First half yesterday. The ball was passed back to the goalkeeper by a defender using his knee. Goalkeeper caught backpass. SJH Level 7 went crackers shouting for a free kick (amongst other things) Ref ignored our pleadings as did their keeper, who then did a 'calm down, calm down' thing to the crowd. Your question is, was the crowd (God bless them) or the ref correct? I am asking because I don't see how it can't be. Unless you know different.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

Answers

Referee was spot on, Costa used his knee to knock it back to the goalie.

The crowd around me went mental but I had to tell a few that they were wrong :)

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

The law actually says that it is an offences if the keeper "touches the ball with his hands after it has been deliberately kicked to him by a team-mate"

So you can head it, or knee it without it being an offence. However, if you "contrive" a back pass, ie by doing a couple of keepie uppies then kneeing it to the keeper, or lying down and heading the ball along the ground, then that IS an offence.

I've said before on here that I despair sometimes of the total ignorance of the laws displayed by the average fan. In most cases it is the offside law - which I have claimed before now should find a place in the Key Stage 3 National Curriculum - but refs get huge amounts of stick for doing the RIGHT thing on occasions. Let's stick to the moral high ground and just yell at the bastards when they get it wrong!!

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

The ball wasn't controlled by him before, he just hit it with his knee straight off so it must have been the right decision.

There was also another instance when Kiely won a free kick in his 6 yard box. The ball was moved to the other side of the 6 yard box for the free kick and loads of people jumped up shouting at the ref for not telling him to move it back. A basic rule IMHO (ie a free kick won in the 6 yard box can be taken anywhere in the 6 yard box) that too many don't know.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

I remember a backpass by a Wimbledon player (not against us) when it was bouncing and he hit it with his thigh. The ref gave an indirect free kick for a backpass and the Wimbledon players went mad. Of course the opposition scored from the free kick just to add insult to injury.

An idea for the FLC - the club provide a leaflet with the rules of the game on for every season ticket holder.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

I thought a backpass was where the player, without using his head deliberately gives the ball to the keeper, and the keeper picks it up.

I understood that the ball could be caught by the keeper if the defender doesn't mean to give it to him.

I.E he hoofs it up in the air and the keeper comes outto collect. Or it takes a deflection.

But yesterday if that defender didn't mean to give the ball to the keeper then he was trying to score an own goal!

So I was certain it was a back pass.

But if you are correct and the knee is considered the same as the head, then it was the right decision. But I must admit I have never heard of the knee being legal. Wouldn't we see it more if it was?

Defeders are always heading the ball back to keeper and often diving low to do so. SO why aren't they kneeing it instead?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

Players use their heads out of habit more than anything, as there is no debating whether the foot was used or not. It's also easier to control with your head than your knee, which can be a bit nobbly.

Anything apart from the foot (and obviously the arms) is perfectly legal.

There is no rule about whether he meant to give it to him or not concerning the knees - if he meant it or not the knee is a legale way of knocking it back to the keeper. Intention only comes into it when the feet are used.

Personally, I think the rule should be changed to heads only when intentional, as someone who uses their shin rather than their foot is pretty borderline - where does the foot start and the leg end?

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

The only thing with which you cannot DELIBERATELY pass back to the keeper with is your foot. Owt else - head, chest, knee, thigh, backside - is legal as long as it is not "contrived" (see above)!!

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

Maybe splitting hairs a bit, but what's the difference between heading the ball back to the keeper from a height of say six feet, and heading it back from a height of zero feet ?

Assuming any player would be daft enough to try this.

Other than Vic Keeble, that is. :-{E}

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

About 6ft, I'd say. Well maybe 5'11" if you allow room for, say, O'Brien's nose to clear the ground. ;-)

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

The difference Pit Bill, is that any "trick" used to get round this law is counted as an infringement, so if a player were to kneel down and attempt to head the ball already on the ground back to his keeper, the ref would award a free kick. Interestingly, the law states that even if the ball failed to reach the keeper by use of such a trick, an infringement will still have been committed.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

What if he dived full length and slid along the deck to head the ball ?

Nowt wrong with that I'd say. Vic Keeble could have done it. :-{E}

Mind, the ground staff would have their work cut out getting rid of the furrow, cos Vic Keeble's sneck was bigger than Andy O'Brien's. On second thoughts, I suppose it could be classed as using the clarts as a stage prop, and therefore technically, trickery.

And, with the kind of officials we've been seeing at SJP lately, there'd be no way we'd be given the benefit of any doubt.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

What if it comes off the players shin just above the shoe? Is that foot or knee? It all sounds highly dodgey. Knee, foot, shin... it's all backpass to me.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002

And you'd know all about backpasses right Nick ? Even your attempts on goal usually end up looking more like backpasses ...

;O))

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2002

Oh, and for what it's worth, I was one of those fans screaming at the ref to blow up for what I'd assumed was a deliberate backpass.

The rules of the game are so complex now and varied so frequently, is it any wonder that fans, managers and presumably players have digs at refs who - as has been pointed out - can get abuse even for making correct decisions.

I mean, apart from on better-than-average fan boards like this one, how on earth can anyone expect fans to stay abreast of rule changes in the game ???

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2002

Jonno, are you sure about that last part? I was aware that the keeper wasn`t allowed to pick up a manufactured headed/kneed backpass, but if the pass doesn`t reach him and he therefore doesn`t handle the ball then how can it be an offence?

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2002

see this url :-

http://a1801.g.akamai.net/f/1801/2004/3d/www.fifa.com/fifa/pub/lotg/La ws01en1-39.pdf

The laws are here and rule 12 is the one at stake.

-- Anonymous, April 22, 2002