Wedding Etiquette

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Because it was consuming the other thread and we're obsessed with it.

Questions, comments, things that annoy you.

Have at it.

-- Anonymous, May 10, 2002

Answers

Well, I won't go into mind-numbing minutiae (um, since I've already done that in the wedding threads at 3WA), but my single biggest pet peeve, to end All Wedding Pet Peeves,

is people that bring gifts to the wedding. I will cut a little slack for the older folks (meaning, one's great-gran can be excused, because you're lucky enough that she's still around to be there and all. If a great-gran pulled an impromptu Chicken Dance, I'd be willing to chalk it up to colorful family memories.), but for anybody else I think it's just about the most inconsiderate thing you can do.

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2002

Okay, I'm going to show my wedding ignorance again - what are you suppposed to do with a gift if you don't bring it to the reception? And why don't I know this stuff? Is there some manual I missed somewhere? I didn't grow up in a shack in the woods, honest!

-- Anonymous, May 11, 2002
Ah, Pineapple, my one true love - what is this, about not going into the tiniest detail? You know how hot it gets me!

I can't narrow it down to one thing, because I am insane about this stuff.



-- Anonymous, May 12, 2002
If you buy off the registry, Kay, have the gifts sent to the address on the registry.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2002
Y'all, seriously I knew it would only take me 37 seconds to cheese someone off. This is my my own particular little gaffe magnet arena.

Kay, on this particular point of protocol (the gifts to the wedding), not knowing certainly doesn't mean you were raised in a barn. It's one of those things, like response cards in the invitation, that have evolved as the common practice simply because people have gone away from stringent social etiquette over the years.

The thing is, people forget that you have up to one year to give a wedding present, and that that deadline is really honestly truly totally acceptable. So, there really is no reason to even take a present to the reception -- you could hand-deliver later, or send it to the bride and groom's new home.

I hate it for myriad reasons:

And all because we as a society have become too lazy to have the thing shipped ahead of time to the bride's mother (or whatever the specified address is, as Allison mentioned) -- yet feel too guilty to wait till after the wedding to do it correctly.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2002
Well, I figured I would mess up something in that big ol' long post. That first bullet should have indicated that I am the girl who wished people wouldn't open gifts at a shower.

Um, and also, when I get an invitation in the mail that has a piece of tissue paper in it? I think about the hypothetical shady service provider that Kristin mentioned, which would of course be the printer who convinced the bride to buy the box of pre-cut tissue inserts "which are simply day ree-goor."

Yeah, de rigueur my ass. If you lived in the early days of engraved printing when the ink from the invitation might possibly still be wet enough to smear on the envelope, maybe. But since you aren't Marty McFly with a time machine, creating a real live Victorian wedding for us all, lose the tissues.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2002

Oh my God I want you madly, PG - those tissue inserts were exactly what i was thinking about, in the way of scamming for money and calling it etiquette.

As for gifts at weddings - In my years of standing behind the bar at hundreds, and probably thousands of weddings, I saw so many people stealing from the gift table - almost always a wedding guests, and even worse, lots of pros who show up at hotels dressed in suitable wedding attire, cruise for weddings, and steal. It is easy to get the names of the bride and groom at a hotel reception a few weeks ahead of time, check out their registries online, and decide if it is worth it to cruise their gift table and pick out the Tiffany wrapping paper.

-- Anonymous, May 12, 2002

No chicken dance please

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Wedding guests should never assume the father of the bride paid for the wedding and thank him for a lovely evening. All night, people were going up to my dad and telling him how nice our wedding was. The only thing he paid for was the tuxedo on his back. My husband and I are STILL paying for the wedding. My dad had to repeatedly say, "Don't thank me, thank the happy couple."

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
I think that there is an exception to the "don't bring gifts to the reception" rule, and that's if you're having your reception at your home. My reception is going to be at my family's home, and there's no problem with people bringing gifts to the reception and then having one of my ounger cousins whick them to an upstairs room to be opened on Sunday.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Just out of curiosity, PG -- since I like to think I am not Miss Born- in-a-Barn either, and I had almost the same reaction as Kay did, having brought the gift to all three of the weddings I've attended -- is there a polite way to tell people not to bring gifts to the reception?

(In my defense, the first wedding I was bringing back something I'd picked up in France, and ran the risk of it breaking upon further transit, so it was safer for me to give it immediately. And now that I think of it we may have had SmokerBro's and SmokerSis-in-Law's gifts sent to them via the registry. But the second wedding I distinctly remember we brought the gift.)

And has there been any resolution to the bridesmaid's dress debacle?

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

One addendum to Kristin's list: don't wear a kilt unless you can actually dance in it.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
I agree with Brian in regard to the Chicken Dance and would like to throw in "The Macarena" (sp?) and any other line dances. Although, I do love that bumper sticker that says, "What if the Hokey Pokey really is what it is all about?".

And for that matter, I will also include the fact that I think it is incredibly tacky for any bride who is not Polish to do an apron dance. As far as I know, the Polish are the only ethnic group who can claim this as a tradition...anyone else is just in for the money. We went to a wedding recently where neither the bride nor the groom were Polish and they raked in an additional $500 doing an apron dance...everyone felt so obligated to join in because she worked her way through the crowd and around the tables with her apron. I was horrified.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Things I don't like at weddings*:

1) line dancing of any kind be it the Chicken Dance or the Electric Slide.

2) Dollar Dances

3) the garter toss and, after the bride and her friends reach a certain age when standing out on the dance floor like a herd of single cows would be an embarassment, the bouqet toss. Scratch the age qualifier. I've always thought a pack of women clawing at the air to catch flowers was a little demeaning.

4) most deejays. You know. The kind who hand out keys to old women and little girls in the crowd and at some point, usually right before the cake cutting, get on the mike and ask all the women to bring the keys up "because the groom's settling down now and needs all his apartment keys back." Har dee har. My sister's deejay. I kid you not.

5) head tables

6) balloon archways

* A lot of people have the things I've mentioned at their weddings and do them beautifully and well. I've just seen them done badly and their personal pet peeves of mine.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

There's really no way to tell people not to bring gifts to your wedding or reception without it sounding like, "I don't want your raggedy gift." But I agree with T and pineapple, tables with all the loot on display is just tacky. There should be a designated, secure place to hide the gifts out of sight, and a trusted person whose job it is to get the gifts to that place.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
oh, i love it that head tables got a mention!

i hate head tables, and therefore we will not be having one at our wedding. i think its so overdone to put the wedding party on display like that. and anyhow, by that time the wedding party probably has had enough of each other and would most rather sit with their SO, friends, or family.

(we're having a table just for the two of us, and will be flanked by our family tables on either side.)

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

is there a polite way to tell people not to bring gifts to the reception?

There's not. There's really nothing one can do but grin and bear it. This is why I carry this torch -- hoping that maybe slowly but surely, if enough people are talking about this particular point, word will get out and society will return to not bringing gifts. And I want to reiterate that this is one of those gratingly small details that don't bother most people.

I agree whole-heartedly with Teri, by the way. If the reception is at a private home, the whole ballgame has changed. There is no tacky display, there is no security risk, there is no need to cart everything away at the end of the night.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

And, there is light at the end of the bridesmaid's dress tunnel, WG -- thanks for asking. I am going to post a follow-up entry soon, so as not to consume this (or any other) thread / forum with it again.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
This was unusual, but the bride changed THREE times during the reception into elaborate gowns. Talk about flaunting it.

The whole thing was the wedding from hell. She was totally Bridezilla.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

I totally agree with the statement about garter/bouquet tosses. I have always dreaded the bouquet scramble in particular, and I refuse to subject my single friends to it.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
I totally agree with the statement about garter/bouquet tosses.

As do I. I will probably skip the bouquet toss unless I get seriously goaded into it - I may throw one as I run to the car (Rolls, baby) - but there will definitely, DEFINITELY, be no garter business happening.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Al, I can't believe that you wouldn't want to subject yourself to one of your male wedding guests putting your garter back on your leg (read: as high on the thigh as he can get) with his teeth! It exudes such class and decorum.

(I wish there was a sarcastic font type setting for me to use)

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Duh, I forgot that the guy that catches the garter usually puts it on the woman that catches the bouquet...even still, always quite the tasteful display!

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Oh, especially tasteful as one wedding I went to where the groom was exceedingly clever as to plan his teeth-garter-application so far in advance as to surreptitiously rig it so he emerged from under his new bride's dress with PANTIES in his mouth.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Your Bride's panties, shown to the world at her wedding? Now THAT's swelegant!

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Was that the same wedding where the bride and groom chased each other around the cake table trying to smear icing in each others' hair?

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
We had neither a bouquet toss nor a garter toss at my wedding last fall. I couldn't imagine asking my girlfriends to throw themselves at a bouquet so that they could be the next one to be married, especially since most of them graduated from the same women's college that I did. I am all for meaningful traditions, but that one ain't too meaningful in my book.

Thankfully, we did not have too many people bring gifts to our reception. This was a huge deal for us because our wedding took place where we grew up, not where we currently live. We had to make sure all the gifts got back to my parents' house and then they had to pack them all up and send them to us after we got back from our honeymoon. We were very grateful, of course, and never thought badly of those people who brought the gifts to the reception, but still, it was a bit of a pain for us and for my parents.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Unquestionably.

I am sure they were, you know, trick panties, but I cannot decide if that makes it better or worse.

Have y'all ever been to a wedding where you knew by the behavior of the bride and/or groom at the ceremony or reception that this marriage would surely be shortlived?

I was in a wedding several years ago and the bride SCREAMED at the groom in a room full of people because he had "forgotten" to get a garter for a garter toss. I am sure it was his one moment of tacky- free existance, because he was a total and complete asshole in every way, but at least he did not make a public scene like his blushing bride at the reception.

She is a good friend of mine, and they subsequently and thankfully divorced, but I will never forget that moment standing there with her wailing on him about that stupid garter.

Another example of the evils of garters, people. Avoid them.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Can't you just see the organizing list for the wedding? 1. Select cake.
2. Insure bar has decent scotch.
3. Do a test run of hair and makeup.
4. Buy Trick Panties.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Another keyboard ruined. Thanks, Kristin.

Here's another girl chiming in on no garter / bouquet charade action. I'm in the Allison camp of "maybe as we run out", but since I don't plan to buy a so-called throwaway bouquet, it depends on how committed I am at that moment to keeping my own. My guess is that it will be "not much."

Since this would be the place to ask, I would like to throw something to the inestimable MATH+1 folks:

I was in a wedding a couple of years back at which the mother of the groom insisted that he leave the altar during the processional, in order to walk down the aisle to the back of the church and then escort her to her pew.

The MOTG announced at the rehearsal that this would be happening, and the bride had no idea. The bride had been MOTG-hen-pecked enough at this point (MOTG thought Bride was not blue-blooded enough for her precious precious baby boy, and made her feelings known throughout the engagement in a million small sharp ways. You get the picture.) that she feebly protested once, then burst into tears (became so distraught that she got wasted at the rehearsal dinner, but that's a whole 'nother story).

Now, I reassured my friend later that, no, she was not raised in a barn because she'd never heard of this so-called tradition -- that the whole reason that the FOTG or another family member or usher escorts the MOTG, and that the groom always enters from the side with the other ushers and officiant, is that the groom should walk down the aisle with his bride, and that MOTG was being a nazi.

The bridesmaids speculated late into that evening about the statement the MOTG was making by having her son walk her down the aisle at his own wedding -- to a girl for whom she admittedly didn't care. Were we being hateful and ignorant? Or is this a common practice in some places? I'd never seen such a thing, and I bet I've been to or in twenty weddings.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

I have never heard of such a thing. And it has a very creepy/Oedipal vibe.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
i hate head tables, and therefore we will not be having one at our wedding. i think its so overdone to put the wedding party on display like that. and anyhow, by that time the wedding party probably has had enough of each other and would most rather sit with their SO, friends, or family.

(we're having a table just for the two of us, and will be flanked by our family tables on either side.)

That is exactly what we're doing, thank God. We have our own table for two, and everyone else sits where they would normally sit.

At one wedding I went to, they had a head table for the wedding party, and a second table for the wedding party's dates. That was unfortunate, since a lot of the dates hadn't known each other before the rehearsal dinner the night before. I don't think they had such a great time having to make smalltalk with strangers while their SOs sat somewhere else.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Actually, bouquet/garter doesn't bother me that much, mainly because (a) it seems more of a luck thing than a marriage thing to me, and (b) my relatives do some hilarious shit when these things happen. I still wish I could have sent in that tape to America's Funniest Home Videos when I was 12. Then again, given how I always duck the bouquet...

Y'all would be proud of me: I had the boy BEGGING me to get an invite to this wedding I'd been invited to because he found out he got that weekend off. Unfortunately, he found out he got that weekend off the week before the wedding. I had to repeat to him several times that NO, you cannot get an invitation by then! Argh!

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Re the MOTG having the groom escort her down the aisle: in Jewish weddings, it is customary for the groom to walk down the aisle escorted by both of his parents. I've been to plenty of weddings where that has occurred, and I guess if the FOTG were out of the picture or deceased, the groom would be walking just with his mom. Does that fit into your scenario at all? If not, I'm at a loss.

And as for head tables, we didn't really have a traditional one. We definitely wanted the wedding party to be able to sit next to their dates at dinner, so we split up the whole wedding party between two round tables just like the ones all the other guests were sitting at. Everyone loved it; no one felt like they were on display and appreciated the fact that they got to sit next to their boyfriend/girlfriend/spouse.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Okay, an actual question, because I Just. Don't. Get. why this is regarded as tacky. It's the whole don't mention where you're registered on the invite thing. Now, it's considered very tacky to NOT give a gift, am I correct? It's not so much a bride-is-greedy thing as that's just What's Supposed To Be Done. So if a gift is a requirement, why does it look tacky to admit on the invitation that gifts are going to have to be given here?

Man, I wish I could just go the "here's our wedding website" and link to the registry from there route. I know how word-of-mouth is SO reliable sometimes... Alas, most of the relatives either have no idea what the Internet is or can't do anything other than forward me stupid ass jokes five times a day.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002

Gifts are never obligatory. Yes, everyone gives them at weddings, but no, guests are not required to give gifts. That is why they are called Gifts, and not Graft.

-- Anonymous, May 13, 2002
Plus, it is not imperative that guests purchase from a couple's registry. There are dozens of other lovely wedding gift options; the registry just makes things simpler for some people. Hence, having the registry info on an invite is unnecessary (and unsightly.)

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002
We decided to have a cocktail reception and not serve a dinner at all. Just heavy hors d'ouevres and an open bar. I went back and forth on this, hoping that the guests would not think it tacky that they weren't getting a meal, but after soliciting many opinions (including all you MATH-letes, thanks!) we decided to go the non- dinner route. I am so glad that we did, because it gets me out of making the seating arrangement decision. For all of the reasons above, I dislike head tables. I'm not sure I'd feel comfy with 200 people looking at me and my beloved while we ate dinner at our table for two. With the cocktail party idea, we're doing a ton of cafe tables* and letting people mix, mingle, sit and stand as they see fit. Hopefully, it will come off nicely and everyone will enjoy that. Laid back elegance is what we're going for here.

* Another wedding pet peeve is brides who eschew a seating chart, but don't provide enough tables so that if absolutely everyone sat down at the same time, there would be space for all. I was actually at a very swank affair at a country club that was a buffet style dinner and everyone essentially got food at the same time and many were left standing with plates because this girl did not have enough chairs. Bad form.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

I think everything has been covered here for the most part even thought I could go into a pretty good tirade over how the bridesmaid's dresses are supposed to match the punch, and how ESPECIALLY tacky having little children dressed as a Jr. Bride and Groom...cutsie does not belong at a wedding (yes, I'm southern...thank ya'll for askin').

But I think the two all time greatest wedding faux pas are: Cake Shoving in Faces (grounds for automatic annulment on the spot) and "There Is Love" played during the ceremony. No explaination needed.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Cake Shoving in Faces (grounds for automatic annulment on the spot)

Thank God this is not law, or I would never have been born. My father, always the consumate jokester, did the Cake Shove. I often wonder, when I look at my parents' wedding pictures, what his very polite mother must have said to him about it later.

I have no need to wonder what MY mother said about it, as it is evident from the photographs that she was plotting her revenge even then.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Note to all those below the Mason-Dixon line: if the idea of your drunken groom and his male relatives serenading you with "You Never Even Call Me By My Name" fills you with horror, take steps to prevent its happening well in advance.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002
Haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.

Oh, that made me laugh WG. Especially since the likliehood of it happening at my wedding - only it would be sung by the bridesmaids, definitely - is high. Unfortunately, two of my high school friends and I are obsessed with that song to the point that we have not only SEEN David Allen Coe in concert (at The Varsity in Tuscaloosa, AL), but I recently purchased his Greatest Hits album on CD because... my TAPE wore OUT long ago.

Hey, there's no point in me being ashamed of it. I consider my friends and myself to be fairly high class, but not when it comes to "Mama, trains, trucks, prison and getting drunk." I mean, we all have our limits.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Oooooh, I hate it when the flower girls look like little brides. (You see a LOT of this in Vegas.)

They're supposed to look like girls. How hard is that to grasp?

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Al, SmokerSis-in-Law took it very well. Better than she did the shotgun, painted white, that her brother-in-law-to-be presented her. (His logic: "Well, it is Arkansas.")

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002
Oooooh, I hate it when the flower girls look like little brides.

I have never seen that. What sort of thinking goes into that plan?

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Ask Patsy Ramsey.

(Low blow...sorry)

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Actually it's kind of hard to find a flower girl dress that doesn't look like a little bridal gown. Two years ago all of them on the racks at David's Bridal were white or ivory and all floofy. They even have little tiaras for them.

You know what's even more tack-ay? A junior bridesmaid dressed like a miniature bride. Apparently that is what my cousin (11) is wearing in my other cousin's wedding on Aug. 10. I can't WAIT to see it.

And they BEGGED me to bring my baby, who will be around six weeks old then, to the wedding. The hell? I don't want to hear any complaints if she screams the whole time.

-- Anonymous, May 14, 2002

Okay, we're on a tight budget for our wedding, and so we invited most of our friends alone. They all know each other, so we figured that they'd be able to hang out en masse and not need to bring dates for protection. Also, we didn't really want people we've never met at our wedding. Obviously, when someone was in a long-term relationship we included the partner. But we didn't put any "and guests"s. Now people are replying to invitations, and adding a date to the response card.

Am I a bitch to be annoyed? Was I wrong to think that people would understand that an invitation addressed to them was to them alone?

Is it all our fault for including a response card?

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

If you invite someone who doesn't have a Signifigant Other, it is fine to invite them singly. But if you invited people singly who do have long term companions, it gets murkier, because couples function together as a single Social Unit and should be invited together.

However, anyone that got a single invite should have sucked it up, and either replied with a no, or not added someone on with them. I never understand why people feel comfortable doing that - my best friend got married last fall, and she got all kinds of "I don't want to go by myself, I will scrounge up a date" replies. Like the bride wants to pay for someone who got 'scrounged up.'

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Violet, you are well within your rights to be annoyed. I think people forget that adding extras to the invite adds at least $30 to the wedding budget.

Adding people - especially adding CHILDREN - who are uninvited to a function is the brashest display of selfish behavior. I certainly sympathize with people who have difficulties finding babysitters or childcare, but the solution is just to regretfully decline the invitation. And if you are a guest who can't show up by yourself to celebrate the union of two friends, you are too self-consumed to understand that this event is not about you.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

Is it all our fault for including a response card?

Certainly not. It's the fault of your guests for not realizing that if the inner envelope says, "Miss Susie Smith," then ONLY Miss Susie Smith is invited, NOT Miss Susie Smith and Mr. Bob Johnson and Aunt Martha, who happens to be in town that weekend.

We had to use response cards - since 3/4 of our guests were coming from out of town, we bit the bullet and included the damn things - but we made sure not to phrase them, "_______ Number attending" as that opens it up for people to put that they will be accompanied by four people. Instead, we put, "M___________________ / Will _______ attend" leaving them to write their name and write if they are not attending.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

but we made sure not to phrase them, "_______ Number attending"

I noticed that, and thought it a brilliant solution. Of course, the Amazingly Clueless could still write-in Cousin Betty Lou and her three precious young-uns on the bottom of the card, but one hopes the T wedding will not have to suffer any of those guests.

-- Anonymous, May 15, 2002

I don't even know how the response card is phrased. My (future) mother in law ordered the invitations. I have never even seen the invitations.

This is what I get for trying to organize a US wedding from Uzbekistan.

-- Anonymous, May 16, 2002

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002
I'm no Emily Post, but I'm pretty sure that's not proper etiquitte.

-- Anonymous, May 20, 2002
Is it just me, or all the bridesmaids profiles empty? And how interesting that the woman in first place to be booted is not only the only woman of color, but the heaviest, too?

Jeez.

-- Anonymous, May 24, 2002

Ok... I have a question I am sure y'all can answer. I went to a wedding tonight and beside the groomsmen, and bridesmaids, and ushers, they also had a group of about 5 women that were referred to as the "house party". This was something I hadn't heard of before, and wondered what exactly was their function?

-- Anonymous, May 25, 2002
Well, I went to my first "personal shower" (better known in my house as the panty party), and it was for a girl that I don't know all that well but we're friends. Figuring on what I would normally expect at a lingerie shower, I got her something sexy and see through. The thing is, the rest of the guests bought extremely toned down stuff, more like you would wear for comfort instead of a "get it on" sort of thing. Granted, I've never been to one, but that's what logic tells me. Did I overstep the bounds by getting her something TOO sexy? It's freaking lingerie, for goodness sake!

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2002
Christi, the "houseparty" is one of those great social traditions that, if done properly, is lovely and charming and really personalizes a wedding, but generally is done really badly.

In a perfect world, the houseparty consists of what are known as the 'to pours' - lovely young women, friends of the bride or sisters of the groom, who, rather than serving as bridesmaids, serve punch or tea (hence the name 'to pours') or maybe pass a few trays of sandwiches around. The important thing to remember is that all this is done at a wedding reception held in a house, with the 'to pours' wielding mummy's nicest silver and crystal.

Snarky people refer to the 'to pour girls' as the 'too poor girls', ie, friends too poor to afford to be in the wedding party, what with Bridezilla forcing all the attendents into $800 dresses and Jimmy Choo shoes, and making them do the rounds of spas and girls weekends and basically running their credit cards up to astronomical levels.

Being designated 'to pour' is a nice way of moving up the next generation - new initiates do it at Senior Tea in some Sororities, at weddings, the cousin who is too old for junior bridesmaid but not quite old enough for bridesmaid, at women's clubs, college aged daughters are brought in 'to pour' to assess whether or not they will end up members.

House party members can do other nice little social things as well - show guests where to leave their wraps, stand by the guestbook. The idea is, they help out, but aren't working. A houseparty members 'job' shouldn't take up more than half an hour to forty-five minutes of the day. They are not 'staff'.

Where it usually goes wrong is when the Belles From Hell decide to substitute 'houseparty members' for 'catering staff', in order to save on their catering costs. For the record, you don't have a 'houseparty' unless you are in a house, or in a rented hall, if the silver, crystal and china are not rented.

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2002

Thanks for the information, Kristin. That does seem to somewhat mesh with what I saw these women doing. Thanks for clearing it up for me!

-- Anonymous, May 27, 2002
And because I can't resist a wedding post, I'll throw in the 2 cents for the Southern chunk of the country. House parties are very common down here, and it is also a way to incorporate the girls too young for bridesmaid status but too old for flower girl. But, primarily it is used as a way to recognize the girlfriends/cousins that "don't make the first cut" -- i.e. you've already got your three sisters and the groom's sister-in-law standing with you at the altar, but you want a way to honor your college roommate, and your best pal from high school who is going to be just way too pregnant in six months.

Members of the house party might assist in hosting showers if they like (but it is by no stretch of the imagination a requirement), and might be invited to wear a color similar or complementary to the bridesmaids' gowns, and would receive a corsage to wear on the day of the wedding. They are traditionally invited to all the pre-wedding festivities, but not necessarily the rehearsal dinner -- though commonly, a member of the house party would be asked to be the "stand- in" bride at the rehearsal. And of course, the real perk: they are always named in the wedding announcement in the paper -- witness an old classmate of mine (though, ahem, she obviously should have chosen more house party and fewer bridal party).

-- Anonymous, May 28, 2002

So if a couple has a big engagement bash (to which they invite all the people who aren't getting invites to their very small wedding), do they expect gifts? Is there a way of asking discreetly if no information is included in the invite?

(Background: this is my high school bf and his fiancée, and I haven't received the actual invite yet, just an email from him to get my mailing address to send the invite.)

-- Anonymous, May 29, 2002

The MOC and I had a small engagement party - really because another of my friends was getting married the same weekend in my hometown and thus my entire gang would be on the scene, so it was a matter of convenience.

It was an extremely casual affair - just a chance for us all to get together - and I was genuinely surprised to receive a few gifts. They even made me open them at the party (which was mortifying, because I did not consider this an event at which we were to be "showered").

This, of course, was a party attended mostly by people who will not only be at our wedding, but in it, so the situation is different from the one you describe, WG.

I sort of thought that engagement parties were just to celebrate the engagement - just a party to come to and be happy. But, I can only assume that it would not be inappropriate to take your wedding gift to the party. If you feel weird about it, however, just send it later, after the wedding.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

WG, not to worry - engagement presents only come from the Bride's family to the Bride, and from her most intimate friends - and generally speaking, they aren't brought to the engagement party, since until the engagement is 'announced' by the parents at said party, everyone is pretending they don't actually know about it, even though they have spent countless hours by then listening to the new bride drone on and on and on about her new ring.

They get mailed directly to the Bride, and it is a safe bet that if you don't have her home address memorized, you are off the hook sending her a present for her engagement.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

I'd be shocked if my ex and his fiancée are pretending that no one knows about their engagement, since they've been engaged almost a year (they were originally tentatively scheduled to be married last fall and then World Events occurred). The other thing is that this party is going to be in the groom's hometown, not the bride's. (They may have a separate party in the bride's hometown that I wouldn't know of.)

But thanks, guys -- I'll assume no gift for now. Because if nobody brings a gift except the long-ago ex-girlfriend? That's not going to look good.

-- Anonymous, May 30, 2002

What do you guys think of the idea of having a male friend as a maid of honor? Emily Post says no, a thousand times no and she gives some good reasons (the MoH helps the bride to get dressed, for one). But, a guy friend of mine told me that his best gal friend would like him to be her maid of honor (bachelor of honor?). Ideas? Thoughts?

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002
I think that in principle, Emily Post is correct. However, she's correct for a particular kind of wedding. In my view, it depends on the kind of wedding you're having: will you need help getting dressed, or can you step into your dress by yourself and have a junior (female) bridesmaid zip you up? Is this a big (or even not-so-big), traditional church wedding, or something smaller and/or civil with only immediate family and your closest friends in attendance? My best friends, who are a couple I have known since approximately the womb, are going to be my Best People. I think I'll be getting away with this for two reasons: 1) the guest list for our (civil) ceremony tops out at 32 people; and 2) I have simply, firmly, and smilingly informed everyone that it will be so.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002
Screw Emily Post. I'm having a woman as one of my groomspeople. I figured I would rather look back at my wedding pictures 25 years from now and see people who I'm still close with and it meant a lot having them there with me vs. looking at pictures of people who have disappearred from my life but feeling good knowing I followed tradition.

Do what you want , its your wedding.

Then again, I won't need help getting dressed.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

My good friend served as best man (tux and all) at her best friend's wedding. I don't see anything wrong with switching sexes.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002
and 2) I have simply, firmly, and smilingly informed everyone that it will be so

This is the best tactic to take on informing people about any decisions you've made. Not ONLY will Chris be having our friend Pam in his wedding party, but he is having a total of four people stand up with him, and I am having a total of five stand with me. (If it was up to me, and if it was physically possible in the church, I would have our attendants stand in a circle around us, rather than perched up on the sides.)

What was I going to do? Ask him to ask someone he didn't want in his wedding party to be up there, travel to the wedding, pay for all the tux crap, attend all the required events... just because we want it to be "even?" It's not a stage play, people.

And as far as it being non-traditional, I disagree with that choice of phrase. We're getting married in a 100-year-old church. All the music will be high church in the extreme. I'm wearing a white dress, Chris is wearing a black tux. I mean, it will be "traditional" in the true sense of the word, in that we will be performing this grand ritual for something that would otherwise take 15 minutes and a few signatures down at the courthouse - rather than "Traditional" in the way that most people consider it, when what they mean is actually "Trendy."

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

- rather than "Traditional" in the way that most people consider it, when what they mean is actually "Trendy."

Ok, point taken -- I was conflating the two, when they're really different things. I was including the shrieking concept of "Oh, what in the world will Old Mrs. Arbutus ever think of a male bridesmaid?!" in my definition of "Traditional", which isn't fair. Of course, if we want to take it even further, we could say that there's really no such thing as a non-traditional wedding, since by getting married, we're all participating in & perpetuation very old rituals and making them our own in certain ways.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

Oh, sophie, I totally agree with you.

It's all very nerve-wracking, the whole "What would my sainted aunt think?" thing.

I truly admire people who do it "their way." I thought I would be able to do that, but it doesn't seem so. I am trying not to care about such things, but when I tell people some detail and they say "Oh... I... how interesting..." it gets to me a little. I guarantee, however, that by the time the wedding rolls around, I really won't care.

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

It is so hard not to let responses like that get to you. Marcus & I are trying to strike a balance between doing our own thang and not throwing people off so much that they don't realize they're at a wedding. It is rough stuff indeed, but getting to a place where you know which items are negotiable & which ones simply are not has helped me tremendously. And it sounds like you & The MOC are there, too, with your asymmetrical attendants, and selecting the china you really loved in spite of JoLowe's not loving it (I'm assuming you went with lovely Audun? M & I chose Casa Azul in the end. Go, Villeroy & Boch!).

Ultimately, I think if you make your choices known with grace & tact, nobody's going to get their panties in a twist over what will undoubtedly be a day of great joy for everyone involved.

(Oh, and d'oh! I meant "perpetuatING," not "perpetuaTION." I can use words so good!)

-- Anonymous, June 05, 2002

Thanks, all. I just got an email from my friend and his friend has declared he will be her "Dude of Honor" for the ceremony (which isn't for a while yet). I have a feeling this will be an interesting wedding. Apparently she wants to have it at the Disneyland resort and may have my friend dress in a Winnie the Pooh costume. Definitely not traditional. Hee.

-- Anonymous, June 07, 2002
Okay, my lovelies. I've a tough one for you.

A friend is leaving her fiance today. She already returned the ring last weekend and is planning on making it official (with him) this afternoon sometime. Without going into too much detail, I will just say that I support her decision, because she believes it is the best one for her. They were to be wed on August 10.

Obviously, EVERYTHING is in the works right now. Deposits everywhere, invites about to go out, and already, a shower or two. So, given that she is leaning on me an awful lot to help her through this (which I don't mind at all. I love her and am there for her..I just have little clue as to how to go about this whole calling off the wedding thing), I was hoping for a few suggestions from you all:

1. Since the invites haven't gone out, does she have to send an announcement to *everyone* who was on her guest list, anyway? Many of these people have already participated in a shower, or in some way with the plans, but there are also a lot who have not.

2. How should this announcement be worded? Simply, I hope. Any suggestions?

3. What does she do with the gifts she's already received? Mail them all back to everyone? What about ultrapersonal gifts she's received (such as bath and body things, chocolate, etc) that may have been partially used? (I realize you're not supposed to use anything til after the wedding. She hasn't put to use any of her new appliances or furnishings or anything yet.)

4. Her fiance's parents were paying for the wedding, basically. Does she, as the ender of the impending nuptuals, have to repay them the deposits? Or is that something that both of them should take care of? (I actually have a feeling the fiance's parents will not demand this of her, but I'm curious...)

Okay, so yeah. Thanks. :) edited at little a's request -- Al

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Wow, little a, that's tough.

I am sure there is line-by-line etiquette written about this somewhere.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Well, I don't know all the answers, but I do know that she should return every gift, if possible. Obviously food items and the such she can't, but everything else? Absolutely.

And I would imagine that in some cases they should be able to get back some of the deposit money. I'm sure it depends, but for the deposit money that won't be returned, she should offer to reimburse them. Hopefully they'll decline, but she should offer.

And if invites haven't gone out I wouldn't think she'd have to send an annoucement. Word will get around.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Wow, I am so sorry for your friend. But at least she's doing this hard thing now, rather than later when it might be even harder.

I too think she should make her best effort to return any of the shower gifts that weren't eaten or used. Also, since the invitations were never mailed, I think the only people who need a written notification that the wedding isn't going to happen are those who went to showers and/or gave gifts. Unless there was a family member on the ex-fiancee's side she was particularly close to, in which case she might want to send a personal note.

I kind of feel like your friend doesn't owe her ex's parents anything for the deposits on the wedding venues and such. I guess anyone who would make those deposits knows there's a chance they might lose the money, that's why we have to make deposits in the first place. But I imagine offering to reimburse is the polite thing to do under any circumstances.

Here's an etiquette question: when somebody inevitably asks your friend, "WHY??" how is she going to say "none of your business" in a polite way?

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Been here. My godparents' daughter, my VBF since birth, did this exact thing. Six weeks out, the Vera Wang gowns all shipped, five parties already hosted... it was a nightmare.

Ali, it isn't just the deposits to the vendors and the gifts she's already received. Your friend needs to help her bridesmaids as well, who have probably already spent money on dresses and accessories that they will (let's be honest) never use. Maybe the store has a policy that allows a buyback on a dress that hasn't been worn or altered. If not, she needs to offer to pay them back (though they should decline).

As for the deposits, she should offer to pay back the groom's parents, and hopefully they will decline also.

All gifts that haven't been used or monogrammed should be returned -- even the bath stuff. In the case of the others, your friend should try to do something especially nice for the giver, like handwrite a letter (not just a foldover) with profuse thanks, or even send a small token of thanks if the gift was very expensive (monogrammed silver, for example).

Even though the invitations haven't gone out, there are other things to consider in re announcing a cancelled wedding: did a save-the-date card go out? If so, everyone that got it gets a written announcement. (Obviously, all family members and close friends, including everyone scheduled to be in the wedding party, must be told in person, or by phone)

And, if it's likely that everyone on the invitation list knows about the wedding, then I believe they should all receive a written announcement. The announcement doesn't have to be fancy or expensive - - it just has to be fast:

Mr. & Mrs. Father OftheGroom
regret to announce that the wedding of
Her Name
to
Groom's Name
will not take place on August 10, 2002.

This could be on a quarter-page-sized piece of card stock, in a plain font -- Kinko's could get them done in an hour for her.

Now... one thing I am not sure about: is it the groom's parents (who were to be the hosts) that announce? Or is it the bride's parents (since she is the "responsible party"?) I'll have to see what Emily says... I am rusty here.

My "godsister" (or whatever) also sent bouquets of flowers to the ladies that were hosting parties in her honor that had not taken place yet -- since they were also cancelling their events, and losing money, theoretically.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Emily doesn't specify which parents announce and why. Her example shows the bride's parents, but that could be because she assumes the bride's family is hosting. I suppose the parents could be eliminated completely: "Jane Smith regrets to announce that her wedding to John Doe will not take place, et al.".

Also, the rule seems to be officially as Hannah said it: if the invitations haven't gone out, then not everybody needs an announcement. I disagree with Emily here though... what if your friend assumes that people "will just find out", but not everyone does, and then someone who knows about the wedding date doesn't receive an invite and doesn't know why...? yick. Sticky.

Emily Post also suggests a phone tree... get close friends to help call people, so that the distraught ex-bride and -groom don't have to field the questions.

When Tina did this and had to deal with the questions, her response was to smile wistfully and say "Tim and I decided that a successful marriage was more important than a successful wedding. Thanks for asking." -- this shut people up right away.

This was a hard and brave thing for your friend to do, Ali -- my heart goes out to her.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

Um? Also? Because I am trying to totally thread-jack here??

I was not dead-on about the gifts, according to Emily. Anything that is monogrammed or has been used is kept, and everything "of value" goes back. I'd guess the "of value" means that perishables (bath, food, etc.) are also kept.

-- Anonymous, June 10, 2002

I don't know if this would help anyone, but it looks like a kickass website AND it was featured on NPR this morning.

http://www.indiebride.com

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Indiebride rocks. And they finally did the NPR story on it, too. I hope it's on their site someplace.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002
Ooooh, thanks, MOC! That's my kind of bridal site.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002
See, I heard that NPR story, too, and I still don't see why people need a website, a guide, whatever - to tell them that it's okay to have whatever kind of wedding they want. Poor C had to put up with me yelling responses back to the radio this morning, especially when they acknowledged that there actually is, in real life, a wedding issues therapist.

For god's sake - a therapist?? If a bride is compelled to go to a wedding-specific therapist, I think that she has left the anti- bride/indiebride phase and crossed clear back over into the classic Bridezilla phase.

I also think that the NPR piece ignored the fact that there are Anti- Bridezillas, along with the traditional, spend-eight-hours-a-day-at- theknot.com, centerpiece-obsessed Bridezillas. There are brides that are so obsessed with having an anti-wedding that they drive their friends and loved ones completely nuts, regardless of how they plan their wedding.

People. Have your wedding however you like. Wear red, wear black, wear a RennFest costume. So long as you aren't outright rude to anyone or do something completely tacky, like send pre-printed thank- you notes, you'll be a-okay. The most beautiful weddings are the ones that truly reflect the couple that is getting married, whether the wedding is in a garden, on a boat, in a friend's backyard. I've been to $80,000 weddings that were bland and impersonal, and $3,000 weddings that were touching, tear-jerking, personal, and extraordinary good times...

Which leads to my next beef with the NPR piece, which closed by saying that you needed to be an anti-bride to avoid being an in-the- red bride. I have a big problem with that statement, as to me, it implies that anyone who has an all-out traditional wedding must certainly be blowing their daddy's retirement account. All it takes is a little planning and creativity and you can have whatever kind of wedding you want at whatever budget you need to stick to. It shouldn't take a genre to get that point across.

Anyway. I guess that story really stuck in my craw. Carry on.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Gah! I forgot the part that irked me the most: when the NPR story referred to the anti-bride genre as a subset of the "girl power" movement.

So - if you enjoy flipping through In Style Weddings, you should just go ahead and include the "Obey" part in your vows as clearly, you're a goner with no hope of ever embracing feminist theory?

(I'm taking an extreme readingof the NPR story. Forgive me.)

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

T, I totally get what you're saying about the anti-bride and indiebride stuff, but as a bride-to-be who owns both the Anti-Bride Wedding Planner and every issue of every bridal magazine ever published between 1972 and 2002, I can honestly say that I also get the other side.

When dealing with people's views of what is "appropriate" and having to defend yourself against their perceptions of what is traditional, one cannot help but adopt an indiebride attitude. It's frustrating when people who prefer pre-packaged, impersonal weddings try to reign over your own creativity and say "What do you mean you're having an uneven number of attendants?!"

I'm not explaining it well, but I know you know what I mean. You had what is possibly the most beautiful wedding I have ever attended, and you did it "yooooooour waaaaaaay!" as Sinatra would say. I can't imagine that there was any component of the entire weekend that anyone could have given you backchat over, because it was flawless.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Yay, T! I haven't read the indiebride.com site, nor did I hear the NPR story, but I agree that the stereotypes of brides-to-be have become a wee bit excessive.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002
I still don't see why people need a website, a guide, whatever - to tell them that it's okay to have whatever kind of wedding they want. [...] People. Have your wedding however you like.

You're right that people should have the kind of wedding they want to have, but given the overwhelming presence and voice of The Wedding Industry, it can often seem to the newly engaged couple that they really don't have a choice about how to plan their wedding. It's all too easy to get swept away on a tidal wave of tulle and jordan almonds.

Often, an engagement announcement equates (in the minds of some people) an announcement of open season on the offering of unsolicited opinions on everything to do with the planning of the forthcoming wedding, along the lines of what Al said about asymmetrical, or even co-ed groups of attendants. People get their panties in a twist over these things, and they feel entitled to share the non-joy of that panty-twisting with soon-to-be-brides, and so it's a huge comfort to have a site like indiebride.com or The Anti-Bride Guide there saying essentially what you're saying, T, which is, do it your way, do it affordably, do it so it reflects your personalities & relationship.

The only thing I don't like about things like indiebride and Martha Stewart Weddings alike is the monolithic way they can present things, like you can't have both white gown and male attendants. I mean, it's not all black & white, so mix it up -- you can be an indie martha riotgrrrl instyle bride, or any combination of those components. That's the point I take away from a site like indiebride.com, anyway.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

The only thing I don't like about things like indiebride and Martha Stewart Weddings alike is the monolithic way they can present things, like you can't have both white gown and male attendants. I mean, it's not all black & white, so mix it up -- you can be an indie martha riotgrrrl instyle bride, or any combination of those components.

sophie, it's too bad we're marrying other people and thus, cannot marry each other, because we are of ONE mind about this subject.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Go on, y'all!!! I agree, a wedding-specific therapist? Good Lord. I guess a lot of people's lack of sense of self/or and ability to make decisions with confidence must really come to light when they plan a wedding. At least they're getting help, I suppose.

I wasn't sure whether to put this in Bridal Showers or Wedding Etiquette, but anyhoo -- I went to my cousin's bridal shower this weekend and something kind of made me pause. I had received a nice invitation to the shower, personally addressed to me, in the mail. However when I got to the actual shower and was asked to sign the "memory book" and "memory board" (whatever) I was also asked to self-address a plain envelope that will obviously be used to send me a thank-you note from the bride. Now, I can see writing down your address for the bride if she wasn't sure of it and had CALLED you with the invite or something. But if she doesn't know my address, her hostess obviously does. Isn't it just laziness? I suppose if I can haul my 8 1/2 month pregnant ass to the store to buy her gift and drive a freakin hour to get to her shower, she can ADDRESS MY FLIPPIN THANK YOU NOTE, right?

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Oh, Al, I'm sure that we can work something out. Some kind of marriage timeshare thing. Or the four of us could just all marry each other: we'd consolidate our libraries & music collections and just loll about on the couches with various volumes of the LOTR series and historical biographies and rock history/analysis. And then when we're hungry, we can all prepare meals using the good knives and eat off our complementary Villeroy & Boch dishes.

Meanwhile, in Tacksville, I'm appalled by the laziness of that bride, Aidan! Yeeesh. Surely, the bride (or her maid of honour) can get the addresses of the guests from the shower-thrower. Did anyone mention it at the shower? Or afterwards? Gawd.

I'm going to toot my own horn a tiny bit and suggest something that was suggested to me when I was bridesmaiding it up at my friend Alyce's shower in May: borrow a laptop (or byo) and type up a running list of the gifts & their givers as the bride is opening the gifts. I know some brides don't open gifts at the shower, but we did at this one, and not only was it super-efficient for Alyce to have that annotated list the next day, it was also fun & important for me to make sure I knew everyone's name, as it proved to be invaluable on the receiving line at the wedding a month later.

-- Anonymous, June 13, 2002

Sophie, is this the Alyce who married the Living END?

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002
Oh, lord -- the DIY thank-you note has been a huge topic of discussion over at 3WA. I just can't imagine why this would ever be okay. Ever ever.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002
WG -- yes! Alyce is the real-world name of the Miss A who I mention so often in Ooh La La.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002
I think Indiebride's more intended as a support site for those who are well, bucking trends. Mainly because you're dealing with the wedding stereotypes, pressure from your more traditional relatives, etc., and it's more of a place to find support for doing things your own way.

As for the wedding therapist, she's not exactly there to help you decide which centerpiece to use and how to whip your bridesmaids into shape. Mainly she helps people who are having personal and/or family issues related to marriage, since it's a big change in your life and requires a lot of adjustments.

According to the interview on the site (http://www.indiebride.com/interviews/nissinen/index.html), the top issues people she sees are dealing with are: 1. Separation from family and friends 2. Grief from old losses 3. Letting go of attachment to singlehoodÑidentity and lifestyle 4. Leap into adulthood 5. Liminality feelings (the in-between state where the woman is no longer single and not quite married characterized by feeling numb, disoriented, blank, disconnected) 6. Experience toward fiancŽ: anger, separateness, loneliness 7. Wedding day issues 8. Fears about marriage and commitment 9. What is a wife?

I dunno, it seems reasonable to me that someone might want to see a therapist for relationship issues, separation issues, grief, and personal adjustment in their regular non-getting-married lives, so why is it so bad that she specializes in these issues when they're caused by a big event?

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002

I agree with Jennifer pretty much. The idea of a "wedding issues therapist" is ridiculous if you imagine Buffy VonWorthington-Cullen weeping into her lace hanky on the couch, lamenting to the shrink that her bridesmaid cousin just won't ackrite and lose 25 pounds before the wedding.

But comic relief aside, I've always joked to my friends that the very best engagement present you could give any couple is a year of counseling. I know our MATH+1 brides-to-be are all strong and capable, but for lots of people the stress of managing the time, plus all the other continued real-life factors of work, family, the relationship itself... well, it just becomes too much.

Of course, if you are like my godparents' daughter, you just take a year off, quitting your job for a year and moving home with your parents, so you can plan the Wedding Extravaganza of the Century. Not even kidding.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002

Of course, if you are like my godparents' daughter, you just take a year off, quitting your job for a year and moving home with your parents, so you can plan the Wedding Extravaganza of the Century. Not even kidding.

Oh, law, that scenario would be my personal 9th circle of hell. Moving back in with my parents? Quitting my job? Living away from home and having even moderately remunerative work are two of the things that keep me on an even keel. A third would be (surprise!) working with a therapist at school on some of the issues Jennifer mentioned above. Therapy doesn't work for everyone, but it's been a tremendously useful tool for me.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002

My wedding is next weekend and I'm going to spend this next week in Columbus in my parents' home. I'm sure I'll love being with my mother for the week as we do wedding-ly things, but I'm equally as sure that I'll be really ready to head to the honeymoon on Sunday morning. A year of living with the folks and planning a wedding? No thanks.

-- Anonymous, June 14, 2002
Of course, if you are like my godparents' daughter, you just take a year off, quitting your job for a year and moving home with your parents, so you can plan the Wedding Extravaganza of the Century. Not even kidding.

P, is this the same godparents' daughter who then called the wedding off? Essentially lost a year of her life to something that didn't go through? That would not be the cousin for me.

-- Anonymous, June 17, 2002

This should be really good. If you have seen any of Apted's "Up" series of documentaries, you know he will do a good job with a difficult topic.

http://www.salon.com/ent/tv/diary/2002/06/15/married/index.html

-- Anonymous, June 17, 2002

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