Hi everyone,

I have taken lots of pictures and need advice on improving my framing technique. Especially when I will be getting a M3 now. Should I follow the rule of thirds more and leave lots of empty space (esp. in indoor shots) or should I try to go for filling up the whole frame with the subject in question?

Thanks for your advice.

Alfie

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), March 14, 2002

Answers

Alfie, don't follow rules. Don't think that way. Erase concepts like "the rule of thirds." Shoot lots of film & continue to frame & compose based on what feels right to you. Any other methodology will doom you to looking like someone else. You have to develop your own vision, your own sense of what's right. That will only happen as you burn loads of film, & as you critique your own work more harshly than anyone else. Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you how to frame a photograph. Study acknowledged masters, but develop your own eye. Great photographers also always have a "style" that's easily recognizable--none of them found an original style by following someone's advice...

-- Patrick (pg@patrickgarner.com), March 14, 2002.

Although I sort of agree with Alfie, most of the rules are there because they are generally successful. Nobody invented the rules first and then invented photography. The "rules" came about because people saw "good" pictures and then realized that certain "rules" could be postulated that generally fit the good photos.

The rule of 3rds is a good example. If you look at most "good" lanscape photos you will note that they do follow the rule. Not because the photographer said, "I need to apply the rule of thirds," but because it just sort of automatically works for human vision/interpretation and generally produces a pleasing photo.

Some people have much better photographic vision than others. My wife, though not a photographer at all - doesn't even like to mess with cameras of any kind - inherently has a better eye for photos than do I. And she know nothing about any of these "rules." I can't tell you how many times I have been taking photos when she has said something like, "Take one from here, angled through this window; get the rose bush in the lower left, the steeple in the upper right and the curved part of the window frame ." Then when I stand where she was I say, "Wow, why didn't I see that?"

For those of us that don't have that perfect photographer's eye, the "rules" can be a useful assist - at least at first.

If I had to pick a most important "rule" of the many that exist, one that almost ALWAYS improves a shot for me, it would be: "Get Closer"

-- MikeP (mike996@optonline.net), March 14, 2002.

If I had to pick a most important "rule" of the many that exist, one that almost ALWAYS improves a shot for me, it would be: "Get Closer"

This is another way of getting rid of the extraneous stuff that would distract from the main subject. Simplify, simplify, simplify!!

-- Douglas Herr (telyt@earthlink.net), March 14, 2002.

Alfie, follow the 'rules' - at least for a little while. There's a saying about needing to know the rules before you can effectively break them. If you just go blindly shooting - 'following your heart' so to speak, when you hit on something that works you'll have no idea why it workd and not be able to reproduce it. Makes for a body of work with no cohesion or theme. But to more directly answer your question. I have found the rangefinders I have owned (M4, CL, IIIg) to all be fairly accurate framing - if anything they are a little generous. I sometimes find more on my neg than I was expecting, but have never found less. This said however, I usually leave a little safety room when framing.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

Having seen a few of your photos, I would go even further than Bob: Go get yourself a copy of National Geographic Photography Field Guide: Secrets to Making Great Pictures and follow the rules without exception for at least a year, maybe two.

-- Ron Buchanan (re_buchanan@yahoo.com), March 14, 2002.

You are getting good advice, Alfie. Just as aspiring painters go to museums and copy the work of the masters, choose a photographer whose work you admire and try to imitate him. You will find it quite difficult to do, and you will find that it will actually help you develop your own style. The four greatest influences in my photographic life have been Fritz Henle, B.A. King, Robert Doisneau, and Eliott Erwitt. They have inspired and taught me, yet my photographs don't look anything like theirs.

-- Dave Jenkins (djphoto@vol.com), March 14, 2002.

Hello Alfie. A local camera club,where you could share ideas and photos would still probably teach the rule of thirds however such a "rule" is a compositional aid only.Archaic rules should not dominate your instinctive feel as to the composition.With time I've found the "It looks right in the finder" aid to apply.If you feel comfortable with the finished image that's all that matters.Regards.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), March 14, 2002.

Hi, Alfie - another vote for follow the rules (where they work). As others have mentioned, the rule-of-thirds works well in many, but not all, circumstances. Additionally, there is real value in following "the rules" until you have enough experience to know when breaking the rules will be more effective, and you've developed a real style of your own. I also like Mike's suggestion of "get closer" - which takes you into territory where the rule-of-thirds is less obvious, but still often works. The positioning of the leading eye in a tight headshot is a good example of this latter case.

The other suggestion I would have is to look at the scene as graphic shapes, rather than people and objects of continuous tone. Then, frame in such a way as to visually balance those shapes in a way that is consistent with the mood and the message of the image. Sometimes, that balance will follow the rule-of-thirds, and sometimes not. When it doesn't, give precedence to the balance.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), March 14, 2002.

HCB used to have his followers look at their photos upside down in order to evaluate the composition. Don't forget, he thought that photography was just a means to make himself a better painter.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), March 14, 2002.

"Just as aspiring painters go to museums and copy the work of the masters, choose a photographer whose work you admire and try to imitate him."

Right, and photographers can profit from studying the work of painters, as well. Renois and Degas didn't always follow rules for placement of the subject. In fact, I get the impression that Degas was trying to emulate photography, as when his painting includes a man just about to walk out of the frame, during a ballet rehearsal. And both these painters would include "environment" that would have been cropped if the "get closer" rule were followed.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), March 14, 2002.

"Should I follow the rule of thirds more and leave lots of empty space (esp. in indoor shots) or should I try to go for filling up the whole frame with the subject in question?"

Both.

RE BOB and DEGAS. The Impressionists were the 'street photographers' of their era (see Caillebotte among the others) - study their work, Alfie (but don't necessarily copy it slavishly - just absorb their varied approaches to re-presenting reality). As Bob alludes to, they were the first generation of painters to grow up surrounded by 'photographic' images (just as us 'boomers' were the first to grow up with TV images), and they drew on the lens' way of seeing to inform their painting.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 14, 2002.

alfie:

the more you shoot the more you will develop your own style and what works for you. many of us here probably can pick mike dixon's photos out of a stack because they have a certain signature to them. personally i like to crop tight and eliminate anything extraneous. i usually shoot from diferent perspectives and different angles and then select what works best for me. if you follow this procedure you may in time find that certain "rules" work best for you. you may also find that your "rules" may change over time. if you consider photography as an art then let your photographs reflect what you feel is important rather than what some rule book says is important.

good luck

-- greg mason (gmason1661@aol.com), March 14, 2002.

Alfie, I like what Greg said. The only rule I would follow would be to check all 4 corners of the photograph about to be shot for extraneous UNWANTED elements in the picture. Do this if time allows. If time doesn't allow,frame and shoot OR, if necessary, Just shoot. Also look at as many photographs as posible and look at as much art as possible. When in doubt,shoot! Film is cheap!

-- John Elder (celder2162@aol.com), March 14, 2002.

Check around the edges for clutter. Await further instructions before you press that shutter release ;-)

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 14, 2002.

"HCB used to have his followers look at their photos upside down in order to evaluate the composition."

I've tried it, but it makes me feel sick. I have to stand on my head to see the picture properly. I think it was just another of his little "mystique of HCB" tricks.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 15, 2002.

Have to agree with you Rob. I talked to an 'art purchaser' once who said he looked at everything upside down before he bought it to be sure of the composition. To me, an upside-down landscape is just and upside-ddown landscape?!

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), March 15, 2002.

Alfie,

Just shoot with both eyes closed and tell yourself "I am a leicaphile and I am shooting with an M3", AND your picture will be like HCB! See, it's that ez :)

-- Alfie Wow (leica_file@hotmail.com), March 17, 2002.

Alfie,

I agree with others that following a few good rules to start with is the way to go. This will eventually become second nature and you will then have attained the level of competence and understanding where you can make your own decisions about composition and develop your own distinctive style. I don't agree with the argument that following rules would limit your freedom of expression.

Another thing: I remember you once started a thread in this forum suggesting that we can learn a lot from studying the composition and techniques displayed in quality motion pictures. I have found this to be useful.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 18, 2002.