Okay, yesterday my marriage counselor told me privately to contact a group on domestic violence for men. Today's "Dear Abby" mentioned Safe4All.org -- so I gotta' say, the timing is amazing for me.

I have been married for less than a year, but I have known my wife for 16 years, since we were high school sweethearts. In the intervening years, my wife was in a very abusive relationship with her previous husband. Her mother was an alcoholic and abusive as well.

Since we've been 'back' together, she has punched, bit, kicked and choked me. Once she even ran across the room, grabbed me by my throat and threw me backwards out of the chair. In December she attempted suicide. Since December, she tried to reign in her temper, and did a fairly good job -- mostly it was because I 'follow the rules.'

In the past week, she has really lost it again -- I think mostly because I insisted on seeing our marriage counselor privately once in a while (she does so every week).

This week, she litterally body-slammed me while I lay on the couch in the dark (with no warning), and later tried to jump out of our car while we were driving.

I am getting the usual apology letters now, and I simply don't know what to do.

My question is: Don't any of them ever change?

-- Anonymous, March 22, 2002

Answers

Mark, please ignore the last posting. I'm sorry you had to even read it. He may mean well, but I don't think it's what you needed to hear, and I think he could have said the same message much more tactfully.

My experience has been that very few abusers really do change. The way you can tell is by looking at results instead of what they're saying. They say they want to change, but do they consistently go to counseling? Do they ask you how you feel about what they do? Do you actually see in their behavior that anything is different?

You may already be aware of it, but many people talk about a cycle of abuse, in which the abusive behavior is following by an "I'm sorry" phase. This is when you feel bad for wanting to leave, and you begin to have hope that maybe it can work. This phase can sometimes be even kind of nice.

Please join us in the safe-support online mailing list. Directions for joining are on the safe4all.org webpage, and the people there are very supportive and can offer some very good, practical advice.

-- Anonymous, March 23, 2002

get away from her. cut off all contact forever. start living a life for yourself. her problems are her own.

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2002

Thanks to both the writers who responded (including the 'grow some balls remark' -- I'd like to follow up here to my original statement/question.

I don't think of myself as 'abused' -- I see violence coming from my wife, but I'm not afraid of her. I'm bigger, and unless she stabs me or shoots me -- I'm unlikely to be really injured.

The thing that makes me (and perhaps others like me) resist the sound advice of others to simply "walk away" - is this: How do you know when it's really time to throw in the towell?

If any of my friends were to tell this kind of stuff was happening with their wives, I would tell them to cut their losses as well. But, that's because it's not my heart that's on the line, and I would rather give advice to a friend that keeps them safe (ie., out of a potentially dangerous situation), rather than advise them to tough it out and try to make it work, because there is the chance that advising someone to stick it out would result in some kind of greater injury. In essence, a broken heart is easier to survive than a broken head.

But, that means that I am just giving advice based on popular convention -- "once someone acts violently there is no chance for resolution" -- or "once someone is shown to be violent, there is no way to safely remain with that person."

That's not necessarily a fact all the time. I don't want to lose a woman I love, and suffer a divorce, without knowing that I really have done all that I am capable of doing to save the relationship.

-Mark

-- Anonymous, March 24, 2002

Marcus,

First of all, you're welcome to have whatever perspective you like, and you're welcome to express it on this bulletin board. However, there are some ground rules for conversation here, and I'm going to delete any postings that don't follow these rules:

1) No swearing or profanity. 2) No putting down other posters. (not okay: he is a wimp, so...) 3) No racist or sexist postings. 4) No advocating violence. (not okay: you just need to slap him/ her back) Postings which do not follow these rules will be promptly deleted.

Your posting was inappropriate, so I'm deleting it.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2002

get away from her. cut off all contact forever. start living a life for yourself. her problems are her own.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2002

Other followup:

Marcus was simply wrong about domestic violence against men being a recent phenonmena. In fact, all the research we have suggests that it has not increased or decreased at all since the 70s. And there is some evidence that domestic violence against men happened against men hundreds of years ago.

About leaving: when I was in my abusive relationship, I felt exactly the same way about it. I felt like I loved her, and I wanted to do everything possible to try and make things work. I think it's hard to have perspective from within the relationship -- it's not until you get outside that you see that someone who really cares about you wouldn't treat you that way. And if they did, why would you want to stay with them. Why go through the hell when you really don't need to, when you can find someone who will be there for you instead of tearing you down?

I don't advocate that everyone leave their abusive relationship -- some people do actually make things work. But it can't be a one- way street, with just one person trying. I think it requires a certain sort of pragmatic skepticism to sit back, look at your relationship, and see where the flaws and strengths are.

I look at it like a job application. Do they have experience in good relationships? Have they demonstrated proficiency? Based on their history, do you have any evidence that would lead you to believe that they are going to really do a good job in a relationship with you?

If the answer is no, then you're holding onto hopes that aren't based in anything.

-- Anonymous, March 25, 2002

Jade: Thank God for arbitrary rules, lest you be subject to non-PC opinions. After all, how you say something is so much more important that WHAT you are saying, right? haha

I'm sure it's no coincidence that the level of violence (against men) has stayed the same since an organized movement to disempower men has been at it's peak....but I degress.

I guess the fact that you (if I'm reading your post correctly) let a woman beat you up is kind of a touchy subject. Maybe someone more objective should moderate this board...

-- Anonymous, March 26, 2002

Jade has left your misguided response on line. That should tell you something about his character.Jade is probably one of the most reasoned, balanced people that I know. As a the founder of this site, he has helped keep the debate as diginfied as he is.

-- Anonymous, March 27, 2002

Mark, I'm going through the same thing you are (except I'm female) - trying to decide if they really *are* going to change, and if I should separate while he gets help.

I've spoken to so many people trying to get objective advice and really, none can make the decision except us. I suppose Jade is right when saying to look at their history, look at the facts and make an intelligent decision on that basis.

In my opinion, this is the toughest decision that we make. Being pregnant right now and still having love for my abuser and desperately hoping he's going to change, it takes an strong act of courage to decide to throw away all stability and familiarity and hope that they'll change.

I've come to the conclusion that the only option is to have them seek professional help by attending a batterer's intervention program or similiar and even then there are no guarantees. The question is can you endure incidents that happen while they get therapy?

You say she's going to counseling a week yet still is displaying unpredictable violent behavior.. are you willing to tolerate it? and for how long? I don't know but I'm afraid that in order for sincere behavioral change, they may need the boost that separation gives.

-- Anonymous, March 30, 2002

Hi Mark. Yes, I realize that I am a little late in responding, but I am new to this site. I teach Anger Management so I know whereof I speak. Firstly, let me let other readers know that I once was an ANGRY BLACK BALL OF RAGE WALKING AROUND! And, yes, I am a female. I was physically and emotionally abused from birth (1961)to 1987, and ANY intimate relationship I allowed myself to get into would have been dysfunctional. I chose to stay single,after my 2nd marriage.. to find out what about myself would allow me to continue to get into such terribly abusive relationships. Not everyone chooses this path. I'm just gateful that I did, or I may not be here to assist (hopefully). OK, now to the hard stuff...

Firstly, your partner needs to recognize that abuse is an issue in her life. That's the hard part. Next, she needs to WANT to work things out for herself, not for you. that is not a slam, just that she needs to realize that past abuse is causing a problem now. The past abuse was not your fault. Nor was it hers, for that matter.

There is SO MUCH HELP out there if she wants to help herself grow. For me, even though I decided not to accept any more physical abuse, I forgot about emotional abuse, so there I went again. Fortunately for me, my spouse was willing to grow with me, and we are still together after 9 years. However, it wasn't an easy 9 years for him! I needed to heal my past automatic responses, as well as the past, period! I made good use of the groups offered by Social Services, and learned that I, too, was dysfunctional...not just my exes.

I now use my past experience, and some wonderful resource material, to help others through their pain. The books I found most helpful are as follows:

When Anger Hurts, by Matthew McKay, Peter D. Rogers, & Judith McKay Make Anger Your Ally, by Neil Clark Warren Slavery is Alive, and We are Not Well, by Ethel Quiring & Hugh Savage ISBN 0-932796-69-9 How You Feel Is Up To You, by Gary D. McKay & Don Dinkmeyer The Anger Control Workbook, by Matthew McKay and Peter Rogers Dr. Weisinger's Anger Workout Book

Some Inner Child work may be in order as well, and anything by John Bradshaw is great. as well, I am currently using "The Inner Child Workbook" by Cathryn L. Taylor for my Inner Child Re-Parenting Groups. It has proven to be very effective to help heal childhood pain.

I use ALL of the above resources in my Anger and Re-Parenting groups, and use them myself when my own anger becomes an issue. Dealing with childhood or recurrent abuse is a lifelong struggle, so I wish you well. I do know, without a doubt, that you CAN get here from there! You just have to want to. Wishing you peace...Judy

-- Anonymous, April 05, 2002