Hello all,

I was just told that my M2 (##1164 287) which has the M4 loading system, is a veteran of the VietNam era US Army, o/w known as the KS-15(4). That may explain the beat up condition it was in when I bought it ($295 in 1988) requiring a complete overhaul in Rockleigh. Has worked like a champ since. I've been considering upgrading the finder to the six-frame M4-P/M6 version, but wonder if that would be detrimental to its resale value (to a collector)? Are these common? I ask because the only other M2 I've owned (stolen in a burglary on Super Bowl Sunday 1987 from my home while I was at the game with my M6)was probably also a KS-15(4) (#1163 757 with M4 loading, bought at a photoshow in Los Angeles in 1985 for $195)! I bought the current one sight unseen to replace the first based on similar late serial number.

Any information/help is greatly appreciated!

Adam

-- adam g. lang (aglang@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002

Answers

I have the slightly older brother to the camera that you have (serial Number 1164199), which is also one of the 1966 U.S. Army rapid load cameras. I can't find any production numbers on this sub-model, other than the narrative in my collector's books about how the M-2 for the U.S. Army was contracted in 1966, and upon cancellation, was offered to the general public with the designation of M-2R starting with serial number 1248201, in 1969. I was told that the Leica internal designation was M2-S, but it was not marked externally as such. When the M2-R came out for the general public, it had that marking on the top plate.

I was not sure if my camera was indeed one of the Army models, or if it was in-fact retro fitted later via a rapid-load kit, but on a Leica day at my local camera store several years ago, one of the technicians examined it and said it was an original. I hate to think about things like collect-ability, because when I bought it I wanted a "user" camera for my 35mm lenses (I was an M3 user at that time), and Tamarkin had this one in stock. The sales person got exited when I asked him for the best M2 that they had in-stock at the time. I had no idea it was special, and used it for years before finding out it was (relatively) rare. Mine was in 9+ condition with the "L" seal on the top screw, but I have used it pretty hard, so it is no longer pristine. It is still smoother than my M6, and has the "L" seal, having never been serviced.

-- Al Smith (smith58@msn.com), March 19, 2002.

Adam. I don't remeber prices being that low even for user M2s in the 1980s. Anyway, the M2-KS-15(4) is the military version of the M2-R (M4 rapid loading system, these have SN 1249-1250xxx), which was sold to the public. This camera is relatively uncommon and worth more than a regular M2 in the same cosmetic condition. The answer to your question is that most collectors are interested in original (unmodified) items, so that it would affect the resale value if you had the finder converted. However, if the camera is really beat up, it's probably only worth a little bit more than an equivalent regular production M2, so you wouldn't be losing all tha much.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 19, 2002.

i'd check ebay. military (unmarked m2-Rs) are fairly valuable. i have seen really mint examples go for more than $2500. it is one of those crossover collectibles that interests both the mil crowd and the leica people (and the mil leica people of course). the differences are more than the rapid load. there is also some internal wiring present for some purpose i've forgotten. also it has beefed up winding mechanism to be compatible with a (never made??) high speed motor winder. it is these internal features -- along with the military ks serial number -- that identify the camera as something more than a mere m2. my personal opinion is that you should sell it on ebay witha highish reserve. if it goes, buy a choice m2 and pocket the change. that is unless you love it!!

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

A military version M2 is worth about $ 2000 in really nice condition (E++ or better) (because these cameras were well used and usually found beat up). It is worth far less in bunged up condition; and as I said, not much more than a regular production M2. This camera does NOT have any military [KS] serial number. There are no military markings whatsoever on this camera. There was a miltary contract number on the combination carrying case (which held the camera and three lenses with which it was usually sold, 50/2 DR, 35/2 Summicron, 135/2.8 RF) but NOT on any of the cameras or lenses. This carrying case is an uncommon item but is occasionally offered for sale.

I have not heard anything about the other changes you describe, nor have I seen them deswcribed elsewhere. As far as I am aware, these cameras do not have motor winder connections (as does, for example, the M2-M), nor were they sold with winders.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 19, 2002.

eliot -- i am sorry to be athorn in your side; i really don't mean to be. however, the ks15-4 DOES contain differences beyond the qwik load. the film compartment is much more heavily sealed than on a normal m2 (the difference is pretty obvious in a side by side comparison), the transport axle is made of a differnt material, and THERE IS a small wire that runs inside the camera along the edge of the back door (visible only upon disassembly) that has no apparent purpose. ostensibly the wire was for use with a motor winder that (depending on whom you believe) was never made or was made in small numbers. all of these differences are fairly well known and documented in numerous places, including jim lager's fine treatise (vol. 1). the serial number range for ks15-4s is 1163150-116370 and 1164046-1164300. you are rite that the ordnance number appears on the case only. cheers!!

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

as for price, m2-r cameras seem to sell (at retail) in the $3000 range (the classic camera has one for sale now at UKL2800 or US$4200 - - condition unlisted). the ks15-4 is considerably rarer -- five stars in the leica guide as opposed to four for the m2-r. my guess is that a proper ks15-4 in good shape may well be worth several thousand dollars (or three or four EX condition plain jane m2s). check ebay of course for low ball numbers.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

sorry -- the top end of the first serial number range above should be 1163770, meaning that your first camera xxxx757 was also a ks.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

Roger. I don't know where you get this information. I have Lager's book Vol I in front of me. It describes the existence of the KS-15 version of the M2 but no description of any internal differences other than the presence of the M4-like rapid wind. I have one of these cameras. I do not note any differences in the film transport mechanism. I'm not disputing that there may be differences, I'd just like to know what is your source. Finally, as a long time collector, I can tell you that you are wrong about the value of these items. Anyone can ask anything for any of these items. I'm telling what they are worth in the real world. Not what someone somewhere sells something for.

The M2-R and KS-15(4) are two different stories. The M2-R is worth more (regardless of rarity) because it has a different model designation on the camera: ie., the camera itself says M2-R. This happens to be important to collectors, while the KS-15(4) version still only says M2. It's just a fact of life, not a reflection of the relative rarity (fewer KS-15(4) cameras were made).

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 19, 2002.

al -- sorry i didn't see your question. extrapolating (as you no doubt have obviously already done) from the serial numbers above, it appears that about 900 cameras were made. however, since they were supplied to the military directly, and never made available for sale to the public (except as surplus or on the used market), there is likely a smaller percentage of these floating around in private hands than other scarce models. many were probably trashed, and a fair number are probably still locked away in random warehouses/depots/etc. never to see the light of day. looking over auction lists, they turn up very infrequently as compared even to m2ms which have even lower production figures. in fact, there seems to be a small grou of ks cameras that just keep getting sold and resold.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

elliot -- i just did a qwik google search. take a look at the leica gallery site. click onto info about m bodies. click onto "m2." go down to the "m2 variants." click on the blue hypertext link "ks-15 (4). all of the info i have given (and more) is listed there. ALSO, a ks-15(4) just sold on ebay for $2600. it is the only one i have ever seen on ebay, and a real coincidence that it should turn up now. on one hand, that camera was in very fine condition. on the other hand, leica prices are WAY down on ebay at the moment. look at the low prices achieved by iiiGs currently (as compared to a year ago, say). and the retail sites, as i mentioned in my earlier post, are still selling m2Rs for multithousand dollar prices.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

eliot -- sorry about misspelling your name. i know what that's like. everybody always stick an "a" into my last name to make it "michael." sorry!

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

Whew! Alot more info than I bargained for. I figured 1163757 was a KS-15. But my insurance policy replaced it with a new M4-P with M6 windows, so at the time I was pleased. Also replaced an old SM Summarit with a new Summilux, a 90 Elmar with a new (German) Tele-Elmarit and a beat up 8 element 35 Summicron with an new fourth version. The only place I didnt do well was I also lost a SM Nikkor 25/4, which they replaced with a 28/2.8 Elmarit M v3. I really like this camera, but.... Maybe I'll put it up on eBay with a $2000 reserve......

Adam

-- adam g. lang (aglang@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

"I was told that the Leica internal designation was M2-S, but it was not marked externally as such."

About the only thing I can add to this learned and thorough discussion is that the designation M2-S has apparently been used in more than one way. When the M2 was introduced, it did not automatically come with a self-timer. Those fitted with one were, at that time (Circa 1960) were designated M2-S (although not so engraved). The "S" meant self-timer.

That, from this old-timer self.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), March 19, 2002.

I just went and looked at my KS-15(4) set (which I bought a number of years ago relatively cheaply). Interestingly, the camera has SN 1163753 (just four away from one of Adam's cameras). The camera comes with the following items: 1) KS-15(4) combo case with a plate containing the KS-15(4) designation, a contract number, and an FSN number (Federal Stock Number); 2) three lenses of the same vintage as camera (all 1969): 50/2.0 dual range with eyes - very late, 35/2.0 chrome 8-element Leitz Canada, and 135/2.8 RF lens with ser VII adapter and ser VII Leitz UVa filter; 3) M2 instruction book with a special insert showing the operation of rapid loading system; and 4) most ineterting of all: a Leitz N.Y. guarantee certificate with the data (in 1969), the serial numbers of the camera and all three lenses written in, and made out to the Army General who took delivery of the camera.

I think there may have been a flash unit and a few additional filters that were also provided with the set (these are indicated in a card that shows the compartments of the case); but the flash and filters were not present in the set I bought.

Also, the Leitz guarantee card has the same contract number as show in the metal placque attached to the combination carrying case. The set is not mint. It was used, but not abused as they say. Different items range from E/E+ to E++. I bought this quite a while before anyone really noticed that this variety of the M2 is rare.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 19, 2002.

eliot -- i know you will say "no way," but i really think your set must be worth $5K or more. the provenance sounds impeccable. as with watches (in a big way), and colectibles generally, military stuff is going through the roof.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 19, 2002.

Unfortunately, the Leica market is pretty soft now. Even for military. There is a KE-7A set (U.S. army version of black Canadian M4 with 50/2.0 Elcan lens and special lenshood) which has met the reserve on eBay at $ 6200. When the Leica market was strong, this outfit would have easily reach $ 10,000. Gray paint Leica IIIcK models from WWII are also going for considerably less than what they used to go for. Same is true of olive green military M3 and M1 cameras (one of which recently went unsold). Military Leicas still remain popular, but the prices have come down significantly.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 19, 2002.

> I've been considering upgrading the finder to the six-frame M4-P/M6 version, but wonder if that would be detrimental to its resale value (to a collector)?

I had one of those babies; it worked wonderfully although it looked pretty crappy but was well worth the $250 I paid for it.

At any rate, I went through the same consideration and decided that it was much more sensible to simply sell the camera for a reasonable price, which paid for a fairly mint M4-P. My M2S (or whatever it should be called) was far from mint, actually Exc- or so, but some collector decided that it was collectible and on a purely practical level the M4-P was a better user camera.

To specifically answer your question, I think converting your camera to an M4-P viewfinder would eliminate any special collectible value.

-- John Hicks (jhicks31@bellsouth.net), March 20, 2002.

Adam: since your KS15 is 'beat up' as you say, i would use it as is. unless you want to sell it, but as has been discussed, now is not a good time to sell. collectors will usually only buy based on the condition, yours would not fetch as much as you expect as 2000 is a little high at the present market conditions. As i think Eliot said, to alter it would immediately depreciate its value considerably in the eyes of collectors

Bob: Yes, you are correct that the M2S or M2-S designation has and is confusing. A lot of people understand the M2S or M2-S as pertaining to the Self-timer inclusion on the camera vs M2X (without self timer). Most people regard KS15 as the formal designation, but only people 'in the know' know this. However, in several texts they refer to M2S/M2-S as relating to the KS15 military M2. As an example, the Hove International Leica Price Guide 8th Edition sights this camera as "M2-S chrome body" under the heading "Military Leicas". They should really note this in print as the KS15(4). While under the M cameras, they code the M2 with self timer as "M2 Lever Rewind D/A'. As a note there were also was also 20 blue grey military M2's made for the German army.

Roger: Yes, a KS15(4) was just sold on ebay. But did you notice the serial number of this one Precedes the serial number ranges you quote from Lagers book. The one sold on ebay was: 1163115 (i think) this is short of only 40 or 50 of the first of the first batch. But on looking at Lagers book, he did put in print that these serial number ranges were "approximate". So even Lager had no conclusive evidence of the exact serial numbers and numbers of KS15(4)'s made. If you go to KBcamera.com, they have (2) KS15(4)'s for sale. One is in serial number as has been quoted, but the other is out of range. I also agree with you that the Leica market is a little depressed. This is not surprising as Japan is in a recession, the US is sort of in one, so that means that luxury item purchases will fall. As has occured on ebay prices for most Leica items.

Eliot: Roger is correct that the KS15(4) has more unique features than a standard M2 apart from the M4 quick loading breech. Of these:

1). Special sealing of the back film compartment. These are visually evident. Look at your KS15(4), compared to a normal M2 side by side. flip open the back doors on both. Now on your KS15(4) note that there are (should be) two vertical foam seal strips on either side. This will not exist on a standard M2. These were to stop sand, wind, elements from entering the film chamber. If you go to ebay and pull up the page on the KS15(4) sold you will see these strips. These are evident also on the genuine, unrestored M2-R's I have seen personally.

2). Apparently, and I have not opened and sighted it myself, as Roger has said, there is supposed to be a wire connection for some sort of motor drive capability.

3). The advance crank mechanism was strengthened, I read in a book just 2 days ago. Apparently this was to support motor-drive capability. This kind of corroborates with Rogers explaination of the shaft being made of different material.

Lastly, I'd like to know if anyone has anymore information about these cameras. And is it possible to pass off a standard M2 as a KS15(4)? For instance buy an M2 in roughly the approximate S/N number range as researched by Lager and have an M4 breech installed (DAG apparently can do this).

-- summicron (summicron_@hotmail.com), March 20, 2002.

Also, I talked to Sherry Krauter over a month ago about KS15(4)'s. She said all the ones shes seen and repaired are indeed truly beat-up. So, if you find one in nice condition, regardless of whether you are a user or a collector, you will have found a truly rare, best of the best M2's ever made.

Note 2: the M2-R's are just as good and useable. But just beware that many of these have been reconditioned and restored, eg. the top-plate has been replaced. I suspect the owners know the rarity of this b/c of the M2-R inscription and are willing to restore it for resale value. However at the same time these devalue the camera, and could catch out an unsuspecting collector or buyer who is not knowledgeable about them. You have to watch out for these, and know what you are looking for in order to make sure its an M2-R in original condition. I have seen 4 of these which have been restored.

-- summicron (summicron_@hotmail.com), March 20, 2002.

as for the mystery wire, i can now confirm that it definitely exists (i did a dissection last night). it appears, however, to be a single core wire (i didn't cut it!! but i doubt that it's coaxial). as such, it may be some kind of ground wire to shunt static electricity away from the film gate to the chassis where it can ground through the user's body. it may have been thought that high speed film movement could cause static discharge inside the camera that would fog/streak the film. perhaps elements of the film transport are not already "grounded" to external elements of the body. anyway, just a thought. someone with specific knowledge of the m2-m can probably answer this question. again, though, it does appear to be a single core wire.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 20, 2002.