I was all set to order a Voigtlander R2 body tomorrow until I checked out the M2s on Ebay and found a user for $675. I will probably be gone before you give your opinion, but what would you do? Thanks, John

-- John H Osterholm (barjo4@attbi.com), May 05, 2002

Answers

I'd go for the M2. The R2 looks like a nice camera, but if you end up liking the Leica M system, chances are you'll have the itch to upgrade to a real Leica body in the not too distant future (assuming this is your first foray into Leica M equipment). The M2 will hold its value much better, and you'll probably develop a better bond with it than the Voigtlander. If you miss the auction, there are a quite a few other used dealers with user M2's around the high-$600 to $700 range. Last time I checked, keh.com had a few around that price.

-- Badris (badris@mac.com), May 06, 2002.

There are plenty of used M bodies out there for that price but plan on adding another $100 or so for the CLA. But the R2 will be a new metered body and if its finder is anything like the Bessa R it will be nice and bright. It is a tough choice and thank goodness there is finally a choice!

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), May 06, 2002.

Me personally? I'd have to go for the V'lander - I wind lots of film and can't put up with the M2s removable-spool loading and knob rewind. But I've never seen or touched an R2 - factor that in.

Plus I'd like to have the 'new' warranty for any RF - too much chance of rangefinder misalignment or other problems.

The M2 price is good but not uncommon - KEH has three between $650 and $750 right now. I spent $689 (in 1980 dollars) for a 'user' M2 - and that was a good price even then, new bodies were running $1200-$1300, as I recall.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), May 06, 2002.

i would go for the m2. depending on your lens preference, if you watch ebay you can probably find a good user m3 for the same price. thats how i started. i would love to get a new m6, but at this time, it is more money than i want to spend, so i am shooting with my m3 and if i build up my lens collection enough and use it enough, then the m6 would be a worth while purchase.

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), May 06, 2002.

Another vote for the M2. Just a nice camera, nothing to complain about. Sure, the R2 has a build-in meter, but after using incident meters for a while I am shooting mostly meterless now - which works very good with chromes as well. And a clean M2 finder is in the same class as a R2 - finder.

But I guess you would find a cheaper M2 than $675 - or buy it from a broker like KEH instead. Since I just got screwed over eBay I can strongly recommend only to buy from people who offer a money-back guarantee or from a recommended eBayer (look out for camera equipment references); I bought an Elmarit with 'light cleaning marks' which turned out to be cleaned with steel wool instead - and no way to get my money back.

-- Kai Blanke (kai.blanke@iname.com), May 06, 2002.

It is not an easy question.
The Voigtlander option is more straigtforward, you pay around 500$ and don't have to worry.
A 40 years old Leica user is a more insecure purchase regardless of whom you buy it from. If I were to buy such an old camera with an unknown history, I would factor in a CLA which in the US seems to be around 200$ + parts+shipping/insurance to and from the repair technician (+the cost of a lightmeter if you don't allready own one).
In other words, you have to weight 1000$ against 500$ for the same level of "peace of mind". If this price difference is of little importance to you, I think you will happier with the M2 -Not from a functional perspective, but rather from an emotional -at least I would.
Good luck.

-- Niels H. S. Nielsen (nhsn@ruc.dk), May 06, 2002.

Get the R2 unless you only shoot one roll of film a month and don't like lightmeters.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 06, 2002.

To sound redundant, get the M2, I got mine for 650, and then did a cla for 300. In the end I got a amazing M2 that is smooth, accurate, and just a joy to use (I shoot more than 1 roll a month :) )The best part is when my 12 year old son decides on possibly either photography as a hobby or profession, It will be a joy for him to use as well. You will never look back. I seen the ebay M2 you spoke of, the seller has a great feedback, not an endorsment of him, just a observation. mike

-- mike (thearea19@aol.com), May 06, 2002.

M2! Regardless of what you find in the used market, I think you're definitely going to spend more for the M2 in the long run. But think of what you get! The R2 'new camera' buzz will wear off and then you'll have a $500 2002 camera when an M2 cost just a little less in 1966! Value? I'd put it on all metal construction, beautiful build quality and a camera that does just what it's designed to do, and will continue to do long after an R2 has bit the dust and there is no support for repairs. But, what do you want to photograph? Maybe the M2 is too slow, too deliberate, and just plain too meterless for ya'. Just my .02...Have fun either way!

-- Carlin (carlinm@abac.com), May 06, 2002.

If you_ever_do daylight fill-flash, you'd be grateful for the R2's 1/125 sync speed. If the R2 has a higher-mag finder, I'd be replacing my 0.85 TTL in a snap - its sync speed and rangefinder flare are real patience-testers.

-- Andrew (mazurka@rocketmail.com), May 06, 2002.

Hello John. All things considered. Before you make a decision....Hold an M2 in your left hand while holding an R2 in your right hand....

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), May 06, 2002.

M2 of course. The fact that you can still use a 40+ year old camera and get better results than most newer cameras says alot. I like CV lenses, but the bodies are still no where near as good as M cameras.

-- chris a williams (LeicaChris@worldnet.att.net), May 06, 2002.

How can you get better results with an M2 than with most newer cameras?

Oh, of course - the rewind knob is all-metal! Silly me.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), May 06, 2002.

Rob, don't forget that in addition to the "Leitz Wezlar" engravings, most M2's also have a self-timer, an M sync post_plus_a manual frame counter which the R2 lacks. ;-)

-- Andrew (mazurka@rocketmail.com), May 06, 2002.

Here are the issues as I see them:

M2...

PRO: 1. Will resell easily and for at least what you paid 2. Automatic frameline selection when lens is mounted 3. Sufficient rangefinder baselength for fast & longer lenses (though no frameline for 135) 4. Will accept most M devices (Visoflex, etc.)

CON: 1. No meter 2. Slow loading (unless QL kit installed, at extra cost)and rewinding. 3. Will probably need $150-300 service unless recently performed by competent repairman. 4. Possibility for rangefinder prism to decement if knocked hard

R2...

PRO: 1. TTL meter 2. higher flash sync 3. warranty 4. conventional loading/unloading

CON: 1. resale value unknown 2. short-base rangefinder 3. framelines must be manually selected when changing lenses 4. unable to accept full range of M accessories (Visoflex, etc.)

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), May 06, 2002.

I'm reminded every time I send in my M4-2 or M2 for some little thing that I'm paying for half of a new Bessa. If the R-2 had been available when I shelled out for the Leicas I'm not so sure I wouldn't have two of them, instead.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), May 06, 2002.

I am truly impressed at all of your responses. I already own an M4- 2, that has been overhauled and works fine, and I have owned several other Leicas in my past, going back to 1969, when as a NYC resident I owned a new M4 and a new M2R. Since then I've owned an SL, an R4S and a couple M4-2s. Allwere gone for various reasons - no money, divorce, etc. I think I will opt for the Bessa R2. I considered what you wrote about good user Leicas and then the CLA. Still, my black MR4 would look silly on the M2. The best alternative would be to hold out for a good used M6. With the money I have to play with - $950- I can get the R2 and a 50mm lens. Perhaps a Nokton or a used Summicron. Thank you again, John

-- John H Osterholm (barjo4@attbi.com), May 06, 2002.

I think for a shooter, the R2 with a Leica Summicron will be hard to beat for the money.

-- Andrew Schank (aschank@flash.net), May 06, 2002.

What about one of those refurbished Konica RF kits from Cameraland? They are running for about $799 US dollars.

-- (quebecnikon@aol.com), May 06, 2002.

gandy calls the r2 an entry level m camera, of which i think he is correct. for what it does i think it would be perfect to see if a rf is for you when one cannot rent or borrow one. if one then had to sell it, even if after a 50% hit (doubtful) on resale, that is only $250, might make money on the leitz_not_leica lens though (leica lenses=newer=more$$$=bigger hit). anyone see many used voigt lenses/bodies on ebay? supply/demand.

leica should've put money from the o-series toward a less expensive m.

if i didn't have my m6/4/3/2 i would look into one.

-- steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), May 06, 2002.

I would go R2. Has everything a first M buyer needs. And if you like using rangefinders you can get a M6 or M7 later and keep the Voigtlander r2 as a second body. The olive R2 is very nice! Choice is good!

-- Joel Matherson (joel_2000@hotmail.com), May 06, 2002.