I've read what Erwin has to say - does anyone else have experience of how the 50 and 75 summiluxes compare in terms of wide open performance?

-- Steve Jones (stephenjjones@btopenworld.com), March 20, 2002

Answers

Steve,

Go through the recent threads for a series of (on-going) test by Mike Dixon and his newly acquired 75mm Summilux. He has a lot of experience with the 50mm Summilux (albeit and older vintage) and is doing some comparison and contrasting of these two optics.

They are under the heading of "75mm 'Lux adventures", and a chapter number. His latest is featuring the 75mm lens and the 50mm DR Summicron, but earlier chapters have some shots with the 90mm Summicron and 50mm 'lux.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), March 20, 2002.

Steve - IMHO, there are two discrete variables to consider. One is your ability to focus accurately, and the second is your ability to remain rock-steady while depressing the shutter button. With any M series .72 body, you're at the ragged edge of being in focus with the 75 Lux at 1.4. The 50 Lux provides more latitude due to the DOF. If you're hand-holding and "quick-snapping" your photos, the 75 Lux is more demanding than the 50 Lux. It's a heavier lens, and, unless you are in the prime of life - - with no tremors - - you can get the miniscule "jiggles" that keep you from producing a rock-sharp slide or neg. Unfortunately, I know both of these variables from experience. I loved that 75 Lux - - provided I had someplace to steady my body or to use a mini tripod or a bean bag. It's truly a magnificent lens, but it demands *very* careful focussing and a *very* steady shooter to get the results of which it's capable. We now have the 50, and the 75 was sold to a good friend. Just my two cents.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 20, 2002.

Steve. The 75/1.4 Slux is a newer optical design than the 50/1.4 Slux (1979 vs 1961), so it ought to be better wide open. But consider the differences in angle of view. Leica points out that 75 mm has a view (31 degrees diagonal) very close to that of the 90 mm lens (27 degrees), and much more narrow than the 50 mm lens (45 degrees). It is also considerably larger and bulkier than the 50 mm. So I would take these factors into account in deciding which one is best for you.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 20, 2002.

I have NO experience with either lens. But think of this.

Erwin Puts suggests that the VC Nocton 50mm f/1.5 is a better lens than the Summilux. So if I was to say "how does the 75mm Lux compare to the Nocton?" I'd probably be shot on this forum.

And James would probably be the first! :)

Conclusion, the 75 Lux is probably a better lens optically, but if you read what Elliot said, his comments (prespective, angle of view) should be at least 50% of the decision. And if you buy the 50mm, you'll be tempted to buy the 90mm later (if you want a portrait/longer lens). Whereas the 75mm could do both!? An excellent choice as a "tweener". Great for low light too!

-- kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 20, 2002.

Well, I was faced with a similar dilemma; I still have the 50 Summilux, and I no longer have a 75 Summilux. But, this is just what worked for me...

Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), March 20, 2002.

The story that has made the rounds regarding why 75 mm is that Leica wanted to make a superfast 90/1.4 lens (the desired focal length) but settled for 75 mm because the 90/1.4 would be too big and block even more of the VF. Thus the 75 is supposedly a compromise to reduce the degree to which the lens (especially with hood extended) blocks the view.

I'm not sure this story is totally correct, since Leica did in the early SM era produce a close relative of the 75 mm focal length (ie., the 73 mm Hektor, which was a bit slower at F/1.9, but superfast for its day (early 1930s)). Thus there is a history of having produced a similar focal length in the past.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 20, 2002.

Steve, what you really want is a 35/1.4. Trust me I'm right on this.

Matt

-- (matt@pulzer.org), March 20, 2002.

Yes, in part you are correct in that what he really wants is the 35 lux. But, in addition, he wants the 75 lux. Hehehe. Seriously, it's a good combo. ; )

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 20, 2002.

Steve,

I'd be interested to see what Erwin has to say about the 50 'lux but I've never found anything on the web. Where did you see it? Perhaps I should buy his book!

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 20, 2002.

Eliot:

Along the same lines, they also made an 85mm f/1.5 Summarex in threaded mount. Not many were made, though.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), March 21, 2002.

Ray,

You SHOULD buy Erwin's book. Not only does he cover just about every lens Leitz/Leica ever made but he also discusses a lot of really good Info on lens design, etc.

BTW, Erwin mentioned in a recent newsletter that he's working on another book. I suspect it has to do more with cameras than lenses.

-- Bud (budcook@attglobal.net), March 21, 2002.

Bob. The 85/1.5 Summarex is a fascinating story, It's the only lens that was newly designed and introduced by Leitz during WWII. Some 90 units in black paint finish were produced in 1943 and sent to Berlin (presumably for distribution to the military, there is no definitive info on their ultimate distribution). The official commercial introduction of this lens wasn't until 1949, when the lens was produced in a somewhat different mount (now coated) in a chrome finish. It is a very big lens with a very large hood that adds to its already impressive bulk.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 21, 2002.

James,

Haven't you reccommended the 35/75 combo somewhere else once, twice or more. I agree that the 35/75 combo is the best two lens combo available in the M or any other system. Geese, I am stuck with the 35/50/90 and it's also fantastic.....once I start using my Nocton.....once I can get a M adapter to mount the damn thing! Good luck whatever your decision.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 21, 2002.

Very different beasts Steve. The 50 is much more of an all rounder than the 75. OTOH, the 75 is a fantastic optic in more senses than one. The extra reach, the perspective compression effect and the honey smooth bokeh are signatures of the 75. When you add perfectly useable f1.4 capability, quasi flare free performance AND the fact that it allows to shoot 70 cm from subject, giving it de facto the highest magnification ratio of all M lenses, you realise why the 75 is absolutely unique.

I use a 0.72 M, and can vouch for its focusing precision with 75mm wide open even at closest distance. No FUD here.

OTOH, the 75 is big/heavy in purist M terms, and does beg to be accompanied by a wider lens for standard assignements. The 50 'lux or the 35 'lux will be more versatile as standalone options.

The 50'lux to own is the most recent one, focusing down to 70cm. Previous generations focus down to 1m (like the Noctilux), which is a very real limitation at that focal length. From all the experience shared by users and testers, the 50 looks like a wonderful performer as well. Wide open performance is usually considered as very good to excellent at the center and more average in the periphery, which is perfectly OK in most cases.

But it is a 50mm, which many users, including myself, consider as a "compromise" of sorts, with 'neutral' perspective effects (unless you shoot under the nose of someone) and lacking the expression advantages brought by wider or narrower angles of view. At the end of the day, one has to work harder and think more with a 50mm to yield eye catching images.

Like others, I highly recommend the 35 'lux and 75 'lux as the epitome M combo.

Alternatively the 28 'cron and 50 'lux should also bring great mileage in a more compact package....

-- Jacques (jacquesbalthazar@hotmail.com), March 21, 2002.

Me? Ever recommend that combo before? Nah...maybe someone else? 35-50-90 is awesome as well, I haven't much patience for switching lenses is all. That 90 is killer though, much more modern than the 75 lux for sure! I don't know anything about comparing wide open performance, maybe not much of a difference? Probably which focal length is more important.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 21, 2002.

Hi to every one, and a joyfull wellcome to spring.

May be Lutz K. once talked about his preferences for that combo (35- 75), if not escuse me Lutz.

I have never try the 75´x and just got a 50´x that have try for a week or so, but not enough to say much about it, well I can say that is hardly larger than a latest 50/2, and that 4x5 prints at 1.4 looks so contrasty, but not more.

Something interesting and a bit out of topic here is to analize combos reasons, I mean, why can be a useful combo of 35-75 for some while some others would prefer a 50-35 or 28-35 or 21-135.

Having the most of options is a reason, the same that brings you to get a 24-300 zoom; also two or three focal lengths that cover your most photographic demands, or two very diferent angles of view for each one of your kind of photography (can be the case of 35-75 combo, where 35 can handle fast moving street like situations and 75 a relax landscape-portrait like photography), there is also combos that go round a specific angle of view where extra lenses help to compres or open a bit on a single focal length like 28-35-50, or simply specific optics that for it´s qualities are a photographer´s choice for example a 50-50-50-50, yes a 50/3.5, a 50/1.4, a 50/2 DR and the lates 50/2, all are the same focal length but each lens has it´s unique qualities.

May be this topic deseves a new question.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), March 21, 2002.

James, You are right! Now I have too many decsions too make. And one of them is whether to carry the 50mm. Ah it's ok, I'll just trade it on a Noct later on....much later on!

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 21, 2002.

Oooo noctilux, now you are talking about a 50 *grin*. I admit a fascination with that lens- a nice piece. Hmn...I wonder if such a lens will be in production forever? I am tempted to add one later on as well for night missions. : )

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 21, 2002.

James, lets buy together and get group discount, kinda like Fat Albert going to Mc D's for a Big Mac or two!

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 22, 2002.

Ok James, I am putting you on the spot. Over weeks we all had to listen to your quobbles (spelt right?) over getting a 75mm Lux that wasn't faulty.

Then for the last couple of weeks you've been raving on about the 35/75mm Lux combo. Now's the time to put your "pictures " where your mouth is and share!

I'd like to think that all the trouble was for something. Just some motivation. "Make a post to make the most..."

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 22, 2002.

Hehehe...yes well with midterms coming to a close today, I will have more time to take some photos. I will be travelling (nowhere too scenic) on the 29th, and will take the Leica with me. Yes indeed, after my travails in procuring a nice 75, I'd better get some more use out of it, more than portraits of my girlfriend's mutt. *grin* Thanks for the challenge, and perhaps you should do as well! Would be interesting to see some of your photos as well, do you have a webpage or folder on photo.net?

Indeed, a lot of my recommendation for the combo has been not based a whole lot on results, although I have shot with them. It's the seemingly obvious benefits of the simple setup though. Anyway, yes I will endeavor to post some by the beginning of April, if not earlier, and I trust you will as well!

: )

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 22, 2002.

Go here for my stuff. though not much from my 90 APO yet.

http://www.photo.net/photodb/user?user_id=427015

Where's your link?

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 22, 2002.

Excellent photos Kristian! A nice balance of subjects, travelling, sports, women, etc. Alas, I do not have a neg/slide scanner, although I should get one. The three I have in my photo.net folder are scanned B&W prints, and I think you've seen those since you commented on one of them, but I will get more! Just tonight snapped off a few of my girlfriend's pup and her sister's pup playing (now that's hard to do with a Leica, for me yet anyway). Let me see if I have some nice photos from my digital camera to upload into my photo.net folder under James Allen. Until then, thanks for sharing.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 23, 2002.

Thanks James. Photographing my dogs is also a challenge, and sometimes I wish i had my old F5. Miss your old EOS? I am sort of considering selling my 90 APO and getting a F100 and my old AF 85mm f/1.4 back, or a EOS 1n with a 85mm f/1.8 or 100mm f/2. Not sure yet as I still need to give the 90 more of a go.

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 23, 2002.

From Photo.com's MTF tests

50 'Lux at f/1.4 (center image) 40 lpm - 50% contrast, 10 lpm - 90% contrast

75 'Lux at f/1.4 (center image) 40 lpm - 32% contrast, 10 lpm - 80% contrast.

The 50 is sharper (40lpm) and contrastier (10lpm) wide open - by a significant (but not huge) amount. No questions of focusing accuracy or lens shake in MTF charts. It may be an older design, but it's also a less challenging focal length to design at f/1.4 - and throws a sharper, contrastier (but not necessarily 'better') image than the 75.

The 75, however, pulls 'way ahead, especially at the frame edges, at f/ 8.

FWIW the few 'live' shots I've done with the two lenses pretty much mirrors the MTF charts - the 50 was acceptably sharp (for me) at 1.4, while the 75 was not. At f/5.6 or f/8 the 75 was very pretty.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 23, 2002.

That should be - "From Photodo.com's MTF charts"

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 23, 2002.

Yes indeed would've child's play to capture the real "decisive moment" with a Canon or Nikon! Those pups run around changing range on me, guess I should be more adaptable, but I think that would cause some camera shake. My girlfriend has a rebel and the kit zoom, but it's a breeze to get such action shots.

I'd say if you miss out on some shots that you got with your old setup, sounds like it would be valuable in your kit, unless of course you are getting more valued ones with your 90 (which you don't know yet). hard choices no doubt.

Yah my 1N was nice, but I was thinking, heck, bust out a camcorder! I had a Canon GL-1 which I sold, since I think its replacement should be coming within the season. They are priceless for graduations, weddings, dogs playing, etc.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 23, 2002.