Any one know of an online resource stating the lens compatibility for leica lenses on Hexar RF bodies? I've heard that some lenses don't focus accurately.

Thanks

nick

-- nick (nickchewwm@yahoo.com.sg), May 07, 2002

Answers

Nick,

I have an Hexar RF.

The subject has been debated a number of times. Mine focuses perfectly all Leica lens I have. Some (it seems early batches) Hexar RF didn't have the same capability but are easily fixed by any capable shop.

Mine focuses a 135mm f/4 Tele-Elmar wide open without problem. From the finder magnification (0.6) which is very near to the M6/M7 0.58 version we can say it is not safe to focus a Noctilux or a 75mm f/1.4 Summilux wide open, though it seems both some Hexar RF and M 0.58 users did it.

Besides to call the Hexar RF a "compact" is a term of abuse.

If you don't need to use a Noctilux or a 75 mm Summilux and don't absolutely need a perfect silence when taking pictures it is IMHO a better buy than an M7.

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), May 07, 2002.

Nick,

i'm also a very happy Hexar user; I've never seen a compatibility problem with my lenses. (own CV 35/1.7 and tested 'lux 50/1.4 , my other lenses are hexanons)

You ask for an online recource:

http://www.nemeng.com/leica/010b.shtml

I'm also on the hexar user list of yahoo, no-one with trouble focussing Leica lenses (except the 75/1.4, see Francois' explanation)

-- Joop (mes@nat.vu.nl), May 07, 2002.

"I suspect that the Hexar RF is now mfd to the same FFR as the Leica (27.95 to the inner rails). because it seems that everyone who has had real register problems has had a low-S/N Hexar. I surmise that they figured out the problem fairly early on." This was a suggestion by Dante in an earlier thread. Does this mean that Hexanon lens can be purchased with 2 different specification - one for early Hexar RF bodies, one for Leica & late Hexar RF bodies. I doubt it.

My tests conducted at 50m, and 1m, and viewed at x40 magnification, show that my Leica lenses 28mm to 135mm) focus as perfectly as the system allows on my M4-P body and my Hexanon 50/2 focuses pefrfectly on my Hexar RF body. I find that Hexanon does not focus properly on my M4-P, and my Leica lenses do not focus on my Hexar body adjusted for Hexanon lens. Howeever, I can adjust my Hexar body, so that my Leica lenses will focus quite well with it. In this case the Hexanon is out of course. I hope this helps. As it has already been mentioned, I would also prefer Hexar over an M7. The main negative about the Hexar is battery usage if you are doing serious shooting as the batteries are not cheap.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), May 07, 2002.

Sorry for my spelling mistakes above.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), May 07, 2002.

Sait,

I suppose they corrected the problem accodingly with the lenses, my only M-Hexanon lens, a 90mm f/2.8 focus Ok too ...

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), May 07, 2002.

I wish this was sorted out once and for all - it's not difficult to measure the flange to rail distance and check ( BTW - it's 27.75mm to the inner rails) If there are indeed differences such as those measured by Erwin Putts a while ago then we are wasting our time investing in precision instruments if the errors he measured cannot be identified as having a real effect on the image quality. However this is only if there are differences in the way the lenses ( leica/hexanon) are calibrated - if it's only the flange/ film rails that are different all you will experience is a misalignment at infinity - i.e less than the leica standard will cause the RF to go over. The rest of the RF range will be accurate - never calibrate or evaluate an RF focusing system by the infinity test alone.

-- Johann Fuller (johannfuller@hotmail.com), May 07, 2002.

François, that would mean there would be 2 sets each of 28.35,50 and 90 Hexanons out there. Tricky one.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), May 07, 2002.

Johann, my experiences are based on what I get on film and I agree with you that correct lining up and focus at infinity does not automatically mean correct focus at near distances and vice versa.

-- sait (akkirman@clear.net.nz), May 07, 2002.

Sait,

I think they had just to modify somewhat the groove or anything else actuating the cam in the body... If they have done something to the manufacturing tolerances for the body, it is even easier to have the according modification to the cam actuator on the lens...

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), May 07, 2002.

Nick:

I know of LOTS of online resources stating the compatability of Konica and Leica bodies/lenses - the problem is none of them agree, any more than this forum!

My experience was that Konica lenses on a Leica did just fine, which would tend to indicate that the mechanical compatability is within tolerance, at least for the focal lengths/apertures available.

The Hexar RANGEFINDER I found to be very sloppy - the image in the RF patch shifts around quite noticeably if your eye is even slightly off center. There was no way to tell if the images were aligned a) because I had the focus right; or b) because my eye was a little to the left or right of dead center. I had whole rolls shot with a 90 at f/2.8 that were just - off.

I wear glasses, so my eye sits an extra few mms back from the eyepiece, and this may contribute to the problem. The image was more stable with my glasses off and my eye right up against the eyepiece (but then it was so fuzzy I still couldn't tell if the images aligned!)

I could never get reliable focus with any 90 on the RF, and a 50 f/1.4 was 'challenged' at closer distances - I'd line up someone's eyes andthe ears would be sharp. 35s and shorter had very few problems even at f/2.

ALL my Leica lenses were in focus on the RF if I set them to infinity and shot distant subjects - again indicating that the physical connection was OK.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), May 07, 2002.

Andy,

I'm very surprised, I'm heavily myopic (minus 6.5 dioptries for the right eye with which I focus). So I wear glasses everytime and never experienced any difficulty with the rangefnder patch.

Could you tell us what problem have your eayes? Are you using bifocals for example or have astigmatism ?

As for the 90mm, My Hexanon doesn't seem to have any problem focusing well wide open (f/2.8) and I can focus very accurately at all distances my 135mm f/4 Tele-Elmar...

The fact you are experiencing few difficulties with shorter focal lenses even wide open seems to indicate your rangefinder is slightly off and the DOF is taking care of the problem with short focal lengths. Or the particular correction of your glasses forbids you a perfect control of the focusing which is with all rangefinder more difficult as the focal length increase.

I cannot but tell you it will be very important to have your body and lenses combination tested by someone else to see if the problem relies really within your camera.

Friendly from another poor glass wearer

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), May 08, 2002.

Just got a message that Dante Stella has updated his website with a very nice item about the hexarRF also discussing the "compatibilty issue"

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html

Looks like a well written article; seems he really thought about the backfoccussing issue, and has some useful explanation for several things which some people seen as incompatibility problems.

Cheers,

-- Joop (mes@nat.vu.nl), May 08, 2002.

Just got a message that Dante Stella has updated his website with a very nice item about the hexarRF also discussing the "compatibilty issue"

http://www.dantestella.com/technical/hexarrf.html

Looks like a well written article; seems he really thought about the backfoccussing issue, and has some useful explanation for several things which some people see as incompatibility problems.

Cheers,

-- Joop (mes@nat.vu.nl), May 08, 2002.

I hate to be picky but Dante states that flange to film distance is 27.95mm on both cameras - nope this is the flange to outer rail distance. Again he states the difficulty of measuring this distance accuratley - it's not difficult and why more people have not done this is beyond me! Sorry to go on but it would solve 75% of this confusing debate if we had proper measurements of this from a selection of bodies.

-- Johann Fuller (johannfuller@hotmail.com), May 08, 2002.

François - I don't wear bifocals but do have a touch of astigmatism, but that isn't my point.

My point is that with the Hexar, when wearing glasses, when I move my eye from right to left behind the finder, the yellowish rangefinder image moves substantially from side to side (as much as 1/6 of the width of the patch).

- without my touching the lens's focusing ring.

In other words, the two rangefinder images MAY be aligned because the lens is correctly focused - or they MAY only be aligned because of where my eye happens to be, with the lens INcorrectly focused. The latter case occurs most often.

Wearing glasses may have made this problem worse - not from optical effects, but because they increase the physical separation between my eye and the eyepiece, which amplifies the apparent sloppiness of the RF's RF due to eye movement.

Here's an example:

I focus the lens at infinity, using the focus scale. I look through the viewfinder and the images of a very distant object are aligned.

I shift my gaze over to the left-hand meter scale and back to the rangefinder patch - and now the images are NOT aligned, simply becasue of that small shifting of my eye.

I move my eye a little to the right and the RF is aligned again. I move it left or right further and it is misaligned again.

For a rangefinder to work properly there has to be an UNAMBIGUOUS relationship between the co-incidence of the RF images and the correct focus of the lens.

In the Hexar RF this relationship is VERY ambiguous and sloppy, and therefore, IMHE, not reliable at a professional level with lenses longer than 35mm.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), May 08, 2002.

Dear Andy,

It seems there is something special for you in your glasses anyway.

I've voluntarily progressively off centered my eye from the viewfinder of the Hexar and the only pheanomenons I can see are the following ones:

1 - Can't see properly all the field of the finder with very few off- centering(I mean the finder as a whole, not the lens frame)

2 - Up to half of the rangefinder patch simply progressively disappears

I have used the Hexar RF with lenses from 35 mm to 135mm without experiencing any kind of out of focus problem be it at infinity or to the nearest focusing point...

I'm really puzzled by your problem...

May be my powerful glasses are an asset here and brings a field limitation before the problem appears... I don't know.

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), May 09, 2002.

François: Seems to be kind of like the 'rangefinder flare' problem - happens for some people and not for others. "A chacun a son goût!"

AND, BTW, I've noticed the same thing with .58x/.85x M6s - but much less pronounced. Maybe something to do with the modified optics need for the magnified or wide viewfinders(??).

I've tried to get the M4-P and M4-2 to do this and they will - very reluctantly - but my eye has to be right to the edge of the eyepiece.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), May 09, 2002.