I have been doing some reading for a humanities course and ran across the notion that Satan fell because he loved God so much he refused to bow to man. God is really to blame, is the implication, for changing signals and requiring angels to bow to creatures. The surprising bit was that the author who referred to this notion attributed it to Roman Catholicism! It is a new one on me, and I wondered what insight you might have. Thanks

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), May 14, 2002

Answers

"...requiring angels to bow to creatures"

(?)...Angels are creatures also; the text there makes it sound as if they are not.

At any rate, Satan certainly did not fall because of an overdose of love. However, I do believe that his fall is centered somehow around the creation of man, and in particular some of the unique aspects of the lower creation called 'human'... in particular, I believe, the ability to share in the creative power of God through procreation.

He was never asked to 'bow' to man that I'm aware of, but perhaps they are alluding to the duty of angels duties to serve man... that theme is a recurring one, that 'the greatest among you is the servant of all', and how the higher beings have this responsibility to serve the lower ranks in God's creation... even the way we take care of animals and serve their needs at times.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 14, 2002.

Satan wanted power as God had and his want of power caused him to be tossed out of the Kingdom of God in Heaven. He is the serpent who later tricked Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

My undersatnding and education of Satan was he being the most powerful angel in the universe. His self-love was so strong he refused to bow before GOD and was banished from heaven.

A full one third of the angels were also banished for Christ said " I saw him fall like a bolt of lightening from the sky to earth. " Angels as I understand them are servants of God and said to be the messengers in the Old Testament. Were one to see angel it was thought to be sign of death.

In the Annunciation Mary a Jewish woman thought death had come until she was told Hail Mary full of grace - The Lord is you. Her reply was " I am the Handmaiden of the lord. "

Whoever wrote and produced the material you read is more then mentally disturbed as in clinic some patients being treated for true disassociated personalities follow this line of thinking. To the extent some believe on the final day Satan will be forgiven and hell no longer exist.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 14, 2002.

What a falsity. You should go back to that Prof. and ask what his source was. It would be good to look this up in the Catechism (the REAL teaching of the Catholic faith).

From what I understand: God Created the Angels with free will. And he gave Lucifer (the former name of Satan) special gifts. Lucifer was the most beautiful of all the angels. This "power" went straight to the head of Lucifer, who then, in Pride (the very first sin) required that God and the other angels bow down to him. It was for this that God sent him to hell, and a third of the angels followed. God, in his infinite wisdom and Love, was not to blame.

Also on fallen angels: Angels minds are much greater than ours. Once they make up their minds (out of free will) to serve or contradict God, they cannot change their minds. They understand what we do not, and they know the consequences of their actions. It is for this reason that we cannot pray for the conversion of Satan. Once an angel’s mind is made up, it will not change.

Hope this helps.

In Christ. Jake

-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 14, 2002.

Isa 14:12-15 12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! 13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: 14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. 15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. (KJV)

Ezek 28:13-17 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. (KJV)

Ezekiel 28 speaks more about Lucifer than I wrote here. Lucifer was different than an ordinary angel. It appears that he had the job of the cherub that covereth. This covering would have to do with the covering of man and his sins. Notice how he says that he will set his throne above the stars of God. Stars almost always typify saints. So, perhaps God showed him his plan to make these little worms(mankind) and then to exalt them and glorify them(as he did with Christ and later us). Lucifer apparently would serve a very important role in this plan by covering man. But alas, he rebelled against this and became just the opposite. He became Diablos (literally to throw through as with a spear) and Satan(adversary). Instead of helping and covering man as God intended, he did the opposite.

Now Jesus Christ has been given the job of coverer since it is his blood that covers us and makes us acceptable to God. It is hard to know exactly what role Lucifer would have served if he hadn't rebelled but it had something to do with covering man.

-- Joe (namodi@hotmail.com), May 14, 2002.

Thanks for your input. Joseph Campbell (The Power of Myth) was the one I read who alluded to the notion of Satan's fall being related to a refusal to serve mankind. Campbell says being raised in the Catholic church he was taught from his "boyhood instruction" that Satan's fall was the result of "the egotism of Satan. He would not bow to man." (p 255).

Being raised a protestant myself, I was familiar with the passages Joe quoted (though not the conclusions he reaches) as explanation of Lucifer's fall. Still not sure about the serving mankind thing.

-- cathy in slovenia (crossways@addall.com), May 14, 2002.

I think I know what it is, Cathy.

Emerald wrote: "He [satan] was never asked to 'bow' to man that I'm aware of, but perhaps they are alluding to the duty of angels duties to serve man..."

The fall due to having to "bow to man" / "serve mankind" comes from a widely accepted theological speculation that ...
(1) the angels were permitted to foresee the creation of human beings, whom some of them would have to serve as guardians, and ...
(2) the angels were permitted to foresee the Incarnation of the second Person of the Trinity as a man, to whom they would all have to bow.
The speculation continues that satan and others pridefully refused to serve humans, particularly thinking it beneath themselves to worship a man (Jesus).

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 14, 2002.

John... #2 you listed above; nice 'A Fortiori'. Hadn't thought of that specific aspect of it.

-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), May 15, 2002.

Actually, that is a Muslim Doctrine.

-- Matthew (magnificentextravaganza@yahoo.com), May 28, 2002.

Matthew,

Based on the flow of the thread, you seem to be responding to Emerald's last post. This suggests that you believe that the Second person of the Trinity (Jesus Christ) has a place in Muslim Theology. Considering that Muslims deny the Trinity, I'd ask you to explain your assertions a bit more when you post. It would help us understand your perspective better.

Thanks,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 28, 2002.

Jmj

Matthew, I seem to recall that the fact there is only one God is also a "Muslim doctrine."

The point is that, when a non-Christian believes something, it just may be true! Moreover, when a Muslims believes something that is true (or a reasonable speculation, such as the one given above), it probably came straight from a Jewish or Christian source. The founder of Islam had years of contact with both true religions before he began his own.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), May 28, 2002.

Lucifer was different than an ordinary angel. >>>>>>

Very true. There's a book I'm currently reading entitled "The Devil and How to Resist Him" by Gerald Vann that discusses how he is/was no ordinary angel. So many people have this misguided belief that he is hideously monstrous and scary looking. The truth is that he's very beautiful.

From the book: We have to remember, first of all, that according to Christian thought, evil is nonbeing--a privation. Satan therefore is not evil, pure and simple, as God is pure goodness: he is an angel and his fall did not destroy his angelic nature. So it is that some early Christian paintings depict him as a beautiful winged youth; after all, his Biblical name, Lucifer, "the lightbearer", underlines this idea of beauty, of dazzling splendor.

He is said in many stories to have appeared to men under monstrous shapes; but these are momentary disguises designed to inspire terror, and are no more a representation of Satan's angelic nature than the simpering, epicene, winged young men of modern repository art are a faithful representation of the good angels.

-------

Truly, it is not so hard, when you keep that in mind, to understand how Christ could have been tempted. I recommend this book to everyone. Fr. Benedict Groeschel said about this book: "A timely reminder for those who still don't take the Devil seriously". A work that's sure to strengthen you in your own struggles against the fiend.

God bless~

-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), May 28, 2002.

From what I have researched on the web and various books is this: 1. Lucifer is the oldest, greatest, and most beautiful angel. 2. He fell not because he would not bow to God, but he thought that He (and the other Angels) should have the earth. For God gave this perfect place to man. He felt he was altogether better than any man and he was there first. 3. It was not until Jesus Christ came that Lucifer was even banished from the thrine of God. 4. Now Satan is the Ruler of the earth, he and his fallen angels roaming the earth.

any email comments please subject Re:Satan's Fall

-- Ryan (Paco145@aol.com), October 08, 2002.

Hello, Ryan.

What you have presented (at least your point #3) is not in accord with the Christian faith. Lucifer (i.e., satan by another name) had fallen long before the Incarnation of Jesus. After all, having taken the form of a serpent, he tempted Eve to commit the "original sin."

Ryan, I encourage you not to try to assemble a series of religious facts merely by some kind of "consensus" arrived at by "research[ing] the web and various books." Instead, let us simply look to the Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) for all the perfect truths that you and I need. Anything that contradicts the CCC is surely wrong.

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 09, 2002.

Then John when did he fall? As I understand it, the subject is very debatable. As I am also a Christian, I am writing a screenplay on this subject. So in my research I discovered many varying times. But it seems to most "scholars" from the bible that he fell when he sinned but he was still able to access the throne. I appreciate any repsone thanks

-- Ryan (Paco145@aol.com), October 10, 2002.

Jmj

Hello, Ryan. Sorry that my reply is so late, but I just now came across your question to me.

God has not revealed exactly "when" the fall of satan/lucifer and his fellow bad angels occurred -- except that it was before satan appeared in the form of a serpent to tempt our first parents in the Garden of Eden.

In other words, God created the angels before the first humans (sixth day of creation), but we don't know when he created them in relation to the first day of creation ("Let there be light"). We also don't know if the bad angels fell before or after the creation of the first humans. Not everything has been revealed to us.

Here is how the Catechism talks about some of these matters:

391. "Behind the disobedient choice of our first parents lurks a seductive voice, opposed to God, which makes them fall into death out of envy. [Cf. Gen 3:1-5; Wis 2:24.] Scripture and the Church's Tradition see in this being a fallen angel, called 'satan' or the 'devil'. [Cf Jn 8:44; Rev 12:9.] The Church teaches that satan was at first a good angel, made by God: 'The devil and the other demons were indeed created naturally good by God, but they became evil by their own doing.' [Lateran Council IV (1215): DS 800.]"

392. "Scripture speaks of a sin of these angels. [Cf. 2 Pet 2:4.] This 'fall' consists in the free choice of these created spirits, who radically and irrevocably rejected God and his reign. We find a reflection of that rebellion in the tempter's words to our first parents: 'You will be like God.'[Gen 3:5 .] The devil 'has sinned from the beginning'; he is 'a liar and the father of lies'. [1 Jn 3:8; Jn 8:44.]"

393. "It is the irrevocable character of their choice, and not a defect in the infinite divine mercy, that makes the angels' sin unforgivable. 'There is no repentance for the angels after their fall, just as there is no repentance for men after death.' [St. John Damascene, De fide orth. 2,4: PG 94, 877.]"

God bless you.
John

-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), October 20, 2002.

Ryan -

Satan was a cherub, as mentioned Ezekiel 28:14 - Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth;

He had to have fallen before Adam and Eve, because of his lies in the Garden: Genesis 3

According to Job 1 & 2 he has access to Heaven - because he is still accountable to God: [1:6] Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. [2:1] Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them to present himself before the LORD.

He will be cast into Hell for the 1000 year reign of Christ, then into the Lake of Fire at the end: Revelation 20:10 - And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 20, 2002.

Thanx for posting your answers fellas, good to get everyone's point of view especially people tat can back it up biblically.

-- Ryan (paco145@aol.com), October 23, 2002.

That's a story from the Qur'an, that Satan was required to bow down to man but was too prideful. Check it out. I think it's Chapter 12. No sense of love causing him not to bow is present, though.

-- Zach (hooverz@att.net), October 27, 2002.

Zach

Satan was not cast down because he would not bow to man, he was cast down for not honoring God and stating that he would ascend above God.

He fell before man was...

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), October 27, 2002.

one person gave response with isaiah 14:12-15. at this point isaiah is speaking about the king of babylon. lucifer is a name for - morning star - and really has nothing to do with satan. ezekiel 28:12-19 also points to the destruction and sin of the king of tyre - not satan. the only place i see satan cast away to earth is revelation 12:9. ultimately he was expelled because he attempted to overthrow at the coming of christ. when did he turn so evil - in the garden he presented himself as deceptive in genesis 3. we know he roamed the earth at the time of job. somethings left to be discovered.

-- chris (coop_ch@yahoo.com), November 13, 2002.

Chris

"one person gave response with isaiah 14:12-15. at this point isaiah is speaking about the king of babylon. lucifer is a name for - morning star - and really has nothing to do with satan. ezekiel 28:12-19 also points to the destruction and sin of the king of tyre - not satan."

->

Check this out: [KJV]

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Re 2:28 And I will give him the morning star.

Re 22:16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

Look at:

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

Ezek 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee.

Now look at:

Lu 10:18 And he said unto them, I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.

-------

Look at:

Re 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Now Look at:

Re 12:3-4 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.

Remember:

Job 38:7 When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

-----------------

The First Deviled Ham:

Mr 5:12 And all the devils besought him, saying, Send us into the swine, that we may enter into them.

Mr 5:13 And forthwith Jesus gave them leave. And the unclean spirits went out, and entered into the swine: and the herd ran violently down a steep place into the sea, (they were about two thousand;) and were choked in the sea.

:)

-- Tim (tlw97@cox.net), November 13, 2002.

Hi ppl. I imagine also Satan probably hated the fact that man was uniquely created in the image of God, and was ordained to have dominion over the earth and seas, and all therin..

Olly.

-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), November 14, 2002.

hey , Read your BIBLE before you come up with wild assumptions about satan and God, It's all in there if you take the time to look. Also, don't be soo sure to believe books and posting about such issues since men are often wrong and peoples opinions are often based on their experierences, whereas the BIBLE is never wrong. Im not catholic, but i think everyone should read the Bible when they have a spiritual question, since that is what it is for. Peace

-- JoelCool (Stratman774@hotmail.com), April 13, 2003.

Dear Joel,

Catholics would certainly agree with you that it is important to read the Bible. After all, the Bible was given to the Catholic Church by God, so you might expect that Catholics would read their own book! However, Catholics also realize that we cannot expect to receive the fullness of truth by simply reading our Bibles, for the very reasons you mentioned - "men are often wrong and peoples opinions are often based on their experierences". Therefore we must conclude that people's opinions about what they read in the Bible are often tempered by their own experiences, attitudes, prejudices, and beliefs, and therefore are very often wrong. The fact that various Protestant denominations have contradictory teachings, all supposedly taken from the same Bible, demonstrates the unreliability of this system. That's why God gave us the Church - so that we would have true and authoritative interpretation of the Bible, and would not have to rely on our own biased opinions regarding its meaning. That's why your Bible tells you that the Church is the pillar and foundation of the truth (1 Tim 3:15). The Bible is never wrong, but people who read it and try to define doctrine for themselves usually are.

-- Paul (Paulcyp@cox.net), April 14, 2003.

I agree with Tim. He has clearly stated the quotes from the scripture regarding this matter. I believe the same thing and I believe that is also the teaching of the catholic church regarding him. Lucifer (morning star, venus) was the name he had in his glory because he was the most beautiful and the most mighty, but by being as high as he was, he turned against God by trying to see himself as God, and the cause of his fall is quite simple. The answer is "pride". St Thomas Aquinas in Summa Theologica explains this in detail.

We should also note that the the name lucifer(the morning star) was later given to St Mary. We say that in the lutinia. God did not forgive the most high holy angel who fell, and God gave that name and position of the greatest beauty and glory to the woman who quietly obeyed his words without a single doubt and humbled herself.

The fall of the morning star into satan is the saddest story in the bible, and it is a warning to us all, most especially to those who have a lot of knowledge and those who are in high positions. It also explains the power of the fallen angel, as he was able to draw a very large amount of holy angels with him. We also know that he constantly acts as a prosecuter against us in heaven from the story of Job, but we also know that the current most high and powerful holy angel Mikael is constantly being our lawyer and is speaking to God for us. He burns with love for God as the meaning of his name - "Who is like God?" He fought for the body of Moses against the same fallen angel, and he fought in heaven with his army against the evil army a long time ago, as St John tells us in revelation, and he will help us and he is the one who will help us against the might and tricks of the trecherous lying father of all evil, as stated throughout in the bible.

-- Abraham T (lijothengil@yahoo.com), April 22, 2003.