Here's something to I saw, KKK and the old south

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This a rural community I live in.While driveing down a road that I had never been on, looking for a garage sale. On a lg. oak tree was this sign, a big sign, [ this is KKK country] We continued down the road wondering if all these people were clan people. Also right down the road from me there is a old cemetary, the black part is fence off from the white with no gate to each other. I taught oil painting at the senior center, and a lovely black women cooked the meals for the poor people who came for lunch, at one dollar a person. I taught there for 8 years, and never saw one black family, or black person come for lunch, and yet it for everyone. There is a large black community around here. We are not far from where that black man was dragged to death in the back of the pickup, by those three young white men. I don't understand why this is still continueing.

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), April 20, 2002

Answers

only in Texas ! ! ! ! ! ! !

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), April 20, 2002.

And Alabama, and Georgia, and other states. What I don't understand is why, Irene, you chose to bring this up here and stir the hornet's nest? Those people thrive on advertising, which you have given them.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), April 20, 2002.

And Kansas. And every other state. Unfortunately bigotry and racism runs rampant. It's so disheartening, isn't it, Irene?

I moved from Oklahoma City to New Orleans in the late 1970's, and was shocked to see signs on some of the storefronts that said "Whites Only" and to see a KKK march - full sheets and the whole bit - in front of a Holiday Inn there. It really frightened me! That was 25 years ago, and it still gives me the willies when I think about it. I know that racism goes on all accross our country, but when you're confronted with it - when it's suddenly right in your face - it's really disturbing.

-- Cheryl in KS (klingonbunny@planetkc.com), April 20, 2002.


Needn't be a hornets' nest at all with intelligent discussion, so I beg to differ with you Rose..making believe things aren't there never helped them go away..acknowledging their existence, discussing them in rational tones brings their ideas to the forefront where young folks can see them for what they are, IMHO. Racism, although more popularly associated with the Southern states is quite alive and well in the Northeast I found to my dismay. When we lived in Pa, we often saw KKK rallies and received unwanted literature in our driveway..this was from 1993 through 2000.One of the largest and most active KKK units is in PA..go figure. Doesn't it make you sad Irene? They feed on half truths which are very powerful fodder, especially for young inexperienced young people. We have been here in Alabama for two years this June and have not seen a single overt sign of this organization..not that it is not here, but i find it surprising that it keeps a lower profile where it originated!

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), April 20, 2002.

I have no love for the klan, nor the ayrians, and I have a distinct hatred for ingnorance. can support any action that takes ones liberty away to raise up anothers.

But let us examine another aspect of the situation. There are some communities that are distinctly white. I live in a county that has a 0 % minority population. There would be no reason on earth to come here. Why oh why would any minority wish to come here ? I truly believe that for a minority to come here could and should be considered an overt act of war. They could only mean to stir up trouble. Shouldn't there also, in this vast country, be set aside reservations, for peoples of differing colors, to live among only those they wish to live among ? To live by their own principles as long as they are not the offending party ?

I am not a racist but to allow the appalachian people to be invaded just for the sake of intergration would also be a criminal act !

I have dwelled on this thought for 15 years and you must allow small areas for those who think differently than you !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 20, 2002.



Joel, why is it that you have chosen to live in your community? There must be something attractive enough about it that compelled you to move there, so why do you think that other people, whether they are minorities or not would not also find it attractive and want to move there? You say that for a minority to move there would be an ACT of WAR? That is just about the most bigoted, racist, and ignorant statement I have heard uttered in a long time and it contradicts your statement that you are not a racist as well as your statement that you hate ignorance.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), April 20, 2002.

I go along with everything Elizabeth said. Joel, I'm stunned that someone who speaks so fervently of Freedom could think that way. Now I know that was just a bunch of talk. To measure people by the color of their skin is about as misguided as you can get. I thought you'd been around more than that.

By the way, I've spent a good part of my life living in appalachia. From what I've seen in some areas, "minorities" moving in would probably raise the standards and clean the place up a bit.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.


Joel, I'm gonna move just as close to you as possible. I have to admit that never considered it before. I just always live my life close to the land. In harmony. But I've gotta tell you. You've succeeded (*in making me mad*) for the first time since I buried 37 friends of mine in 4 years who were blindsided by hiv.

-- Dennis Enyart (westwoodcaprine@yahoo.com), April 21, 2002.

Dennis, that's a whole other issue you're bringing up there. Nothing personal but I find it hard to believe that every one of those people you mentioned were 'blindsided' when people have been educated for almost two decades on how to simply protect themselves against hiv. You or I nor nobody else knows who introduced it to this country either. Regardless, that really has nothing to do with what's being discussed here. Maybe those comments would be better said in a thread relating to those issues, not one that's discussing racism.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

Well, well, isn't this exactly the hornet's nest I mentioned?

Intelligent discussion would be welcome. I don't like racism, but I respect the right of free people in a free country to have whatever thoughts they want. They can wear white pointy hats, cross dress, whatever, as long as they do so in such a way that is not harmful to others.

Why isn't it within the perogative of someone to live in a community of people who look the same? Answer that one in a calm, intelligent manner, please. Funny how retirement communities outlaw families with children, if you think about it. If they were of a different race, you would roar with outrage.

Joel and Lesley brought up good ideas, I think. Some of the other answers enforce the group dynamics concept that in any group, there are people who try to damage the process.

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.



Peope should be judged by the content of their character!!! Not the color of their skin,their country of origin, how they dress, keep their property, how much money they have, their weight and many other issues.

The BIG question is how do we solve these problems. Start with the children!!! Every opportunity you ever have, please try to discuss with a child some of these issues. Maybe they will remmebr what you say...

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), April 21, 2002.


wow, I didn"t mean to stir up a hornet's nest. I am from Calif. and never seen this sort of thing. I don"t care if your green, yellow, white or black. Your loved by your heavenly father no matter what color. And Rose I owe you a apoligy, I just like to discuss things that are happening now and around us. I find that all things have some merit for discussion. I think those fences on the cemetary's should be torn down. Even when there dead they are still discrimated against.

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), April 21, 2002.

No need for apology, Irene. HUGGS

-- Rose (open_rose@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

I know there are those that will disagree, but I do think a lot has changed. We tend to have a very narrow view and don't step back and look at the whole picture sometimes.

Yes, a hornets nest will most probably be stired up; however, not so many years ago this topic would cause all out war! If you look at the responses, only a couple will be negative. For the most part, people are no longer for racism but strongly against it.

We have a long, long way to go and suspect we will never reach a point where we no longer hold prejudices. It exists not only in color and race, but exists in other ways that tend to be "acceptable" -- age discrimination, weight discrimination, etc. And God help you if you choose to be a stay at home Mom, or a house husband, or even a homesteader. Prejudice = pre-judgment.

-- Karen (mountains_mama2@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.


I see your points and I admit I opened it up for discussion. First I moved here because it was my grandfather's home. I am not a racist-- and if any of you have read my posts in the past than you know that I often quote Malcolm X and Martin Luther King.

You cannot come to Craig County, Virginia. We are sold out ! There is no land left ! We have a land Baron and his name is Maddox and he buys everything that goes up for sale. There is no sense in trying to out bid him at a auctin for it is written in stone that he bought it before the auction started.

What I am saying is for every right there must be a left. For every inclusion there must be an exclusion. In a true and fair society you must offer both !!!! This is called by many names like "Ying and Yang" and without it there can be no existince. Even if it goes against everything you believe you must endure it. For those of you that wish to challenge it than may I suggest you rent an apartment in Capprenie Green. That is an all black Chicago Housing unit. Notice--no whites or other minorities allowed ! They'll rent you one for that is the law but you will not live to see another sunrise and you can take that to the bank !

You can jump to conclusions if you wish--you will not offend me. However, for you to force intergration in a land that is not intergreted than you are the offending party and that is an overt act of war. Than it is you who are forcing your beliefs down someone else's throats. That makes you the Tyrant !

How does it feel to belief in something so wrong that you believe that you are right ? You remind me of what the government must have sounded like when they debated the Native American issue--Which one of you believes we acted in correctly. We must all have these moments of self inventory. Like I said --I struggled with the answer for 15 years and that answer is leave these people to their own devices !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 21, 2002.



There is a huge difference between forced integration and folks of a different color moving into a neighborhood because they like it. I forget the year, but I was in college in Boston, so it must have been 1960 something..anyway, I was crossing the street on the way to a class and stopped for traffic..here came a school bus preceeded by at least 40 Boston police on motorcycles...there were a bunch of Black kids with their little faces plastered against the windows looking out...these kids were absolutely petrified...I recall feeling so sad that these kids were off to school in such a manner, simply to sit next to some white kid, supposedly so they could "learn" better..as if they couldn't "learn" on their own...I recall thinking, if I were a Black Mom, I would be insulted by the entire notion! On the other hand...years and years later, one of my own kiddos came home in tears one day from school..it seems that the teacher had given the kids an assignment to "celebrate their heritage" and they were to bring to school an "ethnic" food, as well as a dance of "ethnic' origin to share with their classmates. His best friend, a Black child, had been given an A for his presentation...my son had been given a "D" for his presentation..why? because my son had no "pure" ethnic origin or dance to present...we had gotten together cranberry bread and a tiny specimen of a ho-down, since our family ancestry was so blended, one couldn't choose a single strong ancestry..just "American"...the teacher told him that "It wasn't good enough to be "Just American"...When it came time to apply for college, Nathan, the black friend, got tons of scholarship money from the colleges due soley to his race, while mine got 5% and has to work two jobs....fortunately, these two are still friends and can joke about these things, but these are the small things that some folks use as building blocks for racism....do I think they are unfair??? You bet I do. The pendulum has swung way too far in the other direction where today it is cool to be a minority and way uncool to be white..on TV, you see the Black Entertainment Network...If there were a White Entertainment network, it would immediately be called racist..this, IMHO, is why the KKK and others are still flourishing...until the day comes when the adjectives are immaterial, when there is just an "entertainment network", when young folks get scholarships on merit or need alone, when new neighbors ALL are welcomed into any neighborhood, THEN it will be gone for good..both sides are to blame for keeping the flames alive. The folks in PA who decried the KKK pamphlets would have dropped over dead if a Black family came looking at our house when it was up for sale, and here in AL I don't think there is a single minority family in 30 miles..I met a Black woman a year ago in town and invited her out for a visit..when she heard where I lived, she laughed and told me I wouldn't live here long if she came calling!!!!! Makes me want to import folks of color just on general principle! Anyway, as long as folks wish to feel superior to one another, or some group..as long as folks like to use adjectives, there will be separateness..why call someone the "greatest Black journalist"??? or the Best Black Actor winning an Oscar? drop the color designation..teach children that people are people who have different cultures, different beliefs, different ways to cook their biscuits perhaps, BUT essentially, we are all the SAME! God bless.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), April 21, 2002.

Joel, if a black man decided to move to Craig county, that would not be anything close to 'forced integration'. Yes, you have every right to live in an area like that but to exclude others from that right based on the color of their skin is wrong.

Joel, you're perpetuating some myths there. I've lived in 90% black areas before and never had any problems at all of being accepted. I lived to see many sunrises. I look about as aryan white as they come too. It's a small percentage of blacks who think that way, just as your way of thinking is in the minority. The day will come when blacks live in Craig county, you can count on that especially being as close as it is to Roanoke.

I lived in VA not too far from there for a few years. The best friends, the people who helped me the most were black. They were intelligent enough to not take a persons skin color in account when judging a man. They didn't assume that because a person was white that they lived a stereotypical 'white' culture as you apparently think black skinned people do. I mean really Joel, would you let a black man save your life? Give you a blood transfusion? If not then I know where you stand and it's not anywhere close to what I assumed since you speak of injustice and Freedom so much.

Lesley, I saw those fools alot in Berks county, PA. Most people just laugh at them now, the joke's on them. I got a good laugh once when I lived in Midland City, Alabama. That little town was white on one side, black on the other. I rented a room from an old woman there for about a year. She had a few trailers she rented out. She advertised in the Dothan newspaper. One day a well dressed young black couple pulled up in a nice car to inquire about a rental. I stood right behind that woman and shook my head while she told these nice people it was already rented. When they left I asked her why she did that. She said she'd be run out of town if she rented to blacks. Well, shortly thereafter the worst white-trash you could imagine moved in that trailer and proceeding to destroy it and finally roll out in the middle of the night owing her several months back rent. Poetic justice indeed. ; )

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.


Something else you mentioned Lesley. From what I've seen it's just as many whites making those designation and divisions. Over-zealous guilt complex? I don't quite understand it. Most blacks I know roll their eyes and are embarrassed by that stuff, like "best black actor". Where I live now blacks and whites are both minorities so it's kind of a non-issue. My childrens best friends and playmates here are mostly black, good kids with good parents and as far as I know the kids have never noticed or cared about skin color anymore than hair or eye color.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

I don't mean to stir a well stirred pot but here are some observations I have made over the years. In many cities/towns/counties you will have a good side of town and a bad side of town. You will have a side of town that has high real estate values and a side of town that has low real estate values. Look at the populations of these two areas and you will notice something. The good side of town/high real estate value will almost always have a majority of white folks. Now I'm not saying this is wrong or right mind you....just something I've noticed. I grew up outside Tyler Texas....just south of it actually. When I was growing up we were considered way out in the boonies. When I finally moved away it was quickly becoming sub-divisions. Why? because the north side of Tyler is predominantly black/mexican and south Tyler is white. The folks from north Tyler are trying to move as far south as they can afford, to get away from the drive by shootings and the drugs......the people that live in the neighborhood that these folks are moving to are moving further south.....why? because they know it will just be a matter of time before the shootings and the drugs move to them. I was discussing this with a realtor one day. She said the reason why so many folks have leapfrogged out to where I used to live is they are hoping to be able to stay put for a few years before the 'undesirables' catch up to them. Now I bet each and every one of you have witnessed the same thing. Look at an assembly of kids sitting in the bleachers at a pep-rally. Notice something?...yep you will almost see a dividing line between the different races. We are naturally segregated.....God made us different colors. Now this doesn't mean that you should judge a person by their skin color.....you shall know them by their fruits. By the way I'd like to point out that I have been in some cities that are predominantly minority....gorgeous homes and well kept neighborhoods(there are some like that in far north Tyler also). It almost seems like the stress around the 'color line' is where you will see ghettos and shacks by both minorities and whites). Some interesting studies have been done. A school just for black students was started....no other color allowed. Guess what, they did much much better! Their standardised test scores went way up. Same could be demonstrated with other ethnic groups I'm sure. Sometimes I think we get so caught up in trying to not be racist(or politically correct...choose your term) that we are unable to discuss things reasonably and impartially. Just something to think about(ok now if you must throw tomatoes at me please make sure they are homegrown :o).

-- Amanda (mrsgunsmyth@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

Lesley Bless you, I wish I could express my self like you do. I can always depend on you for clear and precise answers. You have got to be well educated, or well read, one or the other.I know your in pain most of the time, yet inspite of it, your always here for us. We had a school in Phoenix, back in the 50's, that was all black. They had work shops, big gym, and all the great things a school should have. Well the good white people decided that the school should be closed. The Black people were against it, But no way could they stop it. The black children were bused to the white schools. And they were so mistreated the students in high school were dropping out left and right. And so it goes. With Love

-- Irene texas (tkorsborn@cs.com), April 21, 2002.

ACT OF WAR - any act occurring in the course of declared war; armed conflict, whether or not war has been declared, between two or more nations; or armed conflict between military forces of any origin. 18 U.S.C.

Gosh Joel, I can't see where a minority moving into your county even remotely constitutes an act of war, no matter how overt, as defined by the same US Constitution that you are forever ranting about protecting. And you needn't worry about my trying to purchase land in Craig County- it doesn't sound like the sort of place I would want to live.

The public housing unit to which you referred is actually called Cabrini Green. Here's a tip for you- when attempting to intelligently debate any issue it is helpful to maintain one's credibility by using quotes and references accurately.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), April 21, 2002.


I don't think I need to worry about this one too much. There is racism in NZ, but it is not very evident on our street where I don't think there are any 'black' people but we have quite a variety of shades of brown and yellow to choose from! On our little cul-de-sac I see the faces of: Cypriots, Indians (one family from India, another from Fiji), Chinese, Taiwanese, Polynesians (from Samoa, Cook Islands, and of course New Zealand), right down the end live my wife and I (English/Scottish/Irish ancestory), does this constitute a 'white enclave'? Other faces I might see on our streets include those of Vietnamese, Somalians and Afghans.

Folks have asked me about immigration to NZ and I just never thought to warn that any thoughts of racial intolerance would make living here very uncomfortable for you.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), April 21, 2002.


Joel you asked, "How does it feel to belief in something so wrong that you believe that you are right?"

I don't know, you tell me. ; )

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.


Whoever it was that said racism is not just a southern issue is so right. In England it was English vs Irish. We all know what the Jews have suffered from the very dawn of their existance. During the time of Christ, it was Jews vs Samaritans and Jews vs Romans. Here in Canada we have the French vs the Anglophones (English- speaking). In any New World country, it's been the English/Spanish vs the Natives. In major US cities, gang fights are often one race over another. Practically everyone in every place all through history has known of racism and prejudice.

Christians are not exempt, as we all know of racism perpetuated in the name of Christ, from the Crusaders to the Nazis, and beyond. But if we who say we belong to Christ will read our Bibles carefully, live it, and preach it in our churches, we will be able, like Christ, to embrace people of every race and colour.

"Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all." Colossians 3:11

This verse talks about people groups during New Testament times, but I think it puts the point across.

-- Cathy N. (eastern Ontario) (homekeeper86@sympatico.ca), April 21, 2002.


I have to laugh..alot..my dear, dear grandfather was from Ireland..he had a third grade education, spoke with a marvelous accent, and was one of the most inrigiuing men I have ever met in my life. He read voraciously, and always told us he would never lay a hand on us grandchildren UNLESS we were foolish enough to defy him regarding getting an education.He made it his business to be self-educated regarding american history, with the history of Boston as his specialty. When he died, he left to me his most prized possesion; a handbill which red, "NO IRISH NEED APPLY". We spent many hours in discussion about the Boston irish when I was a teenager, how they were JUSTIFIABLY hated because they were, as he put it so well, "A trooly filty lot of scoom, drinkers who beet der wives and sma childrens and were good fur nottings at tal"..how they threw their slop pails right out the windows onto the sidewalks, cursed,and swore, yet showed up for Mass every Sunday in their best clothes assured of forgiveness for Saturday nights' behavior at the bars.! They singlehandely made Bostons' first slums, caused numerous health hazards, and were reknowned for fighting at the drop of a hat. It took them a mere half a century to straighten up their act..they knew in order to survive, they would have to change and most of them did so....by the new century, the owned the entire city of Boston, with an Irish mayor and police force..Grandpa's lesson was that most working folks have a choice..you can choose to wallow, or you can choose to run the city..Boy I loved that man! A mere 50 years ago there was no such thing as a Black mayor of any large city in the United States..there was no Black middle class in this country...just as the Irish did, the Blacks in this country are coming into their own, and just as the Irish, some choose to remain in the wallowing mode and some choose to run the city.....the only difference historically in what the two groups are accomplishing is that it was easier to see with the Irish because it was a single city and there were less of them.....history speaks volumes to us if we only look.

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), April 21, 2002.

I still sometimes chuckle at the ignorance of people concerning skin color. I remember vividly, about forty years ago, how my mother called a Native American Indian a dirty savage. How stupid! In fact, he is half French, but that didn't matter to my mother! What made me laugh at her was the fact that the dirty savage lived in a house that made my mother's look like a pig sty. How sad she was so filled with prejudice that she never got to know him or his people.

-- Ardie/WI (ardie54965@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

Just an interesting little tidbit that has little bearing on the discussion - I was raised in a small country school that was known as "black" because at one time the school was mostly made up of "black" students. We were the only ones in the county (big school or little) who were out for Martin Luther King Jr. Day the first few years after it was established (or at least I think it was right after it was established - It was the mid-80's).

What amazed all of the students was that we were considered a "black" school when in our class of 20 we had about 4 black kids, and probably twice that many that were either full blooded American Indian or at the very least had a roll number (indian roll number) that connected them to one tribe or another! (Lots of different tribes in Oklahoma, I'm sure you have all learned the history at one time or another to know why!)

-- Christine in OK (cljford@mmcable.com), April 21, 2002.


It's so sad!!! I agree with a lot of you and like Melissa said, we need to "Start with our children". I've heard 4 year olds make racial slurs without even knowing what they are saying.

-- cowgirlone in ok (cowgirlone47@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.

Well, I'm being grossly misunderstood and nothing I can write will change anyone's minds. I cannot even spell Cabrinie Green to ELizabeth's liking although it must have been close enough for her to understand that if she went there after dark it would be her last trip anywhere !

I wouldn't mind if any minority moved to Craig county, if they could move here in safety. They are safe from me but I cannot control the masses. No, Dave--it just ain't gonna happen in our lifetimes. Minorities have moved to Franklin, Bedford, and some have made it on the outskirts of Boutetourt. Many have been burned out for attempting to try Boutetourt. Not one one of those brave souls would even consider Craig. There is just no law enforcement to protect them and what is here wouldn't help them.

Your arguments trouble me though for it is this way of thinking that nearly exterminated the Native American. Your just as willing to kill to advance your ideas on the unwilling as they are to kill you to protect their way of life. Your way of thinking I gave seen the result of --on the reservations. Your so very proud and indignant as to your accomplishments of forcing your ideas on people ! Isn't the reservation such a lovely place ? Can't you just feel the love ? My, My what a world these ideas have created. Just for fun--let's tear down the old slums and build new ones ? That might keep you busy for two or three generations. I'm afraid you just can't comprehend the damage you do to indiginous people's !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 21, 2002.


Joel, I'm confused over what you're saying there. Are you saying that the whites in appalahcia are indigenous people? All this time I thought they originated from europeans who came over here and brought disease, killing and deception to gain that land from the people who inhabited it for many generations. Oh, and they brought black people with them.

I'm equally confused over your comparisons to the reservations? Are you saying those reservations weren't built as a form of segregation?

It doesn't really matter to me who lives where. I just wish people would be upfront, sincere and factual about the issue.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 21, 2002.


Well Joel, I am certainly confused- a minute ago we were discussing discrimination against African-Americans and now all of a sudden you are blaming us for nearly killing off Native Americans. Actually, no one here but you has mentioned killing anyone, unless I missed something. But let me clarify something for you- I am not interested in killing anyone in order to force my ideas on them and I never killed anyone to protect anyone else's way of life, as you put it. In fact, I never even killed anyone, for any reason. In your eyes I must be a real slacker. That is some quantum leap you made there.

I think the reservation system was established several generations before I was born, so I can't claim responsibility for killing off any Native Americans, either.

I find it interesting that you are so willing to spew rhetoric about the oppression of the Indians, yet by your own admission you sit idly by while innocent minorities are terrorized in your own area. I had the impression from your earlier postings that you were a man who professed to be willing to stand up for what you think is right, for freedom, etc. If you reside in a county or state in which minorities must fear for their lives then why aren't you doing something to effect change in order to guarantee the safety of these "brave souls"?

I realize that it is often difficult to understand exactly what another poster really intends his written words to mean, but I think I read you loud and clear Joel, and I do not believe that you are the freedom loving, God-fearing patriot that you profess to be.

By the way, regarding Cabrini Green- there are actually some very positive things going on there these days, aside from all the drug and gang-related activities. There is a group of people there who have something in common with a lot of us, in that they too are seeking to achieve a degree of self-sufficiency by planting gardens and selling herbs and greens to upscale Chicago restuarants; they have an aquaculture project going; and they also raise worms, amongst other things. And for the record, the population there is only 99% black :>)

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), April 21, 2002.


There is a big difference between a racist and a segregationist. We, as people, are natural segregationists based on culture, not color. Just like I prefer to hang with other mature Christians instead of common heathens and I don't care what color or background you have.

We have many black friends that work with my spouse and they do miss their own culture out here and have to go to the cities for their cultural events. I mean, really, do our black friends have an interest in our local Cultural Heritage Days? Logger Days, Hickory Shirt Days and that sort of thing? NOT!

Because of my cultural background, I am much more comfortable with our Native American, Mexican and black friends and neighbors than I am with the white folks in town, in and out of the churches. They seem to dislike everyone who is not like them. While our town seems quite friendly, there is quite a bit of violence against non- whites, ponytails and tourists.

-- Laura (LadybugWrangler@somewhere.com), April 21, 2002.


Wait a minute, wait a minute......Laura...just because YOUR Black buddies that your husband works with aren't interested in your local Heritage Days does not mean that there aren't any Black folks who would be interested?????It ALL depends upon the individual, not lumping folks into a stereotyped group....this is how folks get off the track...it all depends upon the individual and their own heritage..there were many, many Black folks whose ancestors were cowboys and railroad workers, and early ranchers..those folks would surely be interested in Heritage Days of the Old West right alongside of some of mine...then there were a ton of Blacks who were whalers from Marthas vineyard in the 1700s and 1800s..those folks would be active participants in whaling heritage days in Massachusetts and Maine and have Zero intrest in African Heritage days since their folks had been here in the states so long, slavery was not an issue for them. Not all Blacks were slaves here..there were a goodly percentage of them who were always freedmen, immigrants from Canada and Great Britain (obviously after 1865). You are right of course that we all are more comfortable with participating in our own cultural activities, yet it is a quantum leap to presume that because a person is a minority, that we already are aware of their cultural background and interests...it's like saying that by looking at me, you can tell that I would be more comfortable in town at a jazz festival rather than here in the country with bluegrass....IMHO, making such judgements leads to grouping folks en masse and tends to keep us separate...Just a thought (or two LOL)

-- lesley (martchas@bellsouth.net), April 21, 2002.

NO, of coarse not--the mountain people are not the original indiginous people of Craig county. However, they are the current indiginous people of Craig County. What we have here is a failure to communicate ! We are, or most of us are saying a lot of the same things--I'm just not makng my point clearly enough to be understood !

The comparison of Native American dislocation and the relocation of minorities to suit people who are far removed from the problem is very clear to me--I just am unable to make it clear to you. I actually have never heard of a "problem with minorities" discussed at any level in Craig. I just see the signs of a people that don't want any change to their way of life. I read of stories in the Roanoke paper of other areas.

I have heard my wife's nurse friends refuse to cross the county line to attend a party at our home. They were polite and said "you know good and well black people don't go to Craig" I replied--"most smart white people don't come to Craig either " and we all laughed. It is just a reservation in itself, this county I call home. One of the last untouched areas in the country. We are a generation lost in time. People just asking to be left alone and pretty much getting our way. To change anything here or attempt to change it would bring staunch resistance.

The wall of mountains around Craig not only keeps people out but more important --it keeps us in. Many of you cannot see the beauty in that and I'm sorry for that. To change one thing here would be a crime and as I stated before--be considered an act of war.

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 21, 2002.


1. Shouldn't there also, in this vast country, be set aside reservations, for peoples of differing colors, to live among only those they wish to live among ?

2. Your arguments trouble me though for it is this way of thinking that nearly exterminated the Native American. Your just as willing to kill to advance your ideas on the unwilling as they are to kill you to protect their way of life. Your way of thinking I gave seen the result of --on the reservations. Your so very proud and indignant as to your accomplishments of forcing your ideas on people ! Isn't the reservation such a lovely place ?

3. I'm afraid you just can't comprehend the damage you do to indiginous people's !

4. NO, of coarse not--the mountain people are not the original indiginous people of Craig county. However, they are the current indiginous people of Craig County. What we have here is a failure to communicate !

Ok Joel, finally I agree with something you have said- we definitely have a failure to communicate. See itís kind of hard to figure out what you mean when you keep contradicting yourself from one post to the next. First you ask if we shouldnít have reservations. Then, in the next post, you condemn the rest of us for forcing the Indians on to the reservations (I still maintain that I had nothing to do with that- thatís my story and Iím stickiní to it). Then you talk about how we damage the indigenous people (Indians?), but not the ORIGINAL indigenous people, rather the CURRENT indigenous ones. Man, what are CURRENT indigenous people! Ya got me.

-- Elizabeth (ekfla@aol.com), April 22, 2002.


I just luv ya, Elizabeth--you know i always have. The current indiginous people are the present land owners. I'm also sure you would get 6000 different opinions from each of them. The most popular would be--"what race problem ? We don't even have a nascar track !" Are we getting one ? Followed by--What's a minority ? We don't have a college, or any of those college clubs here.

Than just tell them that your going steal 150 acreas from one of them and build a housing project for foriegn people and Black folks. Than start running and IF you make it back as far as my farm than I'll protect you, I promise !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 22, 2002.


Well, you're certainly entitled to your way of thinking, however misguided I think it is. I don't quite know what you mean about 'untouched'. Craig county is a small piece of land compared to lots of vast wide open areas in the US. I'm wondering if you mean 'untouched' by minorities, whatever that's supposed to mean. I find it funny that people there think a minority moving in would change their way of life. That's a shame people fear what they don't understand. It reminds me of when I went to jr and high school that was 100% white and heard racist comments from people who'd never even seen a minority outisde of tv, let alone talked to one in person. Now 20 years later there's minorities living there. There hasn't been any added crime and drug problems have probably lessened. Nothing much has changed there at all in that valley, certainly not for the worse.

I lived in and travelled all through the south when I got out of school and I saw just as much depravity in some of the whites as I did in some the blacks. Just as many living in bad conditions. I saw just as many white criminals, deadbeat parents, drunks, drugdealers and other good for nothings. Funny thing though it was mostly ignored by the whites while they focused on talking about the blacks problems. I guess it was easy for me to see the irony not being blinded by prejudice.

To some of those other comments, maybe the blacks in your towns would be living better if they weren't oppressed by racism. It's kind of hard to get ahead when people won't even give you the time of day because of the color of your skin. Kind of hard to be at a local factory and move up the ladder when too many misguided whites would have a problem with taking orders from a black person, no matter how skilled he or she is above them. The more that dies away, the better they'll be living. And it will die away in another generation or two no matter how much you think things are set in stone. You're either part of the problem or part of the solution.

For a good part of this nation it's not even an issue anymore. Sure, there's some areas where blacks are just as separatist as some whites but it'll get less and less as time goes on. It already has where I live now and where I moved from back east. You don't see those dividing lines in the bleachers here. People have better things to think of than what color a persons skin is. There's way too many cultures and colors in my area to have much of any divisions anyway.

Joel, I guess if I happened to live in Craig county and you guys took it as an act of war that a minority moved in there, I'd be on your opposing side. Sure enough if they started burning people out out town. Freedoms side I guess you could call it. I wouldn't go down easy either. Your local land baron there and the so-called law enforcement, when you get down to it they're all just men who are born and die like everyone else.

-- Dave (multiplierx9@hotmail.com), April 22, 2002.


I really agree with you Dave, they are just men. I'm really sorry I cannot put into words what I am trying to say.

Untouched was a reference to non-civilized, undeveloped, a home for bears and mountain cats. Dangerous, wild, and free.

I think it was Star Trek where the crew had the "prime directive" which was--under no conditions interfere with the natural growth process of the inhabitants. That was what I was really trying to convey. I can see there are many who just can't wait to interfere here. For your health and well being I seriously advise against it. Many people disappear around here each year. This is not a threat just the facts. 7 last year. It is just not a place where different ideas thrive !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), April 22, 2002.


I "think" it is time to put this topic to rest!! I believe that we all agree that predjudice is wrong, but maybe disagree on the solving of the problem.

I in a way I understand what Joel is saying. He does not understand why anyone would want to subject themselves to what it would take to open up his area to diverstiy. That is would be "easier" on the minority person to just stay away.

Which may be true, but there are always those who do not want to take the easy way out, there are always those who push through the barriers, there are those who want their voices heard... And by such brave people this country was founded, has prospered and will continue to proclaim the cry of freedom and justice FOR ALL...

-- Melissa in SE Ohio (me@home.net), April 22, 2002.


im doing a report. does anyone know how he kkk hierarchy goes? if you do email me if its not to much trouble...

-- nathan (nrenn90@yahoo.com), October 18, 2002.

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