I know this is off topic but I would like to express my deep personal regrets to our Canadian forum members for the tragic deaths of four Canadian soldiers yesterday in Afghanistan. We in the USA appreciate the support and friendship of our neighbors to the north. It is unfortunate that words cannot heal the hurt, nor can they stop evil. The cost of freedom is very high and many have given their lives that others may enjoy this privilege. To all who have served or contributed in the ongoing fight against terrorism, regardless of country or nationality, I say "THANK YOU". LB

-- Luther Berry (lberrytx@aol.com), April 19, 2002

Answers

Thanks for your kind thoughts, Luther. Just don't let it happen again, eh?

-- Paul Chefurka (paul@chefurka.com), April 19, 2002.

Luther - Your kind words are appreciated. Many thanks.

-- Ivor quaggin (iquaggin@rogers.com), April 19, 2002.

I can sympathize with the pilot, actually. I realize he will have to carry this with him for the rest of his life. What I can't understand is releasing a weapon under these circumstances. Designated training area! I can understand a short round, even understand the issue a while ago with the GPS coordinates. I can understand firing on your own troops if they are in close contact. I can't understand this at all. Just plain dumb.

-- Greg Marshall (greg.marshall@edworks.ca), April 19, 2002.

Greg: Not that it's any more comfort - but my paper (Rocky Mountain News - Denver) led its national/international news with this incident - and would have played it even higher if we hadn't also lost a local man among the four Americans killed disarming weapons in Kandahar the day before.

Some US editors may have strange priorities - but I suspect the folks y'all helped out at Gander and other airports in the days after 9/11 felt sick about this, too.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), April 19, 2002.

Sympathy from New Zealand too. This week honours were presented to the family of a major in the New Zealand Special Air Services who was killed about a year ago in Kuwait by "friendly fire" from US Navy jet. I suppose that was little reported in the US too. While one of the virtues of this forum is that it largely keeps clear of political issues, I think it is vitally important for Americans to keep abreast of international events - to realise that other countries exist too - and to avoid an isolationist stand. Not to do so is perilous.

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), April 19, 2002.

Just a thought, but if Bush, Jr. had not been "elected", would "9/11" have happened? I believe the last war the US was in was started by his father.

-- Ian MacEachern (iwmac@sympatico.ca), April 19, 2002.

The older I get the more I think that war sucks big time.It ruins those who fight it... those who live in it and with it... and those who lose friends and relatives while staying at home. No one wins...ever.The kids who are recruited to fight these wars dont generally know their ass from a hole in the wall as they are only barely out of high school.It is absolutly the stupidest and saddest activity that man has ever created.If we dont stop this nonsense soon, with our unending creation of ultimate weaponry to maim and kill our so called ememies, we will really end up destroying ourselves.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 19, 2002.

My condolences to our Canadian brothers and sisters. As a former officer in the United States Army, I can assure you that the grief of the F16 driver who dropped the bomb is second only to the grief of the immediate family members of the killed and wounded. This incident will be investigated and any that are guilty of negligence will be disciplined.

We have lost a few of our own in friendly fire incidents, accidents, bomb clearing efforts and enemy fire in Afghanistan as well. We lost about 3,000 on 9/11. That does not make the loss of our Canadian brothers any less painful.

Unless you haven't noticed, the al Qaeda boys desire to end Western civilization and turn all the world's women into slaves. We have a real fight on our hands. I appreciate the help from the British, Australians, Germans, Pakistanis, Russians, French, friendly Afghans and many others that know what the world is up against. To Mr MacEachern, as for your implication of President Bush being responsible directly or indirectly for 9/11, if you think President Clinton was a friend of al Qaeda, just count the number of dead in Mogadishu, Somalia and the number of cruise missles shot on his orders to kill UBL.

I agree that war is bad, but losing this war to the bad guys would be worse for our women and children. Thank you Canadians for joining the fight - with your help, I know that our side will win. Unfortunately, the price of freedom is indeed high as Luther first posted.

-- Doug Landrum (dflandrum@earthlink.net), April 20, 2002.

I am horribly sorry, but I accidently deleted the following three posts. These posts were right after Ivor's post that reads, "Luther - Your kind words are appreciated. Many thanks. "

Again... I am very sorry for this. Here are the three posts:

Friendly fire is understandable in the fog war. This incident does not appear to fall within that category, but appears to be a case of a poorly-briefed pilot operating outside theatre rules of engagement. I find it appalling, and frankly unforgiveable. That the American press should relegate it to an inside page (p.4 in the LA Times, p.10 in the Orange County Register), secondary to such newsworthy events as the arrest of a washed-up actor for the murder of his wife, just rubs salt in the wounds. Condolences are welcome, but are thin stuff indeed to the families.

Answered by Greg Marshall (gregm@cox.net) on April 19, 2002

Yes, Luther, but more and more people will die, including my fellow Australians if George Bush doesn't stop "mouthing off and antagonising his enemies". He is also creating new ones by telling the world, "with us or against us". I have American friends who are scared of his words and fear even greater destruction than what was witnessed on 9/11.

And mouthing off that Sadam is next! What, do they think that Sadam doesn't watch this stuff on TV? He's probably sitting down having a cup of tea with good old Osama as we speak. Sadam and Osama are two men not to be antagonised, as it will just make the situation more of a challenge for them- which is what they want.

Sure something has to be done, but can't it be kept a little more quiet? I am glad that Austrlian Prime Minister John Howard is sitting back and not saying much. I feel safer this way. As much as George bush needs to catch these men, he has not adressed the problems that got America in problem to begin with. He should be helping the poor in third world countries by spending much more $$$ to rebuild the country (than already planned) they let be destroyed over 20 years ago, when they trained Osama and the Afgahans to fight and then left them to die. What was the result? Modern day Afganistan.

By no means am I a political expert, but these are my feelings and I don't wish to be flamed, and neither will I respond to replies to this post. Just my feelings....Done.

Answered by Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com) on April 19, 2002.

Gregg -

Having been both a fighter pilot and a bomber pilot in my Air Force career, I can tell you that the F-16 jockey in question truly is dismayed, utterly sorry, confused, humiliated and depressed over this mistake. He will be branded with this for life.The ROE's (rules of engagement) change rapidly in a conflict such as the current Afganaistan fiasco. In my career, I've never met a fighter pilot or bomber pilot who would willingly and deliberately go on his own to do what happened yesterday. Terrible mistakes do happen, but, I'll clue you, they don't happen due to willful disobedience of your mission briefing instructions. The "fog of war" takes on a different meaning in the air, as opposed to those ROE's on the ground or at sea. You've got seconds to make up your mind - - not minutes, hours or days.

Answered by George C. Berger (gberger@his.com) on April 19, 2002.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 20, 2002.

Now, having half-way corrected my screw-up (yes, moderators have the right to screw up every once in awhile), I must say that I object to most of the posts in this thread beyond the, "There was a terrible mistake made, we are very sorry for the tragic loss of life, and we salute you, Canada..." but now there is a bunch of political discussion which doesn't really belong in the forum. Warning: The entire thread is in danger of being removed. I just want to say this to warn anyone who deems this thread reasonable enough to print before its demise. I've seen threads like this go to hell in a hand basket many times before on this board and there is no reason to think it cannot happen again.

You are, of course, welcome to flame me like crazy...

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 20, 2002.

Friends,

Let me express my regrets for all the needless deaths that have occurred on and after 9/ll. Just when we think we have completely spent our capacity to grieve, an incident like this one comes along and we see otherwise.

As there are other places for that purpose, I will not make a political statement.

This terrible occurrence reminds us how uncertain and fragile life is. This is what makes the moments we preserve on film precious.

May good fortune protect every one of you.

Alex

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), April 20, 2002.

Tony,

You are correct. This thread was off topic at the start and has deviated further into political discussion. My apologies for that. I only thought it necessary to briefly let our Canadian friends know that we grieve with them over the tragic incident.

Now that we have said this, perhaps it would be best to delete this entire topic and let each person deal with the situation as they deem appropriate. LB

-- Luther Berry (lberrytx@aol.com), April 21, 2002.

Luther, I think this was a great thread, and it was addressed to our Canadian forum members, which makes it even better. I share your sentiments.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), April 21, 2002.

I share the sentiment entirely.

Now how about a similar post for our Afghan allies killed by friendly fire, to take but one example? I'm always struck by how we feel empathy for those who are geographically and ethnically close to us, and how little we feel for those who are not, no matter how grievous the circumstances.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 21, 2002.

Isn't it funny how our friends today are our ememies tomorrow in a national sense....and visa versa.Just awhile ago Saddam was our partner and friend in arms against Iran.... now he is our sworn enemy.I'm sure if you owned a Leica or a Nikon in the 1940's and displayed it proudly as we do today you would have been in big trouble.I think people need to think a little more and not buy the party line and blindly swallow it whole.Someone said awhile ago ... "Americans must beware of the military industrial complex gaining too much power" I'm paraphrasing here...but the man who said this shortly after WW II was none other than General/President Dwight D.Eisenhower.I think we should heed his sage advice.

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 21, 2002.

"I'm sure if you owned a Leica or a Nikon in the 1940's and displayed it proudly as we do today you would have been in big trouble."

Er, Emile, not quite. Many famous US war photographers used German cameras in WWII because they were the best back then. I don't think people were as doctrinaire back then as they are now.

For a perfect example, look atthis pictureof George Rodger and Robert Capa, two of the most famous Allied Photojournalists of their time, in full U.S. uniform in 1943, proudly wearing their German Leica and Contax in full sight.

Tony, sorry to go off-topic, but with this perfect a counter-example, I couldn't help it ;-)

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 21, 2002.

Hm, nothing worse than a slam-dunk fumbled :-(

Trying again

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 21, 2002.

Note also that these titans used

1. Everready cases.

and

2. Only one or two camera bodies. No massive Domkes ;-)

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 21, 2002.

Funny you didn't mention any photogs using Japanese cameras.Hmmmmm I wonder why???

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 22, 2002.

Come to think of it my dad used a Leica and Rollie through the war years.But is that really the real issue here?

-- Emile de Leon (knightpeople@msn.com), April 22, 2002.

The word "tragedy" should not be applied to regrettable accidents. It always implies the underlying intention of an inscrutable and unaccountable godlike power to frustrate basic aspirations through violence, at least as far as I can recall from my student days. The tragedy in Afghanistan, in this sense, is very real, but at quite another level. The cost of "freedom" is indeed very high.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), April 22, 2002.

Two comments; It was the Korean war where American photographers found out the Japanese were making very good cameras and excellent lenses.

Friendly fire: There was a study in Viet Nam where it was found that about 10% of the casualties were due to friendly fire. I am told the military was astounded.

-- Richard C. Trochlil (trochlilbb@neumedia.net), April 22, 2002.