Any thoughts on the folowing discussion as I would like to try and add some input to the thread( which is titled "So many Christians so few lions"). Im not sure how to respond, and keep my street cred!

"Ned I think ethics, however worthy, are probably useless without ritual". "Hmm, why so? Not being flippant here, but honestly curious. Is it that ritual serves as a reminder for the self?"

-- Ned Raggett (ned@kuci.org), May 14, 2002.

"I think beliefs about the world arise from material practices, not the other way around. So instead of just being a steady hand on the plow, ritual CREATES the plow, or the concept of it, in the first place. It's not necessarily privileging some mythical first-person experience as an irreplacable requirement for ethics or belief (though I think it's the major part); Christians create their beliefs and sustain them through a) reading b) praying c) various sacraments but also through sympathies with others. Bearing witness maybe. A preacher has his own ritual—his weekly sermon—that can be so powerful as to be like a physical ritual you perform yourself. I watched four women sing in the subway yesterday, so loud you could hear it many stairwells and hallways away even over the rumbling of the trains and the clatter of New York rush hour I mean they were @!#%^&*$ LOUD, singing "any other love would walk away from me" and I was just shaken to my boots. I haven't attended a church service in a long time and it was like all those years inbetween coming down on me at once. Their message—of abandonment, basically, of being lost and then found—was so painful and true, and their ritual so cathartic and free (and LOUD) that their own ritual resonated almost as if it were my own. And I realized how ineffectual my token glances towards Christianity were compared with the type of feeling produced by physical repetition."

-- Tracer Hand (tracerhand@yahoo.com), May 14, 2002.

-- Courtenay (csiherwood@hotmail.com), May 15, 2002

Answers

Courtney:
Anyone who's read the Holy Bible knows from the Old Testament first and later in Jesus Christ's public life, ritual is demanded from us by Our Father in heaven. We have a duty to offer up worship every single day.

In the OT, Yahweh told Moses exactly how He wanted to be worshipped. The people of Israel practiced ritual from the beginning. No detail was unimportant, if they expected to please God. Christ presented Himself in the holy Temple, and took part in ritual there. He did many of His own great works in ritualistic fashion; and even instructed the apostles in what was indispensable as ritual; first and foremost Holy Baptism. It's no mystery how the Church's sacraments became valid; they came to us by the apostles from Christ. All have their origin in Jesus Christ, and employ a perfected, holy ritual.

They are not, nor have they ever been, an invention of men. Our Church is acting in obedience to God, who makes His grace present to us in and by the signs we THINK are our own expression of worship. --But at basis, God is the One who gives us ritual; and expects it from us. Nothing we could ever do OURSELVES would be sufficient to please Him. Christ perfected this way of worshipping, and He alone gives it the divine character. Ritual becomes divine through His death and resurrection, and in His Holy Church.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 15, 2002.

Up--

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-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 15, 2002.

Eugene - you stated Christ perfected these " rituals " whereas I ask why did He dud make it clear I have come to release you from the law? 613 Judiac laws is a handful to say the least.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 15, 2002.

I can't understand your question. Ask it more clearly if you can.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

Thanks Gene

-- Courtenay (csisherwood@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

Eugene - My attempt is asking with so many Judiac laws that stiffled people's inner spirit via set rituals - why then did Christ say " I have come to free you from the law? "

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 16, 2002.

Jean, where is it written that Jesus said that? Did He abrogate the ten commandments? Was He not celebrating the Passover (a holy ritual) with His apostles, on the night He was betrayed? Did He not establish the holy ritual now known to us as the Mass? When He blessed the little children, did He have a ritual? Is not Holy Baptism administered by ritual, words and water?

Jesus did NOT ''free'' the faithful from the law. He fulfilled the law in Himself, for all of us.

The New Covenant is our new Law. --In the New Covenant, many of the Old Testament laws are still observed and a number of the laws are replaced or gone. But in any case, for you to pretend that the Mosaic (not Judaic) Law ''stifled the people's inner spirit via set rituals -'' is wrong.

It didn't stifle anything. Jesus Himself observed the Law of Moses. He also approved, and in fact demanded ritual worship.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 16, 2002.

Eugene - It would appear I am mistaken in my stating Christ came to free us from the law. I wonder why our priest who is held in very esteem by many Bishops as he is head of Prison Programs in Canada for he states this often.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 16, 2002.

We aren't acquainted. If he cares to dispute this, let him write me a letter. Or, let him enter this forum.

He might show me in the Bible how ritual stifled the people of God in their inner spirit. But I don't see how, since this is a fiction you likely found in one of your romance novels. It has no basis in truth.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 17, 2002.

Eugene - Your statement of " Let him write ME! " speaks of a man who apparently knows it all and is not open to fresh air which the Church is dire need of. This saddens me thinking your input so often is mutated growth.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 17, 2002.

Dear Jean:
Is the priest whose Bible quoting you failed to understand too proud to write me an e-mail? Then, why don't you print out a copy of this thread discussion. Let him read it, and we shall see what he says to you about ''stifled inner spirit'', and you can ask HIM what he thinks of Catholic ritual.

I have respect for priests. If he says that Catholic ritual is something that ''stifles the inner spirit'', or, that Christ came to set us free of ''law'' in which ritual stifles us,

I may have to think this over. But, as I recall; priests are ordained by their bishops in a ritual of some kind. Aren't they? Why is a good priest against that? He said we were freed of those ''laws'' by Christ. According to you.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 17, 2002.

Gene

It is quite clear that Jean has been warped by all of the readings he has done on the New Age Theologies. His reading of these things has left him in a state of drunkeness. He definitely needs to reeducate himself to the truths of the Church teachings and the Bible and CCC. It shows in the words he writes.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 17, 2002.

As of this day both Eugene and Fred are negated from this member's interest list. They do not own the site even though they think so.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 17, 2002.

OK, Jean;

If, then-- I had agreed with you, I would still be on your interest list? Only whoever doesn't contradict you is any good? I haven't claimed I own this site. I wonder why you insinuate I'm saying that? I only speak for myself.

-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), May 17, 2002.

Could this be what makes Jean Bouchard tick?

He has said that he was Jewish, but became Christian. Did he resent the Mosaic Law and thus opted for Christianity, believing that it had nothing to do with numerous laws that must be obeyed, doctrines that must be believed, and rituals that must be followed (as in Judaism)?

Now does he moan and groan so much because people here constantly point out to him that all must obey the Commandments and Canon Law, that all must believe the doctrines in the Catechism, and that all must attend Mass (and other sacraments) and take part according to rituals?

Is Jean Bouchard screaming for freedom from this? "None of your oppressive laws, please! None of your unreasonable doctrines, please! No forced attendance at Mass and no rubrics to follow, please! No restrictions on my probing of pagan religions, please! Let me be a minimalist believer, please!" ???

eyes to see

-- eyes to see (observer@of.jb), May 18, 2002.