Reading what I have on various threads and others makes me realise that a country I recently visited must be an almost perfect Utopia.

There are few private cars but the city streets are busy with very cheap taxis, buses and bicycles. There is almost no industrial pollution and just about everyone cooks on renewable energy (wood) stoves.

Diets are mostly vegetable but meat is enjoyed by those who buy it.

Home schooling is the custom with more than half the children getting their education in the home.

Women take family raising seriously and in fact it is almost unheard of for a woman to leave her children to take daily employment. Family life is a big issue with several generations living together in one extended family unit.

Very few people waste time watching TV or reading fashion magazines although the majority of people do attempt to stay informed via short wave radio and whatever newspapers they can find.

Religion is a big part of daily life affecting just about every aspect of ordinary existence.

Private gun ownership is very popular and most families take care of their own security without running to the police for every little thing. In fact it is rare to see police except for those directing traffic at busy city intersections.

Farmers, even small family units, make more money than government workers are paid!

There is no income tax collected!

Well that's how it was when I was there in year 2000...

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 25, 2002

Answers

Ahhhh...Afghanistan?

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 25, 2002.

So my wife asks me the other day "Where's Utopia"? I tell her. "I don't know where Mytopia is. I've been looking for it for a couple a days". Maybe I should ask John Hill, 'eh? ;-)

-- John in S. IN (jdoofus@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

Puerto Rica ?

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), March 26, 2002.

I opened this thread because I am repeatedly amazed by people who appear to believe that a modern society can be improved by dismantling it.

How many times have I read how great it would be to have little or no central government, law and order handled locally, distruction of public education system, etc etc?

But does anyone really appreciate what such a society inevitably becomes?

Doreen is right, yes it was Afghanistan under the Taleban I was describing but hardly MY idea of Utopia..

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 26, 2002.

Guess you left out woman have very little value in there society .The must be covered , can be killed for any number of reasons.Family raising is so serious because so few live to adult hood.Very few people have money for tv or magazines.Income tax , who makes any money ?

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

Patty, I am not sure you understand what I am trying to say.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 26, 2002.

Im wondering if the society would be differant,,if the "Utopia" had fertile ground,, where one could grow his own food and survive

-- Stan (sopal@net-pert.com), March 26, 2002.

I doubt it. I read somewhere that the customs in Arab countries came about because of raids. They started keeping the women and younger children in the inner rooms at night, while the men and older boys took the more exposed rooms because they were stronger and were less desirable as slaves. The custom of hiding ones women sprang from this.

-- Terri (hooperterri@prodigy.net), March 26, 2002.

Maybe I did not John , sorry I will hush up now.

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

Patty, I am trying to encourage people to think about just what is likely to happen if we dismantle our society without a clear vision of where we are trying to go. Now no one that I recall has said that is what they want but several have written opinions which tend towards partial dismantling.

Reduction of government is one thing but almost total elimination of all government services (as happened in Afghanistan) is quite another.

Home schooling may be great (and probably is) for the individual family but what happens when all the schools are closed?

I have seen comments about the evils of social welfare, public health care and whatever. Of course there was none of that in Afghanistan either.

Religion is no doubt a great comfort for very, very many people but what happens when a country is run strictly according to a holy book?

Even living off the grid is breaking down a country's infrastructure. Has anyone on here been to DPRK (aka North Korea)?

Then of course there is the thing about guns, home security, etc etc. Plenty of guns in Afghanistan..

If you did not understand it is likely my fault for not making my self clear.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 26, 2002.

John , trust me it was my fault .Brain fog today .

-- Patty {NY State} (fodfarms@hotmail.com), March 26, 2002.

I believe that would be me that John might be speaking of. Somehow I do have a clear vision of where we are going though. I'm going back---way back--back before the Constitution was ratified. I want independent states. A place for everyone. That is everyone who wishes to live in an orderly manner without controllers. If you cannot police yourself than there is no place for you.

I know it will be a bloody mess. The world has never born witness to the carnage of the type in all of history. I cannot even utter the words or the stereotypes that need to flee. Just a hint--if you ever worked for the government than I suggest you grap anything that floats and find an ocean. That includes anything from Animal control to federal zoologist. See I am very clear on what I `want !

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), March 27, 2002.

Just as soon as you chase those folks into the sea a local war-lord will spring up to enslave you and your family.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 27, 2002.

Forgive me John but there has not been born on the face of this earth any entity that has the power to enslave me. I always have had the right to choose, it is a God given right, to stand and kill my oppressors.

Do you realize how weak minded your statement is ? Your telling me that you do not possess the courage, strength, or intelligence to defend your locality, family or even yourself. How sad to live like that. It must be like dying everyday.

-- Joel Rosen (JoelnBecky@webtv.net), March 27, 2002.

John, I appreciate you trying to get folks to think things through. However, there comes a time when you must tear it down and think it over. It's like divorce. If a marriage becomes so horrific and one party is being completely subjugated against their will they will eventually rise up and take back their freedom. They may not know where they are going, they may not have a roof over their heads, but they know that literally anything is better than continuing in the fraud and lending credibility to the status of the oppressive partner. People have to be free. They'll take a lot, but when it becomes too oppressive they will rise up...Americans just have a lower tolerance level for oppression. Well, a lot of us.

Health care, SS, government training centers, all of this stuff is just a distraction to keep the bread and circus show going. If the government didn't stick it's nose into our lives we would be better able to care for ourselves, because we would know we HAD to. Also it might be helpful to not have a government that poisons you and causes degenerative diseases. It's just so much easier to control people when they aren't really healthy.

I don't agree with the entire vision that Joel has, but it would still be better than what we currently have. No matter what the circumstance you have to guard against those with power seeking more of it. You give them a certain amount of reign to do their job and require accountability and stay eternally vigilant. You don't give the employee your entire financial portfolio and let them spend your wealth however they like and tell you how to run your company. That is in essence what we have done here...in the name of government handouts we've abrogated our God given rights. I never gave mine up personally and resent the hell out them being taken from me without my permission.

-- Doreen (bisquit@here.com), March 27, 2002.

Your are so right Doreen, I would encourage people to think through what they are proposing.

Am I to believe that the USA, of which so much has been written and so much blood spilt is now populated by a disenfranchised peasantry waving pitchforks at the manor house?

If one is unhappy with the way your sewing club is run the answer is to either leave or get voted onto the management comittee, packing your gun and having a shootout at the AGM is not answer, the same with government.

Joel, yours is a marvelous vision, but I believe (unfortunately) that is impractical as long as there are humans involved. Surely you know what has happened in various countries of Africa (Somalia for one), just about every country that was ever a Belgian colony and of course Afghanistan?

P.S. Joel, please cut the crap about my intestinal fortitude and cerebral processes.

-- john hill (john@cnd.co.nz), March 27, 2002.