My wife and I were talking about Siberia and WWII prison camps when this question came up... don't know the exact answer to it.

Lets say that you are in a prison camp, forced into labor to produce war machinery for a dictatorial, hell-bent regime such as the Hitler's... and to refuse would be certain execution.

Would it be wrong to produce parts for equipment that would be used in an evil agression? Are you guilty of having a hand in the destruction? If you refused, could that be labelled as something akin to suicide? Or would refusal in fact be required of you?

Also, If you knew that your arrest and imprisonment would mostly likely lead to your eventual execution, do you have the option of resisting up front and taking the consequences immediately as opposed to being passive and delaying the inevitable?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2002

Answers

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-- (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2002.

Emerald,

Lovely name.

Good question! This is just my opinion, and talk is cheap. That is to say, if I was in the situation, things might be different. But, I would opt for martyrdom. To die for the sake of Jesus, and for Peace and Love on Earth is a sure ticket to Heaven. To miss the chance to see our Lord, and to give in to producing war weaponry, at most would lead to a second chance to see our Lord later. And who knows, even if you give in and labor for those tyrants, who's to say they won't execute you anyway?

Just a thought.

In Christ.

jake

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 14, 2002.

That is a very powerful question, Emerald and certainly gives us something to think about. I will be interested to see what others have to say. ML

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 14, 2002.

Emerald,

As MaryLu and Jake said, this is a great question. The first thing I thought of was "The Serenity Prayer":

"God, grant me the serenity To accept the things I cannot change, The courage to change the things I can, And the wisdom to know the difference."

In contrast to Hitler, whom so many saw as evil, we live in an age when "evil" has camouflaged itself so that it's often hard for people to see it. Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 14, 2002.

Actually, the first thing I thought of was St. Kolbe.

He gladly stepped up in the concentration camp to take the place of another man who was going to be killed. This other man had a wife and family and so, St. Kolbe took his place. And in the pit where he and the other prisoners were put to die, he was the last to go. As always, on his knees, praying. He willingly and without a fight put his arm out for the injection that he knew would end his life. I don't think of it as suicide. Maybe he just knew that fighting would be futile and he was prepared to go.

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), May 14, 2002.

But would it be wrong to help produce parts for war equipment?

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2002.

Yes it is wroung, yes you will be guilty.

-- Tony (awalker@teknett.com), May 14, 2002.

Hello,

Jake says : ".....But, I would opt for martyrdom. To die for the sake of Jesus,.....is a sure ticket to Heaven...."

True ! But if you give up your life thinking, that one day you will be declared a saint...then I tell you that this martydom will surely be a ticket to outside heaven. :)

Remember you will never be visited by any persecution or problems untill and unless you can face them. And if God really has called you to be a martyr then he will definitely give you the strength and the grace required.

Should we start the legal procedure to canonized you now or later. :)

God Bless,

-- Xavier David (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 15, 2002.

"A man who becomes conscious of the responsibility he bears toward a human being who affectionately waits for him, or to an unfinished work, will never be able to throw away his life. He knows the "why" for his existence, and will be able to bear almost any "how."

This quote is from Viktor Frankl in "Man's Search for Meaning". You might want to read that book some time to get a concentration camp experience straight from the horse's mouth. I don't quite understand why anybody would want to spend much time answering a "what if" question, especially one as complex as presented here.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 15, 2002.

My thoughts if I may are we can only surmise and conjecture on such an issue. To lose one's sense of dignity totally along with sense of citizenship and identity as a human being is a horror beyond imagination for most if not all of us here. The instinct for survival would take on many forms as to survive is the goal at all costs.

I looked after lady who has now since passed away who was a " looked after woman " during the Nazi period in Poland. Near her death I suggested a priest and she replied " I would never be forgiven for things I have done to save myself. " My only reply was God did not want you die and you did what was needed for life itself.

She had spent the last number of years translating German Nazi Documents for the government who were closing in on resident Nazis living in North America. Perhaps that was her reconciliation?

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 15, 2002.

Sorry Xavier David if I sounded condescending. I didn't mean it that way. Your right - it isn't correct to do something for recognition. However, I don't think it is a sin to try and be a Saint. We are all called to be like our brother and sister Saints, who have gone befor us. Hope this clarifys the point idea that I had earlier.

In Christ

-- jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 15, 2002.

"I don't quite understand why anybody would want to spend much time answering a "what if" question, especially one as complex as presented here."

Because I feel like it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 15, 2002.

May I suggest to you all to read the Diary of Anne Frank. And to learn of Father Kolbe who saved a mna's life in a prison camp. Theman survived the war and as a Jew he helped get the church to bring kolbe to sainthood. The man died about 15 years ago after spending his last years speaking of Kolbe all over the world.Also try reading about Schindlers List. It will provoke some real tears too. He is a saint in many peoples eyes too.

Yes the war (WW II) was a horrible time but the brave people it created helped to rebuilt the world too. Remember Charles deGualle? I can go on. This is a good example.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

"I don't quite understand why anybody would want to spend much time answering a "what if' question, especally one as complex as presented here".

Coosey, why come into a thread Emerald started, and act like a "big wet blanket"? You can bounce back over in that, "Reiki thread", and tell everyone how great reiki is! You have a couple of posts waiting for you over there. :-)

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 15, 2002.

One more time David, the name is Chris to you.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 15, 2002.

Look at any list of Saints and you will find martyrdom written all over it. So the question is very relevant... and I think there is in many cases of martyrdom a decision in the mind of the victim at some point to refuse cooperation; that refusal would trigger an execution.

Kolbe, my confirmation patron Saint, extended his arm to receive a lethal injection. There must have been many occasions previous to his actual execution where he made decisions to be passive in some way so as to avoid an earlier execution. And there has to be some very general and uncomplicated moral principles at work here... I am curious to know where the watermark is for refusing to cooperative with evil captors.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 15, 2002.

Jake,

Nothing serious...just a little humour.

There is always a small 's' ahead of our name. It is up to us how we live our lives.

Cheers,

Xavier

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 16, 2002.

Chris

What do you expect from David! He is here for only one reason. TO show his face and belittle everyone. Too bad. He loves his relics but hates the creations of GOD.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

Xavier.

The above post is directed towards David Sullivan.. SORRY.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

David S You cannot figure your way out of a paper bag for all you have shown me is pure hatred. Nothing but hatred. You will never figure out me nor anyone else for that matter. Satan has a firm grip on you and it clearly shows. You attack and attack me and others as if you think you have all the right to do so. Well Mr Satan take your little star and eat it. You are not a man. you are a mouse behind a keyboard acting like a lion without a heart.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

David You cannot figure your way out of a paper bag for all you have shown me is pure hatred. Nothing but hatred. You will never figure out me nor anyone else for that matter. Satan has a firm grip on you and it clearly shows. You attack and attack me and others as if you think you have all the right to do so. Well Mr Satan take your little star and eat it. You are not a man. you are a mouse behind a keyboard acting like a lion without a heart.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 16, 2002.

I really do have respect for what Father Kolbe has done , giving his life for someone else !!

Morality in Wartime: There is no reason to have outrageous fun in wartime !! __ My enemy in wartime stays my enemy !! __ If I could save my live I will try to , but without to betray my people and without to collaborate with the enemy or even without to kill someone ; only if we talk about real self-defence than I think you have no choice than to kill the other person who's trying to kill you , call it "instinct of survival" !!

Sorry , if I sound TOO confused , but I think you understand my message !!

greets from a NON BELIEVER

-- Laurent LUG. (my__way_@hotmail.com), May 16, 2002.

I think a possible veiw is that your entitlement to life is supreme here because you cant weigh your right to it to some social gain if it can be sumarized in that. You can creat a social utility of rights if inside some nation. I think the true morally copoable party however is the one who created the situation to begin with. They in some way violated the moral contract not to kill you and put you in this position so they ultimately create any effects themselves. If a Hitman does not follow through on his life contract he is still violating his contract with the client and being bad even though he might do the right thing he put himself in the position by violating the prexisting contract that he had with his government.

-- anon (anon@anon.com), September 16, 2003.

Hi Anon.

What you have just said is that the victim has the right to pass the buck? I can't believe passing the buck give immunity from sin. Let's just face reality. Hitler has made the sin both for himself and the victim; that's if the victim chooses the wrong path. The victim has two choices: play by Hitler's rules or by God's rules. It is only human to desire survival, but to seek Salvation is the greater path to take. I don't know what I would do; I do know what is right and wrong, but I cannot say that I could do what is right in Emerald's scenario. Judas Iscariot knew what was right, but he didn't do it. Yet, Judas had to do what was done. And, what happened to Judas? What happened to Man because of Judas? I can only hope and pray that I would do the right thing and sacrifice my life for the many innocent lives that might have been saved in Emerald's scenario. I'm left wondering about how my individual tiny existence could have any great impact on the many lives Hitler would have targeted. Perhaps one life or thousands of lives could have been saved. Would it have been better to live knowing that many were killed by my works or to die knowing that I had no part in the Devil's game? Is life on earth so precious that we would deny our faith and doubt the existence of the Kingdom of God?

What should we prove to Satan? Nothing. What should we do for Satan? Nothing. We are to reject him.<

-- rod (elreyrod@yahoo.com), September 16, 2003.