This question is about M lenses (and possibly bodies).

Preamble:

Maybe it's just me, but I would only consider buying the new M bodies with the full USA warranty, since they are complex mechanical instruments (more chances for mechanical screwups during break-in period).

Trolling some of the websites (Photovillage.com for example) I noticed a substantial difference in the USA vs. Gray market pricing. A lens consists of very few moving parts, precision made, so I rightly or wrongly conclude that the chances of a defect are much smaller than with a body. (The gray market lenses do have a warranty, though less comprehensive than the USA.)

Question:

Do any of you buy your lenses as gray market ones? If so, why. And if you only buy USA, then why?

I'm not taking a survey, just trying to understand if I'm missing anything in my thought process. Also, it might save money, so that always helps.

Thanks very much as always for all your thoughtful input.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), April 15, 2002

Answers

Vikram,

I never bought an new lens, nor a new body. I am very happy with the second hand equipment and I never experienced a disappointment. It can save you alot of money.

-- Eric Kragtwijk (e.kragtwijk@hccnet.nl), April 15, 2002.

I bought a lens "grey", i.e. from an authorized Leica dealer in Hong Kong. The lens comes w/ international warranty which the US distributors have to honor, but usually they try to get around it, but don't let that stop you. I saved at least $400 over the US price.

Otherwise, the strongest reason to by US is to maintain a distributor network. If everyone just went and inspected the equipment at your local dealer and then ordered it online/grey mkt, there would soon be no more local dealers. I try to do my best to keep my favorite ones alive :-)

cheers,

pat

-- pat (modlabs@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

I would and will probably buy my next item from Delta International, or s/h. I virtually never buy new. If I am unlucky and something goes wrong then that is the risk I take. I only buy from places I trust. So far in 15+ years I have never had a problem and I have saved a packet.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), April 15, 2002.

I am new to Leica, but this idea of grey market has been in the economy for a long time in many industries. I have always wondered why the authorized dealers have to charge significantly (ie enough to influence buying decisions)more than the grey market dealers. If Leica is manufacturing all of its products to the same standard, ie not dumping seconds onto the market, then why do they feel any premium in cost is justified for the Passport guarantee. I deal with Precision in Austin, TX who is a fully authorized dealer offering Passport warranties, and have bought some Nikon stuff overseas during travels of past at a great savings, but the manufacturer sold it to someone somewhere at some price.? I am confused obviously.

-- Jim Lemmons (jlemmons@speicaltylens.com), April 15, 2002.

You are on the right track about bodies vs lenses. Generally any problems with a lens will be evident right away, like dirt inside, stiff focusing, etc., typical of Leica's exemplary QC. In that case you can send them back to where you got them for an exchange. Bodies may suffer from initial QC lapses also, but they can also conk out later on. But even with lenses, the USA passport is a very attractive feature if you are fumble-fingered or take your equipment into hostile environments. The international warranty does not cover damage, the USA Passport does...it's more like an insurance policy than just a warranty.

Be aware that the international warranty is only for Leicas purchased from an *authorized* dealer. If you buy from an authorized dealer in Hong Kong, the international warranty will be honored by Leica USA. However if you buy from an unauthorized dealer (such as a gray marketer in the US), you are basically the *2nd* owner, (the gray marketer is the first), and therefore you would not be able to send the equipment directly to Leica USA and have coverage under the int'l warranty. Beside that, I have found that savings are much greater buying direct from overseas as opposed to a US graymarketer. Given the propensity for like-new Leica gear to change hands frequently, my choice (aside from USA new) after direct buy from Hong Kong would be secnd-hand, with US-based gray-marketers a distant third.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), April 15, 2002.

I buy insurance for all my camera equipment (about $7000 worth) for $85 a year through State Farm (my car, and everything else except health insurance company). This covers accidental loss, theft, fire, and breaking... I look for the best price and don't worry about these kinds of things.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

If Leica is manufacturing all of its products to the same standard, ie not dumping seconds onto the market...

Don't be mistaken - a Leica sales representantive disclosed "in confidence" (and to my surprise) that there is such a thing as "B" merchandise. This is not official, though. And in any case of complaint they will have to honor international warranty.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), April 15, 2002.

Hmn...I have bought similar poor quality from different mail order sources (B&H, Tamarkin), so I wonder if the gray market is mainly where they let that stuff go? Although, with B&H, I seem to have had some bad luck getting what I consider really nice lenses. I'm not being overly-picky either, I'm talking about scratches on elements! Interesting bit of info Lutz.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 15, 2002.

Lutz. I doubt this is the case, simply because when a lens or camera is being manufactured, no one knows at that point where it will actually end up, and as you say, Leica has to honor whatever willbe the warranty applicable to the particular item. I think your representative may just have wanted to discourage you and others from buying gray market. I personally have bought Leica USA and gray market over the years, and the only problem I ever has was with a Leica USA lens that was replaced free of charge undre the passport. No problems ever with the new in box gray items.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), April 15, 2002.

I guess I have to take the opposite tack here. I believe that the USA passport system, while expensive, is smart in the long run. While lenses have fewer parts and therefore, according to the conventional wisdom, should not "break down", guess what: they do and usually at the most inopportune of times. The passport gives you piece of mind and has already paid for itself over the past few years in my case. Think of it like medical insurance...You do not buy the insurance for the little doctor visits... but for the catastrophic hospitalizations. In Leica terms, the repair of a lens or body is far more expensive than the differential between Passport and Gray.

-- Albert Knapp MD (albertknappmd@mac.com), April 15, 2002.

I forgot to mention, all lenses I bought were US. So, I don't have that much confidence that a US vs. Gray will give me something better from US.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 15, 2002.

I have bought lenses new USA and grey. I purchased a new body with the Passport warranty and needed it. In the future I would purchase lenses grey and bodies with Passport. FWIW

-- Mark A. Johnson (logical1@catholic.org), April 15, 2002.

Lutz,

What you heard from the Leica rep is really troubling. Leica should only put its name on first quality products. If Leica is putting its name on merchandise that does not meet its own standards of quality then the Leica brand is debased. It seems to me this risks the entire reputation of the company and I hope the Leica rep you spoke with was mistaken.

-- David Enzel (dhenzel@vei.net), April 15, 2002.

I've bought grey market and overseas southeast asia sold leicas and lenses.... have had nooooo problem...

-- gary brown (drdad1111@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.

Vikram, I'm sure that all of us would love to get the best possible price on any Leica product whether it be bodies or lenses. Leica USA exists as the sole authorized debtributor of Leica products for the USA, and as such is required to maintain an inventory (paying all required duties, customs fees as well as shipping costs from Germany), set up distribution throughout its territory, advertising, and provide after sales service for its products.

I view buying new gray market items the same as used items in mint condition understanding the risk I take when buying anything preowned. If I buy a preowned item in mint condition, the same circumstances exist.

Most gray market companies are filling orders and don't have to live with you on a daily basis. Leica USA does.

With the US dollar being as strong as it is, gray market companies can offer these items at a very attractive price relative to Leica USA.

I love a deal just like anyone and frankly, I have never had a problem with any of the newer Leica items that I have purchased, but when the price of a gray market item or preowned mint item is within spitting distance of a Leica USA product, I buy Leica USA.

-- Whit Haydon (whaydon@bellsouth.net), April 15, 2002.

"In Leica terms, the repair of a lens or body is far more expensive than the differential between Passport and Gray."

Albert. I assure you this statement is quite incorrect. Have you taken a look at the differences between "New Leica USA" and "Unusued in Sealed Box" (which means gray) prices on Don Chatterton's website? They range from about $ 300 to as high as $ 700 for NEW Leica M lenses. A few examples. These are not trivial differences and are generally greater than any likely repairs unless you drop the lens off a cliff. I'm sure you can find lower new USA prices, but you can also find lower gray market prices. The differences remain.

90/2 APO ASPH $ 1995 NIB with USA, 1550 NIB without USA 50/1.0 Nocti $ 2795 with USA, 2100 without USA 35/1.4 ASPH $ 2485 with USA, 1830 without USA

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), April 16, 2002.

Lutz,

What you have been told is rubbish. There is no such thing as B grade Leica equipment. Your source is trying the old scare tactic. That person is not truthful. I cannot be more direct than that. Tell him that I said so.

Let me explain: There is only one way to get Leica equipment from the Leica factory and that is through a Leica agent. Every single Leica comes from Leica through a Leica agent.

Any grey market Leica is originally supplied through a Leica agent. There is no other way. (Sorry, Erwin gets a few bits directly).

I have personally seen invoices from a Leica agent diredctly to a non-authorised dealer for grey market stock. I have bought from that dealer and the cameras/lenses are perfect and come with the full Leica factory warranty.

The real problem is price fixing by Leica agents and inflated prices by some dealers. Of course, if the dealers are being ripped off by some agents, then the dealers cannot give us a decent price.

Thankfully, in some countries, the dealers have the guts/power to stand up to the greedy agents.

I must calm down, it will pass.

-- wayne murphy (w.murphy@powerup.com.au), April 16, 2002.

I am with the others,including Eliot. Unless you are persistantly dropping lenses then very often it makes good old monetary sense to save $300-&700 for a lens and buy it from a reputable gray market dealer. Maybe I will regret it next time, but I doubt it. If something goes wroing you can get it repaired under the importer's warranty (and they do give you one), or you can pay out yourself and send it direct to Leica - it will still probably cost less or on a par with the amount originally saved. With respect to buying out of the country (such as Hong Koing), my worry is always that you are liable to customs duties, so there is not good price transparency.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), April 16, 2002.

Thank you all for sharing your opinions. I'm a "buy and hold" kind of person when it comes to equipment, so a USA lens would be the way to go (and the only thing I've done so far), but the price differential can sometimes make the grey market lens appear more seductive.

I still can't fathom people who spend thousands on Leica hardware and then put it on the market within a few months at a substantial loss. This doesn't apepar to happen with any other camera brand. Probably says something about why these people buy the equipment than about the equipment itself.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), April 16, 2002.

In addition to the information on "B" merchandise I passed on, I will give you the background story. A couple of months ago I purchased a 35 lux asph "new in the box" from a Hong Kong dealer with an apparently good reputation (considering his ebay status - he's got an ebay shop). I paid $ 1580 for it - a real low price that made me jump on his offer. I added $ 35 for priority shipment to Switzerland. Plus 7% import tax. The lens arrived safely about a week after my online purchase. E-mails were fast and efficient. To my disappointment the focus was sticky (some of you might recall my thread in regard). I complained, the dealer was very embarrased. He repeatedly apologized for any inconvenience but persisted, that he just couldn't believe that the lens wasn't perfect... Anyway, he offered to call the whole deal off and to rembourse me (except the Swiss import tax, of course...) if I sent the lens back to him. I was reluctant to let the lens go - the price had been more than right, I had paid tax and there was this international warranty card, wasn't there...? Moreover, I didn't need to use the lens fast. So I decided to send it to Leica Switzerland for a repair or exchange, given the fact that I had already been in personal touch with the Leica sales manager Switzerland before. The lens was accepted for inspection and repair, given that I could provide all papers. The fact that I bought the lens in Hong Kong never was a matter of discussion. As Leica Switzerland doesn't have the tools necessary to adjust focus mechanics on the lenses, they sent it to Germany for an overhaul. Which took six weeks... After six weeks I had the lux back at no charge at all. Leica Switzerland hadn't touched nor tested it after the repair, though. So, to my further disappointment, the focus still wasn't half as smooth as I held necessary for professional use. I complained about it which led to a thorough personal telephone call with the forementioned sales manager in the course of which I was told, that a) there are more or less strict manufacturing tolerances, and that, if the lens had been repaired by Leica Solms, it now was within those tolerances - and b) there is such a thing as B merchandise, closer to the edges of tolerance... I insisted that a Leica lens - even if purchased at 20% less than the Zürich City shop prices - still costs more than three times as much as a Voigtlaender (not to speak of other brands) and that I expect the focus to work at least as smoothly as with those others. And the lens I had back from Solms didn't. Furthermore I told him that B merchandise is nothing that I wish to live with even if Leica thinks they can sell it to customers less demanding. The sales manager kindly offered to take care of the case and asked me to send the lens back to him for a closer inspection. He also offerd to lend me an equivalent lux for the time it might take to have mine eventually replaced by Leica Solms. A couple of days later I had a mint demo lux for my personal use with a perfectly smooth focus. I was then asked, if I could accept an exchange against just this sample. I replied, that I had bought the new 35 lux asph at a low price in order to afford doing some testing to find out if I really appreciated the very specific optical and aesthetical characteristics of which (thanks to some of your posts!) I had read. So that in case I decided that I didn't like them and wanted to sell the lens I could do so at close to no loss. With a mint but not "as new" lens in exchange I would be more likely to lose some of my investment... At this point the salesman signalled that he wasn't ready to go any further. The case is still open... Funny thing: This was the first *new* lens of about ten Leica lenses I have bought or traded so far. All others were pre-owned (and therefore checked!) and perfectly in order.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), April 16, 2002.

Lutz,

I've lived in the USA and bought grey and USA Leica lenses there. I've lived in Hong Kong and bought my Summicrons there, and these would be 'grey' by USA market definition. As far as I can tell, there is no difference. The USA price reflects the price of an insurance policy (the Passport warranty) tacked on to the gear. And the price of the policy far exceeds its cost, given that there is no competition.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 16, 2002.

Hi Mani,

I'm ready to believe this, too. And I didn't say that grey market = B. But buying unchecked merchandise (i.e. by a user, not a manufacturer) from overseas leaves you with the risk that in case you are not satisfied you can't just go back to the shop and have it exchanged without finacial loss (at least when buying from my country, where import tax applies). Even if the fault wasn't the seller's but due to the tolerances' low end... Nevertheless, my intention was not to demonize overseas shopping (how could I...?;o), just giving the background to the information I passed on. Cheers.

-- Lutz Konermann (lutz@konermann.net), April 17, 2002.

Lutz,

Actually, in many, if not most countries, you do not have any right of return of goods to the shop. If you have a good relationship with the shopkeeper you might be able to, but by and large return privileges taken for granted in European and North American countries simply don't exist elsewhere.

Trust me, we all look at the goods very, very carefully when buying over here in Asia.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), April 17, 2002.

My US 35 lux has slightly "catchy" focusing, meaning it's not buttery smooth out of the box. However, this characteristic has changed into something more smooth, but not as smooth as my 75 lux. Anyway, to be honest, I went through one previous example (yes I know I'm picky) that was a US lens as well, and showed the same catchiness. I've also read others having this characteristic, but that it goes away after some use. Perhaps it is part of the deisgn/build of most 35 luxes? It is a bit annoying, but then again I haven't used my lens a lot yet such as a pro would, so perhaps it will break in even more.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), April 17, 2002.