Fairly important. Thought it was worth a look. Major predictions are (Yahoo Finance):

Income tax - A new tax band could apply to those with income above a certain level. The new tax rate could be between 45% and 50%.
National insurance - The NIC cap could be removed and/or the rate of NIC could be increased. An extra 1% could raise over £3 billion.
Stamp duty - Domestic stamp duty could be increased and there could be a reduction in the duty charged on shares traded on the London Stock Exchange.
VAT - The standard rate of VAT may increase from 17.5% to between 19% and 25%. An increase to 20% would raise over £9 billion.
Capital gains tax - The CGT share disposal rules may be simplified.
Inheritance tax - The nil rate threshold may be increased from £242,000 to £400,000. This would cost the Government £1.1 billion, however, a rate increase to between 40% and 50% would regain £600m.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Answers

Income tax is always a loser in PR. 50% upper bracket seems more than excessive.
Nat Ins - if we could be sure the hike would directly fund healthcare I don't imagine many would object to 1%.
Stamp Duty - pure con artistry this tax. And we had a recent up on the levels of Duty not that long ago.
VAT - tax on the poor. 20% would take the very piss out us all.
CGT - don't know enough about it.
Inheritance tax - probably the fairest measure suggested. Those at the lower end of inheritance (i.e. most of us) would benefit. The upper end pay a litte extra, but still stand to inherit the bulk.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

The onset of a Tory comeback could start this afternoon.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

I agree clarky...I really wouldn't mind a small hike in tax...i'd rather they did that than NI, VAT or any of the other stealth taxes but personally i believe they grossly mismanage the money they're already collecting off us and have a fucking cheek demanding for more...

I'm sick of paying for hugely over budget IT projects like the DSS smart card or the new air traffic control system that come in 10 years late and cost billions of pounds extra....

I could go on with pet hates but it's futile so i won't.....i've never voted tory in my life but labour are frankly pathetic so I might just out of protest...i'm sick of lies and mismanagement of the country...

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

The DSS smart card is truely a pile of sh*te

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Oh - don't we sill have a Tory government? I hadn't noticed.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

SKY NEWS ALERT - they just announced Gordon Brown is about to appear outside No 11.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

SKY NEWS ALERT UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE - they just announced Gordon Brown is leaving No 11. This is really exciting stuff.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

............I presume that's leaving for the House and not for good. We will see.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Not being a keen follower of UK politics I admit to being a little worried about the content of this thread.

But in keeping with the spirit of things, can someone explain to me why there should be any inheritance tax at all? Surely if Mum or Dad worked hard, paid their taxes, and saved a fortune, why can't they give me the money in their will?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

I could be wrong, but I suspect that the Royals don't pay inheritance tax. That's just for us plebs. If they do, how much did the old QM pay? Or was her overdraft that big? Still, we loved her, gawd bless.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

QM got around loads of the inheritance tax sting by having a £4m overdraft when she died.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

So the moral of that story is spend it all before you die, so your descendents won't have to worry about paying tax on it. Works for me! After all, saved up money is no use to you when you're rotting away in the ground. ;-)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Inheritance tax is a scam, just like VAT and Stamp Duty. Basically, wherever there's some unexpected income or trading HM Treasury will stick their noses in.

You wouldn't believe some of the waste in certain public sector departments...from personal experience I reckon I could cut around 10% of the GP training budget by simply not paying exhorbitant costs for residential courses at Cumberland Lodge in Windsor Great Park (one of the QM's (RIP) residences [former]). Or by not providing ludicrously lavish catering and splashing out on the latest laptop computers from the public purse for people earning £60k+

Gav, me and you should go in like John Harvey Jones and take a hatchet to the whole lot of them! ;-)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

I think you might've just changed your tune...

Doesn't this mean your lass has just gotten a nice payrise?

http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_569157.html

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Oh and inheritance tax only applies to middle class people who come into some cash....well in reality it does as all the really rich people employ tax mitigation advisors who protect them from that shit....

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Booze tax frozen (tho 14p per pint less for "small breweries and pubs that brew their own" timed to take effect in time for the World Cup). Vehicle excise licence frozen. FAGS UP 6p PER PACKET. NI up 1%

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

What is the current top rate of income tax in England Gav?

I am currently paying 50% here.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

You wouldn't believe some of the waste in certain public sector departments.

I can't believe it's as high as the waste in most large private companies, especially boardrooms, where people are paid vastly more than they deserve because of the absence of a free market the hypocrites proclaim so loudly.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Gav - not yet, she's still a deputy dawg...but is doing a training scheme thing (like NVQ) that will qualify her to apply in future.

Jonno - I'm sure that is probably the case. But I'd rather not be mugged for my money at source so that a well paid GP can sip out of a china cup and be served 6 course meals at exclusive locations in the interests of their 'education' (details on request).

E.g. I use AOL as my ISP, who equally have lavish parties at their customer's expense, but should I not fancy contributing to the director's beer gut I can change provider (and make them fat as well!). Govt taxation is excessive and the amount of public money poured away with almost no benefit is simply shocking. And believe it or not, I consider myself left of centre (with occasionally odd fascist tendencies)! :-)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Gus - top rate of tax is 40%. But ten we have National Insurance on top of that. That was about 10% but now up an extra 1% in this budget. What sort of health system do you have in Oz - state or private? If private, who tends to pay - individuals or companies??

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

That's rich Jonno, coming from someone who has so vigourously defended the indefensible that has routinely occurred within the boardroom at SJP! ;o{)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

(I think it's the same in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales too)

;-)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

NI up 1%, primarily for the NHS. Well, IMHO the NHS is a black hole. I've got no problems with pumping money into it, in fact I'm all for it, but only after they have sorted themselves out, not before. Just throwing money at the NHS the way it is currently set up will have no impact whatsoever, and will at last give the Tories something to get their teeth into ie higher taxes, nothing to show for it.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

I actually watched the Chancellor's Budget Statement for the first time - all 60 minutes or so of it - that is apart from nodding off for a few minutes in the middle!

In truth, it was a very accomplished performance, but one that fairly transparently gave a +ve spin to New Labour's performance on most issues - and indeed was entirely silent on issues like law & order, and transport.

Like others I abhor 'stealth taxes' which I believe are politically immoral, and the sleight of hand that pervades politics today - for instance, IDS pointed out that despite Brown's bragging about having reduced Corporation Tax to the lowest ever levels, and the lowest of the G7 countries, his proposed increase in NI is actually equivalent to increasing Corporation Tax from 30% to 33%!

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Oh, and BTW, I have private medical cover, but only 'cos I buy it myself direct, sacrificing other expenditure in the process. So I've got no problems with paying more for health, in fact I've got a vested interest in seeing the NHS work so I can ditch my private health fees. But I want to see a doctor/go into hospital when I need to, not when they're ready to see me, and not in some scruffy shit hole with the inmates punching each others lights out in the reception area.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Didn't realise you were a regular at sunderland general terry ;)) you sound like you know it so well....

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Nah Gav, too dodgy for me, I'm a QE bloke mesel:-))

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

vigourously defended the indefensible that has routinely occurred within the boardroom at SJP

Whaaaat? When have I ever done that then? :-)

I have vigorously defended the board against cheap unsubstantiated sideswipes eg - crap like they are tightwads who won't spend money - I've been proved right every single time on that one - lol! (Although that issue is entirely unrelated to the subject being discussed here). I have mounted no vigorous defence of the dividend policy or the salaries they pay themselves.

I reckon my views on lots of football things remain very consistent - possibly because of the difficulty I would have dreaming up new ones! I tend to make up my mind slowly - so that I won't need to go back and think it over again ... (not to mention the fact that it only operates at the one speed anyway). :-)

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Clarky, it may be true that the increase in NIC more than makes up for a reduced Corporation tax rate, but if you`re going to compare with the rest of Europe then you also have to factor in their social charges too. For instance, I don`t know what the French Corporation tax rate is, but I believe that their equivalent of NIC on both employers and employees is vastly greater than in the UK (perhaps Kiwi Toon or other French correspondents can back me up on this?)

As far as "stealth taxes" in general go, I agree up to a point, but the problem is that different taxes affect people in different ways. For instance, raising the top rate of income tax does not have the same effect as raising the rate of employees national insurance contributions because a. not everybody pays income tax at the top rate, b. Employees NIC has always been capped, c. lots of people who can afford to will reduce their tax bill by making deductible pension contributions, thus claiming relief at the new higher rate (at the expense of the rest of us).

Similarly, increasing VAT is theoretically a tax on us all but clearly affects a poor household spending 100% of it`s income more than it affects a rich household spending only 50% of it`s income and saving the rest (or using those savings to make pension contributions, which reduce their income tax bill).

As far as Inheritance Tax goes, it is a tool for the redistribution of wealth. More of a symbolic one than a significant one given that even before today`s budget you could leave over 200,000 pounds without paying any Inheritance Tax, but a symbol all the same. You can argue all night about how much one should be able to leave tax free (coincidentally most people think the limit should be just above the amount they stand to inherit) but personally I like that we retain this small gesture towards a meritocratic society.

It`s the same with virtually any tax you can name - whether you like them or not they do affect people in different circumstances in different ways.

One last thing - people in the top income tax bracket have commonly grumbled that they pay an excessive amount of tax. What is conveniently forgotten is that you stop paying National Insurance Contributions of 10% at around the same level of income as the 40% tax bracket kicks in. So in other words you`re not paying 40% compared to 23%, you`re paying 40% compared to 23% plus 10% NIC = 33%.

No wonder the Americans revolted over taxes........

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Fucking lefty....

I bet your paying fuck all in japan....

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Why not just have one tax...do away with NIC (national insurance my arse!), vat etc...have a single income tax with bands related to how much you earn...

I.E. those on fuck all pay nowt, those who earn low pay low, those who earnin the middle pay the middle band and the top earners pay the top rate...too simplistic? or would it stop them from fucking hiding things?

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Screacher, we have both private and state healthcare. Everyone pays the "Medicare" levy I think it is about 3.85%. If you want private health cover with your own choice of Doctor and no waiting list for any surgery private cover is available from several suppliers. I currently have a "Family" membership which covers me, Mrs gus and the gusette for about $200 per month. Most are paid for by the individual unless you negotiate it into your WPA.

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

or would it stop them from fucking hiding things?

That'd be the main reason US politicians never pay the idea any more than lip service over here. :-/

-- Anonymous, April 17, 2002

Gav - I agree with you wholeheartedly, but it is never likely to happen. Firstly because if you work out tax rates which honestly reflect what the Government (any party) takes from the population, by fair means or foul, it would scare the living daylights out of folk. Secondly, it would remove the opportunity for them to tax the same money over and over again.(:o|

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Exactly mum! they charge us too much, they know it so they try to hide it in confusion and bullshit....

It's scary to think that over 50% of my earnings are taken from me in tax that is for the most part wasted, as I said earlier if it was being spent wisely I wouldn't be so angry about it....I do a job I hate to earn that money why should I give it away.....

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

It would be easier to tolerate the deductions if you had any confidence that your money was being spent wisely. Fair enough, a proportion of the income from taxes may well be spent on helping those who need it and some will be invested in essential services - and that is exactly what it should be spent on. Who knows how the majority of our money is used?

We see daily examples of so many `bad` decisions, it is no wonder we have no faith that our hard earned, and I do mean `earned`, money is being used wisely.

Successive Governments have removed every incentive there was to improve oneself, to make adequate and secure provisions for your old age, and to generally arrange your own finances so that you are not a burden on society.

Then to cap it all, if you have been prudent and frugal enough to save some money, or buy a property, or build up a business....all achieved in a totally legitimate and fully `taxed` manner.....when you die, it`s taxed again and disappears into the `black hole`, otherwise known as the Treasury.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Let's remember we live in democracy gang - if we were all that unhappy with the raising and spending of taxes the answer always lies in our own hands. Unfortunately, the merciless media hounding of our public figures and prospective politicians that is tolerated, indeed often applauded, is causing fewer and fewer of those who might really make a difference to stand for public office.

ADK - The only point I was trying to exress was a distaste for the political dishonesty of stealth taxes, which as has already been identified on here, simply provide shades of grey enabling politicians to hide their mistakes and damned lies.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

NI is basically calculated off gross pay up to 108.13/week or 468.70/month. As has been said 10% of the gross pay, but there is an upper limit. There are no exceptions to what this tax applies to.

With the Tax you pay 10% up to 1880, 22% from 1881 to 29400, and 40% above with no top limit. There are however some deductions whiich can be taken off the gross. The main of these are tax credits supplied by the government and also pension contributions.

You can make up to 15% pension contribution TAX FREE. With the new rules about companies providing pensions this means a large amount tax free into your pension pot.

1% may not sound much but it soon buikds up and especially when the other option could have been to raise the upper limit and therefore take it off the people who could really afford it.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Heard a poitician on the radio this morning admit that the only reason we don't merge NI and income tax is purely political ie we would all see clearly what the bastards are taking of us, and tax bands of 30-51% would give the game away. Like we're all too stupid to have worked that one out by now. One thing the NI increase has done is to bring it all into the open and up for public debate. The cost to business of running two tax systems is totally unneccessary, not to mention the cost of a second arm of the Inland Revenue to collect it. (whoops, just mentioned it.) All of the wrinkles brought about by merging the two ie pensioners don't currently pay NI but they do pay income tax, could be easily ironed out. And thank you Galaxy for the inheritance tax thing. I am currently working my nuts off to kick start a business, paying huge slugs of tax with no government help on the way (I really think there should be tapered relief in years 1-3 to help new businesses find their feet), just to find that if I pass it on when I die they'll tax me/my heirs again. You wonder what's the point? And unless I've missed something, the extra 1% is not capped, so regardless of where the top rate tax band is, the 1% NI just keeps going all the way up to your last penny of income. Now that they've introduced this scam, rest assured they'll fiddle with it (read increase it) for the next three years at least, unless someone has the political courage to bring the debate out into the open and merge the two tax systems. And no way will the NHS be one jot better by the time of the next election, although we'll all be feeling the financial squeeze. The labour government have just handed the tories the perfect opportunity to get back into the game, unless they're too dumb to grasp it.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

ADK - one more point. Inheritance Tax may in your terms provide a gesture towards a meritocratic society, but imo at its current level it is also a damaging tax on entrepreneurs and the wealth creators that are so vital to our future national prosperity.

Unfortunately, most people in this mean-spirited country don't realise we already live in a meritocracy, and are still fighting a largely defunct class system and wealth inherited by virtue of social status and privilege.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

As I thought I understood it, the 11% NI rate will now apply to all earnings above about £4,000, with the old ceiling on NI contributions to be removed. So it really is an effective increase of 1% on all Income Tax bands.

Anyone believe this is incorrect?

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

The ceiling remains for the original 10% we pay... the extra 1% announced has no ceiling so it is 11% up to the ceiling and 1% after that.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

And there's the extra 1% employers contribution i've also now got to pay....

Fuck it, i'm taking it all offshore.....

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

get a real job Gav!

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

I might have to.....bloody IR35 first then extra employer and employee's contributions on top of a 15% rate cut this year cos we're in an effing recession!

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

[irony]I'm finding this thread a right rivetting read [/irony]

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

As a hard-working, low-income family-man, I am all for seeing some provision made for the continuation of the NHS. Anyone who reckons that private control of the health service will sort out waste and innefficiency is breathing the rareified air of earnings giving them the choice of going private. Come September I'll have 4 mouths to feed off my salary and the "typical family" in the examples provided earns 3 times what mine does. Guess that makes me scum and I should give my kids up for scientific experiments. What a dirty sponger I must be having the temerity to earn 15k instead of 47k, or am I a dirty commie for suggesting that wages for the majority of us are kept so ridiculously low precisely because the NHS and the like exists. Obviously I should be contributing to the NHS and a private scheme, silly me.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

If people didn't insist on living so long, and having expensive drugs (cue debate on exploitation by the pharmaceutical companies) we wouldn't be in the state we're in now! It's quite obvious we need to have a contiguous cull of the over 40s, followed by burning just to make sure. It's the only way.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Surely were getting onto the bloodsport issue now Bobby.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Anyone who reckons that private control of the health service will sort out waste and innefficiency is breathing the rareified air of earnings giving them the choice of going private

See the US, for an example of how well private control of health insurance works. Sure, you may get seen faster....IF you can afford health insurance. Those who can't can bog off and suffer. And you also get the choice of food and living with pain...or starving to afford the drugs to ease your pain. Being healthy is only for the rich here. Be thankful you've got NHS, it may have problems but at least you know there's something available.

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Terry, who is this "Top Rate Tax Band" you are on about, have you got a CD I can listen too!

I saw your ad about the lift to the toon, can you pick me up?

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Gus, never said they were a 'top rate' tax band, just bog standard. Popular with the Brown's and the Blair's mind. Can't recall the ad about the Toon lift, but I'm sure it read West London, not West Coast. If you're near Heathrow Airport early Saturday morning you're welcome. I offered Min a lift but I think he decided he'd rather walk :-))

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

ADK, the system in France is incredibly complicated. There is a taxation at source as well as a requirement to pay a lump sum later on, that is modulated according to various criteria, but is around 10%. In addition, there is also VAT on almost all products that varies from 5.5% to 19.7%. For the national insurance contributions in France, they vary according to salary. I have 14 different deductions marked on my pay slip, of which five are paid by me, six by my employer, and three by both of us. I haven't got a clue what all the abbreviations stand for. All the deductions that I have to pay add up to 19%, of which 6.6% is for my pension . My employer pays an amount equivalent to 38% of my salary. However, if you calculate the amounts based on the total sum (salary plus employers contributions), the figures reduce to 14% for me, and 27% for my employer. And that's not counting the 10% I have to pay in July.

And as far as the health system in France is concerned, there are effectively no waiting lists. There is, however, a requirement to pay for everything. A visit to the doctor costs 19.50€, of which 13€ is reimbursed by social security. I have health insurance on top of that, which pays the remainder. Most people use health insurance companies that are non-profit making, so it's not too bad cost-wise.

Despite all the tax, the allowances if France are quite good. We're currently receiving nearly 160€ a month for our baby, even though it isn't born yet. And I'm just off now to buy this months restaurant tickets. I can buy 11 each month for a face value of 3.05€, but at a cost of 1.52€. They are designed to reduce the price of lunches, but most restaurants accept them anytime.

All that's given me a headache. I think I'd better go and get my pay slip explained to me now!

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Can we include softie in this cull since he seems to think he's not worthy?

I don't think too many people would argue against extra taxation to improve the country and it's services if they felt that current taxation was being used efficiently....it's not...that's what I object too more than anything...

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

The add was on .com saying Terry@zoo was offering a lift figured it was you.

I know min, you are better off if he walks.

Bugger, I though I might have got a cheap way home!!

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

It's a fair cop. Any chance I can lose 6 stone, buy a shell-suit and develop a drug habit first?

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Not unless you're planning to move to liverpool....then it could be considered...

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

... still fighting a largely defunct class system ...

You surprise me Clarky. I'm sure the home truth that the majority of the real estate of Britain (and probably of the world, if the truth be known), is in the hands of a small minority of the population, still holds true.

It's that sort of thing that I see as being the divisive factor that will keep the 'largely defunct class system' going great guns as far into the future as will mean anything to me.

I'd also be interested to know on what you base your assessment that we're 'mean-spirited'. Even being the misery guts I am, I can't say mean spiritedness has struck me as being any more prevalent than it was prior to my dotage.

Mind, being in me dotage, I could be too bliddy dozy to notice.:-{E}

-- Anonymous, April 18, 2002

Gav, you`re absolutely right - I think I`m paying about 10% tax in Japan. No idea how they finance public services here, though it probably helps that for decades virtually everyone has had a job (seems to be changing now). Then again, maybe the top rate of Japanese tax is really high and I just don`t know about it because I don`t earn nearly enough to pay it?

Gus - Medicare is 1.5% plus an extra 1% if you earn over A$60,000 AND don`t have private medical insurance.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

This could develop into such an interesting discussion....and I`m out this morning...damn!

I also happen to think that the old `class` system has virtually disappeared. I don`t mourn its passing, but it has presented us with a whole new set of problems. As for `mean spirited`, well yes, (and I don`t mean you personally Pit Bill), as a nation we do seem to be, particularly on the subject of success in business.

Wasn`t there a survey or something done recently on the subject of `class`? Can anybody remember what the basis of the survey was, and the conclusion?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Japanese tax is: 0-3 million yen 10% (up to about 6,000 pounds)
3-10 million 20 % (6-50,000 pounds) etc.

I think it's worked out a little differently to the UK as in if you make 3.1 million yen, the first 3 million is taxed at 10 % and the rest at 20 %.

No idea if this helps anyone or not.

Did you get my mail Andy?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

PB - it seems to me that the prevalent class system these days is based around employment - that is, those who have a job fall into a relatively privileged class (although many in employment don't recognise this), those that don't fall into the other. The 'landed gentry' that you refer to, still exist but imo are largely an irrelevance.

If you don't believe this is a mean-spirited and cynical society you can't be connected to the media. As a society we find it difficult to accept the success of others, and have great difficulty ascribing it to anything more than pure chance, privilege or the abuse thereof, or corruption. In fact, almost anything but hard graft, talent, risk-taking and sheer balls - which is what it usually takes.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

There will always be people who own land, are richer than others. They may have inherited their possessions or the current generations nouvea riche (sp).

Inheritance tax is a funny thing. If you have over £400k or whatever the number is, then your estate is hit by it. Less and your not. Can't see Softie worried about leaving his wee sprogs with nothing to live on in 40 years time cos the inheritance tax is going to hit him. 1% extra on NI does make a difference though.

Amused by the guy in the street I heard interviewed who just kept repeating 'how can they say the NHS is free when we keep getting taxed to pay for it'. How do you argue with that ?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Amused by the guy in the street I heard interviewed who just kept repeating 'how can they say the NHS is free when we keep getting taxed to pay for it'. How do you argue with that ?

With great difficulty. He is obviously too ignorant and stupid to understand any answer you might give. It reminds me of when I was about 6 or so and was watching something at the cinema about Britain in the Space Race(lol). As I recall we were going to lag behind because of the costs of "Blue Streak" (or was it Stephenson's Rocket?) or whatever it was spearheading our effort. The 6-y-o Jonno was upset that Blue Streak cost so much and wondered why all the suppliers didn't just give the stuff to the Government to help us win the Space Race. :-)

I think there was a reason - I'll remember it in a minute ...

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

ADK - Andy Abbey you have retired as a tax consultant...go and teach English or something useful.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

... prevalent class system these days is based around employment ...

It's precisely this class on which I base my opinion that the 'largely defunct class system' isn't in fact defunct. It's just that the membership has changed drastically.

As far as I see it, the old class was populated by the historical 'robber baron' types who passed their ill gotten gains down through the generations. These ill gotten gains were amassed in the main through physical power.

What's changed is that now, civilisation has supposedly progressed to the extent that amassing property by force has become illegal in most first world countries, happening more these days in certain countries in the third world.

The gains are amassed these days in much more subtle ways, and I see this as the main difference, the outcome being more or less the same.

As for envying those with the balls to go it alone etc, I see no merit in allowing some geezer with enough balls to go it alone, make an anus of it, and then be allowed to have the balls to start up again as if nowt had happened, and very often leave many casualties in his wake.

When this is magnified to the scale of Enron, it doesn't surprise me that a lot of us might be mean spirited.

I can't help but conclude that having balls means very little more than having the nerve to take advantage of certain ambiguous legalities, which I wouldn't quibble at in any way if the only victim when it goes wrong, is the guy with the balls.

Seems to me, the majority of victims are those who don't have the balls. And having now thought a bit about it, you're probably right. We are mean spirited. But I'd maintain, probably with good cause.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

PB - I'm afraid you're falling into the standard media-fed trap of assuming that the exception is the norm, and of damning all entrepreneurs with the crimes of the few. This is a classic example of the media-induced attitudes that have created the prevelant mean- spirited cynicism in this country.

It was entrepreneurial wealth- creators that lead the industrial revolution and created the British Empire - and before the cynics dive head-first into that one - and created the relative national wealth that we still enjoy.

It is absolutely essential that we foster and encourage that same entrepreneurial spirit unless we wish to descend to true 3rd World status when we have completed the current transfer of our remaining manufacturing jobs to the Far East and Eastern Europe.

If you really believe that entrepreneurs/wealth creators do "very little more than having the nerve to take advantage of certain ambiguous legalities" then we really need to discuss this at length over a pint or three. It's my round actually!

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Does anybody really think that inheritance tax acts as a deterrent to entrepreneurs? I find it hard to believe that a budding Richard Branson is sitting somewhere thinking "Hmm, I`ve got this great idea for a business, it`ll make me millions and provide lots of people with jobs. But I don`t think I`ll bother because when I die the government will take a portion of it away from my heirs".

Also, you can give your money away while you`re still alive. You can give away, tax free, the 200,000 threshold (or 400,000, or whatever it is these days) every 7 years. You can therefore leave your heirs with an extremely healthy start in life before the government takes a bite. Just how much do you need to leave?

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Inheritance Tax is not a deterrent to entrepreneurs, and actually doesn't raise much tax revenue either. Actually, all that needs to be done is to fund a single-payment insurance policy that grows in line with nett worth and ultimately pays the IT bill when you kick your clogs - leaving the dosh to the kids.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

ADK, that's fine if you can predict when you're gonna die. Unless you're up for topping yourself, in which case inheritance tax is the last thing on your mind.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

You're on, Clarky, but in the meantime, I had hoped I was a bit more astute than to have blundered blindly into the ' standard media-fed trap '.

I have absolutely nothing against an entrepreneur doing it all completely on his own. It's when the need arises that others have to be brought in who aren't entrepreneurs and don't have the balls to go it alone, that the problems arise.

It seems to me that it's all too easy that these others can end up being exploited, and this exploitation extends, in a lot of cases, even to the market at which the outcome of all this 'entrepreneury' is aimed.

It's what's seen at the end of it all, that those who aren't entrepreneurs must use as a basis for coming to a conclusion on the worth or otherwise of any enterprise.

I reckon you don't need to look further than things like going on £3 for a pint of fluid that's probably 95% water, and going on £15 for an aluminium disc covered in pimples that probably cost about 7p to produce.

I'd like to think I'm not daft enough to believe that everybody who has the balls, intelligence, flamboyance, whatever, to exploit a talent with which they were fortunate enough to be born, are also power mad nutters who enjoy generating 'mean spirited cynicism'.

I'd even believe that the generation of this attitude, if it occurs, is purely inadvertant, but as far as I'm concerned, there's not a lot going on these days that encourages me to believe that it's all sweetness and light in the business world.

I believe it's the mean spirited cynicism that seems to be behind a lot of business decisions, that generates mean spirited cynicism among people on whom these decisions impinge.

Or is this just another of the perpetual whinges of another of life's born losers ? :-{E}

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

I consider myself an entrepreneur.

Can anyone spell 'offshore banking'?

I will now maintain a discrete silence and get prepared for the knock at the door...

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

You would have thought that the billions saved by the death of the evil QM and the release of her army of doctors would have been enough to improve the health service AND reduce taxes.

-- Anonymous, April 19, 2002

Nah, there's still an army of Royals that need our fulsome financial support

-- Anonymous, April 20, 2002

An "army" of 2(!!!!!) - the Queen and Prince Phillip. (Circa £8.5m - most of which is salaries for the royal household - all of whom pay tax of course.) The fact of the matter is that the cost of the monarchy is absolute chickenfeed. (Especially in contrast to what a republic would cost)

Until recently I had little interest in this issue, but a little research, plus (I regret to say) the intellectual poverty of the anti- royalist arguments I've read in this forum so far (Gawd bless 'em) are beginning to turn my opinion from indifference to reasonably pro monarchy.

-- Anonymous, April 21, 2002