T-Max 400 rated at 1600 or T-Max 3200 rated at 1600?

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I was wondering whether T-Max 400 rated at 1600 or T-Max 3200 rated at 1600 would be better to use in low-life situations in terms of:

1) Contrast? 2) Tonality? 3) Shadow details? and most importantly 4) Latitude of exposure?

I'm rather used to Tri-X rated at 1600 but T-Max is less forgiving so I am wondering about its potential use. After all, T-Max has smoother grain than Tri-X in many ways.

I was looking through Selgado's book Workers and I was wondering when Selgado chooses to use Tri-X vs. T-Max (his films of choice). I suspect that when he wants a grainier look, T-Max 3200 is preferable over Tri-X pushed?

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), April 16, 2002

Answers

It would be of great utility if you could illustrate your dilemma with an image from your archives.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), April 16, 2002.

Hi Alfie,

I haven't tried doing either yet but someone posted this link to NG a little while ago. Most of the shots featured are using T- Max3200 rated at 1600. I like the smooth tones it produced in this feature.

Cheers, Angus

-- Angus Macniven (angus_macniven@hotmail.com), April 16, 2002.


"...low-life situations...."

HEY! I resemble that!

Seriously consider Delta 3200. Having said that, given the two choices you present, I'd go with the TM3200 for a true 1600. If "most importantly" latitude of exposure is the criteria, the TM3200 would win. It will also have more shadow detail than TM400. The contrast and tonality, and to some minor extent even the grain, can be controlled with development.

Speaking of development, if you're planning on using a commercial lab for TM3200 at any speed... forget it. I've never seen a lab do it justice (or at least any of the labs I've tried here in FL). The usual result is chemical fogging thru the sproket holes that results in light streaks in the images.

Also, TM3200 is very red sensitive - so if the lighting is incandescent, or firelite you'll find it does better than TM400.

The Delta 3200, for me at least, is finer grained, and is better handled by commercial labs (no chemical fogging). The contrast, speed and range are close to the TM3200, but I've not developed any of it at home, so I can't give you a direct A/B comparison there. It is a real decent low light film however.

-- Charles (cbarcellona@telocity.com), April 16, 2002.


Sorry John but I haven't tried any of these setups so basically I will experiment this weekend up in NYC with both then.

Thanks for the NG links. I really like the T-Max 3200 at 1600 with its shadow renditions in tricky lighting. No doubt but the blowups of those same photos would have been more revealing than the rather small jpg's :(

T-Max is rather nice no doubt.

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), April 16, 2002.


Alfie: Saldago, I think, uses the same lab in Paris that HCB used for his developing and printing. Personally, I think that Paris has the best labs in the world, with New York and San Francisco a far second. Philly isn't within walking distance. And that makes more of a difference than what film you use. If I were you, I'd probably stick to one of the C41 b&w films until you get set up to develop your own negs. Personally, I swear by Xtol and T-Max. Until you're in a position to control the process don't even attempt to compare films. Leitz M6, Elmar-M 50mm 1:2.8, Leica UVa, T-Max 400 in Xtol 1:1

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), April 16, 2002.


Can anyone shed light on whether the 3200 shot at 1600 should be "pulled" (under-processed) or processed normal, thus overdeveloping? I had the impression that it shoiuld be processed normal, thereby gibing you a more dense neg with more shadow detail. Am I on the right track?

Cheers, Pat.

-- Pat Dunsworth (pdunsworth@aryarch.com), April 16, 2002.


I haven't used the tmax 3200 since the ilford stuff came out -- but, as I recall, the tmax 3200 is really a 1200-1600 speed for "normal" exposure/development, whatever that is, and it says so on the kodak pages (used to, anyway). there are developing times for 2400 and 3200, and it does nicely, but best at the lower speed. most develop charts give all speeds -- or you are supposed to experiment and fumble yourself. In essence, 3200 is one stop push on a film that tolerates it well.

-- Lacey Smith (lacsmith@bellsouth.net), April 16, 2002.

I think T-Max P3200 is actually an ISO 800 film. Thus, 1600 is already a one-stop push. Better shadow detail can be expected compared to pushing T-Max 400 two stops. The grain will be evident on uniform areas, but will tend to dissolve into the texture of the subject in detailed areas.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), April 16, 2002.

I truly believe that it's best to test the films you use to decide what's right for you. There are so many variables, and the processing of the film is the biggest.

Having said that, and assuming that you can process it yourself, I would go with the TMZ 3200. It 's nominal speed is 1000. So even at 1600, it's a bit of a push, but I find the results are wonderful at 800 and 1600. You sould test to come up with your own processing times, but in my experience, the tonal range and shadow detail are incredible at these speeds.

I shoot Tri-X in Rodinal for semi-low light, and T-MAX 3200 at various speeds as needed for really low light. Seems like I rarely shoot in decent light. ;)

T-MAX 3200 has a very different look from it's slower cousin, T-MAX 400. I've never liked T-Max 400 because I find the grain, although small, sort of mushy and unsharp when enlarged. Of course that's just my personal opinion. I find that Tri-X grain more closely matches that of the T-MAX 3200. Not just because it's grainly, but because of the character of the grain. That's why you can't easily tell when Salgado shoots 3200 or when it's Tri-x.

-- Noah Addis (naddis@mindspring.com), April 16, 2002.


So sorry, in my post above, I meant (obviously) Salgado.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), April 16, 2002.


FWIW, some of the folks at Modernage in NYC suggest TMAX 3200, shot at 1600, and then processed "normally." I assume that means following the development times for 3200, but I didn't ask.

I often shoot TMAX 3200 at 1600 and have Modernage process it without any special instructions. I have also shot it at 3200. Though my sample is limited, shooting at 1600 seems to give a slightly richer tone, but that might just be my imagination.

This is TMAX 3200 at 1600: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=663415

This is TMAX 3200 at 3200: http://www.photo.net/photodb/photo?photo_id=663459

Maybe there's a difference, maybe not.

RE: Salgado and grain, I get them impression his grainy effects come from Rodinal and grade of paper--not so much from the choice of film.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), April 16, 2002.


Not precisely on topic, but if you would like to see a shot taken with Neopan 1600 which I rated at EI 800 go here: http://web-graphics.com/steinerphoto/000415.html#000415 and click on the red photo title.

-- Ollie Steiner (violindevil@yahoo.com), April 16, 2002.

I do carry Tmax3200 for real low-light night-shots and if a large grain is desirable. But for normal low-light fotography I have changed to Neopan 1600. I even did some portraits with it. Great film with very low grain and excellent contrast for its speed. If I come in my photostore the people put 3 roles on the counter by default.

ReinierV

-- ReinierV (rvlaam@xs4all.nl), April 17, 2002.


T-max 3200 'IS' a 1600 ISO film IMHO. Get it deved at 3200 but rate it at 1600. I would'nt bother with trying to push TMY to 1600 if you need any shadow detail - you won't get any.

-- John Griffin (john.griffin@millerhare.com), April 17, 2002.

Try Ilford Delta 400 pushed to 1600. Here's an example.

-- Chris Chen (Wash., DC) (furcafe@NOSPAMcris.com), April 17, 2002.


Alfie:

For having tried, I can answer that it's better to use TMAX 3200 rated 1600 than 400 rated 1600

First, the tonality is better. The contrast is greater too as you are exploiting a 3200 film with a 1000 ASA nominal speed pushed to 1600. Just use a good light measure cell as in a Minox 35 or a M6 or R7.

Don't forget that Salgado has used a film TriX because it was available, we have the Tmax3200.

It's quite often I have my Minox 35 with Tmax 3200 rated 1600. I don't have anything under my hand to show but it's pleasant.

Quit thinking, have fun. X.

-- Xavier d'Alfort (hot_billexf@hotmail.com), April 17, 2002.


Ilford Delta 3200 rated at 1000.

-- Andrey Vorobyov (AndreyVorobyov@yahoo.com), April 18, 2002.

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