthy.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

I knew about some people's discomfort with the term - I work in an environment where we have a very high committment to anti-racism and I suppose what some people would call a good deal of PC zealots.

The thing is, IMHO, language is important. Hence the N word - once being acceptable and now not. If some people find it objectionable then why shouldn't we consider using another word? Just a thought.

I'm not having a go Nick but I think where you say 'what about sorting out their own problems' is something that causes me more concern. All of those things you mention (failure of black children in education system, gang culture, unemployment etc) are not really about being the 'fault' of the people they impact upon. I think the source of the problem is around a predominantly white society where, structural oppression and discrimination is common. No one really thinks white society is to soley the cause of this but it's part of the problem.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

The reason the police are under strict rules on what they say is cos they were (are?) hugely racist. Even yesterday a black guy won a court case of harrassment after being stopped in his car 16 times in the last 5 years.

The Stephen Lawrence case showed police had more empathy with 6 racist white boys than they did in the belief a black boy had been murdered by them.

Our Irish racism has seemed to have calmed a bit but only 25 years ago it was easy to convict 10 innocent people of horrendous pub bombings on the back of their accent and little else.

I don't know whether blacks are racist as my contact has been very limited since school/college, all those I knew were not.

I live in Scotland and the racial hatred of everything English is shocking. In Glasgow there is the same hatred but it goes under the banner of loyalism and republicanism.

It seems lots of people have problems with their neighbours.

Having a moan about "nitty gritty" is plain daft.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Sorry my post sounded a bit preachy and I didn't meant it to. I just think that all of those issues Nick mentioned which affect the black community aren't just the fault of the black community.

I personally am undecided about whether words are important. However I think language as a whole probably IS important.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

I've got nowt against anyone of any particular race, creed or colour.

Its just those Red & White Mackem Bastards that I can't stand.

;-)

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Didn`t sound preachy Lynda, you were just stating your case. I think there are plenty of `sink` estates and deprived areas which are predominantly `white`, but have the exact same problems, attitudes, chips on shoulders, etc., which Nick described in relation to Black Afro Carribbeans.

I also agree with Pete Miller`s posting.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

There was a kid in my year at school a few years ago who was black and from London. He was happy enough at school, but he used to accuse the teachers of being racists whenever they gave him a bad mark. It started out as a joke, but he kept it up for the whole year, before he left to go back to London.

It really used to irritate a lot of us as he would take any constructive criticism as a racist jibe. Not on.

And "nitty-gritty" has always been a phrase for "let's get down to the nitty-gritty" as in signing a contract or doing the real work or something - there I can see the link with slavery now, but I still can't see how it could offend.

eg. My mam says "am I a slave or something?" as she carries my cup to the kitchen - would that be offensive as well?

Another pet hate is black comedians who make jibes at white people as part of their act - could you imagine Frank Skinner or someone like that spending 10 minutes moaning about black people and their bad points? Another one was the MOBO awards (Music Of Black Origin) - I am certain there would be outrage if the MOWO awards were introduced.

There are racial issues in this country, but IMHO these are not helped by the tension caused by the asylum seekers entering en masse.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

So, I've just asked one of the Black Attorneys at my firm if he was familiar with the term "Nitty Gritty" he said, "sure, every American is" This had me concerned as I thought "am I so ignorant I don't know this term" so I said, "so what does it mean to you" and he said "getting down to the heart of things, the basic fundamentals" He had no idea it was an offensive term to people of African origin.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Mac

That guy that got stopped 16 times in 5 years lived in a rural area - Norfolk I think. He was interviewed last night - as soon as he complained about being stopped he wasn't stopped again !! All he wanted was an apology - it wasn't forthcoming so he kept going and got £5000 in the end.

The police have a lot to answer for but they're also in a difficult to win situation re the race issue.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

I'm more racists now than I was 2 years ago. It's not that I look down on anyone because of the genetic makeup. It's due to the undeniable facts of certain cultures. Let me give an example. Here in Sydney, there are a lot of Japanese. Now EVERY SINGLE TIME I'm walking down the pavement and a group of Japanese are walking towards me, they flatly refuse to give me any space to get past. It annoys the fck out of me. At the last possible moment they might begrudgingly give me 6 inches of pavement. Now maybe I'm not racist. Maybe I'm culturalist. Maybe the Japanese who can afford holidays in Sydney are spoilt brats and I only see a narrow demograph. But it's human nature to start to dislike a culture when you get pissed off whenever you come across them.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Nick, if you think that's bad you should try getting my train in a morning - I am on the busiest line in Japan (which says something) and in the rush hour the train is at 270% capacity.

I do think that it is a cultural thing though, Brits, on the whole, like to have their own personal space and as such are probably more considerate than the Japanese who have very little space (unless you live in the middle of nowhere like Choshi). They are also completely ignorant of what is going on and have no peripheral vision, the amount of times I have nearly been ghit by people on bikes or hit other cyclists who come on the road without looking is scary.

I'm sure that if you come over to Japan and ADK takes you for a night out that you will start to love them though....

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

I'm going to see ADK for 5 days in July. Probably see you in person then. You are right about them beng oblivious to what's going on in the 3D space they're in. Strange really.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Look forward to meeting up with you, though I'm not sure if it will be in Tokyo as I don't know if ADK has recovered from the last time he was here.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

A contribution on 'political correctness' lifted from another board by Nick Curry (a.k.a. the musician Momus):

"The genius of the term 'politically correct', and its enduring appeal, lies in the fact that it identifies the historical moment when liberalism (specifically the liberalism of the 1960s) becomes institutionalised and legislated in the 'nanny state'. Therefore it allows right wing people to pose as libertarians, defending personal freedom rather than reactionary ideology. It makes liberalism look big and powerful, and therefore a legitimate target for anti- authoritarians to attack. This brings a lot of people with leftist sentiment on board the reactionary bandwagon.

You can see the same thing happening when Hitler characterises an unthreatening minority in Germany (the Jews) as a powerful international conspiracy. Once this scale trick has been achieved ('Oh they're not small at all, they're very big and scary and they're everywhere') the bullies can pose as the bullied and really put the boot in."

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

I have a confession to make. My eldest daughter has just started school. It's a good little school on the whole, co-ed with a huge mix of races. Initially the ratios were about 30% caucasian, 45% indian/pakistani origin, 20% afro caribbean, and 5% chinese - which we thought was healthy. For various reasons, a lot of the white kids have left or will be leaving. Next year my daughter might be the only white girl in her class, and in a 10% minority. I can't justify it, but I'm uncomfortable about this. Am I being racist, or do I just want at least some of her school friends to be from a similar cultural background to herself? We won't change schools, because she loves it there (which is obviously the most important thing), but I'm sure some of the other parents of kids have changed schools partially because of the racial mix. What hope have we got if parents react like this - no wonder ghettos are created. Interestingly, it's only her year that seems to have gone this way - a sort of herd mentality at work?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Sorry, been so busy with work, I've not been able to read this entire thread. hopefully I can catch up a bit this weekend. Anyhoo..Pete, the white flight thing is sadly a common reaction and does seem to lead to the decline in schools. If your daughter is happy, the school and teachers are good and the area isn't getting dangerous, there's no reason to pull her out. I was similarly one of the increasing minority of white kids in my school up until I was about 12, but it didn't seem at all abnormal to me as I'd grown up in the area with most of those kids, the school was decent, had great teachers. We only moved out of the area after the school district re- drew the boundaries half way through the school year, throwing me into a much worse school district suffering overcrowding and limited supplies(pretty much a ghetto). Likely the worst that will happen with your daughter is she learns ethnic schoolyard slang and gets strange looks from white kids if she ever goes to a predominantly white area. (It was surprising to me that everyone didn't talk that way, I just thought they were weird!) ;-))

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Ciara, this new job of yours is obviously occupying far to much of your time ;-) Are you enjoying it, at least?

Re my daughters school, the area's pretty good, although it's on the border with the general Southall area, hence the large asian quota. It's not just the white parents, though, who are concerned over the racial mix. There's actually one asian family in particular that's threatened to take their son out because of supposed trouble in the playground with a black kid where the asian boy got kicked. There was a definite uncurrent of racism to some of the remarks I heard them say. The sad thing is, when the two kids in question came to my daughters party, they seemed to me to be best friends. I'm sure the kicking incident was your normal horseplay. They're only 5 fer F@cksakes. If it were left up to kids to grow up without parental influences, I'm sure racism wouldn't exist.

PS my daughter's definition of a Muslim is someone who doesn't eat meatballs :-P

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

That's what I find amusing about racism, it's not just a white person thing...every group has racist elements. It's just the whites got the most publicity. I grew up in an area that became predominantly black, and they hated the Mexicans in the next town(where I got shipped after the boundaries changes) and the Mexicans hated the Koreans moving into predominantly Mexican areas. Not sure who the Koreans hated as I didn't happen upon them until we moved to a predominantly white area where Asians were considered nearly on par with the whites. Crazy!

As for the job, unfortunately it is eating severely into my play time. I'm nearly a month behind on email. But can't complain as it pays the bills faster than being a temp! If only I could win the lottery (...surely you'd have to play it first -Ed). Anyway, Pete, I think I will enjoy it once the initial overwhelming phase is past (I've had appx 2 weeks to learn everything and will now be basically on my own for a month while the technical lead has trotted off to India...eep!). The people are great and the manager is all about us keeping up with the latest trends. It's only the constraints of government processes that are a bit of nuisance. It's become a bit of a joke around here that we're a web development group without a single copy of photoshop(or similar image editing software). I'm also finding it highly amusing that they seem to think I'm an expert on certain things simply because I've heard of them. Riiiight. ;-)

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Great thread peeps. I honestly don't have the energy right now to post what i'd want to in response to all the thoughtful stuff that has gone up here, other than to say maybe the most healthy thing is when the likes of Nick & Nick R are able to say what they actually feel ?

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

Good point Seymour. One of the negatives about political correctness is that it stiffles what people say and want to express. It's best to get ideas and opinions out in the open for debate, otherwise they fester and feed upon themselves.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Sticks and stones will break my bones (said the friendly police sargeant) but words will never hurt me.

Apart from the words "there's that tosser, get him!" or "ready, aim, fire!" that's mostly true. I couldn't care less what someone calls me. I have Irish blood, so jokes about micks and paddies are sometimes hard to take, but so long as those telling the jokes don't actually believe all Irish are thick/terrorists/drunks that's fine. Likewise, I don't think jokes about minorities, or disabilties or whatever can cause any offence at all if, when jokes are said and done, there is an equality of treatment and opportunity.

But there is also context, so while in Brixton I would probably refrain from renditions of Chris Rock's comments on 'loving black people, but I hate niggaz'. Likewise, during a sojourn in the Sudan I wouldn't make Ethiopian jokes.

If you can't laugh at other people (and in doing so, ourselves), what's the point?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Those on this thread who brought up the past, where some folks referred to black people with the N word, you have misunderstood I feel. That was a term FOR black people, a pejorative term at that, and was rightly condemned for what it was. To compare a phrase like nitty gritty to the term 'nigger' or 'Nignog' is obtuse. Nitty gritty is neither a term of abuse nor even a descriptor for black people. It's like when the GLC said you couldn't use the term 'black bin bag' as it upset people. Sorry, I shan't go along with that. Terms of abuse - get rid of them. Everyday words being banned in case they upset people - sorry, get a life.

I was married to an Indian lady - (well, half, as her father was Indian) and they were very capable of laughing at themselves, yet they looked down on the black community, which shocked me, as I didn't (and don't). I'll never forget her father muttering that a black family had moved in down the street, and that house prices would relect that.

I had many conversations with him about the caste system, the rights of minorities, and so on, and his views were, shall we say, True Conservative. Well, he was a Tory councillor (still is probably) and was Maggie's biggest fan.

Living in Germany and elswhere in Europe indicated to me that we are the most racially tolerant and inclusive society in Europe. I think that's why I was so irate at the top of this thread. I sympathise with that guy in Norfolk, who had been stopped umpteen times by the Police - I do think the Police still have a strong racist element to them, and that must be dealt with. But thankfully that type of racist behaviour is getting less. Black activists who continue to mutter about phraseology (sp??) may find that their energies are better spent elsewhere, is what I was saying.

If I have offended anyone, I apologise, that wasn't the reason for leading off the thread. I was angry. I do my level best not to offend ANYONE, especially when abroad as a guest of that country, and I get pissed off being tarred with the same brush as the Right Wing Bigots. (ooer - "tarred with the same brush" - I expect some hate mail to begin forthwith). We're NOT all racist, but managing not to be racist at times is a stuggle I occasionally lose.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

As a Right Wing Bigot, I find I must object in the strongest terms to your casitgation of a whole group of peoples in this manner. It truly is outrageous. I mean, the next thing is banning a good old fashioned cross burning or stopping me from calling Mr Shah at the newsagents a sambo. The barbarians are at the gate!

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

nah mate, carry on with the cross burning. Now those Christians, they really get on my tits....

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

At least on this BBS can we lay to rest the myth that the GLC ever banned black bin bags or the use of the words "black" "bin" or "bags" - extend that to blackboards and the rest of the rubbish trotted out by the Mail etc - you know, the same papers that cannot get a story about NUFC straight. See the contribution above about the use of the PC argument and limiting freedom to speak to justify very undesirable comments/behaviour - I couldn't agree more.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

I do not think too many on here were offended Nick, some like myself concerned that you had lost it and might do something silly, like stand out in the street and scream every non PC word or phrase you could think of, or Just yell Gavin Herron, it would have the same effect!

Every race or even division of race, Croatian as opposed to German in the "white" group have through their customs and upbringing different views on different subjects. Who has said that we must like them all? Most people who class themselves as racist (bearing in mind the hard core do not see themselves as such) are most likely not racist at all, but do not like certain aspects of character of some people.

For example in my job I have noticed that the majority of South Africans who emigrate to Australia do not tell the truth about what they are bringing into the country as their personal effects. They "forget" to declare some things. They ALL do it and they generally "forget" the same items. In this situation I do not consider myself Racist against South Africans.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

I see nothing wrong with political correctness. As a disabled person, I’m happy that the expression cripple isn’t used, or that mongrel, spastic and retard are considered unacceptable. I’m also pleased that books such as Heidi or The Secret Garden are deemed politically incorrect because of their portrayal of disability and disabled people. Society is much healthier now that comedians such as Stan Boardman, Bernard Manning and their ilk are sidelined.

Many people who are against political correctness, as has been said above, do so because they have other agenda’s.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Language is constantly developing, so that calling a perkin of colour (is that PC?) a nigger was once acceptable it is not now, unless you happen to be a South Central LA gangsta. And of course not that long ago the word Christian was a term of derision against the followers of the new fangled sect of Jesus. Now people are quite openly proud of this name. Oh, the irony!

Didn't Ian Dury sing Spasticus Elasticus? At the time I think it was banned by the BBC and barely received any airplay, widely criticised by politicians as offensive. Yet the ban was in the ignorance of the context - Dury was disabled and was singing about the discrimination which disabled people suffered at the time (and still do?). "I'm Spasticus!" When informed of the context the ban was lifted and politicians embarrasingly umm'd and ah'd.

Nick - not having a go, just genuinely interested in your opinion. Wouldn't it be more politically correct to say "differently abled"? Certainly less obtuse than 'handicapped'. And don't you think it's more patronising to make up all these terms instead of actually making a difference to people's lives?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Oops. I was reading Heidi to my daughter the other day - completely oblivious of it's non PC nature. Why is it considered non PC?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

My kids' two 'videos of the moment' are a cartoon version of Heidi and The Secret Garden with Maggie Smith. Sorry but I can't see anything in those films / books that is PinC.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Wendy - didn't really understand your last posting. What were you referring to in "see the contribution above" ?

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Nick, you wrote:

"Many people who are against political correctness, as has been said above, do so because they have other agenda’s"

I don't know whether that is aimed at me, or specific groups in general, but I fail to see what other agendas. Are you saying that some people want to carry on using the N word for black people without getting in trouble? I'm not - seriously - being deliberatly thick, but perhaps I'm not faced with it the same as you are day in, day out.

And I must add my tuppence worth about Heidi and The Secret Garden. This, to me, is another Nitty Gritty. You clearly are offended, I have no idea why. Perhaps it's because I haven't read or seen them for a while, or missed the part you referred to.

No-one else here seems to want to say it for fear of offending a minority (you) so I will give you the respect of arguing directly with you, and bite the bullet. I think you are wrong if you want to ban such books, or indeed any books that have been in the public domain for so long. That way lies Nazism.

Please, by all means, give me your reasons why we should stop reading them, and based on that I promise I will carefully consider my above opinion.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

I think banning of any book is bad. If someone considers something in a book offensive, it should lead to discussion as to the rights or wrongs of the material but leave people free to make up their own minds as to whether it's right for them. Just as language changes over time and certain words once in common use are now considered offensive, so it goes with books written in the past. Old books provide a valuable insight into the past that shouldn't be lost due to the current PC craze. Perhaps only our approach to the material should be reconsidered depending on the circumstances.

-- Anonymous, May 17, 2002

Nick, Ciara, to be fair I don`t think anyone has made any suggestion that either Secret Garden, Heidi or any other book should be banned. There is a WORLD of difference between something being banned and something being deemed to be politically correct. Mein Kampf is not banned in the UK either, nor should it be.

Personally I think that it IS important to have a degree of sensitivity in our language. Society moves on and hopefully progresses - in my childhood I was called Wog, Paki, Nigger, Darkie and Sambo (to name but a few) more times than I can remember - possibly by some of you if you happened to be in Ashington in the 1970s as those words were deemed to be more or less acceptable by the white population of a small North East town who had rarely seen a non- white person. It`s a sign of progress that large numbers of the people who would have used those words then wouldn`t dream of doing so now. I suffered terrible abuse as a kid but my sister who is 3 years younger than me had fewer problems. My brother, who is 8 years younger than me, had virtually none at all.

"Political correctness" in my opinion has made a major contribution towards that progress by making people understand that certain language is offensive and unacceptable. As with everything else you`ll always find an instance of someone going too far and making a big issue of something trivial, but that`s true of virtually every aspect of society.

You`ll have to excuse this particularly long rant, but I`ve got a couple more things to say (sorry!). There is no room for complacency where racism is concerned. England may or may not be less racist than other countries but still has issues to confront. People tend to dismiss this and say things like "well it`s OK now, there used to be racism but there isn`t anymore". Unfortunately it doesn`t work like that. Britain was a racist society 20-30 years ago (take my word for it) and the fact that there have been significant improvements since then does not mean that the effects are not still being felt now. For all the 70s NF skinheads who have reformed there will be a few who still hate black people or believe them to be inferior. Only now they are in their 40s, some of them are employers, policemen and other figures with responsibility.

Last study I saw (about 5 or 6 years ago I think) demonstrated that Afro-Carribbean people in Britain on average earn less than white people who have similar qualifications. They are statistically less likely to be offered jobs, more likely to be arrested and receive heavier sentences for comparable crimes. It`s unlikely that racism is the sole cause of this (indeed it may not even be the major cause) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that it is ONE of the causes - whether it`s direct racism now, or the indirect economic results of racism in the past.

So some black people feel they have a grudge to bear - as with all social problems this will not disappear overnight. In expecting everyone who feels they were discriminated against in the past to forgive and forget overnight we are being ridiculous. ALL social problems take generations to fix. Are black people more racist than white people? Maybe, but inexcusable as racism is, they undoubtedly have more reason to be.

As an intelligent broad minded person, into which category I believe everyone on here falls (yes, even SK!), your responsibility re racism is in my opinion fairly simple. Don`t make assumptions about an individual based on his skin colour. Don`t make judgments about an ethnic group based on the actions of an individual or individuals. Accept that in the past some people have been victims of racism and that they will as a result have a different view on the subject than you do. And understand that lots of the problems some people put down to race are in fact social problems - in other words it is not "their" problem it`s your problem too.

I`m off to play with my gollywog now......

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

By the way Nick, I certainly wasn`t offended and I`d be surprised if anyone else was - as LT said, the ability to have a sensible discussion about such a difficult issue is actually fantastic.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

Freedom of speech is paramount. The likes of Le Pen, Fortouyn, Thatcher have to be allowed their stage, we just have to have the ability to argue against them.

The thing that jars me most is hearing white people interviewed and blaming all their woes, or their nations woes, upon the 'tidal wave' of immigrants to their particular country. I've heard it in Sweden, when on holiday with friends last year, from Dutch commenttators recently, from yer average French guy, from people interviewed in a pub in Burnley. It is all pervasive.

As the soft left has joined the soft right and become the same giving peopel no real choice of politician the extreme right has crept in. The mocking of political correctness will become one of their weapons. The near nonsenical discussion around the use of 'nitty gritty' wil be used sometime in the future as a means of belittling something else that needs picked up on. It will get to the point where you aren't allowed to try the PC approach for fear of laughter in your face.

-- Anonymous, May 18, 2002

I hate th fact those darkies come over here and make no attempt at integrating into our society. I must go as I need to call my Brother in Hong Kong, he usually gets back from his afternoon piss up with the ex-pats at the football club where he usually has a sunday lunch, gets the ferry back to the island he lives which has a thriving ex-pat community it's own English style pub & residents club.

..the darkies reference was ironic!

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

It has taken me a long time to get around to this thread but I'm glad I've read it now. It's fascinating.

My own experience in the classroom is that racism is on the decline in this country. 20 years ago teaching a unit about slavery in America which was always preceded with a discussion about racism, would guarantee to see a hand raised and a pupil to start their comment with the words, "I'm not racist but .....". I tend not to get this now, although you do get the odd individual who makes what other students can demonstrate to be a prejudiced comment.

Most interesting one recently, however, came from a 16 year old GCSE student not known for his academic achievements (and he's a bloody nuisance as well!) who was doing some coursework on apartheid in South Africa. He told me his grandfather was a huge racist and wondered whether we would reduce racism in our country when his parents and grandparents' generations passed on and his own, as he saw, much more enlightened generation came to adulthood. The pleasing thing was that virtually everyone in the group agreed with him - racism, they suggested, was a "grown ups" problem. I just hope they don't grow out of this idealism.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

That is uplifting to hear Jacko.

Most certainly my parents generation appeared to be far more racist than my own - in fact embarrassingly so - but this may be at least partly explained by their limited contact with foreigners of any kind - part from those who served in the Armed forces of course - and the remnants of superiority that I presume was a legacy of the British Empire.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

True Clarky. I would hardly call me old Ma a racist in the typical sense. However, I would say that on the basis of "ignorance" she (and a lot of her generation) could appear to be racist. For example, instead of popping round to the corner shop, she'll mention "the Pakki". When I confronted her with this, she was staggered to realise it was often seen as a derogatory comment, tho she countered by saying that the owner often calls himself that. So, was I being over-sensitive? Probably.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

I worked with a girl who had lived in Sheffield. She is late 20s. At school she was told by the teacher there were white people, darker Asian people and black negor people. The Asian people were darker because they didn't wash as much as the whire people, and the negro people were so black cos they never washed at all !!

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Gents, you`re absolutely right that previous generations were shockingly racist by today`s standards. When my mother and father announced that they were getting married and that my mother was in the family way my grandfather wouldn`t speak to them for months. My Grandad was afarmer from Haswell in County Durham, where I suspect they haven`t had a coloured visitor since my Dad was last there. But eventually after spending some time with my father he came around - all it took was some prolonged contact with a coloured person and he overcame his prejudices. It was exactly the same for me as a kid in Ashington - people got over it relatively quickly.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Just like my (late) mother (God Bless Her) said, when I told her I was planning to marry my Singaporean Chinese girlfriend; "I divvent want nee Chinky grandbairns!"

I'd be surprised if she'd ever seen a 'live' Oriental before!

:-)

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

ADK, by prefacing your remarks with the word "Gents" some of us may suggest you are shockingly sexist!

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Well we`ve all got some prejudices ;) I thought that last few people to post were men, sorry if I was wrong!

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

I told my grandma I was getting marrie dto a girl from Belfast and she was hoorified and asked "she's not a catholic ?!!!"

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

My husband's family are Catholic - I'm not. My sister-in-law told me that when she was at school (Catholic school of course) all the lasses were actively discouraged from having anything to do with Methodists who were, by all accounts, the spawn of the devil.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

My maternal grandmother's family, in addition to being overtly racist, were anti-semitic, anti-Catholic and, of course, anti- Tory.

In fact, apparently "anti" anyone who was 'different' to them.

-- Anonymous, May 19, 2002

Been off line for a couple of days so my replies to some of the comments above might be a bit late, but for what it's worth, here they are:

No, it’s not more pc to say ‘differently abled’ (a horrible American euphanism). Disabled implies that people are disadvantaged. In fact, I think that the first legal use of the term was in the early 19th century which defines women as disabled because they were unable to own property.

Heidi and The Secret Garden rely on a miraculous cure and the walking child for their happy endings. This transmits a number of messages. Children who cannot walk are to be pitied and cared for, but never accepted as equals. For them to progress into a happy adulthood they must be cured. In neither of these books, nor many others of their ilk, do disabled children become reconciled to their impairment. It is difficult to think of a story which ends without a disabled child walking and throwing away the wheelchair or other similar device. (In deed, Disney refused to film the Helen Keller story when he discovered that she wasn’t cured at the end). Yet such cures, in real life, are almost unheard of.

They also suggest that through faith people can be cured. This implies that those who aren’t cured simply don’t have enough faith. I have many friends who are wheelchair users who tell me that they often have to put up with idiots who come up to them and tell them that they have only got to believe and they will be able to walk. As adults they can laugh at this, but its impact on children can be devastating. Much like the story that Mabeth tells about black and Asian people being told that they are that colour because of their failure to wash, so disabled children can come to believe that they what they are because their faith is not energetic enough. Self-loathing is often the outcome.

Impairment and illness are also presented in both these books and in others as being the outcome of sin. Links with the views of Hoddle can obviously be made.

My comments aimed at people who attack political correctness having a different agenda were not aimed at anybody on this list.

Sorry it's a bit long, it wasn't meant to be a lecture.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

Thanks for that education Nick. I was certainly unaware of the 'Have faith and you will walk' brigade; similarly the happy ending of 'walking again at the end of the book' scenario had not even occurred to me.

I need to rethink my previous comments, as I suggested I may have to.

Like all of us on here I presume, I always thought I was aware of inequality, I was tolerant and inclusive, and non racist. I wonder how many times I've inadvertantly badly upset someone or seriously pissed them off without realising?>

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

Interesting Nick, re Heidi etc. I don't think it would stop me reading it to the kids, although I would point out the things you say.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

I’m not arguing that these books should be banned, I’m just pleased that they are not seen as PC. This is not to say that there is not some good in both these books. They both challenge the widely held view at the time of publication (1880 for Heidi and 1911 for the Secret garden) that children should be seen and not heard and the importance of giving children independence and the freedom to play. However, for the metaphor that is central to these books to work, the idea that to be disabled is some kind of punishment and to walk again is good and right must be widely accepted. These books serve to reinforce that and to suggest that disabled children are unhappy, passive and powerless and that cure is what they desire above all else.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

Wasn't Bernard Mannings best mate a Jew and he does (or did) loads of stuff for his charity.

Still agree that he went way over the top. Mind you I can handle that better than the stuff Chubby Brown spews out.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002

Nick, by 'see contribution above' I just meant that I agreed with Stevo's comments the PC issue - I couldn't remember who'd written it by the time I got round to contributing.

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002

Thankx Wendy - clear now :)

-- Anonymous, May 21, 2002