As everyone here may already know, M3's have older standard shutter speeds. Modern shutter speeds, for example, are 1/15, 1/30, 1/60, 1/125 etc.......M3's, on the other hand, have speeds that are 1/10, 1/25, 1/50, 1/100. Please be patient with me as I ramble on here as I'm new to Leica photography. With LF older lens, I have always considered the speeds equal reasoning the difference not of great importance.

However with low light shooting at slow shutter speeds I have noticed that using a 35mm lens at f2 and 1/25 with 400 ISO one can shoot just about anything. In a sense, it seems to improve the relative speed of the f2 lens. Here's the question! Why did the industry ever change the shutter speeds in the first place. Why don't they make slower shutter speeds or at least give people the option? My Canon offers such speeds on auto exposure. Just a thought folks.

-- Martin (amloft@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002

Answers

Martin,

Only early M3's have the shutter speeds you indicate. In 1957, M3's were changed to have shutter speeds with geometric sequence.

Are you asking why M3's haven't got shutter speeds slower than 1 second? If so, remember that the M3 has a mechanically timed shutter. Your Canon probably has a vertically running, electrically timed shutter.

If you would like to use shutter speeds slower than 1 second, choose B (bulb) and hold the shutter release down while estimating the time (one thousand and one, one thousand and two, etc.).

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), March 31, 2002.

What I've noticed is that I can shoot at 1/25 at f2 under extremely low-light situations and get very good results with very little blurring due to slow shutter speeds. I was just wondering if it's just my imagination or does the 1/25 or 1/50 shutter speeds actually give my f2 more effective speed.

Regarding other shutter speeds, yes I know thet I have many slower shutter speeds. It seems that the older system seems to match lens better. What's the old rule about matching the shutter speeds to the lens lenght. Thanks.

-- Martin (amloft@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002.

Martin, I'm not sure whether I entirely get your drift here. You say that you are new to Leica so is it possible that you're just getting the well known ability of the rangefinder user to handhold slower speeds than is possible with an SLR, or am I going off on the wrong tack? I find myself often using speeds such as 1/15th, and have hand held at 1/2th with an acceptable result.

It is theoretically true that using 1/25th gives a touch more exposure than 1/30th, but its likely to be in the order of 1/6th of a stop or less so shouldn't be obvious. you should also take into account that because the M3 shutter is mechanically governed the speeds are from time to time nominal, so your 1/25th may in reality be anywhere from 1/20th to 1/30th!!

-- Tim Franklin (tim_franklin@mac.com), March 31, 2002.

Tim, I think you've got a point about rangefinder shooting. I have shot LF on a tripod for the past decade and almost giving up on 35mm. So my low-light shooting was done in the 80's with a SLR. Thanks.

-- Martin (amloft@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002.

I'd be amazed if there was a consistent measurable difference between 1/30 and 1/25 on the old mechanical shutters anyway.

Silly question.

-- Charles (c.mason@uaf.edu), March 31, 2002.

Any time I get a new camera, I get the shutter speeds tested. You might be surprised at how far off the stated speeds the shutter is. The change to geometrically progressing speeds was an improvement, though. The top speeds of my M4-P are: 1/250= 1/200 1/500= 1/350 1/1000= 1/553, so, you have to take stated speeds with a grain of salt, whether it is the old style of shutter speed arrangement or new.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), March 31, 2002.

1) RF cameras, and those with horizontal cloth shutters in particular, are more hand-holdable at equivalent speeds than equivalent-format SLRs - on average.

2) The quirky early M3 speeds will let in 20% more light than the modern equivalents of 1/30 and 1/60 - and I think in that narrow range the 20% addition light has more visual effect that the (theoretical) 20% additional camera shake. I regularly 'cheat' exposures from 1/60 down to the sync speed (1/50 - a holdover from the original M3 speeds) to get the extra 1/3 stop of light. So yes they WILL make your f/2 into an effective f/1.8 - or your 35 f/1.4 into a 35 f/1.2 Noct (!!!) 8^)x

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 31, 2002.

Andy,

Remind me not to ask you to do my taxes, with the way you handle numbers...

;-)

Charles

-- Charles (c.mason@uaf.edu), March 31, 2002.

These speeds were not "quirky" at all, merely the European standard ones, found on other cameras as well. They were later changed to the international standard. Screwmount Leicas have even more unusual shutter speeds: eg, 20, 30, 40, 60, 100, 200, 500, and 1000 plus a separate slow speed dial. But that's not all! Get hold of an early pre WWII lens. Apertures were European too: 2, 2.2, 3.2, 4.5, 6.3, 9, 12.5. Takes getting used to. Why the change? I don't know, but standardisation and faster film would have had something to do with it. When your M3 was new, 200 ASA (not ISO) was fast. Look at the film speed dial. It probably only goes to 200.

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), March 31, 2002.

I have an old Linhof Schneider Tele-Xenar (for large-format) that has the shutter speed sequence of . . . 1/5, 1/10, 1/25, 1/50, 1/100, 1/200, and 1/400.

Still pretty amused by the assertion that 1/25 at f2 with 400-speed film is "extremely low light"--don't know how many hundreds of photos I've shot at light levels 3 or 4 stops below that.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), April 01, 2002.

Charles; Actually - the way I handle numbers - you NEED me to do your taxes!

You just don't want me to testify in court afterwards!!

(OK, OK so the 35 'lux only moves up to f/1.5 Nokton status, not f/1.2 Noctilux.) 8^(

Actually my theory is this - The M3's quirky speeds cover the range from 1s to 1/1000 with one less setting. Leica was already thinking ahead, and this was how they planned to save room on the shutter speed dial for the AUTO setting (expected introduction - 1958).

Once they realized that it would take forty-eight years - not 4 - to achieve that dream - THEN they caved in and adopted the ISO (or JCII or whatever they are) standard shutter speed range.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), April 01, 2002.

Martin. Welcome to the world of Leica. Bud is right. Only the earliest M3s have the European shutter speed sequence. All other M cameras have the internationally agreed upon shutter speed sequence.

If you want longer timed shutter speeds than 1 sec without having to time them yourself on bulb, you will have to buy an M7. On AUTO, the M7 will time exposures as long as 32 sec (actually I think a little longer than that is possible). On manual, it will give you up to 4 sec. But you better have the camera on a tripod.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), April 01, 2002.

"So yes they WILL make your f/2 into an effective f/1.8 - or your 35 f/1.4 into a 35 f/1.2 Noct (!!!) 8^)x " -- Andy Piper March 31, 2002. I think this is what I was trying to get at and I'm glad it just wasn't just my imagination getting the best of me. 1/25 at f2 under low light situations will get more silver on the neg than 1/30 at f2. If it's 20% thank you very much 40 year old M3. Thanks all.

-- Martin (amloft@yahoo.com), April 02, 2002.