My husband is divorcing me after three years of marriage. I begged him to go for counseling with me the first year, when I realized we had some problems. He refused except for one session with our pastor, whom he ended up screaming at when Father disagreed with him. In the three years I have lived with this man, he has been verbally abusive, called me names, and told me I was a lousy wife and bad mother. (I had been previously married and had an annulment) A few months ago, I fell apart and I ended up in counselling, which helped. My question is, is he sinning by doing this? I have prayed and I know in my heart this is morally wrong but I don't know what to do. I was a good wife to him--faithful and obedient. I still don't know what I've done wrong. If there are no suggestions, I beg you for your prayers. I go to court Thursday. Deb

-- Deb Myers (rmwording@yahoo.com), May 13, 2002

Answers

Deb,

You are in my prayers. I think that your most important statements are these:

"I was a good wife to him--faithful and obedient.

In the three years I have lived with this man, he has been verbally abusive, called me names, and told me I was a lousy wife and bad mother."

Recently, someone explained a Christian model for marriage as the relationship between Jesus and His Church. Just as the Church is called to be "faithful and obedient" to Jesus, a wife is called to be "faithful and obedient" to her husband. On the other side, as Jesus layed down is life because of his Love, so must a husband lay down his life for his wife. A full expression of love as a husband includes sacraficing his entire life for his wife. I think that if you would compare Jesus' love to your husbands, you can more clearly see how God wills your husband to love you.

I can think of a number of ideas to "solve" your problem, but they are much easier to say than to implement! With that said:

1) Pray to God for peace in your relationship.

2) Pray for the strength from God to immunize yourself from his attacks.

3) Be a calming voice--not to reward his improper behavior, but instead to guide him back to a rational, unemotional discussion. His negative behaviors need to be defanged.

4) Gently feel around for the source of his anger. If I were a betting man, I'd say that he has some crisis in his own life that he's taking out on you...trouble at work, trouble with the family, maybe he's not living the life he hoped for when he was younger.

5) Don't isolate yourselves as a couple. Your friends and family probably want the best for you two. That said, it is an important help for them to support your marriage, as long as the help is appropriate and generally welcome by you.

6) 15 minutes of prayer each day. Meditate on the life of Jesus by praying the Rosary each day. Prayer is an effective weapon. 1% of your day in prayer can radically change a person.

Focussing on problems doesn't solve the problems. Focussing on effective solutions solves problems. If you imagine a "better relationship," find the path to that relationship.

Finally, Joan wrote:

"Take time to care for yourself and your children right now. You cannot change him, you can only heal yourself and your pain."

Actually, the generally accepted order of priorities for a Christian spouse is:

1) God

2) Self

3) Spouse

4) Children

I'm sure that children of divorces would support this order. The idea that you can't influence your husband is defeatist. Not believing that a person can influence her spouse is a self-fulfilling prophesy. Unless you've already resigned yourself to abandon an irreparably abusive marriage, pray to God for the strength to be the catalyst for a solution, instead of a powerless victim.

You and your husband are in my prayers,

Mateo.

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 13, 2002.

I'm thinking of you, also.

There is a big difference between being obedient and being a doormat.

None of the good women I've read about in the Bible have come across as doormats. You need to learn to stand up for yourself, since if worst comes to worst and you have to get a divorce, you will need to make sure to get any support due you and and any children of this marriage under the law.

I agree with Mateo, there may be something else wrong with your husband. Perhaps an unknown medical condition, perhaps he's found someone else and won't tell you to your face, could be anything. You might have to be a bit of a sleuth to find out what's really going on. Good luck, and don't stop praying.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 13, 2002.

As I said earlier Mateo...you are living in the wrong century and provide a misogynist outlook. Shame on you.

-- Joan (godessss@mindspring.com), May 13, 2002.

Joan,

Share with the rest of us which line of my post could be characterized as misogynous. You constantly throw out labels at people, and you can't back them up with proof. Shame on you!

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 13, 2002.

Hello Deb,

You say that "....I begged him to go for counseling with me the first year, when I realized we had some problems...." I really dont know what exactly the problem was, but one thing I can clearly see, hopefully, that this problem was going on for quite a long time untill you thought or realise that the suitation is out of control. If it was this, then I tell you that the relation of you and your husband were unhealthy, for quite a long time, which you willingly ignored. There seem to be a lack of communication or possibly misunderstanding between you and your husband.

Tell me the reason why did you do this ? Why did you allow the problem to continue for a long time ? Was not your Catholic duty or in other words a duty as his wife to speak to him openly, and arrive to a conclusion. On the other hand you took him with you to the Pastor, which ultimately spoiled the soup. When you say that your husband came with you once for counceling, it shows that your husband was to some extent a practising Christian(if he was a christian).

I am sure if he really was doing some thing purposely he would have never come with you to meet your pastor. But since he came, and then he ended up disagreeingly with the Pastor, the problem seems that to some extent he feels that there was injustice done to him, by you. He was trying to seek justice by coming to meet your Pastor, which he didnot get. When you say that he screamed and disagreed, it seems the problem has created a type of scar on him which he often reponds to you by saying verbally abusive names, a lousy wife and bad mother etc etc. This shows that he expected some thing from you Deb. Which probably you did not give him or he didnot get.

Deb you have lived with this guy for three years show that still there is a something, if handled carefully could turn this suitation into good. I dont think that you could stay with a person in such a way and suitation for 3 long years. Deb there is yet some thing. I tell you ask God he will show. Invoke the Holy Spirit and he will light your mind. Dont just be in haste. Who knows that this same guy would be more beloved to you after the Holy Spirit shows you the problem.

You say "...My question is, is he sinning by doing this ? ..." I tell you who are you to decide whether he is sinning, when on other hand you say that you are going to the court ? Seems that you are much bothered may be that he should suffer in case you leave him.

You say that ".....I was a good wife to him--faithful and obedient......". Tell me which man or woman will say that he was bad. Every one is good for himself and acceptable by himself. Being a good and faithful obedient wife does not makes you a perfect wife. You have also to be your husbands girlfriend, sweetheart, beloved, friend, princess, which I doubt you could have would have ever been.

Also look into you physical relations with him. There are many couples who have good physical relationship, but actually they use lustfully their spouse as an object when in bed, hope this has not happened with you. Because this suppression by one spouse comes out in marriage in the form of competition, domination, using children against the opposite spouse, etc.

One more thing I would like to know whether your children are closer to you or your husband. Do they like their Daddy more or mummy more ??

There are many couple where I have seen that once the children are born the mother forget that she is a wife besides a mother. She forget that she is a wife and a girlfriend, sweetheart, beloved, of her husband. In short she fails to live the role of a wife, in her love for her children. These types of couples I have seen often land up like your case. If your husband doesnt get what he wants fro you that is love affection etc (not to say physical love), then how do you expect to get the same in return ????

Remember one thing, the life and faith of your children are all dependent on you and your husband. I would only stress one thing dont go for divorce. Try to solve the matter among your self. Ask forgiveness if you have made mistakes. Forgive him if he has done so.

Divorce is not the ultimate solution to end your misery but the opening of a pandoras box, full of problems and sufferings and loneliness. All these thing will sure shot affect your childrens future.

Finally, the role of a mother is equally important as that the role of a father. They both are incomparable. Each has its own place and position in the family.

Many of the boys who lost or didnot get the love of their father turn out to be homosexuals, and vice versa lesbians. This is not some thing invented by me but scientifically proved.

I would like to conclude by saying that prayer are never wasted. I too will remember you in my prayers specially your husband. Try to solve your problem among yourself, compromise forgive, rather than allowing third party interference. Because we all have a little bit of ego which we dont want to lose. The third party only knows to hurt our ego though it may be right, ultimately resulting in killing of a relationship. I end here with a hope that you and your husband will accept each other in arms once again as you did on the day of your marriage. I love really to see you both one again.

God Bless Xavier

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 14, 2002.

Xavier

You have posted the MOST hateful post I have ever witnessed on this forum and I would hope that the rest of the forumites here would back me up in having you chauanistic comments removed immediately.

You have absolutely no evidence of her and her husbands relationship nor the troubles she may have had with him. to make up such hateful and judgemental comment as you have bespeaks of the evil one himself. You are the biggest jerk I have yet to see. You blast out and yet show absolutely not one word of compassion towards her.

My suggestion is for you to request this post of yours to be removed by the moderator and to apologize to the lady. Then to refrain from posting anymore hateful commentaries of this sort in this forum ever again. AS a Catholic, you shame me.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

" Xavier, you have posted the most hateful post I have ever witnessed on this forum as a Catholic. Shame."

We'll your memory is worse than I orginally thought, Fred. I rember you telling me," That you are a crazy biker, and you would like to sink your, "claw hammer" in my skull". This is when, I, was disagreeing with you on the death penalty.

I also rember you telling me, Fred in that same thread," I hate the very ground, that you stand on". I don't know how you can make a outrageous statement like this to Xavier! Please think before you write!

Who are you to ask Xavier to have his post ,because you don't agree with him? I also read you being nasty with a Lady on " Mothers day". Where is your respect for a Lady on "Mothers day", sir?

I want you to "cool your jets", Fred, when someone doesn't agree with you. You don't know everything, Fred! As a matter of fact, I think you are very rusty, around the edges, with your relegion.

God gave you two ears and one mouth. That is why you are suppose to listen more than you speak!

Fred, we have 7 or 8 regular Lady posters now. Lady's are special, and deserve to be treated special. You are going to drive them away with your beligerent mouth! So, PLEASE, STOP, trying to take people's opinion away from them! This forum is NOT, " Fred's way or the highway".

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 14, 2002.

DAVID

I am going to tell you for the last ime --LEAVE ME THE HELL ALONE -- you got that. LEAVE. I am sick of your pea brained rubbish.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

Deb My heart aches for you, your husband and your children. The breakup of a home is a terrible thing. I have prayed for you, that you will experience the peace of Christ; for your husband, that he will seek reconcilliation; and your children, that they will be sheltered by the grace of God.

-- cathy in slovenia (crosways@addall.com), May 14, 2002.

Fred,

You asked for the people on this forum to back you up! I will NOT be part of your nonsense to other people. You even told him, " He is the biggest jerk you ever saw"

I want you to show more respect to new posters, and Lady's! If you didn't want another opinion, you should not of asked for one!

Cool it BUSTER!

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 14, 2002.

Deb,

I will offer some Prayers for you, and your family today. Maybe, you could have a Holy Mass celebrated for your marriage, or intentions?

God bless.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 14, 2002.

BUSTER

You have a hell of a nerve to speak mister. First of all you have absolutely no right, I repeat, no right to be tagging =me around this forum or anywhere else for that matter. It is against the LAW and is covered by Harrasment Laws and furthermore practice what you preach BUSTER. Every post you have ever made has always ended with a cut- down to everyone else in here. You are NOT a fine example of a Christian Catholic and you have clearly proven that to me and everyone else in the world. You are the one who as Joan and her friends do labels all who come to this forum with cut-downs on virtually every post you do.

Again smart ass, I will repeat this again, LEAVE ME ALONE.!!!!!! What part of that don't you understand? I am tired of you rubbish and your rubbish. Now LEAVE ME ALONE>

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

Fred - do try and calm down as this is not a good thing all the yelling and threats. As a biker are you aware of " The Sons Of Thunder " bike group? Very fine people indeed.

-- Jean Bouchard (jeanb@cwk.imag.net), May 14, 2002.

Gentlemen,

I believe that all of these posts are being individually sent to poor Deb! I hope that's the end of the fight.

Anyway, Deb, we're still praying for you and your husband.

In Christ,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 14, 2002.

Jean

Don't get on me. YOU tell your little friend to stay out of my way. GOT THAT.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

Mateo

The reason for my post to Xavier is the Chauvanistic and overly personal attitute he forced on Deb. He was attempting to extort some very personal things upon her and I felt it was not warranted. Having been divorced as a father of two children in 1978, I do have a very vivid memory of the horrors of what the pressures are like. For Xavier to ask her such questions on a public forum is just too demeaning and painful. The poor woman is not Judas Iscariot and should not be treated in such a manner as he did. he was prying into her privacy with his comments and tried to suggest shame onto her without the first hand knowledge of her horrors that she has to face day to day.

Now that I have that of my chest I will remain. Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

Xavier, life changes when you have children--for one thing, YOU are not a child anymore, whereas you still could pretend to be when you were still single, or a DINK (double income, no kids). It is only natural for a Mom to be more concerned with her children, and most MEN are mature enough to accept that, as they too become more responsible. It is a natural part of life, or, to put it bluntly, once you have kids, life as you knew it is OVER. The joy our children bring us more than makes up for this.

For any man to use this as a reason to complain that his wife is not paying attention to him, etc. just shows his total immaturity and lack of committment, not only to his wife, but to his children as well. He needs to grow up.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 14, 2002.

GT

THANKS --Well put. You hit it on the nail.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

GT,

You have a wonderful way with getting to the heart of the matter ("Brevity is the soul of wit"). You write:

"There is a big difference between being obedient and being a doormat."

If Deb's portrayal of her marriage is correct, she's being the doormat. Her husband should be corrected if he is verbally abusing her. Then, you write:

"It is only natural for a Mom to be more concerned with her children, and most MEN are mature enough to accept that, as they too become more responsible."

It sounds as if Deb's husband thinks that he can still "take-take-take" emotionally. He seems to use his attacks on Deb as his own emotional crutch. I pray that God let's him know that he has a responsibility to give 100% emotional support to his spouse.

Moving on to generalities (away from Deb's situation), I want to correct one thing that you inferred. You seem to believe that women today accept their motherhood without a second thought. I know only too many men and women who treat their children like glorified pets. Instead of seeing the blessing, they see a burden that keeps them from their "freedom." Young women today are too often abandoning their "nurturing instinct" because society tells them that motherhood is a loss of freedom and power.

Truth be told, I hope we can discourage the "women are responsible and men are irresponsible" stereotype. I know that you said that most men are responsible, but you inferred that irresponsibility was a problem with male parents. Stereotypes that degrade men are just as insidious as stereotypes that degrade women.

In Christ,

Mateo

PS--Fred, I wasn't singling you out. I think that we can all be corrective of eachother's mistakes without throwing insults at eachother. On the otherhand, maybe Deb will see how unconstructive our verbal abuse is toward eachother and be more inspired to correct her husband behavior! :-)

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 14, 2002.

Mateo, I agree with you. What I was trying to say to Xavier is that too many people (both men and women) think that they can have children and life can go on as it did before, with no changes whatsoever. They can take off for the weekend, no one is ever "too tired" for a little fun, etc. There is (or there should be) adjustment on both sides.

It is tiring and stressful to be breastfeeding (or bottle feeding) and diaper changing for what seems like 7/24, and to always remember to make sure you take the child out of the car when you get out, for example.

I did use the "life as you knew it is OVER" statement to simply bring it home a little more to him. I in no way meant to say that men in general were irresponsible when it came to children, just this particular (Deb's case) one, and those with Xavier's attitude.

On the surface, it seems like a man's life doesn't change much, but in many ways, men take on more stress as well, because now they are not only supporting a spouse (who could support herself without him if push comes to shove), but children too (who cannot). I know that really weighs on a man's mind, especially in these uncertain economic times.

And yes, I know some irresponsible Moms, too, sad to say (mostly divorced ones wasting their child support money on themselves instead of spending it on their children). I agree with Fred that Xavier was really hitting Deb hard, and I saw nothing in her original post that that indicated that she felt her husband was totally at fault. She was willing to go to counselling and examine her own actions, which shows a lot of maturity on her part.

We're still thinking of you, Deb. Please let us know how things are going with you.

-- GT (nospam@nospam.com), May 14, 2002.

I am no counselor. Nor am I married (yet), and therefor I cannot speak from experience. However, I do know of a Mother who can help you out. Mary! I would suggest praying the Rosary daily. None of us know the exact details of this battle, but God dose. And His Mother is more than anxiouse to interced for you.

I place this intention into the Immaculate Heart of Mary, so that as I may forget to pray, she will continue to intercede for your intention.

Don't wory, but put your trust in God.

In Christ. jake

-- Jake Huether (Jake.huether@lamrc.com), May 14, 2002.

Fred, Please watch your language on forum with me! I see those second rate curse-words creeping back in. As a "wise man" told me before on this forum,"this is a open forum, anything you write is fair game!" I don't like reading your bad language, to me! So stop it, please! I am singling your language out!

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 14, 2002.

Hi GT,

I appreciate your wisdom in this department. I'm sure that Deb will benefit from it.

Thanks,

Mateo (future dad?) :-)

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 14, 2002.

David

When in the world are you going to stop you rubbish? When? You are NOT my keeper. Now beat it pea brain.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

Hello Deb:

I'm so sorry to hear about your marriage. I hope you have a good support group! You need some good Godly friends that will cry and pray with you. Please know that God is for you! That He will never leave you or forsake you! That He is not the cause of your husband's bad behavior! If you feel that you and your children are in physical danger, please seek outside help immediately! God does not call you or your children to be a 'punching bags'!

I have to agree with Fred on Xavier's comments. His comments are presumptuous, arrogant, condescending and very hurtful.

Please get help for yourself and your children!

Love,

Gail

-- Gail (rothfarms@socket.net), May 14, 2002.

Children! Children! Go to your rooms for a time out!
We've seen this before. This is not about CP or divorce. This is all about you two now. Either one of you has the power to stop this at any moment you wish to.
Let's see how long it takes to practice your beliefs.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 14, 2002.

Mr moderator

I am asking you to PLEASE tell Mr David Sullivan to please leave me alone. He is becoming a royal pain and I am sick of his following me around like a sick demented old dog. I am more than old enough to be his father and he treats me like this! If he does not stop soon he is going to here a tirade that will blow this forum wide open. It needs to stop or he will face a lawsuit for certain. I am sick of his constant harrassment and it needs to be stopped NOW. I am tired of him and his baloney. I owe him absolutely nothing PERIOD.

THANK YOU SIR.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

Deb,

You didn't mention that your husband was being physically abusive with you and/or your children. If he is (or if you think he could), please listen to Gail's advice and get yourself and your children safely away from harm.

While your marital relationship is a high priority, sometimes the best thing you can do for your husband is keep your distance for a time. Does that make sense?

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 14, 2002.

Mateo

Yes she hinted to us his violent behavior in her original post atthe top. He actually verbally abused the Priest and yelled at him. That should be a clear sign of his abusiveness or at least the potential of it.

Yes Deb, I would highly suggest a restraining order too and if need be a letter from the priest to indicate this behavior would be great too.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

I guess this is the sentence that I ignored:

"I go to court Thursday..."

Well, we're still praying for you, Deb. Please know that you're not alone in your sadness. Here's the Footprints poem, something that has helped me when I am sad:

"In deepest sleep one night I dreamed That on the beach I walked. God was by my side each step And quietly we talked. Then on the ski my life was flashed; The visions all serene. Two sets of footprints in the sand Were there in every scene. But then I noticed in some scenes Of suffering, pain, and strife... Just a single set of footprints At the worst times of my life. God...you said you'd stay by me In good times and in bad Why then did you leave me each time my life was sad? "My precious child," God Answered, "When your life had pain,I knew; The single set of footprints Were the times I carried you."

God bless you,

Mateo

-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), May 14, 2002.

Hi, Deb.

I have said a few Prayers for you. I also want you to know, that From what I read of Xavier's posts he is a fine man. Sometimes people don't put things into words, the way they mean't to! I didn't appreciate Fred calling him a jerk, and "going off" on him, like he typically does when someone disagrees with him.

But, it is hard to put a picture on three years of marriage in the paragraph that I read! God works in mysterious ways, maybe in 6 months you will be the happiest Lady around. Maybe your husband is a "big jerk" and doesn't deserve you. Keep your chin up and believe in yourself, and keep Praying. Everything will work out, because Jesus loves you.

God bless you.

David

PS; Fred, I could care less about you threating the forum with your mouth! What's this about the 6th time you are threating a civil lawsuit? LOL!!! You sound like Elmo, with your "BIG THREATS". I have a right to ask you- Please don't curse at me!

Just because somebody yelled, does not mean they are abusive Fred! Are you abusuive, because you get upset more than anyone! They could be, but maybe you are reading to much into it!

-- David (David@excite.com), May 14, 2002.

David

Again you are acting just like satan and I told you to leave me alone. Yet you just can't do that. What is it you want little boy? You are just being a little punk and I am just about done with you. You have not a clue what it is to shut you damn mouth up for once.

So here is you choice --LAWSUIT COMING.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 14, 2002.

OK boys ...... Break!....... Neutral Corners!!!
Let's pretend that Jesus is your referee.
Now come out and fight like the fine Catholics that you are.
This is beautiful, but painfully reminicent.

-- Chris Coose (ccoose@maine.rr.com), May 14, 2002.

It sounds to me like Deb is really hurting and does not need to subject herself to any more fighting. She came here thinking she would get some direction, compassion and support. Please, let us give her that.

I think Xavier's post was very unkind, to say the least. For once, I absolutely agree with Fred. Xavier had no right to talk to her like that. I'm sure Deb left out a lot of the painful details of her situation. And, just because her husband 'agreed' to go and talk to a priest, does not necessarily make him a good Christian. I don't know that, for sure.

Let us remember that we can say 'what we mean' but we don't have to say it mean!

Some people go to church every day and come home and do not behave like Christians or good Catholics.

I do not know the whole story and neither does anyone else but Deb, her husband and God. Xavier, women stay in abusive situations for many reasons, especially when children are involved - financial reasons, fear of breaking up a home, not wanting the children to be raised without a father, etc....it can be very complicated and is not for you or anyone else to judge.

I will remember you in my prayers, Deb, and your children, husband. I will pray that God directs you to the right path for healing and that God protects you and the children at all times. Going to a priest was a good start, hope you continue on your own if your husband does not want to go. Your priest may direct you to a counselor - sounds to me like you have some self-esteem issues to deal with and counseling can help you with that. Please make sure you do that - it is very important for your emotional well-being. If mommy hurts, the kids hurt too.

Also, I would like to ask all of you if Jesus was present on this forum how would you speak to each other? Dear Jesus, I pray that your spirit touch us all on this forum and let us encourage one another and comfort one another when that is needed. Amen

Dear Jesus, I pray that you lay your healing hands on Deb and her family. Please Dear Jesus, protect them from harm and direct Deb to the right path for healing. Send someone into her path who will guide her and affirm her, Dear Jesus. I pray you touch Deb's husband too. Heal him Jesus and direct his path. Only you, Jesus, knows what is right for Deb and her husband, Only you Dear Jesus know if this marriage can be healed, if it should be healed. Please cover Deb, her children and her husband with your most precious blood and remove whatever darkness is dwelling within this family, Jesus. Thank you and praise you Jesus.

Dear Blessed Virgin Mary, I ask that you watch over your precious daughter Deb, comfort her, love her, and protect her and the children with a Mother's heart. Amen

Deb, please remember these words:

Isaiah 12:2"...I will trust, and will not be afraid, for the Lord God is my strength and my might; he has become my salvation."

Talk to Jesus, Deb, get to know him, invite him into your heart and your home, pray for your husband and ask Jesus to heal your marriage, heal your husband, your family. Prayer changes things, Deb, may God's will be done in this matter. God does help those who helps themselves, Deb - continue with your counseling and come back and let us know how you are doing! God Bless you always - MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 14, 2002.

Dear Deb, Remember that nothing is impossible with God.

"Trust in the Lord with all your heart, and lean not on your understanding. Acknoweldge him and he will direct your path."

Deb, I get my strength, hope, and peace from the Eucharist, and peace from the confessional. If you can, attend daily mass often, and recieve the Eucharist - Jesus will strengthen you and give you hope.

Jesus doesn't always answer our prayers right away, but He 'always' answers them. God bless you with His peace. I can't stop thinking about you and I will remember you in my prayers.

MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 14, 2002.

Hello

Deb, Fred Bishop, David, Mateo, Gail, GT, Jean Bouchard, MaryLu.

Peace be with you all !!! Specially to Fred Bishop !!!

Thanks a lot to all you guys out there. My only prayers specially for Fred is "Father forgive him for he does not know what he says.." Fred says : "...You have posted the MOST hateful post I have ever witnessed on this forum and I would hope that the rest of the forumites here would back me up in having you chauanistic comments removed immediately...."

Fred why do you want other forumites to support your cause ???? Why ???? It seems that you are not strong enough to put up your cause. This act of yours shows cowardness. Why so much of hatred against me ? See the words that you use on this forum ??? You call me a "...jerk...", and what are you ? A saint...ah. Remember you never label me a "jerk" but you have label the one who lives in me. I leave my cause in his hands.

Who are you to tell the forumites to remove my post ? Let Deb and others discern themself what excatly is right for her. Who are you to decide ? Are you her divorce lawyer ??? The hatred I can see in your post is comparable that one can find on any moslem message board.

Fred I have told you all this, not to entice you. As a believer I forgive you and infact love you(and others) more than before as a Catholic. And I do this because God has given me enough grace. The grace of his Spirit. Hope by now you should calm down. May the LORD give you the strength to forgive. Hope next time you will correct others with love, love that builds up and not love that divides. See what harm you have done on this forum.

David Mateo - I thank you for understanding me. God Bless you. I know that I was not able to put words correctly. Sorry for the same. But heavens are the witness that neither was it my intention to hurt Deb. God knows that what ever I have done I have done out of good and not out of malice for Deb.

Mary Lu says : "......She(Deb) came here thinking she would get some direction, compassion and support. Please, let us give her that. ....I think Xavier's post was very unkind, to say the least......"

Mary do you mean to say that this forum is like any other chemist or a medical store where people can come and take pain killers. Isnt it people like us who are to make these people understand or share our opinions. Isnt it our duty to show an insight in their problem so that they can stop taking those pain killers and remove out the cancer itself ?????

People have only made the Church like any other charitable trust organization.

I posted my opinions just because Deb had asked "...I still don't know what I've done wrong. If there are no suggestions, I beg you for your prayers....."

This was the only reason why I pen down my suggestions. I did it so that it may help Deb to get some insight. Now dont tell me that relationship has nothing to do with marriage. They have much to do. A few months ago I read a true story where a women divorced her husband just because he had a habit of snoaring. All these small micro things in our relationship definitely have an impact on our maritial life.

I definitely never made an attempt to convey Deb that she was in wrong shoe. I only wanted to show her from my perspective. And if this has led to a big fight....then guys we have to ask our self who are we, following God or Satan. Are we listening to the Spirit of Jesus Christ or the Spirit of Satan.

MayLu says : "....Some people go to church every day and come home and do not behave like Christians or good Catholics...." Mary I dont go to church every day. But when I go I definitely make good out of it. I think we are all like these. That is why there are so many souls who have not accepted Christ in their life. How will they accept when nobody is bothered or has the guts to take the Bible and preach the victory over death, the love of God for his children.

Mary Lu says : Also, I would like to ask all of you if Jesus was present on this forum how would you speak to each other? Dear Jesus, I pray that your spirit touch us all on this forum and let us encourage one another and comfort one another when that is needed. Amen ..."

This was like a fresh breeze. Thank you MaryLu.

Fred u says : ...As a Catholic you ashamed me....."

I say to you Fred :

Remember the biggest challenge of a fundamentalist is not to obey or listen to others, but make others listen and obey himself.

Catholic priests abuse children ----Yet I am not ashamed to be a Catholic. Catholic's are renouncing their faith ----Yet I am not ashamed to be a Catholic. Divorces are increasing in Catholic Church ----Yet I am not ashamed to be a Catholic. A Catholic nun was forced to drink urine ----Yet I am not ashamed to be a Catholic. There is a small post posted ----Fred says ...As a Catholic you ashamed me !!!!

Fred --------Yet I am not ashamed to be a Catholic.

Infact Fred I am proud that u are my brother in Christ.

God bless you all, Xavier

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 15, 2002.

Xavier

You are totally wrong.. We are not fundamentalists on this forum. We are orthodox in our beliefs and that does not in any way make us fundalmentalist. Fundalmentalists are purely judgementalists who use the verses of the bible to control and condemn others, in here we do not use those methods.

In your previous post in this thread you were in no way helping DEB. You literally condemned her totally for her marriage failures like a wolve chasing a cat. You showed emotions in your post that clearly favored her husband and showed her that it was her fault for the marriage break-up. She has clearly shown that her husband is a chauvanistic snob who never lifted a finger to help her and clearly showed his verbal and physical abuse towards her. You ignored those facts. This man was also very abusive to the parish priest too in his verbal outburst toward him. Deb's husband obviously has more than one problem in his life in seeing this abusive behavior towards others. His is clearly in need of help, fast.

You ignored the fact that it is very difficult for a young woman to bring into this world a young family and to care, feed, clean, and nurture a gang of youngsters and all her husband does is to complain about her and not lift a finger to help. Remember he is just as responsible for the family as she is if not more so on his part.

So next time you post I would ask YOU to think with a compassionate heart and understand her role as a mother and understand that her role as a mother is a lot more than any man, including myself, is a lot more difficult than we will ever realize.

Deb came inhere looking for LOVE and PRAYERS and you chewed her out instead. I suggest you to read the beatitudes and the two greatest commandments of Christ's. AMEN.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

Fred,

Fred says :In your previous post in this thread you were in no way helping DEB. You literally condemned her totally for her marriage failures like a wolve chasing a cat. You showed emotions in your post that clearly favored her husband and showed her that it was her fault for the marriage break-up.

Fred dont say that we are not fundamentalist or orthodox say we are Catholics or Christians.

In fact Fred I never wanted her marriage to break up. Deb said that I will be going to the court this thursday. I did think that may be God could work a miracle for both Deb and her husband. May be the husband will realise his fault or vice versa. As we dont know who is wrong and right. One thing I know that it takes 2 hands to clap. I did sensed that some thing can be done from breaking this marriage. I sure both Deb and her husband need Salvation.

See my earlier post where I have mentioned " Deb you have lived with this guy for three years show that still there is a something, if handled carefully could turn this suitation into good.

Divorce is not the ultimate solution to end your misery but the opening of a pandoras box, full of problems and sufferings and loneliness. All these thing will sure shot affect your childrens future.

I would like to conclude by saying that prayer are never wasted. I too will remember you in my prayers specially your husband. Try to solve your problem among yourself, compromise forgive, rather than allowing third party interference(divorce). Because we all(includes Deb and her husband) have a little bit of ego which we dont want to lose. .......I end here with a hope that you and your husband will accept each other in arms once again as you did on the day of your marriage. I love really to see you both one again.

Analyse my above words and you will notice that I was against divorce between Deb and her husband. Who are we to break the relations. To break what God has united ? Tell me Fred how was I chewing Deb. The final decision rests with Deb whether she wants top divorce or just try for few more days. In these days God would definitely be at her side.

I dont think that next time when I post I should think of Fred Bishop telling me to be compassionate. I think I should be rather be inspired by God, which I was earlier.

By saying that ".....I suggest you to read the beatitudes and the two greatest commandments of Christ's....." You seem to only be acting as a fundamntalist telling me to see the log in your eyes"(see your earlier definition of a fundamntalist). Great !!!!

No hard feelings.

Peace be with you

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 15, 2002.

You may be against divorce but I would not condone the above abuse she has to endure. NEVER. She deserves better. You are too orthodox to understand pain. I know what it is better than you. I have been there and seen it all too. You cannot patch upp a relationship that is filled with hate. Stop looking for excuses.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

Xavier

Read this:

Tell me the reason why did you do this ? Why did you allow the problem to continue for a long time ? Was not your Catholic duty or in other words a duty as his wife to speak to him openly, and arrive to a conclusion. On the other hand you took him with you to the Pastor, which ultimately spoiled the soup. When you say that your husband came with you once for counceling, it shows that your husband was to some extent a practising Christian(if he was a christian).

I am sure if he really was doing some thing purposely he would have never come with you to meet your pastor. But since he came, and then he ended up disagreeingly with the Pastor, the problem seems that to some extent he feels that there was injustice done to him, by you. He was trying to seek justice by coming to meet your Pastor, which he didnot get. When you say that he screamed and disagreed, it seems the problem has created a type of scar on him which he often reponds to you by saying verbally abusive names, a lousy wife and bad mother etc etc. This shows that he expected some thing from you Deb. Which probably you did not give him or he didnot get.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

You showed support of the husband and condemned DEB and her pastor. How convenient of you. You are not reading well I can see that. You TOLD her she may not have been a fit mother, but never showed that he was an unfit husband and father and abusive to both his wife and the pastor. What is it you cannot see? I and the rest on this forum can see your definite chauvanistic attitude. You can't. Have you ever stayed home and dealt with caring for kids for 24 hours a day 7 days a week? She did. Let me tell you it is a hell of a responsibilty and a lot of work. And to put up with his remarks to boot! I would kick his sorry butt out too.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

Xavier,

Sometimes our intent is good, but misunderstood. Perhaps your wording did not convey what was in your heart.

I have never seen an unkind post from you before. Your post just seemed very harsh, please forgive me if I misunderstood what you were trying to convey. Sometimes, Xavier, we have to be very delicate with our wordage when people are hurting. I'm sure you meant well, but please read your post again and put yourself in Deb's shoes and see how what you said to her would make you feel if it was said to you in just that way.

May God give us all the right words to express our thoughts when someone comes to us who is hurting. I ask that Jesus use us as His instruments only, that Jesus speak through us to others. Dear, Jesus, I pray that you bless us all with the gift of wisdom and compassion when we need to reach out to others in pain.

Peace..... MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 15, 2002.

MaryLu

Thanks. You made the point quite clear.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

Fred, and Marylu, I am happy to see you guys put your past behind you and get along so well now!

You guys started out in a tiff and ended up chums. Where have I seen that before with Fred and someone else that is gone now? :-)Hmmmm

Maybe one day, Fred and I, will become chums too! I love you Fred, but I hate your sins. Lets put the past behind us, and start out on a fresh leaf.

David

-- David (David@excite.com), May 15, 2002.

David, so you're going to set the fine example for us to follow, huh? You can start by retracting your nasty statements, including the implication in this particular post. Then we can start on a new leaf.

-- Carolyn (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

David,

Amazing, David, how the Lord can work miracles in your life.

I will speak my mind when I have to David. I don't always have to agree with everyone and everyone does not have to agree with me, David. But, I don't have to be mean with my comments.

I happen to like peace, David and prefer to be on peaceful terms with everyone.

Prayer changes things, David - I have seen it many times - enemies become friends, conflicts are amended.

We can't always get along with each other David, but we can try. MaryLu

-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), May 15, 2002.

Mr Moderator When are you going to tell that 12 year old jerk named David Sullivan to shut his face up once and for all. I am sick to death of his lack of respect to ALL of us on this FORUM.

Do WE have to literally blow this forum up with all the possible expletives to get you to respond? That man has never stopped for months with his direct insults to me, my wife and the forumites on this forum. He has never shown any sense of order, nor compassion for some time and IT NEEDS TO STOP. What in the name of GOD do I have to do to get you to get this imbecile jerk to stop his constant and direct insults on all of the people on this forum.

If you take the time you will see all of his posts always end with a direct insulting slam directed at someone and sometimes a direct racial slur will be directed to boot. I have had several of them and he has done one towards my wife several times too. What is it with your inactions towards this man if you want to think he is one as far as I see he is far from one with his behavior to date.

You tell me what you want me to do!! Do I have to literally blow this forum to bits again to get my point across or what. Believe me I am not afraid to do so. I am sick of the constant harrassment and if it continues I will get a medical order and lawyers order to direct you to stop this man. I am tired of the constant baloney of trying to skirt around him from day to day.

IT IS YOUR CHOICE.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 15, 2002.

Thus says the Lord there will be those who boast of the Lord, but are the evil one in sheeps clothing. AMEN.

-- didididi (cath@vatican.net), May 16, 2002.

didididi,

You have nailed it well. Thanks

God Bless

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 17, 2002.

Xavier

Thanks for the compliment. Yes, I did post that last one above yours.

Blessings.

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 17, 2002.

Fred,

Prove it that it was posted by you.

ha..ha..ha..ha..ha :)

God Bless

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 17, 2002.

Xavier

I don't have to prove it to you that I posted the quote in dispute by you - I did it and that is all I have to day. Thank You. And it is no joke, sir. I have used anonymous posts on occasion as well as others have in many posts on this forum. I was merely saying that there will dare say Lord, Lord and will be indded the one who conceals the truth in sheeps clothing waiting to snare them from the shepherd when his back is turned. This forum is full of such individuals. One only has to open their eyes and see.

Blessings

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 18, 2002.

Typos (rats)

I did it and that is all I have to day

will be indded the one who conceals

Day should be say --- indded should be indeed

-- Fred Bishop (fcbishop@globaleyes.net), May 18, 2002.

I can understand your helpless trying to convince the forumites.....pity !

hehehehehehe... :)

Enjoy

-- Xavier (xavier_david24@yahoo.com), May 20, 2002.

Thanks to all of you for all your help. I did pray and God did answer my prayers. Not the way I thought it would go--the divorce went through--but in a way that has brought me peace of mind. My husband is a damaged person and has been very disappointed by the way his life turned out. This bitterness has been reflected in his relationship with the world and God. When he threatened divorce I told him God had always taken care of me and he laughed. I realized that he has a confusing relationship with God and doesn't really have faith. What I didn't mention in my May post is that he is totally into pornography of the most vicious and abusive type against women. I think he was ashamed of himself for his sickness and turned that against me since he knew I would never go along with him on this depraved path. He was also jealous of my job--I'm a librarian and he's a steel worker. Since I treat people lovingly, they respond lovingly. When we would go out in public, I would get hugs and thank-you's and he seethed. He saw himself as an educator but his masters thesis was rejected 25 years ago for being nonsense and he's been fighting that all these years. He had a chance to rectify it but refused, choosing instead to send 20 years working in marginal part time jobs and sending hate mail to everyone he thinks wronged him. I thought he had gotten on with his life but found out, shortly after the marriage, he was sending hate e-mail to Congress, local politicians, and even the President. My last act of kindness was to inform an English website who had turned him over to New Scotland Yard for sending threatening e-mail that he was a harmless crank. He is isolated now with no friends and an increasing rage as he realizes he is no longer a young man. During the most chaotic last days of the marriage, I had a 'phone call from the bone marrow registry with the news I matched a woman dying of leukemia. This took me out of my problems--I thought I had problems, this poor soul had PROBLEMS--and became a donor. I put myself in God's hands and have been sustained. I'm happy to to be away from him--this is God's will, I know. The children feel safe again--his rages were frightening to all. I'm peaceful in my mind that I did what I could. What I found most interesting that my dear pastor offered to act as my witness if I ever wanted an anullment. He told me that he was scared of my husband, too! Who would have believed? God Bless you all, Deb

-- Deb Myers (rmwording2002@yahoo.com), October 01, 2002.

Deb,

Thanks for following up with the forum. Doesn't happen as much as I'd like to see.

In any case, I am happy you and your family now feel safe. If your ex-husband is as unstable as it appears, you are better off without him. God Bless you and your family.

-- Glenn (glenn@nospam.com), October 01, 2002.

I knew I was getting better when I could pray for him. Pretty astute group here that figured out there was more than what I wrote. The situation became so bad that he tried to forbid my daughter from being in the same room with me when he was present. She called the police on him and they told him he couldn't make such a wacked demand. He also beat our dog until she screamed and would throw my 18 year old cat across the room claiming, "It keeps her young". I didn't mention that MY pastor was HIS pastor for a year until we married and I moved in. I tried at the begining to get him to go for some sort of therapy but he totally refused---I think he was afraid. The only reason he went to father was that he knew Father would totally support him since he was a an old fashioned priest. When that didn't happen he blew a gasket and started to scream like a crazy man. I'm glad I'm away from him!

-- Deb Myers (rmwording2002@yahoo.com), October 01, 2002.

Deb,

I questioned a Jesuit priest in Jerusalem on why some marriages however difficult remain in bond and others break apart. His simple answer was that if it wasn't made in heaven then it would be very hard for love to flow to and from man and wife.

This is not to say that some marriages buy Christ decree will fail but that if one partner fails to show strength even in adversity in his vows to Christ then the Holy Spirit will undoubtfully feel rejected to influence and guide. Christ has no reason to compete with evil, there is no contest.

In this case you may be led away fom this man as Christ does work in mysterious ways to a period of peace and the chance to refresh your soul. Having read your note I don't believe you should suffer anymore for this person but rather believe that better awaits you.

There is no reason to doubt that Christ wants you to be lonely, just allow him to drift you to the person he believes will honour you.

-- aka max (temzil@yahoo.com), October 02, 2002.

Deb

Aka max has put in ways I have not heard before but it is the clearest understanding I have heard in a long time. It may not make sense to you but through out the new testament those who suffered in some way or another felt close to Christ. Those that inflicted pain on believers in Christ were far from him.

As sad as your situation is, you may be feeling stronger for Christ and that intuition inside you, that his Holy Spirit has come to give you foundation that was taken from you.

templers for the protection of Christians and their faith in the middle-east.

-- Joseph (templersinchrist@ananzi.com), October 02, 2002.

Dear Max and Joseph, Your words are so beautiful and give me heart. Thank you for the spiritual repaste. Deb

-- Deb Myers (rmwording2002@yahoo.com), October 11, 2002.