Hi fellow M users. I am in the process of re-designing the M Classics bag and would like feedback and suggestions from photojournalists and street shooters.

As many know, it is NOT an all purpose bag, a system bag, or a "transport" bag, and so, to meet the needs of my customers, there are some significant design constraints. It needs to STAY basically narrow in profile, medium sized, light, fast, discrete and essentially unpadded. Here are some of the features I will be adding or considering adding based on feedback from Leica shooters: 1.a handle mounted at the rear/top of the bag.

2.a panel or two of REMOVABLE padding. One at the bottom of the bag and one for the back.It will likely be thin closed cell foam on a thin panel of plastic and covered in some nylon material.

3.a lighter colored material lining the bag so that small gear and accessories can be seen better than in the current black material. Will this be a cleaning problem?

4.a wider rim of leather trim to stiffen the "mouth" of the inner speed pocket.

5. different configuration of front closure straps. Possibly one combo buckle and post closure, maybe snap instead of post. Currently there are two snaps and one buckle. The velcro on the underside of the flap is what is used for fast street shooting but while in transit, a simple way to "buttoned-down" the flap may be more desirable than the current snap and buckle combo.

6.slightly longer and possible ovoid shaped front flap to allow more unnecessary gear to be carried.

7.possibly, an optional strap attacment that allows either a rear mount (current configuration) or side mount attachment. The side mount will distort the shape of the bag by pulling in the sides under the load and it will slow down the opening of the flap and, hence, access to the gear, but some photographers have mentioned that they would prefer it that way. I am not sure if it is conceptual or is preferred after actual testing and comparing the use of the rear mount strap to a side mounted strap. Please let me know what ideas you have as a"near perfect" bag for the M camera. Again, it is for fast journalistic style shooting as opposed to a larger "System" bag for transport with casual/slower access to gear.Generally, the people who use the M bag are concerned with speed and access so please keep that in mind as you ponder your design wish list. Thanks very much for ANY help you can offer. Seth Levine www.mclassics.com

-- Seth Levine (pepe3@bellatlantic.net), March 19, 2002

Answers

As I said in another thread, I consider at least one zipper pocket essential, for important papers, checkbook, passport, whatever. I like the end mounted strap because I *feel* like it wears better than the stiffener in a back strap, but I could be wrong.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

Seth, all camera bags are better off if the back side and bottom are covered in some kind of very durable leather. I have taken every Domke bag I have owned to a local shoe repair shop and had a large piece of durable leather sewn on the back and bottom. This is where I find most bags wear out the most from rubbing against the body. I want to check out your bags. It sounds like they are very nice. DAYTON

-- Dayton P. Strickland (daytonst@bellsouth.net), March 19, 2002.

I often switch bags at my destination in order to have a light, easy- access bag to carry all day, but while I appreciate the distinction between the M-Classics and a heavy transport bag such as a Billingham or LowePro, there are certain features that are essential for me even for street use:

1. Removable (D-rings+clips)strap, so I can substitute an Op-Tech SOS elastic strap. That thing is a marvel, it makes a full bag seems half its weight and doesn't cut into your shoulder.

2. Strap attachment reinforcements that run down the length of the bag, box-stitched with nylon thread, so there's no chance it can tear away and the bag drop to the ground.

3. Carry handle is unneccesary and an irritation. It's easy to grab the bag by the shoulder strap.

4. Padding *all* around the interior. It doesn't need to be thick, just enough to prevent the contents from taking the full hit if you get jostled into a brick wall, and so the contents don't slam into your ribcage when you walk.

5. The interior movable flaps should be *lightly* padded...just enough to cushion against hard knocks if the bag is jostled.

6. A padded and stiffened bottom, for setting the bag down on a hard surface. It can be removable, but the bag should have the same permanent padding on bottom as elsewhere.

7. A Gore-Tex layer sewn between the inner and outer fabric, or some other means of waterproofing. Seams should be taped.

8. A coil-type 2-pull zipper that closes the main compartment. With the deconstructed type of bag, once the zipper pulls are retracted to each end, it would be just as accessible as the current bag. But in a dusty area, or for example while on a crowded bus or subway, the zipper could be drawn shut.

9. Remove all fasteners except the velcro from the front flap...with the zipper they are no longer required.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), March 19, 2002.

Seth the sholder strap shohld go all the way across the bottom and up the sides that way the weight of the bag and contents are supported by the strap not the bag. This way the weight is distributed over a larger area and not concentrated at the point where the strap is attached to the bag.Helps beef up the bottom and cuts down on bellying and compressing the top, when you only have one or two heavier items in the bag.

-- Alfred Henry (J Henry@provide.net), March 19, 2002.

Hi Seth! You and I have discussed this at length in the past, but here are my thoughts for the record:

1) A detacheable handle could be usefull, but not necessary if it adds to the bulk of the bag.

2) I put just such a semi-rigid foam panel in the bottom of my bag. Remeber, I have a custom version of your bag with the side-mounted straps. This stiffened the bottom enough to alleviate the distortion problem you mention in "7". IMO the rear pad is not needed, but if it were removeable and/or very thin I think it would be an okay feature.

3) Again, I absolutely think this is needed; I hate looking inside a black bag for black camera equipment!

4) I think the "speed pocket" is fine as-is.

5) IMO the central buckle is all but useless, and the snaps are just okay. I would much prefer clip-locks, or even snap-rings a-la Domke, as they can be operated easily with one hand. Don't use the Billingham style lock strap, please!

6) Yes, and with more velcro to hold it at different positions.

7) As I stated earlier, I love my current side congiguration with the bottom stiffener. It hangs much better when slung over just one shoulder. The rear position only works for me if I sling the bag over both shoulders, bandoleer style. Having the option to clip on at two points would be super, and would leave the remaining position open for attachment of the auxillary handle mentioned in "1".

Let me know when the new bag is ready. I'll want one!

Cheers,

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), March 19, 2002.

Seth,

I don't like the handle idea. Additionally, I really don't like Velcro. Noisy and distracting. It really announces itself to people. If you do decide to use Velcro, make the stitching accessible so those of us who hate it can easily remove it without damaging the structural integrity of the bag.

I am inclined to agree with many of the rest about the strap attachment. The rest of your ideas sound good.

BTW - Thanks for asking. Few manufacturers make the effort to get this kind of direct feedback.

Regards,

Sven

-- Sven (ssampson@inreach.com), March 19, 2002.

Hi Seth, Thanks for putting this message up for the user group. Unlike some of the others, I consider the extra handle absolutely essential (that's why I just sent it back to you for a retro fit). I find when picking up a bag by the strap I lose some control as the bag swings freely and bangs into chairs, walls, etc, thus the need for a handle. I cut some bubble wrap to fit the bottom of the bag and the speed pocket for extra protection. So your idea of removeable thin padding for these areas would be most welcome. Would it complicate matters to have 2 or 3 different options or versions of the bag to satisfy the preferences of your customers especially in regard to strap configurations and handles? Apart from these latter two issues, the other suggestions for improvement seem relatively "non controversial." Also, I would like to have more choices regarding color. Right now you have a Henry Ford Model T policy: you can have any color you want as long as its black! Thanks again for the opportunity to offer feedback on making your fine bag even better. Dennis

-- Dennis Buss (dbuss@rider.edu), March 19, 2002.

Seth - I agree with Jay on the zipper.

-- George C. Berger (gberger@his.com), March 19, 2002.

Not to diss you as I think bag solutions are needed. I already have the perfect bag system - used the last five years. Unfortunately, Eagle Creek doesn't make them any more (?), at least I haven't seen it in a while; I'm on a constant look-out for bags for other stuff.

If anyone wants a detailed descrip. please request. It's a small double zipper top (one zipper, two handles) black bag that hold my SWC and one M4 body w/21 SA lens on one side (lens facing out) of a velco'd divider, adjusted at a tilt to allow fast camera removal. The other side sits the SWC (lens facing the back of the M). I grab the A12 back, lift, and tilt to remove camera; lens goes in first, tilt back down into bag.

It has two (originally one) adjustable, curved and padded, removable nylon straps; one over the shoulder, one around waist.

Has several well integrated small zippered pouches that, when not used, does not add any profile to the bag.

My M6 w/35 goes into another SMALL strapped bag.

My hand held meter goes either in my back pocket or into the SWC bag in the top flap.

If I'm alone, the 90TE, if brought, goes into a bag off my belt.

If my Sig. other is with she gets to be my assistant, carrying TE, table-top 'pod, assisting with lens and filter changes, etc. my third "bag" 8^).

For transport, I use the M-Classic, old-style. Then, it goes into a backpack for camo. It's a bit of a pain after 9/11, though, but it's easier to carry.

-- chris chen (chrischen@msn.com), March 19, 2002.

Oh, the SWC bag is approx:

10" L

6" H

5" D

And FAST.

I even get to rest my left arm on it for comfort and bag protection.

-- chris chen (chrischen@msn.com), March 19, 2002.

Seth- One of the best bags I ever used was not really a bag, but a hard case. Either way, I wouls like a rather thick high density foam rubber piece on the bottom. I used to carry the camera while driving a truck all day. Puts a lot of vibrations into the camera. I think this is why a much-loved Rollei 35s self-destructed. Black should be an option, if not the Ford Model T mandatory. You can leave a black bag in a dark car interior and it is hard to see by a thief. There ought to be a sewn in window for ID. Perhaps the end of the film box to let you know what's in the camera. A means of securing a tabletop tripod, say, behind the bag, with Velcro, would be neat.>>>Now, how about a *stealth* bag? A UV filter is sewn into the front, like back window of a convertible. The lens fits snuggly thereon. A flap covers it. A means to advance the film and trip the shutter. Lens would be pre-focused; probably a wide angle, for depth of field. GOTCHA>>>>>>>>>>!!! :)

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

Seth, I've always looked at different bags over the years, looking for the ideal bag. In the late Seventies, I found a Leitz bag which I used to carry a Pentax LX & several lens around in. When I bought your bag, the Orginal M Classic, you sent me an e-mail asking if I was interested in the "new" M Classic bag. I wasn't, and, for me, the Orginal M Classic Bag is as good as it gets. What others don't like, I like, from the location of the strap to the front snaps, velco, & buckle (which really secures the front flap). All I see is a lot of useless and needless weight & size being added, and I hope that you'll bring the old (tan)bag back into production for thoses of us that think all these "improvements" are crap. What I'd like is, beside the rear full lenght exterior pocket, is a rear full lenght interior pocket, open at the top and bottom, though it's really not necessary, and instead of a hand handle, I'd like a "small finger handle," but again, it's not necessay. I'm glad I got the "Original M Classic Bag" when I did. It wears like iron, hangs great, and offers an optimum amount of protection and accessiblity.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

Seth, I think your current bag is great except; 1. make available in light color 2. either zipper on back pocket or better inside on front flap a zippered pocket 3. choice of side or back shoulder strap 4. wider front flap strap fastners

That's it

Steven Alexander

-- Steven Alexander (alexpix@worldnet.att.net), March 19, 2002.

My first satchel bag was the Domke 803. Then a couple years ago came the Classic M bag and at first I fell in love with it. Then I started to hate that 'flap', it always seemed to be in the way. So, I took a stapler and stapled it the way I wanted and covered up the staples with a liberal helping of several layers of black duct tape. But still the flap was a pain. Because I put two Ms with lenses and hoods into the Classic M one of the lens hoods would always 'creep' under the flap. The other thing is with the strap anchored at the back of the bag, the bag always seemed to be leaning in the direction of dumping everything on the ground. The Classic M has a couple of annoying faults. So now for the last few months I have gone back to the 803, although I periodically drag out the Classic M and try it again because in principle I love the bag. I have thought several times about calling Seth and having him modify a bag to my design. Now, because of this discussion, I think that I will give him a call.

-- Steve LeHuray (steve@icommag.com), March 19, 2002.

P.S. Seth, I carry my "Orginal M Classics Bag" 24/7.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

I looked at your bag on your web site. I am looking for a bag for my M kit. M3, M6 two Summicron 50s, a Summicron 35, 90TE and 135 Elmar. I have been thinking of a Domke F-6 but your bag looks like a possibility. You are commended for asking users about their preferences for modifications. I offer the following after reading other user's comments. 1) I think that a stiff bottom would be good, similar to Domke's stiffener in the F-2 (which I use for my R kit). 2) Expand the size of the back slot up to 9 X 13 so that 8-1/2 X 11 papers are completely enclosed. Papers sticking out of the top will get ragged fast. What is the time to market of your redesigned bag? I need to get a bag before I travel overseas again perhaps later this year.

-- Doug Landrum (dflandrum@earthlink.net), March 19, 2002.

Seth,

I had considered your original bag awhile ago, but got the Domke J803 instead. Looking back now

1. Synthetic materials for bags get quite uncomfortable in the tropics. I guess most of your customers live in cool places so this may not be much of an issue, but for me, I daresay your original canvas/cloth bag would have been a lot more cool and comfortable against the hip.

2. What tipped me in favor of the Domke was the additional side pocket and the 1-step secure closure. Three straps seemed a little inconvenient. But I like the way your bag splays open to the side for easy access.

3. I know you need to rationalize the product line, but these days, with laptop bags and fancy trim bags, your current black and black/tan lines scream stylish and expensive. The older sand/tan canvas blended nicely with the kind of casual chino/docker/slacks that a lot of guys wear in these days. Kind of more street casual to my mind.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 19, 2002.

So many people are complaining about the black, I gotta say that's one of the things I like best about it. Pure black--invisible.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), March 19, 2002.

I've got a couple of the original bags, from the seventies, as I recall. I'd like the bag to hold its shape a little better rather than sagging in the middle when loaded; and for the bottom to hold its shape and be flatter and stiffer, so I can set it down without worrying about whether it will roll over, or if the lowest-sagging item will get seriously bonked. And I would like one or two more compartments or cells so that expensive gear doesn't all clunk together. I don't like those free-ended dividers; too fussy and unreliable. And the left and right front lens holders were a bit too slender. How do you get a short lens out? They are a good shape for a 135mm, or a 3-cell flashlight, or a water bottle.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), March 19, 2002.

I liked my original Leica bag, but tended to carry odds and ends in it instead of cameras and lenses.

I'm still of the school of thought that "some" padding is a good thing. Just a little - less then the Domke 803 has on its outer walls.

One thing to consider with the closure - is not the opening... but many times the RE-closure. Whatever is used must be both lasting and secure, AND easy to one hand open AND close.

-- Charles (cbarcellona@telocity.com), March 19, 2002.

Hi Seth:

It's great that you're soliciting sugestions from users before re- designing your bag! I have been using a Domke 803 for about 12 years and haven't actually used your bag yet.

The most common concern I've heard about with the M Classics is that it has NO padding. On that basis, I'd recommend putting Non-Removable padding on the bottom (like the Domke 803) and maybe offer Removable padding for the back. I'd also recommend adding thickness to the inner dividers to better protect the gear.

I personally prefer a single buckle/post closure than two.

I also prefer a smaller bag for carrying a smaller outfit like 1 camera with 2 lenses. You might eventually offer small AND medium size bags. I think you'd draw a lot of customers who are considering something like the Domke FX5B (?) belt bag. After all, the Leica M appeals to "minimalist" types and not everyone needsor wants a mid size bag. I'd probably have opted for the Domke belt bag had it been available when I bought the Domke 803.

Take care!

-- Ken Prager (pragerproperties@worldnet.att.net), March 21, 2002.