I am not asking this question to start a flame war. I'm asking because I will be buying my first Leica M soon, and want to get an idea of the things that might bug me after I get it (things like viewfinder flare, etc). I've read through this website, examined photos and specs, and played with an M6 in a store. But it seems like the little things you don't like about a camera don't become apparent until it is used in the field.

So please tell me, do you have any pet-peeves about your Leica M system? What would you change or fix if you could? I'll be getting a black Leica M7 0.72 with a 35/2 Aspheric Lens. My intention is to use it for unobtrusive hand held low light stuff, without flash. I use larger formats for landscapes and the like (tripod work).

Any other advice for a newbie Leica user is welcome!

-- Ray Negus (raynegus@pcez.com), March 13, 2002

Answers

You already know what you're going to buy. Buy it and ignore all the griping and belly-aching on this site. It will corrupt you and pollute your mind. Take your camera and use it and then you'll be able to answer this question yourself.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), March 13, 2002.

Wouldn't it make sense to simply rent the camera first , that way you will know first hand . If anything , getting used to film loading or framing should be your major problem ( at first ). Some people adapt quickly , while others are never able to . It all depends on you really .

-- leonid (kotlyarl@mail.nih.gov), March 13, 2002.

Ray. Please consider that this list, just like most lists, are dominated by a vocal minority and sometimes they give good advice. I have six Leica Ms and have none of the complaints that you here about here. Remember that there is NO nirvana with ANY camera including the M6. Learn to use it for its strengths and its weaknesses will seem to be very minor. Just enjoy the wonderful pictures it takes.

-- Steve LeHuray (steve@icommag.com), March 13, 2002.

Ray, have you looked in the archives - there was a similar thread to this quite some time ago that had a lot of interesting info. but I can't find it!

Along with the "which 35mm lens is the best" this is in the top five FAQ's - if you are coming from a typical SLR background the M is a real different kettle of fish and as said above rather than jumping in at the deep end it may be a good idea to trial before you buy.

Personally speaking the M7 is not for me but I do believe it is a fantastic camera that manages to blend just enough modern (sort of) features in the traditional M body without comprimising it's near perfect handling, construction and feel.

But to return to your original question - simply remaking the M4 would create a 99.99% perfect Leica for me (However, this would not make financial sense and I'm in the minority here).

We all want to see Leica survive and I believe the M7 will strengthen their position.

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), March 13, 2002.

Hrmn, maybe faster and slower shutter speeds, that's it. Maybe 4 sec. and up to 1/2000?

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 13, 2002.

ideal m -- that's easy!! same dimensions and specs as the CLE (ok, throw in AE lock while were dreamin'). same build quality as the m7. higher mag viewfinder. oh -- and stick a 35mm asph 'cron on front -- but with a COLLASPIBLE shade for further compactness. then you'd have a world beater.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), March 13, 2002.

Leica people are weird.

Check out the LUG and you'lll see all kinds of complaints about the smallest things -- I remember a thread a couple of years back by a guy who was so obsessed with the distracting nature of the "red dot" that he went to the effort to fill it in with black paint, while still leaving the logo part visible in silver. Weird.

Everyone has a few things they'd like to see work a little differently. I'd like to have a case for the camera that wouldn't slow down film reloads. I'd like a tripod screw that wasn't so far off to the side. I wish they weren't so damn expensive. I wish there weren't so many options for lenses so I'd know what to buy in each focal length (go to Stephen Gandy's web site and read up on all the different versions of the 50 Summicron that have been produced). I wish I didn't feel compelled to apply electrical tape to a nearly new camera in order to protect some of its value should I decide to sell it. (see? Weird). I wish there was a perfect camera bag.

Overall, in my opinion, there's no better 35mm camera if you're the kind of guy who shoots like me. I don't do macro, I don't do wildlife, I'm not big into polarizers and other filters, I like to exercise my mind while I exercise my shutter, I like to travel with portable equipment, I occasionally beat the hell out of my gear when I'm in a hurry and want a camera that can take the punishment. If I'm going to go to the effort to carry and set up a tripod then I'm going to expose a larger piece of film than 35mm.

Shoot with it and enjoy it. Nothing's perfect. But the M-series is as close as we're likely to see in 35mm cameras. ;)

-- Derek Zeanah (derek@zeanah.com), March 13, 2002.

If you look at other major camera brands (Nikon being my refernce point), they have segmented their target customers (they can afford to sinec they have a huge volume), and consequently offer: fully manual cameras through fully automatic, from cheap to high end professional quality. Similarly with their lenses. Some of the cheap stuff is pure crap, but there is a market for such stuff, and the margins are probably higher on junky cameras (probably outsourced to Malaysia).

With Leica the critics expect too much from ONE camera. One camera's features cannot please everyone. In my view the M6 and the M7 are completely different cameras and cater to users who have completely diffrent philosophies. You can't fit everyone into a Size 4 Chanel suit.

Personally, I would not buy the M7 because I like the fully manual capability of the M6. The thing with the M7 is that my wife could use the camera (which is why I bought a Nikon FE years ago, instead of the FM). The M6 is solely my camera, a pity. My wife now uses a Canon digital S110.

I think the M7 expands Leica's market reach, and is a breakthrough development for the brand. However, diehard Leica luddites such as myself would not go for it as a *primary* camera, unless they fall for The Thoughts of Chairman Puts.

Why did you choose the M7? that is the question to ask yourself.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), March 13, 2002.

Simple! I would eliminate the consumer. Noisy, hard to keep happy and always moaning about something. The darn critters blame the camera every time the dim bulb behind viewfinder cannot figure things out.

-- John Collier (jbcollier@powersurfr.com), March 13, 2002.

Oops , I thought you were talking about the m6 . By the way ,Vikram brings up a good point , why do you want an m7 ( as opposed to an m6 ,m4,m3,m2,m5 ) ?

-- leonid (kotlyarl@mail.nih.gov), March 13, 2002.

Hey Ray!

Actually, I think this is a good question (many questions here have been asked over and over again but somehow yours is somewhat original. At least for an M  :)

These are all questions I asked myself and answered myself  (with the help of everybody here, and I being a perfectionist, now wouldn't change any of my choices tomorrow. I thus have no peeves.

To change or fix could be:

(a)  M6 or M7: 0.72 or 0.85 or 0.58...
(b)  ... (a) depending of course on the lens(es) wanted/needed,
(c)  depending of course on (a), a 1.25x mag
(d)  M6 or M7 vs everything earlier (except likely M5)
(e)  M6 classic vs M6TTL
(f)  any M6 vs M7
(g)  black or chrome

That's all I can think of today. Tomorrow means more.

Just do it!

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 13, 2002.

I agree with the idea of renting a Leica before you buy it. It will likely be some time before you can rent an M7, though. But the M6TTL is not that much different that you could extrapolate as to whether the M7 is more or less suitable to you. You could always buy a used M6, use it, then either sell it (for what you paid) or keep it as a backup to the M7.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), March 13, 2002.

John! I just don't understand anything you said above here (although I have always understood everything (I think) and appreciated everything you have ever written here and elsewhere)... but me too being a northern Albertan, may I ask you -- please -- to enlarge here???

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 13, 2002.

Well, of course there's that pesky loading method and the fact that you have to focus ALL BY YOURSELF. That stupid off-center tripod socket is pretty dumb and the archaic non-matrix metering is, well, where's my buggy whip? You have to MANUALLY WIND the dang film and the dinosaur-era cloth focal plane shutter only goes to 1000/sec.

Then there's the rangefinder that doesn't view through the lens and the need for accessory finders for various wide-angles and the fact that it's nearly useless for REAL telephoto.

Hopefully they'll correct all these shortcomings one of these days! ;)

-- MikeP (mike996@optonline.net), March 13, 2002.

I think the thing that might be the worst irritation could be that you discover after you've spent all that money that you're an SLR person, not an RF person. If that happens, then all the little gripes won't matter, because you'll find yourself never using the camera at all. Do you have enough RF experience to know what you're getting into? Because it's not just a bigger P&S--the whole way you approach seeing pictures is different.

-- Michael Darnton (mdarnton@hotmail.com), March 13, 2002.

Welcome (soon) to the world of the M, Ray. I've only had my M6 TTL (also a 0.72) for about a year, but I've been taking photographs for about 40 years, and I'm very pleased with the M. It's a new way of seeing compared to other formats. What I've found in using it couldn't be called pet peeves, but rather learning or self-training experiences. (I still use my Nikons, and medium- and large-format cameras where their features are more appropriate to the task.)

I'm occasionally bitten by rangefinder flair, but found raising my eye position a touch usually solves most of that - enough, at least, to focus on what I want. I also find that I'm constantly grabbing the camera in such a was as to leave finger prints on the front viewfinder window. Wearing a single white cotton glove might solve that, but I'm too chubby and too old to do the Michael Jackson thing.

I also use the M in the studio on occasion, mixing it with other cameras. Sometimes, the sync socket didn't work, and I thought it was the connector being too sensitive to sizing of the connector on the cord. Turns out, the M sync circuit is polarity sensitive, and reversing the household-type connector in the other cord socket instantly solved the problem.

Likely, your biggest decision will be picking a spot to stick the baseplate when changing film in the field. Shirt pocket? Pants pocket? Try to resist the temptation of holding it in your mouth, however. Toothmarks on the baseplate will reduce the resale value. ;-)

As your target is low-light work, I assume you've made the 'Lux/'Cron decision based on cost/benefit. The 0.72 choice is good for your first M, I think, as it gives you flexibility. My second body will likely be a 0.85, however, for greater convenience with the longer lenses. I opted for the 24mm Elmarit, rather than one of the 28mm lenses, so the 28mm frame in the 0.72 is an unused feature for me, but that's OK. Your choice of the M7 also makes sense, if you like the option of using aperture-based AE. That's a personal style choice.

The only thing about the M that even approaches a pet peeve for me is the flash sync speed. 1/50 is very limiting for fill flash, but can be overcome to a degree with on-flash compensation controls.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), March 13, 2002.

I like the M and have no major complaints. If I had to choose one thing it would be [as above] the slow sync speed that is non- conducive to fill flash for backlit situations. This is the only kind of flash I ever do, and usually requires a higher sync speed than 1/50 sec to properly expose the background. The M7 partially addresses this (after a fashion) by providing HSS (1/250-1/1000) with a special Metz flash unit. But the basic sync speed otherwise remains at 1/50 sec.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 13, 2002.

My main pet peeve with the entire Leica system is the $40 plastic lens cap, after you've lost one. I should have known!

-- Steve Brantley (sbrantley@nccommerce.com), March 13, 2002.

I would get rid of the whiny customers.

-- fred (fred@email.com), March 13, 2002.

Built-in flash and automatic rewind.

-- Dennis Couvillion (couvilaw@aol.com), March 13, 2002.

I was tempted to suggest something dumb, like mirror and aperture pre- fire lock-up and a stop-down lever for DoF preview but, on second thoughts, I won't suggest anything so silly.

However, I would vote for the base-plate (or motor or RapidWinder) to be held captive with the body while changing the film. That way, you'd only need two hands. Another improvement could be built-in switchable eyepieces (.58-.72-.85) so you wouldn't have to buy multiple bodies just to get different viewfinder magnifications. You'd still want multiple bodies, though!

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 13, 2002.

Simple. Bring back the M3 or M2 as a lower priced Leica M. No meter, 3 frames only, and you get a self-timer! They could sell for $1000 or less.

-- chris a williams (LeicaChris@worldnet.att.net), March 13, 2002.

I really think the built-in meter (M5,6,7,CL) does help when shooting fast in varying light conditions. Otherwise I think the ergonomics, focusing, and viewfinder on all Ms are excellent, and the optics - even the old ones -- are superb.

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), March 14, 2002.

I don't know that I have many peeves - or I'd be using something else.

IMHO one of the BEST features of the M4x/5/6/7 is the loading, once you get used to it (no joke!). It is now easier for me to load than any other 35mm except those with motorized auto-loading. No futzing with a pull-up rewind knob or little slots in the take-up spool, and the finished cassette just drops out into your hand. But as a newbie you will need to overcome the temptation to 'help' Leica's autoload system by opening the back to align the film with the sprockets, or bend the film tip, or other useless stuff. Check the http://nemeng.com/leica/ page for the same instructions that set me on the right path.

Features I'd like to see - 1.0x viewfinder to shoot with both eyes open with the 50/75/90/135 lenses - faster sync speed (which the M7 delivers, sort of) - more reliable motor (not likely, given Leica electronic aptitude and the basic mechnical design of the M) - that's about it. I personally dislike the return of the M3-style guard ring around the lens-release button - fortunately my M4-2/Ps don't have it, and I've never accidently unmounted a lens.

It's not a perfect camera in some cosmic sense, but it's darn near perfect for the things it does best - "unobtrusive handheld low [or even bright] light stuff, without flash".

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), March 14, 2002.

Sooo, today I see what yesterday I forgot:

8. I miss a self-timer and I don't like the Hama add-on. Therefore see point (d) above.
9. I don't like my TTL's non-center base socket but I do like the RRS center mount baseplate (B 30).

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 14, 2002.

Here are my thoughts gents :

A – Keep the all mechanical model M6 TTL into production as a “second option” for some customers (but it doesn’t mean you can’t use the new body described below as an “envelope” for commonalty of parts and quick loading). May be, market it as “the adventurers’ camera” or something like that and coat it in olive drab…

B – Go much farther into modernization of the RF concept without any gadgetry:

1. Modify the body to have a fully opening back door for quick loading with capability to interchange it in the future for a full format very high resolution digital back.

2. Back to a flare less rangefinder “a la M 4” (I understand the flare is due to a simplification in the way the finder is built)

3. Change the shutter of the M7 to a fully electronic device (without the manual speeds capability if it means more complications and higher costs) with 1/250th of a second synchronization with all flash units and TTL operations at least to that speed with a dedicated module and 1/2000th of a second max. speed and very low speed capabilities) and use the savings in cost and assembly to lower the camera retail price.

4. Camera should be operable in two combined modes: AE with matrix metering or manual with true spot metering (so no need for AE lock mode).

5. No more different versions for finder magnification but built in capability to change it manually with three pre-definite positions : wide angle, medium focal length with very wide aperture, and tele-lens position. And great care to be exerted these three positions being usable by glass wearers.

6. Rewind crank well protected in the bottom plate now fixed to the body, used also to open the door by pulling it when motor is not carried. Rewind lock button being kept where it is.

7. Very high speed electronically controlled detachable motor (at least 6fps) with built in alimentation through a battery pack which substitute itself to the self contained batteries of the body when attached as an option (accessory)

8. Special low temp. use alimentation to be stored in a warm pocket (accessory)

C – Some new lenses which could be useful:

1. A 75 mm f/2.8 lens of a much compact design and with a much lower retail price than the 1.4 version

2. The return of a close up 50 mm lens with integrated finder corrector for low magnification macro-work which could be useful in travel photography.

3. A 180 to 200 mm tele-lens with very wide aperture with built- in finder magnifier like the old 135 mm f/2.8 to broaden the useful spectre of use of the M as to cover all what a 35 mm SLR can do in the so-called “general photography” field.

D – Dream may be: the return of Visoflex in a fully automated way using electronics (may be with AF included for long tele-lens) as to spare the necessity to have an SLR equipment and support the burden of the additional cost. This for macro and long tele-photo works.

A "universal M" ? Why not ?

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 14, 2002.

Black Paint!!!!!Black Paint!!!!!!!Black Paint!!!!!! Bring back this beautiful finish that wears so much better than black chrome:( oh yeah entry level body....

-- Jason Eitelbach (jasone@cinematexas.org), March 19, 2002.

Hey Ray!

My new peeve -- actually the oldest of all of mine here -- traditionally Leica makes (at least here in Leicaland) an official price increase twice a year. Every October 1 and every March or April 1. Don't try that on for size.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 20, 2002.