Luftwaffen Eigentum Leica IIIC; any info?

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there is a LTM camera, called the "Luftwaffen Eigentum Leica IIIC" for auction on ebay HERE

Poor cosmetic condition, yet already bidding at $2,475. Does anyone know the story of this camera?

jeremyT www.lifeinblue.com

-- jeremyT (jerthomas@earthlink.net), March 22, 2002

Answers

if authentic, a camera produced under contract to the german airforce before or during wwii. it has a special olive drab enamel paint, a mtching olive drab leather case, the special engravings as noted in the item description (some occasionally have add'l nazi engravings [usually the fakes] added by owners). some of these cameras als have special shutter blinds, red or half red. most have the "k" shutter frame assemble which, without going into detail, has additional ball bearing race. just because it's b&h, i suspect it's a fake. indeed, the vast majority of military iiics are fakes. the few real ones out there tend to come out of estates, etc. if anyone is interested in purchased a bona fide iiic eigentum, park square camera in boston, mass has one, complete with lens and case, for sale. it is decidedly NOT my cup of tea!! others will write in with far more detail on this camera -- all the collector books and sites have plenty of add'l info. but these are some of the basics as i understand them.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 22, 2002.

>just because it's b&h, i suspect it's a fake.

Why is that. DO you consider B&H to be a disreputible firm?

-- Adam G. Lang (aglang@hotmail.com), March 22, 2002.


Roger,

do you realy think Luigi Crescenzi (umana) and other well known Leica specialist and collectors as 'arsenall' or 'caporal' are bidding on a fake (see bid history)???? This camera is not a fake.

Best Regards

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 22, 2002.


B&H is an honest place. I'm sure the camera is real.

It does strike me odd that a conservative Jewish owned company would consent to sell any Nazi era stuff at all. Very odd to me.

-- Steve Hoffman (shoffman2@socal.rr.com), March 22, 2002.


Roger. The camera and engravings are probably real. BTW there were NO olive drab military Leicas made during WWII. Olive green paint was only used post war (usually in M cameras like M3 and M1) but possibly IIIg occasionally. WWII military Leicas were either in gray paint or chrome finish.

The story as follows. There were a small number of special IIIc cameras made with gray paint top and bottom plates and gray (rather than black) vulcanite during WWII. Most of these had a ball-race shutter (for low temperature operation) and are designated so with a "K" ("Kugelagger" or ball-bearing) stamped in the shutter curtain (usually white stamp on black, occasionally black on red). Most of these IIIcK cameras (Lager classifies as a separate model from IIIc) also had a K next to the serial number on the top plate. There are some IIIc with no K serial number but a K on the shutter curtain; and there are some IIIc gray paint with neither marking - these are not IIIcK cameras unless they had a K on the shutter curtain (which all IIIcK models did originally) but the curtain was replaced.

Not all gray paint IIIcK cameras were military models with military engravings. I have one with no military engraving that is equally rare but presumed to be a civilian issue unless proven otherwise (according to Lager). But many IIIcK gray paint cameras (if not most) went to the military and have special engravings: eg., "Luftwaffen-Eigentum" (property of the Air Force) and "W.H." (Wermacht Heer) or just "Heer" (for the Army).

Most of these cameras are beat up and have some of the vulcanite missing. The WWII gray paint cameras were, to my knowledge, the only ones which used gray vulcanite, so it really can't be replaced with contemporary vulcanite from another camera. Note that this camera also has the FL number engraved (characteristic of all Luftwaffen cameras).

This is a very rare piece. Arsenall (who has the high bid so far) is a dealer from Germany (he buys and sells). In better times for Leica collectibles, any IIIcK gray paint, especially one with military engravings, would sell for over $ 4000, but the market is depressed, hence the reserve having already been met a a low price.

There is also a very rare chrome IIIcK camera (with K after serial number and stamped on shutter curtain) at auction on eBay. A camera repair person would be able to absolutely verify the ball-race shutter on disassembly of the camera, but I'm sure it too is genuine.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 22, 2002.



i have had nothing but bad experiences with b&h's used department. conversely, i have had nothing but good experiences with b&h's new camera sales dept. in my experience, the b&h used staff (with the possible exception of israel [don't call him izzie!!]) is not very knowledgable at all when it comes to classic and collectible cameras. it is very difficult to discern real from fake luft. eig. cameras, and it certainly cannot be done via relatively low res. digital pics. as to why experienced collectors would take a chance on the camera: (a) the price is still below what a real mil. leica would fetch, and (b) the one thing you CAN be sure of with b&h is that they will refund your money if you want to return the camera. so i suppose there is no real risk in taking a chance -- and you mite get a good buy. as for whether you want to call the color of the camera grey or, as i did, olive drab, is a subjective matter. i think of grey as being a much darker shade, but i suppose it can encompass a fairly large range of colors. i guess my basic point is that there are a VERY large number of fake military leicas out there - - indeed there are more fake luft. eig. cameras out there than any other type of leica fake -- and i just don't think b&h has the expertise in house to authenticate such a camera. (a couple of years ago i believe, christies, south kens, had to buy back a luft. eig. they had sold as real. and they have bona fide experts on hand.) further, in my experience, the greatest numbers of fake mil leicas seem to turn up in london and nyc.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 22, 2002.

p.s. i would be very curious to hear from people who have had good experiences with b&h's used dept. to amplify my prior comments, i find that they (a) always charge more than their local competition (ken hansen, lens & repro, camera traders, etc.), (b) almost always overrate the condition, (c) sometimes sell things that appear to be "in stock" on their computer, but which later can't be found in the stockroom, (d) give VERY poor trade-in value when you are trading in to buy another used piece -- again, way out of step with their competition, (e) have very few if any staff members who are actually knowledgable about classic (as opposed to late model used) cameras (again as compared to their competition), and (f) have a shockingly sparse stock as compared to other places, especially in view of the volume of their new camera sales. i really think b&h would prefer NOT to be in the used business, and points a-e above are a reflection of this attitude. now, to be fair, i think the new camera side of the business is amazing, i buy lots of stuff, and am very impressed with the firms customer service, etc. i also don't think that they would intentionally purvey fakes. further, as i said above, i am sure they would allow you to return any camera for a prompt refund if you had any doubts about its provenance. it is not a question of integrity AT ALL, just expertise.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 22, 2002.

Roger. Gray is gray. This IS a gray paint camera. Olive drab refers to the olive green paint cameras (eg., M1 and M3). Olive is a greenish brown, it is not gray. This camera is not olive drab. I can't say it any more plainly. And caporal (Lars Netopil), umana (Luigi Crescenzi) and arsenall are Leica experts and apparently believe this item is real, since they have bid on it. I'll take their words for it. I have no experience with B & H, but I have a lot of experience with rare Leicas. I make my judgments mostly based on what I see, not what I think is the knowledgeability of the seller. However, I believe that B & H does have the expertise to authenticate a gray paint Leica.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 22, 2002.

Sorry, but Eliot is correct - Olive drab can in no way be mixed up with gray, Olive drab is NOT like Khaki ie varying shades from brownish to greenish. Olive drab is always a dark (usually matt) green as used typically on military vehicles.

As one who used to attend many auctions and viewed much eqiuipment passing through Christies London auction house, beware! As well as being the place of choice for the real quality rareties it also has a reputation as being a "dumping ground" for poor Leicas. The vast majority of screw and M mount bodies I have examined there were (seriously) faulty yet somehow achieved huge bids sight unseen.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), March 22, 2002.


Ok, if we REALLY want to get picky about the color, it looks like a shade of RLM grey. These were color standards used by the German Luftwaffe.

feli

-- Feli (feli@d2.com), March 22, 2002.



i bow to the unanimous opinion -- the camera is grey. i must say i never knew that there were later cameras of a different color. eliot -- as for your certainty that the camera is real, you do acknowledge that there hundreds, if not thousands of luft. eig. fakes out there?? and what's with all the mint (or more commonly/cunningly "mint -") "original" black paint cameras that are turning up on ebay. people really seem to believe that these are original examples, despite their highly improbable pristine condition (and the fact that often the serial number does not correspnd to a black paint camera).

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 22, 2002.

Roger. I said "The camera and engravings are probably real." I didn't say anything about being certain. I would need to see it and examine it to be sure. I have been collecting for a long time and have seen many Leica military cameras from WWII (as well as fakes), so I base my opinions on experience and knowledge of the details of these items. My remarks apply only to the specific item that Jeremy asked about. I'm sure everyone is well aware that there are fake and repainted Leicas on the market. This isn't news to me.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 23, 2002.

I agree with Roger to a certain degree about B & H s/h dept, but then B & H new can also be unhelpful in person too. Certainly they tend to overcharge for Leica s/h stuff and sometimes they are way off (See $1600 s/h Apo Telyt 180mm...). I assume they are big enough not to care or they have customers other shops can only dream of.

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), March 25, 2002.

In 1963 I bought a grey IIIC-K with the K in the serial number and a white K on the shutter for $40.00. I sold it about 5 years later for the then astounding sum of $100.00! Unfortunately I did similar dumb things with a cherry 28mm Summaron with case and hood, a Leica-vit for IIIf, a 50mm f/2.5 Hektor, and a few other Leitz "collectables". Otherwise I'd be retired today!

-- Al Kaplan (Preachrpop@aol.com), May 27, 2002.

Connoisseurs of Leica,

I have new puzzle for you. I bought Leica D.R.P. "Luftwaffen Eigentum" "WH" with serial number 315484 recently in Russia. It is coming from the Soviet soldier who captured German pilot with the camera. In the leadher case I found document in Russian (from 1950) about some anti-tuberculosis treatment. All seems authentic, but what you think about it ? Also, what would be the price of the peace ? Thanks for your responses. Milan

-- Milan Nikolic (m.nikolic@yubc.net), June 03, 2002.



Milian; is the roller cam on the body a roller or a pie shaped wedge surface? Most all fakes are made from Zorki or FED bodies...The ones for sale usually show this little detail; because it gives it away as a fake...The Leica's have a round roller..Regards Kelly

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), June 03, 2002.

Milian; I meant to say that the sellers of these cameras rarely show the camera body's focusing cam Kelly

-- Kelly Flanigan (zorki3c@netscape.net), June 03, 2002.

The Luftwaffen Eigentum (property of the air force) and WH (Wermacht Heer, for army) are mutually exclusive. No genuine Leica military camera would have both. But ewven so, Russia is the source of so many fake military Leicas that I would bet on it being fake. Genuine military Leicas from WWII are rare.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), June 04, 2002.

A gift from my Step mother who is from Bulgaria - newly in my possession: Leica camera

Here are the specifics coming from a "camera challenged" person:

It is old - very old. Don't know if it works - wouldn't even be able to tell because I don;t know how to operate these.

It's body is a textured dark brown or black material - every thing else is a goldish copper color. The lens cap is copper colored and has the word Leica on it's face. When I take the cover off - it says: Leitz Elmar f=5cm 1:35 and has the numbers from left to right: 3,5 4,5 6,3 9 12,5 13

On the rim under the lens it has numbers as well: from right to left 8 20 10 7 5 4 3 2,5 2 1,75 1,5 1,25 and around the bottom rim it says: No 050071

Turning the camera around (on the upper left corner of the back on the copper part is engraved : "Luftwaffen Eigentum" "WH"

The top of the camera - on the left - engraved in copper is a eagle with wings spread open and stands on a Swastica. Then to the right of that is the word Leica and D.R.P is under that. Under all of that is Ernst Leitz Wetzlar and towards the center (to the right of what I mentioned is: No 261754 - it appears to be a serial number.

More numbers appear on two dials on the top. And more markings that appear to be the words on and off on the bottom ( auf zu)

I can easily twist and turn buttons -

There is a Brown leather case that is old as well. It says Leica where the lens cap would be. On the inside - back - of the case I can barely make out words that appear to be stamped there. It reminds me of a water mark . It is a round stamp with a jumping deer - and I can make out the word Mockba ? and I can't make out the other words.

So, Whew ! What the heck is this ?

-- Kris (Klavitola@aol.com), July 18, 2002.


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