I am truly sorry that OUR forum has come to the point when too high a percentage of the posts are abusive and unrelated to photography. Many of the more knowledgeable, experienced, and generous members are becoming more and more conspicuous by their absence. When I read that Jack Flesher is considering leaving the fellowship (and who can blame him), I am troubled and saddened. Jack, Cosmo, Ken, Jay, Rob, Ralph. George, Bob, Albert, Kirk, Douglas, Dave, Mike, Giles, Andy, John, Stephan, Bill, John, Tony, Andrew, Bob, Al, Dan, Lutz, Paul, Hoyin, Tim. Michael, Robin, and others (I apologize for leaving anyone out) are contributing less and less. Is it because they are less generous with their advice than earlier? Certainly not! Could it be that the questions/statements have little, if anything to do with photography, and the well-meaning, serious questions are responded to with vulger, abusive, and insulting language? I think so! As I have stated before, this forum is interesting and informative for me. Even more than that, it has been the means for building distant and diverse friendships and associations. It does not have to end in frustration and bitterness. It can continue to grow into an even better forum than in the past, for the photography neophytes are learning more and more through participation in the discussions, and who knows, maybe we can contribute something helpful at some point in the future. I have purposely refrained from entering the fray, because I have believed all along that if we would just ignore that which annoys us we will have done the appropriate thing. I still believe that. However, when I read that our best contributors are considering leaving, then I think it is time to stop all this; take a good deep breath; refuse to be drawn into the ugliness; and continue on with a fine forum. Even though I have scant knowledge to pass on, I pledge myself to the above. The question is, I think: How badly do we want OUR forum to survive, and are we willing to manifest the intelligence and decency to ensure that it does?

-- Max Wall (mtwall@earthlink.net), May 11, 2002

Answers

A hundred per cent with you, Max. And, please, everybody, PLEASE, just stop responding to abusive posts, foul language, vulgarity. Just stop! Don't answer! Don't do it! Refrain yourselves! Please, STOP! Here! Now! I beg you! Not one more word! Don't let these people control your lives. Don't you see that's exactly what they're doing every time you respond to their immature provocations? Remember the old 60's line: «What if they started a war and nobody came?» Well, what if they started an abusive thread and nobody answered? Sorry for the capitals, but I really felt like shouting.

-- Olivier (olreiche@videotron.ca), May 11, 2002.

Until perhaps three months ago this used to be a extraordinary place for people to exchange information about the wonderful Leica systems of cameras and lenses, and related issues. I learned an enormous amount from people like Jack Flesher, who is now rightly threatening to disappear, and others who I know only from their names, their intelligence and their generous willingness to offer their many years of knowledge.

It seems to me that almost all the problems on this forum have come since people became scanner-happy and started posting their photographs. People post photographs and then get pathetically upset when they are criticised. Almost all the abuse and idiocy has sprung from this.

If you look at the medium and large format forums, as I do, there is almost no posting of photographs and consequently almost no personal abuse. People can argue about the merits of the Elmar-M 50mm, for example, but the arguments are unlikely to degenerate into personal abuse. But when people post their precious photos, watch out. Mud's about to fly.

So here's my solution. If you post photos, for god's sake don't be thin-skinned: you're going to be upset by what some people think of them. Grow up and get used to it.

-- Christopher Goodwin (christopher.goodwin@gte.net), May 11, 2002.

Max asks, "... and others ...are contributing less and less. Is it because they are less generous with their advice than earlier? Certainly not! Could it be that the questions/statements have little, if anything to do with photography, and the well-meaning, serious questions are responded to with vulger, abusive, and insulting language? I think so!"

Speaking only for myself, Bingo Max! I opened this site three time today, and never spent more than 5 minutes on it at any one time. This has stopped being one of my daily pleasures. It WAS fun while it lasted.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), May 11, 2002.

Max: I agree with you. Whne pictures are posted, and you have a dial-up, it takes F.O.R.E.V.E.R to load them. Months ago, people used links to photos and I enjoyed that more. I have been looking less and less due to the vulgarity and rudeness of the postings. I would like to see it return to a friendly exchange of information, ideas and criticisms. There is room for the technical/equipment side of the discussion and the critique of the postings.

Thank-you Max for putting into words what I feel also.

Mark J. :)

-- Mark Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), May 11, 2002.

Max,

Until today, I just skipped the threads that were started by the few goofballs who now post here. But as used to the wacky internet as I am now, I must admit that I blinked when I saw the word "COCK" in a thread heading this morning. And geez, it's STILL THERE tonight! This place needs to be fumigated, and quickly, before we all leave!

www.stevehoffman.tv

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), May 11, 2002.

Max: You are a true gentleman and have defined the problem with its potential risks (ie, the dissolution of this previously educational and delightful forum) perfectly. I have also pledged to ignore the threads/rantings of one or two misguided/disturbed individuals but their persistence poses a grave threat. We must all ignore them, consider them obstreperous children who will quiet down once they realize that their immature acts no longer attract any attention, and simply move on to bigger and better topics. Tony, please be more vigilant and eliminate any irrelevant threads posted by our wacky friends.. It will not be construed as censorship but simply as good editing--a crucial difference.

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), May 11, 2002.

No need to let them ruin it for everyone else. We all need to participate more, concentrating on sharing our experiences, knowledge, triumphs and mistakes. That way everyone gains insight and can inprove their Leica photography. Let's get positive. I've shared some of my Leica adventures, and an overwhelming percent of the responses where insightful and entertaining. Don't focus on the few, to detriment of the many.

-- Marc Williams (mwilliams111313MI@comcast.net), May 11, 2002.

I am lurking in the background, and I presume others are, too, waiting to see where all this will go. I hope it will get resolved, though it may take photo.net-like registration to do so. It's becoming very difficult to find an interesting, modulated thread to take interest in or contribute to. Maybe things will cycle back around again, but patience has its limits.

Regarding reliance on Tony's efforts to jump instantly on questions or answers that are out of line, let's not forget that Tony has a life, too. We cannot possibly expect him to monitor all this 7x24. We too have to participate in the quality of the forum by our own behavior. Maybe everyone should go out and buy a bottle of "thin skin lotion" and spread it on liberally. All of this is just words, words, words. Refrain from calling someone - anyone - a name. Think 5 minutes before posting a knee-jerk reaction. Is it worth it? Is it constructive? Would you behave that way towards your own family or friends? If someone else behaves that way, is there anything to be gained by pursuing it? Words, words, words.

I would hate to see a ban on in-line photos - think of the Mike Dixon adventures. Links would do, but they wouldn't be as effective. However, if banning in-line photos would accomplish something, I would be ok with it.

-- Ken (kennyshipman@aol.com), May 12, 2002.

This is the first and last time I will comment on the current "problems" this forum is experiencing; Many of us are refusing to contribute and extend the countless pathetic "personal" posts - the ONLY war to revive this forum is for ALL sensible members to TOTALLY ignore ALL the silly postings completely, then we can return to normality.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), May 12, 2002.

I totally agree with Max. Many a time I've received an email that ticks me off- I fire off a reply- but don't send it. I come back to it, and realize that I totally misinterpreted it. I'm no longer ticked off, and what began at most as a misunderstanding never gets out of hand. It's like a rule to follow- something piss you off- compose something to react- but don't send it just yet. Think before hitting 'submit.'

You know it's interesting- like others I've seen a lot of heat heaped on each other. But I don't think I've seen a single apology- has there been one? It so, it seems quite rare. For example, some people get all worked up in a lather about something, only to have it clarified for them later. You'd think there'd be a little apology there. But it's rare. Guess it's hard to apologize on the net. And, to be sure, there are some rather insecure malcontents who make it much easier for folks to check out rather than stay engaged. Then all that happens is that the malcontents just get to read their own drivel.

My $.02

-- Tse-Sung (tsesung@yahoo.com), May 12, 2002.

This thread represents the forceful but thoughtful and judicious argument that I, as a newcomer, had hoped to find here. Unfortunately, the 'intelligence and decency' that Max rightly lauds is all too often drowned out by the sort of ravings that have plagued the forum recently. It has been hijacked and turned on occasion into a Jerry Springer Show, but less highbrow. Who can make any sort of rational impact on the shrieking, clamorous parade of freaks and misfits that is passing before our bemused gaze? I made a predictably futile attempt yesterday when the uproar was at its height to point out that very nom de plume chosen by 'Rose Selavy/Selavie', provocateuse of the latest spat, was a proclamation that she was, like her namesake, out to taunt and mock. Nothing wrong with that, you might say, every court must have its jester. But this has not been just an essentially harmless bit of fun and a healthy puncturing of pomposity; there is malice, contempt and arrogance in it that the occasional flash of humour does not excuse.

We could try to tackle it head on, using its own weapons. I believe Kristian, whose ebullience has attracted some rough treatment, was attempting to do that, but his anger got the better of him and in the end it proved to be self defeating. Bob Todrick has chosen a different form of attack, albeit at the risk, as has been pointed out, of creating 'martyrs'. No, as Giles and others in this thread have stressed, the only tactic that stands a chance of working is a determined refusal to rise to the bait. Some will object to that as negative, a failure to stand up for ourselves. Yet in these circumstances remaining impassive in the face of provocation can be the most positive reaction. Sadly, however, I doubt that it can be made to work. It takes only one victim to break ranks, or an innocent newcomer to wander in and ask what the fuss is about, for the furore to break out all over again. In the end it may well be that only a closed forum, unattractive in some ways, will work.

It will all die down, as these things invariably do. The mischief- makers will eventually bore even themselves and move on to other, more promising targets. Will there still be a forum left at the end of it? Not if, as Max pointed out, the best and most knowledgeable members (invidious to name names, but we all know who they are) pack their bags and leave. Who could blame them? But if they do go then newcomers like me, who have come to learn from such people, will perforce have to look elsewhere. I just hope that when the dust settles some familiar and trusted 'faces' will remain.

Finally (if anyone is still reading), the one I feel for most in all this is Tony Rowlett. How dispiriting it must be to watch something to which you have devoted so much time and energy being casually vandalised. I wouldn't blame him if he, too, decides that it just isn't worth it. I can only say in conclusion that I'm with Max - so long as knowledge and experience remain on offer here, I shall want to stay around to benefit from it.

-- Chris Day (alison.day@btinternet.com), May 12, 2002.

Profanity is the effort of a feeble mind trying to express itself forcefully!

-- Brian E. Harvey (bharvey423@yahoo.com), May 12, 2002.

Max, I'm afraid you're absolutely right. I myself am an example. I used to love this forum, read everything here 2-3 times a day, every day. Was always interested (like you) in new possibilities, old techniques etc etc, things which many good people could always comment well on. Real Leica-information! Now, there is so much junk here (even if not always dirty). If a posting is off-topic enough or even on-topic enough but boring enough, I just ignore it. That's the only way to get ahead. The worst thing is that I, too -- for off-topic-enough stuff -- have now started to add in a few punch lines of my own. I love humour, we need it, but there should be more of the good old stuff we used to see here. Good questions, good answers! I haven't decided on handing in my membership, I've just realized I'm not missing much any more if I don't read anything for even a couple of days. That happened to me with Leica's own forums (in English and in German) too. I haven't looked at anything there for months and I'm sure I haven't missed anything there either. I know I don't know all that much, but I often used to spend a lot of time at least trying to make a good contribution every now and again. Even a list of a dozen or more titles with their blue URLs of those things somebody might not have already discovered themselves. But I don't anymore. Maybe some of them out there are happy, but I'm not.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), May 13, 2002.

Well, this is still my favourite web site and will remain so. I'm not particularly bothered by the lunatic fringe: it's always there in real life and we shouldn't be too surprised to see it rear its ugly head occasionally in this forum. Only a tiny minority of posters indulge in such nonsense and, as others have said, it's best simply to ignore them.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), May 13, 2002.