Can anyone point me toward a worthwhile Web-based discussion group about Leica (M and R) photography? I'm not looking for anything that has to do with Voigtlander/Cosina, the Contax G2 or Konica Hexar RF. I'm looking for a forum that (mostly) gives informative reports about Leica gear and techniques, and which is not a chat line dominated by a few active members who seem to be on-line with their computers more often than they are out in the field with their cameras. Regards.

-- Steve Brant;ley (sbrantley@nccommerce.com), April 24, 2002

Answers

Steve:

You found it!

Ben

-- Ben hughes (ben@hughesbros.com), April 24, 2002.

Keep looking, Steve. This used to be it, but it ain't no mo'.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), April 24, 2002.

If you put your hands over your eyes and ears simulataneously, I am sure a forum can be whatever you want. However, I don't know any photographers who willingly shut the world out.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), April 24, 2002.

If this forum ever moves to photo.net (which there has been a lot of talk of, but no action), it will be possible to ban users with specific ip addresses... this would improve things considerably.

If there is enough interest in a forum that can be managed well, I could easily make one, but i haven't heard of enough need for one yet.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

by "managed well" i don't mean Tony isn't doing a good job, just that Tony could have the tools needed to manage this type of forum better... but i think a move to photo.net would be a better solution.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

Steve, dude, if you don't like it, man, like bail out! Go find another place. Go MAKE a place to have a discussion! Don't complain here. I have enough problems as it is with mosquito. Ask yourself this. Do forum participants and I (the moderator) actually need more off topic postings to wade through? Come on.

By the way, the little guy's using my name now. Those posts are gone. If you see a post by me and it sticks around for more than a few hours, it's probably by me.

To reply to the poster above, yes, when we are part of photo.net, we can ban users by IP address. If you can't wait, then bail! But don't post here with your complaints. It's that simple.

Several people wrote to me explaining our most recent pony-tail games... The posts are gone. Thank you to those who wrote. It was the right thing to do. The wrong thing to do is to post here. Little mosquito just loves to see your responses! When people complain about him here, then he/she wins. It's THAT SIMPLE. Why don't people understand this??

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 24, 2002.

Actually, the more I read the initial post of this thread, the more pissed off I am at you. How dare you get on here and post crap like this? This forum is what YOU make it as well as what *I* delete. What kind of forum have you helped mosquito make today?

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 24, 2002.

Steve, I never heard so much shit in all my life. If you had ever spent so much time as even one hour looking at what's up here in the whole internet as to re Leica, you'd have already realized that this is the Leica Forum. All of the other Leica forums -- yes, even including Leica's own forum -- are unfortunately scummed up with too many non-Leica-users and/or with shit-heads who always try to piss off somebody they don't like.

But this (Greenspun) forum is inhabited by many real knowledgeable, experienced friends who over and over again always help you out where they can. And they didn't start yesterday.

How about just reading for a week or two, and everything in all of the archives here, too, before looking for something you won't find anywhere else.

As re Moderators, be thankful that (a) this forum is moderated at all, and that (b) Tony has already done so much to create the place this forum has already achieved.

So.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), April 24, 2002.

Tony - Most of us who value this site use it for exactly the purpose intended. We accordingly enjoy it and get valuable information FOC. Wherever things are free there will always be those who abuse the supply and this site is no different. Captious and silly users will inevitably make contact but we need as you suggested just to turn a blind eye. Bullies and clowns always lose interest if they fail to incite a response.

-- Tony Brookes (gdz00@btinternet.com), April 24, 2002.

My, my, my, Steve! Relax, man. No wonder there is violence and war all over the planet if such an innocent pastime as chatting about Leica photography generates such bitter verbal abuse. By the way, Steve, you must have spent a lot more time browsing through this site than in the field with a camera yourself to pretend that it is mostly about Contax, Hexar and Cosina. And Tony, I'm a hunderd per cent with you. Keep on the good job. Thank you.

Olivier

-- Olivier Reichenbach (olreiche@videotron.ca), April 24, 2002.

Well some of you are really not nice at all.Tony is doing a splendid job.i'm sorry for those purists who only want Leica things.Its a real world,and some of us,who are both poor and cheap need to look at Cosina and related cameras and lenses.i love my Leicas,but reality check,-- they cannot do some things my Canon Rebel does in nano seconds! The people on the site ARE very helpful!I needed imfo on a certain lens,a Leica lens and was warned it might not fit all M-bodies. Well it was true!Money saved!Still no 90mm lens. This for me the best site...join us!

-- jason gold (leeu72@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

Why not try The Leica users M group( A yahoo group)

-- Ned Learned (ned@kajabbi.com), April 24, 2002.

i think steve was frustrated like all the rest of us and started a new thread in order to not respond to the twit and give her satisfaction.

whereas the comments about third party equip comments i don't really know where they are coming from, as thay are all under consideration being either compatable or competitors. i for one welcome some direct experiences not mere speculation.

as for the last comment re being on line...well, unwarrated.

as once was posted: if you don't like what is posted, post some constructive ones yourself.

it must be a royal pain for tony to sift through each and every post every day at all hours to keep the forum constructive. i think we should have a hero icon like photo.net and a feedback rating like ebay here.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

I lashed out a bit. For that, I apologize. It does get frustrating every once in awhile, but it's a busy day at work, too, and that makes it worse. Anyway.....I appreciate everyone's frustrations and concerns and encouragement. And after Steve's (Leitz_not_Leica) post above, I'm not angry at you, Mr. Steve Brantley, any more. I was a jerk. Sorry about that.

Time for a martini.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 24, 2002.

tony, my preference is for scotch, enjoy.

as far as photo.net, which i am also a member, one needs to register to post, but not to respond. am i correct on this?

can someone on this forum, knowledgeable (except for grammer and spelling as i) concoct a packege to incorporate into this or a new site where it can be filtered someway?

fwiw, i don't agree with banning ip/specific people, as anyone even knowing leica, much less ponying up for one, is not mainstream incl. me. we must have a record of past and present behavior w/o censoring a la china, et al. let the record of embarassment be there for all to see and disregard. deleting does not accomplish this, as it is too easy to use another pseudonism.

i agree, ignore the mosquitos.

-- Steve (leitz_not_leica@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

This forum is the best Leica froum on the net and tony does a great job, especially considering the circumstances and his restraints. As long as there are competing products (alternatives) to Leica, there will always be talk about them. I.e. Voigtlander, hexar, etc.

The real Leica buffs you are referring to Steve are at home waxing their M6 ready to go crazy over it like a blow up doll! Most of the people on this site are standard everyday people who actually used Leica (related) products....not leica buffs! Some are even excelent professional and amatuer photographers.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

Besides, how can we all just talk about leica......as it is, we're always running out of Leica topics to talk about, so they are constantly repeated....thank god we have some great photograhers on this site that can share their images, experiences and techniques.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), April 24, 2002.

Hey Tony Please keep up the great work. It is appreciated. And if there is a pain in the aft out there who cares. A couple of posts from him/her and we will all know what his/her mental capabilities are and we'll all get a good laugh. This is the best forum for answers and discussions that I have found yet.

-- Andy Wagner (awagner@midwest-express.com), April 24, 2002.

Steve, by this point you've heard all the best answers. You've got to chill; for what you're searching, this IS the best place as far as I can tell, and the mere fact of you writing a message like this in the context of this forum delegates your post to flame-bait level. I've posted very little, being a Leica newbie, but I'm a thrilled, excited newbie, and I have gleaned a lot of info from these posts. Folks here have helped me make my transition from an SLR to a Leica RF, and it has been great fun just reading through the posts and seeing the photography. And, slowly, feeling that there is a real community here.

It's true we've had a mosquito troll. Moderation should probably be a bit more aggressive, but trolls are an internet fact of life. Their existence/definition is well established, and the way to deal with them is established as well. Ignore and move on. And beg the moderators to clean the place up. That's about it.

Good luck in your pursuit of the perfect discussion group, -Armen

-- Armen Yampolsky (a@axiomsl.com), April 24, 2002.

Hang in here buddy. I'm new too and have learned much , any free site will have problems.. ps also got a GREAT deal on equipment offers..

-- gary brown (drdad1111@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

To the guy who started this thread, check out the LUC on www.topica.com. Undiluted Leica talk. 20 messages to date this month. They need your active and informative participation there!

http://www.topica.com/lists/LUC/prefs/info.html

-- Fred (redsky3@yahoo.com), April 24, 2002.

Tony, Thank you for maintaining this great site. I can't thank you enough. There are a lot of good people here with years of photographic experience and I would like to take this opportunity to thank them as well. Even some assholes from time to time create interesting fodder. I for one learned a lot about Leicas and photography in general though I still haven't figured out whether to go chrome or black :)

-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), April 25, 2002.

I fully understand Steve's request, and also mostly understand the responses. Some day, sociology students will produce doctorates analysing the internal communication dynamics of Internet based community groups. Intuitively, I recognise patterns and cycles that seem to be common to all the groups I have visited, and even recognise communication patterns in my own behaviour within those groups.

My suggestion to Steve is to hang in here, and make the most of this group's Lusenet interface. It is quite unique to benefit from a format that allows you to easily select the threads you want to see (judging by title or initial poster) and not be submitted to the sometimes horrific vision of dozens of off-topic posts simultaneously saturating your own inbox or the group's web based interface. Take a look at the Topica LEG page or to the LUG archives, and you'll see how unmanageable things can get elsewhere. With all its quircks, this forum still remains the most factual and the easiest to consult...

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.

Hi tony

Thank you for the great forum. I remember when you were the only participant of this forum :) How it has grown since then.

I believe it is possible to turn this public forum into a private one. You may wish to consider that option.

-- Erik Supcali... (supercalifragilisticpolymathicgenius@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.

Tony you have done a great work with this site, and Iīm also in the idea of making this more secure, just donīt know how.

Thankīs for your precious time my friend.

PD it has been a shame to miss some of participants because of harsh maners here, but what to do?

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), April 25, 2002.

Folks:

Two points:

1. I agree that Tony has done a great job. Best that I have seen.

2. If we are talking about Phil, I find him quite clever and amusing. From my experience, trouble is inserting Java into the site or using a robot to spam, not providing a parody. ;<)))

Just my opinion.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), April 25, 2002.

Example:

Not to give anyone ideas, but do you see that button at the bottom, contribute an answer [ah, the early days of hypertext]. You can change that so each new answer goes, randomly, to another thread. I have seen it done. Kewl. That is a problem. Tony's board hasn't had problems. Enjoy Phil, he is a free spirit or imitates one.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), April 25, 2002.

Tony's board hasn't had problems. Enjoy Phil, he is a free spirit or imitates one.

I question whether you would have such a charitable view if you were one of the many people who have been subject to a series of his abusive posts or who have had fraudulent posts made in their name, or if you were the moderator who had to delete half a dozen threads and dozens of vulgar and harrassing posts on a single day.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 25, 2002.

Howdy Mike:

Do you remember Y2K. I was one of the early posters on the Yourdan board here [circa 1997]. Part of my approach was to quietly convince the lunatic fringe that the world wouldn't end. After all, it is field that is important to me. Cleaning-up taught me all of the "bad" techniques I will ever need to know.

I have had things posted under my name on at least 30 boards [that I know of], I have had my email address spammed [ever wake up to 250 duplicate e-mails]; do you want me to continue. I thought not. You have never dealt with the real lunatic fringe.

I don't think that you know what trouble really means and protest too much. By-the-by, love those photo's.

Art

-- Art (AKarr90975@aol.com), April 25, 2002.