I've never posted here before, but I really love this board, Aeon Flux is my favorite tv show of all time. I've been a Flux fan since the beginning, going all the way back to the MTV days. Anyways, I just recently picked up the box set, and I remember now how great of an episode "Chronophasia" is. I remember seeing it for the first time back in my high school days, stoned out of my mind. I had the question then, and I still have the same one today, a question which I don't think has ever really been answered on this board. I've seen the posts where it has been discussed, but I haven't seen too many concrete opinions on it. Does everyone here agree that the mystery virus is really supposed to be LSD? I think that there are multiple hints that point to this conclusion. The first one is when Trevor describes the effects of the virus as causing the affected to feel a sense of connectedness with the earth. That has definitely been my experience with LSD (and marijuana for that matter), and I think that anyone else who has experienced it would probably feel the same way. Second, there is the talk about the virus as causing a "state of psychosis" and "permanent insanity". I believe that it is well-known that extended and prolonged use of LSD has been known to cause these very same side effects. Complete disconnection from reality is very easy to achieve by repeated use of LSD, and I've personally witnessed kind, intelligent, and sensitive people become ravaged by this extremely powerful substance. Finally, there is the speech in which Trevor talks about how he belives that the virus actually was once part of the human brain, a part which has been lost over time. I believe that this reference is relevant to psychedelics in general, substances such as peyote, mushrooms, etc. The use of psychedelics by ancient peoples is well-documented. I don't believe that they took these substances to "trip out" and say "wow, man". I believe that they used them to strengthen their bond with the earth, and to become more in tune with the forces of the universe. These ancient humans had a symbiotic relationship with the earth which is very difficult for us to understand in these modern days of technology. That brings me to the boy in the story. I believe that he is a representative of our human past, personified by a Native American. I myself am of Mexican-American and Yaqui Indian descent, and I live in the Southwestern U.S., so I know an Indian when I see one. I've always seen him as representing an ancient wisdom, personified in this case by an American Indian. Don't forget that at the end of the episode, a drop of blood drops right in the middle of his forehead, which from what I understand, represents the Hindu state of enlightenment. So it's my opinion that the boy represents all ancient peoples, especially ancient Americans and ancient Asians. So, with that, it's my theory that the mystery virus is definitely LSD. Long live Monica! Long live Aeon!

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 11, 2002

Answers

Great theory of this episode! Come to think of it the sudden changes of Aeon's costume fit in with a flashback experience. Indians have long used hallucinogens for a deeper relationship with the universe and their spiritual side-Carlos Castaneda's books shed a little light on how that works. Then the virus would be not a happiness as in smiles and laughs but more of a deeper meaning, and it was made in a lab too. However the ep indicated it originally was more a natural part of the human makeup, am I right? BTW; You wouldn't recognize THIS Indian, (I'm one eighth Sioux, with light skin, blue eyes and long red hair).

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 11, 2002.

I feel the Yaqui's used hallucinogens for introspection about their mysterious inner self and the relation to mystical forces in life. This side of us is elusive and to some unknown. I think to some extent our society has become so focused on entertainment, social interactions, acquisition of possessions and other sorts of diversions that we have a missed opportunity in our entire civilization for this. I remember a passage in Castaneda's experience where he was to sit, I think after much ingestion of peyote, and focus on the spaces in his thoughts that were nonverbal, (for me this is a tremendously rare thing). It was these places, explained as the sky being like a grid. The clouds and the empty spaces between the clouds, in the empty spaces the 'magic' was able to be worked. The peyote seemed to help him unleash his regimen of control imposed on himself by years of mundane behavior and banal conversation. We become out of touch with our own personal nonverbal being through language. Used by us to communicate we lose communication with ourselves. Our being is composed of feelings, emotions, sight, sensations, thought can be complex without words. This side of us lies waiting to be explored, affects us in everything, is our core. Not that drugs are the only way, in fact I take no drugs, but it is a way used by a society to realize this part of themselves, and their hasn't been too many civilizations that have recognized the need to do it at all. Art is another way, if it doesn't merely mimick mindlessly taught behaviors.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 13, 2002.

I don't want to give the wrong impression here though. I'm not advocating the use or legalization of drugs, natural or otherwise, but the effort to understand our own nature in order to be a happier people. The drug thing isn't the way I would recommend really, but that is the way that one people used it to be more centered and understand ourselves. It might have made them more happy. I think there's a lot to gain for all of us when the individual members of any society are happier at the core. Trevor seemed more 'happy' at the core than Aeon, who seems tense and angry, and Trevor wanted to use the happiness virus whereas Aeon was looking to destroy it.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 14, 2002.

Oops. Just realized that was their argument. Aeon thought an artificial drug to 'make' you happy was delusional and Trevor thought it was the missing ingredient for us all.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 14, 2002.

I did love your story, Logo, my fav subject and it's nice to have new stuff on it anytime. Logo means the word, have you ever written professionally? I hate to think of NY in such despair, they are the greatest people in that city, one of my fav series was the old Beauty and the Beast.NY is so romantic. Long ago in Manhattan I went to this intriguing little club where in the back of it was an open court yard with small trees planted into an old brick floor done in a herringbone pattern, with a glass skylight the entire size of the room, in an octagonal pattern. Ever been there? I'm not an alcoholic but I loved the wine there, no Yaqui spiritual experience but I did quiet down for a bit that evening.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 15, 2002.

Paul, if it didn't make you experience all those things you've mentioned-lazy, gluttonous, out of touch with reality, paranoid, palpatations and turning into a sex maniac then I have only one thing to say to you-you've simply got to stop buying cheap weed.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 18, 2002.

Kidding aside, for a period of my life I smoked grass pretty regularly. I once smoked opiated hash. I only did this until the hash was gone, about a week. It produced a walking dream-like state. It altered reality to appear to slow down, mundane sounds became new, I realized how many sounds there were around me at all times, and colors and shapes. How I took them for granted and did not 'see' everthing. Negative images stood out as positive. My mind 'thought' differently. I took part in the world through my senses, not my 'talk'. I realized I had grown dull and lifeless through endless mindless speech. I now could hear paper rustle previously not even noticed, I now heard that crisp sound. There's a lot hidden in what's in front of us. I was forced to recognize the world was hidden from me by my use of conversation, and that I had ignored it and dulled myself with talk, and consequently dulled my instinctual responses to the natural world that is there in front of me. I had controlled this out of fear of it, it is really very mysterious. There's a symphony around us we ignore. Animals are more in tune to it. Sometimes I think that is the cause of people and their anxiety. They spend a lot of time making a cage for themselves with social interactions. I think we need time to be the natural animals we are. Anyhow, that is my perception of it.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 19, 2002.

The last thing I mean to do is encourage a life of drug use, even with how I learned things under that influence. I could never take LSD, I don't like the idea of something making me see things. Too scary. I was amazed at my thought process when high, but you can't live high all the time, and there are better ways to 'evolve' mentally. The original post I was going to put here was something like, 'the abyss between the pipe and God is deep, and more find it than God' but aack! way too preachy.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 19, 2002.

Paul, you mentioned a book called Techgnosis. It seemed very interesting to me, so I researched it a little. It is written by Erik Davis, subtitled Myth Magic and Mysticism in the age of information, but it evidently is very complicated. Have you read it? In this book he cites a group in California known as the Extropians, who believe one day it will be possible to download the essence of the human mind into a computer, thereby achieving immortality. He suggests this has elements to compare with the Christian belief in the afterlife. He argues this spiritual feeling is a high-tech update of gnosis, an early Christian belief, hence the title and the word Techgnosis for its modern equivalent. To quote Davis, "Techgnosis is a kind of information age update of gnosticism a Christian heresy in which believers rejected the world of matter and yearned for gnosis, a flash of trancendent illuminination in which individuals cast off the body and ascended to the real world of the spirit". I recently heard a show where they spoke of the use of computer chips that can be implanted in the brain that allows the brain to extend its knowledge beyond human capacity presently, then they will have found a new 'drug as sacramant'. It may shed light, but who will this new 'drug' be safe with? I think that's the question we all are having difficulty with, with the use of LSD or any other drug.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 25, 2002.

Wow. Galaxies are colliding; intriguing. Thanks, Paul. Will definitely look for it.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 27, 2002.

37 with no dog days.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), March 31, 2002.

Paul. How on frickin earth can you be 21, (or 4 in canine years) and I'm 37 (or 3 in dog years) Yipes, my head hurts from this one.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), April 11, 2002.

Cynical; ever feel you share philospies with Dr. Evil? That would make Logo 'Austin Powers'! Maybe you could send in the femmebots for him to smooth things over. Loved your rap, baby.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), April 20, 2002.

Dr. Evil; here's your 'bone', a copy of that cool rap and poignant rap of yours...

"THIS IS A VERY SENSITIVE SUBJECT;

From the moment I heard Frau...say I had a clone...I knew I'd be safe cause I'd never be alone. An Evil Doctor shouldn't speak a lot about his feelings-my hurt and my pain don't make me too appealing. I thought Scott...would look up to me...Run the business of the fam-il- y. Have an empire just like his dear old dad, gave him my love and the things I never had. Scott would think...I was a COOL guy...return the love I had...make me want to cry. Be EVIL...but help my feelings too. Change my life with Oprah and Maya Angelou. But Scott rejected me! "Se la vie" Life is cruel, treats you unfairly. Even so...a God there must be...Minnie me-you complete me. "Just the two of us, we can make it if we try, Just the two of us, you and I".

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), April 27, 2002.

Well this column may have gone to bloody hell here but at least MY pussy's not shaved.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), May 01, 2002.

'Is there some unspeakable horror at the base of all existence?' and 'is there a higher reality?' the very questions I've been asking put so succinctly. Life gives tantalizing peeps to the answers of these elusive questions in strange ways; in all of mankinds history there are reported stories of the existence of strangeness beyond our grasp of reality. Ghosts, time warps, flashes of inexplicable evil behavior by all of mankind, like the appearance of sudden horrific nonsensical murderous rages (9/11; Hitler, Ho Chi Minh) by the invention of weapons of mass destruction by several unconnected persons at the same time in history, (the bomb, television (haha)) humans born with a higher intellect than we can account for, Einstein; Jesus to name only two. Wow, I loved Chronophasia's dreamlike ruminations with Aeon as a kind of 'Alice in Kalodin',and I'm glad to see it didn't destroy your sense of humor, (just maybe a heel or two).

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), May 07, 2002.

Logo, 'clean' doesn't qualify one to be an art critic, (Btw LSD is not habit forming). As for the arts I'll name ones who had addictions and still gave to the world their gifts of tremendous talent showing it's not a hinderance to produce art with only minimal aquaintance with substances: Edgar Allen Poe (heroin) John Barrymore (alcohol) Steinbeck (alcohol) Van Gogh (alcohol and overuse of digitalis) Stan Getz (heroin) Judy Garland (benzodiazepines) Richard Prior (crystal meth) Truman Capote - heck don't even go there...art is about talent and expression and can't be judged on the personal life of the artist. Peter Gaffney, as the writer of Chronophasia, is one of those rare deep thinkers out there and we're lucky he turned his attentions to an episode of Aeon Flux to express himself otherwise it's Dragonballs all around. Recognition of great art doesn't necessarily mean you have to have lived the same life as the artist, if it did then the world would be severely limited. It's good not to do drugs but it doesn't have anything to do with valuable artistic expression.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), May 07, 2002.

I've never done Lsd, or any hallucinogenics but I love the general mysterious enigma of the episode and the thoughts within. As for my list it is said the stars in Starry night swirl because Van Gogh may have actually seen them that way due to an overdose of digitalis, the 1800's didn't have the refined ability to measure drugs as we do today. Steinbeck's big thing was being macho and in his day drinking went with that image. Garland's whole abilitiy to penetrate the depths of the blues with her voice prob had something to do with those benny's. Oh, I've been informed by a friend of mine that Prior was into smoking crack cocaine and crystal meth is more a cheaper mans high. I'm not advocating substance usage, it's just that an good artist expresses himself and sometimes this is their path. He admitted to thinking thoughts about the nature of our existence somewhere between the age of 6 to 12, it's not everyone who thinks on that level. Turning it around and writing an insightful piece of fiction from the prompting of a drug doesn't mean everyone taking that drug will have the same quality of response.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), May 07, 2002.

Trypsys, (hmm that name...) as far as the thought 'is there a horror at the base of all existence' I have wondered that too. That Chronophasia had that as a central theme really is fascinating, I'd love to know if still toy with the idea. I myself turn it over in my mind, because of the evidence of men being so evil at times. Are we actually capable of that strange malevolence on our own or are we influenced. Without sounding simplistic what if it is just that there is some black force out there that we can't fathom. Some people believe in astrology. Stars and planets as an influence but yet consider this unlikely. I think it takes courage to see the possiblity.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), May 10, 2002.

Tell us about your father, RD Laing...Was he a writer? A philosopher? How does he tie in to this? Fascinating, as Spock would say.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), August 04, 2002.

While driving back from San Diego this week listening to Bowie's 'Ashes to Ashes' I was surprised to hear his lyric about 'no smoking crystal', I guess crystal meth is not considered a cheap man's high after all. BTW; If you're familiar with 'Major Tom' this song was the sequel (or cdquel).

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), August 10, 2002.

Well I loved Chronophasia, and I don't think it was heavy handed at all, but did have a kind of trancy-romancy comic fancy going there that was really memorable, what with floating in and out of the thread of the story. As for R.D. Laing-yeah, that site is pretty interesting, (I've had flashbacks for days!!!)--a counterculture icon in Britain you say? My question is to his son Charles Laing, so tell us; did you like Aeon Flux, what were YOUR thoughts on Chronophasia? I'd like to hear that for sure.

-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), August 13, 2002.

I got this in my mail yesterday, I don't know why it was sent the products are unsolicited by moi...

Subject: What have you been smokin'?

From: fyvdv@ci.uminho.pt ('Doc')

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Please Note: Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm) is an absolutely legal, herba/botanical, "Personal Choice," loose-leaf substantiality smoking product! No included botanical factor therein is regulated by law or considered to be harmful by regulatory agencies. There is no tobacco in Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm). There is certainly no cannabis/marijuana in Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm). And although we are not age-governed by law, Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm) is intended exclusively for sophisticated adult usage! Subsequently, it is our MANDATORY ethical policy that Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm) may not be sold, offered, or given to any person that has not attained at least twenty-one years of age. As well, Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm) is not intended for use during work or while driving. It should not be enjoyed during pregnancy nor is it intended to supercede physician's care in any regard.

Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety) (tm), factored in an Absinthium Labyrinthine Configuration, is an exclusive, kiffened, loose-leaf, primo modino, Sensitive/Responsive, Smoking and/or Brewing Herba which may be, depending upon preference, rolled or bowled or brewed.

As is an herbalist’s way, three or four draws of Smoke should be inhaled and retained. For the non-smoker, it is most appropriate to engage this herba as a potentiated tea/brew. (Steep approximately one tea-spoon of Stoney Mahoney herba per one cup of water for ten minutes or so & strain.) When smoking Stoney Mahoney, please draw gently as Stoney Mahoney is a most preeminent smoke and may be considered to be a harsh draw to the uninitiated practitioner. (Water-pipe is included with each package of Stoney Mahoney (Jester Variety), for smoother smoking.)

Stoney Mahoney contains and is kiffened with the following exotica botanicals and botanical extracts & essences: Dutch Lactuca virosa, Bulgarian Artemisia absinthum (flowering-tops only), Yucatan Turnera aphrodisaca, Chinese Valeriana ceae, Jamaican Verbena officinalis, Spanish Peumus boldo, and European (flowering-tops only) Sarothamnus Scoparius. Stoney Mahoney does not include any tobacco or any cannabis factors...Stoney Mahoney achieves distinction upon its own merit....

************************************ ************************************

We offer other fine herbal, botanical products including the following:

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2. "Seventh Heaven" Prosaka Tablets (tm); a botanical alternative to pharmaceutical medications for calm, balance, serenity and joyful living ...

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3. STONEY MAHONEY (tm) Jester Variety Loose Leaf One - 2 oz. package $150.00 Two - 2 oz. packages $225.00 Each 2 oz. package of Stoney Mahoney includes 1 pkg. of clipped-rolling papers, a traditional herb pipe & a brass, personal water-pipe (hookah).

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-- Barb e. (Suesuesbeo9@cs.com), August 25, 2002.

That's a really interesting interpretation (and it seems to fit very well), but it's not what I'd go with. At least, I don't think it's what was intended by the writers.

As for the boy's appearance, I think he was designed to appear physically similar to Aeon. But you're right, he does seem to represent a more ancient, "deeper"... something. (And yet, on the other hand, he's also quite alien -- if I had to decide, I'd say he was something completely external from humanity.)

-- Mat Rebholz (matrebholz@yahoo.com), March 11, 2002.

I always thought he looked asian.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 11, 2002.

I thought I read somewhere that the liquid Aeon wakes up in was originally blood but MTV changed it to a mysterious liquid.

Any truth to that?

-- M-ACE (m-ace@centralwow.com), March 11, 2002.

In my opinion, the boy's character is based on either an Indian boy or an Asian boy. It is held by most historians that ancient Asians migrated into North America through Alaska. Those were the first Americans, and the forefathers of the Navajo, Aztec, Inca, etc. I believe that's why there are so many physical similarities between Asians and Indians. Anyways, Mat, my theory is limited in that it only explains why the virus is actually a representation for LSD. I don't have any answers for the rest of the episode, namely the baby. The best that I can guess is that it represents our primal human past. I think that this ties in with the ancient boy. There is definitely more to the baby, however, I really like the theory about it relating to Aeon's maternal instincts. That ties in with the boy's apparent desire for a mother, and of course, the highly ironic scene at the end.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 11, 2002.

(in best Elvis impersonation) Why thank you, thank you very much. I'm just kidding, I'm glad that you liked my interpretation. This episode has always hit home for me. I don't do drugs anymore, but I don't have any regrets about the times when I did. Using LSD and smoking marijuana have definitely helped me to learn more about myself. But it's impossible to do drugs on a regular basis and function normally in society. And insanity, I believe, is a very subjective term. If an ancient human were suddenly thrown into today's society, he would very likely be classified as insane. By the same token, many of the regular things that we do in today's society would likely be viewed as insane as well. That is my own idea and opinion, but I have to cite Trevor's speech in "End Sinister" for helping me to express it. To me that speech is an extremely strong statement for why insanity is a very subjective term. I also think that the scene in "Natural Born Killers", when they go to the Indian man's house, is a very powerful expression of that concept. I think that is also ties into your question about the virus being part of our natural makeup. There aren't too many scientific explanations for the effects of psychedelics, but from what I've read and studied, man-made drugs such as LSD work much in the same way that peyote, mushrooms, even marijuana all work. That is to say that they all affect and manipulate a certain and common part of the brain. So by today's terms, it might be said that the ancient Indians were all tripping out, and here we go again, insane. But in today's society of television, greed, and senseless, indiscriminate violence, we have a different definition of insanity. Clearly, humans today are vastly different then our ancestors, and to experience life like they did, and to feel like they did, we have to stimulate our brains with outside substances. So what was natural for them, for us can only be accomplished by the ingestion of exterior, brain-stimulating chemicals. I hope that I'm making sense, and I hope that I've helped you with your question. Like I said Barb, I'm glad that you like my interpretation. So, what part of the country are you from? Part-Sioux with red hair, huh? I must say that that sounds very nice, when can I call you? :) No, I'm j/k, I'm glad that you like my theory, thanks for posting. Email me sometime, I would really like to hear some of your own theories about ol' Aeon.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 12, 2002.

That is to say, Ms. Aeon Flux, our most revered heroine.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 12, 2002.

The most insane thing about our society is that alcohol, a very potent and addictive drug, and tobacco are completely legal, yet most other drugs are illegal. Then there are all the perfectyly legal prescription and over the counter drugs that screw with you. Niquil anyone? The only logic to it seems to be historical precedent. Our ancestors were all heavy smokers and drinkers, but pychotropic substances were relatively unknown, or at least not very popular, for whatever reason. When we say our ancestors, that can mean completely different things depending on who you are, obviously, but I don't think it's necessary to take drugs to find out how they lived. Just go live in the woods, eating what you kill, to find out what life was like thousands of years ago. You probably won't like it very much because it's a very difficult life to lead after getting used to modern technology. My guess is they felt it was pretty difficult back then too, which is why they may have done drugs to escape from reality. The truth is that people have always liked getting high (or drunk, or buzzed), and they always will. To ancient people, the weird perceptions induced by natural drugs like peyote, hashish, opium, animal venom, etc, would have been explained as divine because they didn't know anything about brain chemistry and neuroscience. I don't think it's any different from the way they thought spirits were in the natural world as a way to explain rain, earthquakes, day and night, etc.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 12, 2002.

Well said.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 14, 2002.

I totally agree Barb. The problem with LSD, and I believe, the reason for its psychotic side effects, is that it's a chemical which was originally, and continues to be, synthesized in a lab. It's a man-made chemical that may be based on natural psychedelics, such as peyote, mushrooms (psilocybin), and marijuana, but it's man-made nonetheless. Natural psychedelics do not cause the same degree of permanent psychosis that LSD does. That's why Trevor singles it out by saying that "this particular strain of the virus" is known to cause psychosis and permanent insanity. This particular strain, which is made in a lab, causes permanent psychosis, as well as numerous casualties, the actual word that Trevor uses to describe the corpses. I believe that this is a reference to the term "acid casualty". This is a term that is not used very much these days, but one that was very popular in the 60's and 70's. One of the better examples I think, is Syd Barrett from the original Pink Floyd. I've heard him referred to as the most famous, (and tragic) acid casualty in London. Anyways, I've gone way off on a tangent here, I really like what you said Barb, I think that doing what you're talking about is actually the most sane thing that we can do. The insanity comes in when we have to return to our normal lives. When we go back to "normality" and realize just how insane it really is, and we realize what our society has become, that's when the psychosis comes in.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 14, 2002.

Barb, I really like your views, and I respect your right not to use drugs, but I just want to go on the record as saying that I am very much in favor of the use of natural substances such as marijuana, mushrooms, and peyote. These plants all grow from the earth, and they were put here for a reason, just like carrots were, or say, aspirin, or strawberries. You get the picture, all the millions of plants that we use on a daily basis are all part of our own life cycle. Using plants like marijuana help us to connect with the earth, which keeps the cycle going. We as humans have a symbiotic relationship with the earth, and using these substances helps us to, for a little while anyways, actually feel the forces of the universe, forces which are far greater than ourselves. Logo, I have to ask you, have you ever tried any of these substances, LSD included? You don't sound like someone who has. What race or nationality are you? You sound like you're of Western European descent. I've already told you that I'm Mexican-American and Yaqui Indian. God knows that we Mexicans love to drink and smoke, one thing that we surely have in common with Europeans. But while your ancestors may not have known about psychotropic substances, my ancestors have been using them for millenia. They did not only use them to get high, they used them for the reasons that I stated above. It's pretty clear to me that you've never experienced this, so I don't expect you to understand what I'm talking about. That's okay though, how old are you? It's never too late.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 15, 2002.

AD

It's the middle of the night. A Breen is in bed aimlessly channel surfing. He cycles past local news, sports, political commentary, economic news, violent movies, soft core pornography. He pauses briefly on the soft core pornography. Moans of pleasure emanate from the TV. He moves on. Eventually coming to the Breen Shopping Channel he is struck by Trevor's unusual presence and ceases his aimless clicking, his interest now piqued. A well dressed Trevor Goodchild is standing on a naked stage. A pretty young women in slightly beatified Breen military garb is situated slighly behind him, her face beaming with joy, or stupidity. Before Trevor sits a massive audience of Breen citizens patiently awaiting to be informed of the latest breakthroughs and greatest deals.

Trevor: "We have a fabulous deal for you today, my fellow citizens. Simply wonderful."

The girl sidles up to Trevor, keen with interest and sqeels in his ear.

Girl: "Oh what could it be Trev."

Trevor: "Simply the most shining example of Breen ingenuity since the Custodean."

A gentle murmer creeps through the audience. Some are seen nodding in blind agreement, while snippets of conversation between others reveal confusion.

"What's a Custodean?" "I don't remember hearing anything about a Custodean?" "I wonder what a Custodean does?" "I don't know, but gosh I feel great today."

Trevor: "Yes, that's correct my fellow Breens. A new miracle of modern technology. Are you stuck in a rut? Out of touch with your fellow Breen? Feel like you have no control over your life?"

Murmers of agreement wafts up from the audience.

Trevor: "Well my friends... I hold the secret to your salvation in the palm of my hand. Will you take it?"

As he speaks, Trevor walks to the edge of the stage and reaches into his breast pocket. He removes a small vial of liquid, no larger than a bullet and reaches out his palm to the audience. An awed hush falls over the crowd. The people are spellbound, all eyes, wide with wonder, are afixed to Trevor's oustretched hand. A faint smile creeps across Trevor's lips.

Girl: [squeeling] "Ooh Trev what's that? It looks yummy."

Tevor: "This, my dear, is eternal happiness incarnate. It is compressed cosmic unity. It is karmic realignment in liquid form, It is called Ambrosia."

Girl: [squeeling and clamboring all over Trevor] "Oh I want it, I want it, I want it, I want it, I want it."

Trevor: "Patience my dear."

Trevor gently but firmly places his hands on her shoulders to calm her. Turning back to the audience, the camera zooms in on his face.

Trevor: "One vial can now be yours for just four easy payments of $49.95."

Trevor hands the vial over to the girl and she immediately sqeels in delight, hugs hum passionately, and begins dancing around the stage like a little girl.

After hearing the price though, the audience boos and each person simultaneously pushes a red button on a control panel in front of their seat. A loud buzzer goes off and the blisfully ignorant girl disappears through a hole in the floor that has suddenly appeared beneath her dreamily dancing figure. After a brief pause a dull thud is heard and the trap door snaps shut again while simultaneously a massive sword appears gently swaying by a thin string directly above Trevor's position on the stage. Tevor frowns.

Tevor: "Clearly I've insulted such an intellectual audience. If you act now, true enlightenment can be yours for a total of just $89.95."

The crowd boos again and the grinding of gears is heard somewhere off stage. A pair of scissors extends dangerously close to the string from which the sword is hanging. At the same time, a leather clad midget, complete with face mask and muzzle, darts out from stage left on all fours and snarling madly. It gets perilously close to Trevor but is jerked back violently by the leash around its neck and goes tumbling to the floor while frothy saliva flies up into the air from its snarling jaws. While it is momentarily dazed, a team of handlers immediately rushes out with cattle prods and shocks it into submission long enough to remove the muzzle and beat a frantic retreat. Now free of its secondary restraint, the little creature begins snarling at Trevor with renewed furvor, the leash staying taught with its blind fury. Trevor looks on impassively.

Trevor: [with a sardonic grin] "I have spoken rather impetuously haven't I. But now, for a limited time only, the sublime can be yours to consume for the rock bottom price of $24.95. And I'll throw in two more vials absolutely free.

With a flourish Trevor removes three vials from his breast pocket and holds them between his fingers for the audience to see. A cheer explodes from the crowd and simultaneoulsy all fingers hit the green button on their consoles. The scissors above Trevor's head snap shut and the instrument of death plummets to the stage below. It buries itself in the chest of the snarling beast, who yelps in shock, and pins him to the stage floor like a scientific specimen in some grotesque exhibition. It's limbs contorted in the agony of its final death throws, a tiny reservoir of blood bubbles out of its gaping maw as it futiley gasps for breath. All look on fascinated, except for Trevor who's eyes never move from the now submissive throng. A final roar bursts forth from the crowd and a surge of hands instantly flies into the air waiving bills while their owners shout madly for the honor of being the first to ride the crest of this new wave of Breen evolution.

The end music plays and the credits role which include the usual list of organ centers and servitudinal counselors for those with cash flow deficiencies. The man turn off the TV and slowly drifts off to sleep, his mind already calculating the hours of state servitude he will have to register for to afford a month's supply of Ambrosia.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 15, 2002.

That's a wonderful story, you never answered my question though. That's okay, keep writing, you're pretty good.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 15, 2002.

The hardest drugs I've ever done are tobacco and alcohol. And I don't smoke or drink. And the only way that I'd do any harder drugs is if I hit rock bottom one day and just didn't care anymore. I like my brain and I don't plan on destroying it with harmful chemicals that have no value other than to distort my perceptions and provide some escapism for a brief period of time. But if you're into that sort thing that's alright. Everyone's got a reason for the things they do so... I so still disagree with the idea of taking drugs to get back to your roots. If you wan't to learn about where you come from then pick up a book or go talk to your elders, you don't have to trip out. Like I said before I think people just enjoy getting high for the sake of getting high. I understand that a lot of artists and thinkers use drugs to put their minds in a state where they can make more connections and become more creative, but in my view that's kind of a crutch. And it also completely fails to address the addictive nature of what they are doing, and seems like a form of repression. It's a fact that people get high to forget their problems. For example, here in New York after 9/11 the restaurant industry reported a huge increase in alcohol intake. People drank and partied to forget their problems not to experience any kind of unity with their lost loved ones.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 15, 2002.

Logo, you have every right to do whatever you like, but if you've never experienced this, then you are not qualified to speak on the subject. You can write stories until your hand hurts, or you can state your ill-informed opinions all you like, but everything that you say means nothing because there is no basis to it. It's clear that you don't know what you're talking about, because you group all drugs together, as if smoking crack rocks were the same thing as enjoying a joint. I don't blame you for that, you just don't know, it's not your fault. But like I said, you have no basis to speak on any of this, so I'll stop there. You do write well, however, that is a really pretty story. I like how you make Trevor out to be a crack dealer. I agree that mind control is a big part of Trevor's character, but there's a little more to him than peddling crack. What you don't, and can't, understand, is that Trevor really believed in this virus. All I ask is that you please don't insult him, he's more than a crack dealer. It is a pretty story though, keep it up.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

Salomon, by the way is there a shorter name I can call you, like Sal? Anyway, unlike many experiences in life, I don't think one actually has to take drugs to be qualified to comment on their ill effects. One just has to look around. Probably everybody knows someone who has at least tried drugs and in some cases battled with an addiction problem. It's usually not pretty. And if drugs are so great, why is there so much media coverage devoted to anti-drug messages? Is it al just one big lie? Are drugs really the solution to society's problems? I don't think so. That being said though, I think people should always have a choice about what they want to do with their lives as long as they are given enough information to make a well- informed choice. I also realize that, experience wise, there is a big difference between a bong hit and shooting up with heroin, but they all do the same thing: FUCK WITH YOUR BRAIN CHEMISTRY. "Natural" psychotropic substances were not put on this earth for humans to use them. They are simply there and humans found out that they could get pretty fucked up if they used them. They also found out that in large doses those same substances would invariably kill them, so one has to wonder how beneficial they really are seeing as how the body has no need for them.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 16, 2002.

First of all "Logo", my name is Salomon. What's your name? I think I'll just call you Log. Anyways Log, I've grown weary of arguing with you. You have no basis to speak on this subject, and that much has been made very clear by your arguments. You do seem like a bright kid though, so I'll give you a quick lesson. First of all, quit grouping everything together, as if alcohol were the same thing as heroin, and as if marijuana were the same thing as crack. They're not the same. Second, of course drugs fuck with your brain chemistry. Everyone knows that, but marijuana works in different ways than alcohol, than caffeine, than heroin, than nicotine, than cocaine. I think you get the picture. I agree with you that science is a great thing, in fact I'm scheduled to receive my Bachelor's degree in Psychology in May, but the fact is that modern science is at a complete loss to explain the effects of psychedelics on the brain. We do know that they affect certain neurotransmitters, for example, serotonin. And through EEG's, and PET scans, etc., we've witnessed that certain parts of the brain show activity while under the influence, when normally they do not. But all of this still does not explain anything. The fact is that you have to experience it to fully understand it. That's why I don't blame you for not being able to understand this. But I can tell that you're an intelligent kid, so I hope that I've been able to help you. Anyways, take care, if you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

What are you talking about. Modern science is well on its way toward explaining how these substances affect the brain. First of all the scans you mentioned; EEG, PET, MRI etc., are more useful when studied over time. They show a marked decrease in the brain activity of drug abusers over extended periods of time. In fact, the difference is so pronounced that people not even skilled in reading the scans can immediately tell that something is wrong. Second of all, there has been a great deal of research done on how these drugs affect neurotransmitters and their reuptake channels. Things like seratonin, acetylcholine, acetycoline esterase, GABBA neurons, dopamine receptors; the list goes on and on and it is expanding everyday. We do not have a complete picture, but we a good idea of how these drugs operate based on what specific neurotransmitters they interact with and, I repeat, the effects they have over time, which are really quite profound. So you see I do know a little something about it without ever having taken drugs, and your claim that you have to take drugs to truly understand them is ridiculous. Do you actually propose that you, as a former(?) drug user, have all the answers to the questions that modern science is grapling with where drugs are concerned?

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 16, 2002.

You're definitely a funny kid. First of all, you keep talking about "drugs" as if every one was the same. I'm sick of explaining that one to you. Second, I'm the one who started talking about neurotransmitters and brain scans. What's funny is that you take my ideas and say them back to me as if they were your own, and I'm supposed to be taken aback by them. However, I don't doubt for a second that you do know about all that stuff, anyone can pick up a book, and read all they want about it. So go ahead and recite all that you've learned in class or wherever, I've actually studied this, so you don't have anything new to tell me. And sorry, but the fact is that until you've experienced this, then you really can't say anything to me. Sorry. And finally, I never said that I had all the answers, in fact I said the opposite. I said that science cannot explain the psychological effects of psychedelics. We can study neurotransmitters and brain activity all we want, but it still doesn't explain anything. Spiritual experiences cannot be categorized or quantified. By the way, it is true that drugs such as alcohol lead to brain diseases such as Korsakoff's syndrome, marijuana leads to decreased memory, and crack leads to serious brain damage. But sorry to break it to you, studies on psychedelics show increased brain activity, not decreased activity. And there is evidence to indicate that they might actually extend one's lifetime. So that's it, I'm done, I don't need to explain myself to you any longer. Feel free to have the last word, knock yourself out. I'm sorry if I ruined anything for you, such as bringing to your attention that the creators of your favorite show probably are or were drug users. Anyways, take care, and good luck.

-- Salomon F. Baldenegro (arizonacats76@msn.com), March 16, 2002.

High Times man of the year ladies and gentlemen. Seriously though, I'd like to know who funded the research that says drugs are beneficial, they probably also know where to get the lowest prices. As for ruining the show for me, don't flatter yourself. I think a normal first reaction to anyone wathching this show, especially an episode like Chronophasia, is "what were these guys on?" And if you've ever read dangerboy's posts you'll see just how tripped out at least one of the show's writers is. If they do drugs to be more creative then whatever, but for you to claim that drugs bring us closer to God, well, you sound a lot like the Trevor in my story.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 16, 2002.

The only drugs I've used are marijuana, alcohol and caffeine. And of the three, pot had the most subtle and innocuous effect. In other parts of the world, our attitudes toward this drug are a joke. Even the law-and-order Brits have downgraded it to a class B substance; you can walk down the street puffing a joint and not be bothered (at least from the accounts of one British friend). Meanwhile in the US, we're about to ban the use of hemp seeds, an incredible source of protein and essential fatty acids, in food. I have to say Logo, that if you believe everything the government does is for our own good, then you are incredibly naive. As far as using drugs as a tool to experience the divine... well why not? The drug-as-sacrament is just as legitimate as the drug-as-creative aid. Whether the things you perceive under the influence are figments of the imagination, or just there waiting to be seen by someone under the influence, is all a matter of interpretation. If you had an imaginary friend as a child, can you say for certain that he/she was not a distant ancestor of yours... or past life, or a person living in a different part of the world that you were speaking telepathically with? You can't. That's a pretty extreme example; but my point is that the electrical activity in your brain when talking to your "imaginary friend" is not necessarily the sum total of the experience. Here's another one: if an animal that can only see in red looks at a tree, it'll be red. If we look at a tree, it'll be many different shades of brown. If we look at a tree on acid, maybe it'll be brown, and orange, and sort of flourescent purplish... so, are we fucked up and hallucinating, or does the tree actually contain colors we don't normally percieve? Maybe a little of both? You see where the difficulty lies in talking about these altered modes of perception.

-- Inukko (paul@nadisrec.com), March 16, 2002.

BTW, programmers at Apple used to take LSD to get a better picture of the circuits. If you're typing this on a Mac, you're using a hallucination ;-)

-- Inukko (paul@nadisrec.com), March 16, 2002.

For the last time, I never catergorically said that people should not do drugs. I simply said that if they do do them they should be fully aware of the risks; just in the same way cigarettes now come with a warning label. I certainly don't believe the government is always acting in our best interest Inukko. Just go "the purge" thread to read my views on government control. And as I stated earlier, I believe people should be free to kill themselves with drugs if that's what they want, but you're just as naive if you believe that pot being legalized in England somehow changes the fact that it has negative health effects. Last I checked, alcohol and cigarettes are still perfectly legal in this country, but we all know that beer kills brain cells and that tobacco causes cancer. Legalize everything I say, just keep the public informed about the risks. Why they then choose to do drugs is nobody's business but their own.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 18, 2002.

Believe it or not, but I don't even have problem with "drug as sacrament" as Inukko put it. It just seems to me that if you were in search of some kind of cosmic truths or spiritual rebirth that the act of taking drugs would only obscure the experience. How would you know if what you saw was real or just a manifestation of the drug? If you could have that experience without the drug wouldn't that make it more real? The idea of drug as sacrament is kind of funny though if you take it literally. Catholics already get wafers and booze, imagine how many asses they could put in the seats if they gave out dope so that people could do lines in the pews. I bet you'd see some real religious revivalism then; the whole congregation shouting in unison "I see Jesus, I see Him." Sunday's couldn't come fast enough.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 18, 2002.

--Legalize everything I say, just keep the public informed about the risks. Why they then choose to do drugs is nobody's business but their own.

You have to take into account what happens when drug addicts start robbing and killing in order to feed their habit. And have a little sympathy for the people. Remember what it was like when you were on that diet yet couldn't resist that last piece of cake, then quadruple that.

--BTW, programmers at Apple used to take LSD to get a better picture of the circuits. If you're typing this on a Mac, you're using a hallucination ;-)

Really?

-- Kristine Rooks (krooks@bellsouth.net), March 18, 2002.

I actually did a report on LSD; Salomon is right, Logo. LSD does not take away experiences, but adds them. If you drive on the highway on LSD, things aren't taken away -you don't miss anything-, but you DO get things superimposed upon reality. The best example is looking out the window at night. Inside the house, you have a fire going on in the fireplace. When you look outside, you can see the outside, but you also see the glow of the furnace reflected in the glass -on top of reality. Can you be enlightened from this glow? Well, that's up for debate. Many different minds interpret heterogenious experiences differently. People on LSD actually see repetitive images, what the eye sees gets shot back to the visual cortex and the image receptors begin to overlay information. LSD does trip you out, but it is not a stoned-out kind of trip. It is congnitive, symmetrical, additive kind of drug -people who say "they're flying" actually feel that they are -their reality is being distorted and to the individual -that is reality. They are still rational, they are just experiencing a kind of reality that seems illogical. Though I've never taken the drug myself, I can say that our language has not evolved enough to describe such experiences. And, I'm not talking about drug-related experiences, I'm talking about any kind of experience -walking on the moon, having an orgasm, almost dying, etc. Just adding some unbiased info here -I don't intend to supress any opinions here.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), March 18, 2002.

What are you talking about. Modern science is well on its way toward explaining how these substances affect the brain. First of all the scans you mentioned; EEG, PET, MRI etc., are more useful when studied over time. -Logo

But this is inaccurate. Even scans up to 8 channels of the brain won't give you a clear understanding of what is going on. An EEG, PET, MRI or whatever will give you a reading, but you cannot come to a logical conclusion from THAT alone. A neuroscientist may look at a scan and say, "Oh, this man was writing a letter" when in fact, the subject was writting numbers, jibberish, or just scribbling. It may measure a specific motor task or cognitive process, but we still cannot extract an objective experience from a subjective one; IE Two people on a rollercoaster - one is terrified, one is euphoric. Their brain scans reveal two totally different environments being experienced, yet they undergoing the same reality. That is one of the enduring problems of neuroscaning -it could be anything; it could be everything.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), March 18, 2002.

"By the way, it is true that drugs such as alcohol lead to brain diseases such as Korsakoff's syndrome, marijuana leads to decreased memory, and crack leads to serious brain damage. But sorry to break it to you, studies on psychedelics show increased brain activity, not decreased activity. And there is evidence to indicate that they might actually extend one's lifetime." -Salomon

I was unaware. Is the increased brain activity due to the wearing of the receptors? And how is that increased activity reflected in the subject's behavior? (I'm not asking to annoy you, I'm asking because I'm actually interested and would like to know. Please respond if Logo hasn't already bullied you away.)

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), March 18, 2002.

"Here's another one: if an animal that can only see in red looks at a tree, it'll be red. If we look at a tree, it'll be many different shades of brown. If we look at a tree on acid, maybe it'll be brown, and orange, and sort of flourescent purplish... so, are we fucked up and hallucinating, or does the tree actually contain colors we don't normally percieve? Maybe a little of both? You see where the difficulty lies in talking about these altered modes of perception." - Innuko

That's a truly wonderful example, nuko. I've always wondered that myself. Have you ever thought about the compound eyes of a fly or a bee? I've always wondered what it might look like through those eyes and I finally saw a picture of what it might look like -but it turns out I was mistaken. It was actually a picture of a hive, comprised of many hexagons. I suppose when a bee looks at it, it might come out looking like something else. I find it amazing how they are still able to make it perfectly symmetrical. Heh, maybe they see squares instead of hexagons =)

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), March 18, 2002.

"how would you know if what you saw was real or just a manifestation of the drug?"

My point exactly. Keep in mind that by drug I mean psychedelic -- as far as I know, doing lines isn't a very spiritual experience. If that spiritual feeling can be acheived without drugs, then don't use any drugs; but if you're opposed to the use of "shortcuts", I would suggest not sleeping as well, as people who fast and meditate sleep very little. I think there's nothing wrong with a little instant enlightenment to liven up the journey.

Health risks of marijuana? I'd like to know what you mean. Marijuana smoke does not cause lung cancer or heart disease. It is not refined like cigarettes are, nor is it physically addictive. It should be obvious that smoking too much of *anything* is not a good idea; however, the Indians smoked unrefined tobacco, a harsher substance than marijuana, for years with no ill effect. Our cultural attitudes toward this drug are bizarre and outdated. I've smoked and it didn't make me lazy, gluttonous, or out of touch with reality. It didn't cause me to have heart palpitations, paranoid delusions, or turn into a sex maniac. All it did was make me a little more human.

-- Inukko (paul@nadisrec.com), March 18, 2002.

Kristine, I can't seem to find the passage in question, but here's a quote from the book Techgnosis:

"In 1968, Marshall McLuhan prophesied that "the computer is the LSD of the business world". But in today's Silicon Valley and San Francisco's multimedia gulch, computers plus LSD sometimes seems like the formula for success. For years, Apple bought Grateful Dead tickets for employees at the end of the year, and the band's tie- dyed iconography could even be spotted at the NASA-Ames military research facility in Mountain View, a home for hard-core virtual reality research. In a 1991 GQ article, Walter Kirn reports on the industry's "no sweat attitude towards chemical recreation", noting that Intel and other major corporations apparently give employees plenty of advance warning for the urine tests they are required to take. Moreover, most psychedelics cannot be traced in such screenings -- almost an argument-by-design for their use as R&D enhancers. Kirn points out that Silicon Valley's corporate heads didn't just come to accommodate the fact the many of their most brilliant employees liked to gobble weird drugs -- they also realized that "weirdness can be an export commodity". Experienced and intelligent trippers are often characterized by a fluid sense of perception, a willingness to tinker with cognitive structures, and a sensitivity to what Gregory Bateson called "the pattern that connects" -- just the kind of mental gymnastics that come in handy when you're crafting the giddy complexities of information space"

Kind of gives a different meaning to "Intel Inside"...

-- Inukko (paul@nadisrec.com), March 18, 2002.

There's a lot to talk about here. I guess Salomon should be thanked for introducing such a hot topic when the forum seemed to be lagging so; that is, if I haven't bullied him away. I should clarify my position on the issue since some people seem to be confused. I never commented on how the effect of a drug is interpreted by the user. That aspect of the experience does not concern me because by its very nature it is undefinable. Barb explains it very well (I would assume), but it will be different for each person. I was simply commenting on the long-biological and neurological effects. These are very definable and very observable. I know that medical scans can tell us which parts of the brain are being used, but not necessarily what they are being used for, but they also show us that over time, repeated use of drugs causes certain parts of the brain to atrophy and malfunction and I consider this to be a very negative effect of drugs despite whatever cool special effects you get when you take them.

That being said, I am curious to know how many people on this forum are or were regular drug users. I'll arbitrarily define drug as any illegal substance, and I'll place regular at at least once a week. I've never even tried anything more powerful that alcohol and the thought of doing so has only crossed my mind a couple of times my whole life, literally. So what's the allure?

Salomon seems to be searching for some kind of spiritual awakening. He's mentioned connectedness with his ancestors a number of times, and since he is a member of a racial minority in this country I can see how finding a sense of identity and one's roots would be especially important.

Barb seems to enjoy it for the feeling it gives her of experiencing the hidden aspects of our daily lives, the silences between the notes so to speak. But why did you start to begin with? And whatever feelings of completeness you get when you are high, don't you find it jarring to return to "reality" when the high wears off?

Lastly, I like your comment, cynical, about the inadequacy of language when it comes to expressing certain experiences. Are you and Barb agreeing or disagreeing, as she seems to think that language is somewhat oppressive (through its overabundance of expression or its inability to express the real?).

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), March 19, 2002.

That’s pretty cool. A shame that it takes a drug to make us notice such things. Barb, you are one smart cookie. Your perceptions are always appreciated on this forum. And much more so in this case because these are portals some of us dare not venture. Your's too Salomon.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), March 19, 2002.

As a chemist and an avid drug user, I don't think aeon was on LSD. Noone passes out on LSD, ever. That particular episode always made me think of sensory deprivation experiments, for some reason.

The reason LSD, pot, alcohol, or whatever make you feel the way they are do is because they are poisons. Your perceptions change as your body metabolizes (gets rid of) the chemical. Many foods do this to a lesser degree (chocolate, indian spices, miso).

Furthermore, you can trip off of an amazing number of chemicals: http://www.erowid.org/archive/hyperreal/drugs/pihkal/ enjoy

-- p s y c h e (spam@greenspan.com), March 21, 2002.

I have read it. It's not difficult, but it is very information-dense; Davis' book is one massive essay on the history of social, psychological, theological and technological structures, and all the various combinations and permutations thereof. If you've slogged through one of Alvin Toffler's books you know what I mean. It is a fascinating read though, with a lot of genuine insight into the ways technology affects our collective consciousness. And it has a snazzy punch-card cover. Definitely seek it out.

-- Inukko (paul@nadisrec.com), March 26, 2002.

Oh, and if you get the chance, watch "Galaxies Are Colliding". I'd be VERY interested to hear what you think of that film.

-- Inu (out of the snow -- for now) (paul@nadisrec.com), March 26, 2002.

Im interested in finding out the ages of any of you past submittion authors.

Care to respond?

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), March 28, 2002.

Woah! Not what I expected when I logged on, but good none the less. I hate pot, all it makes me do is sit, sit, sit:< I like booze, that a drug that makes me more human. Just think you drink like 20oz. of this stuff and it kills "all" you inhabitions. Thats a human, like a child without any of our accumulated emotional baggage. Over do it and well that puts a stop to the more human part, you just get sloppy, you puke, fall around making you more or less infantile rather thatn childlike. As for spiritual life, don't confuse it with chemical sensations. When attempting to interact with god you should have control, and be able to trust what you feel, hear and see.

-- mark (nadar@BigPoppaPump.zzn.com), March 30, 2002.

I'm 21. Four in canine years.

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), March 31, 2002.

I'm 23 in june.

-- Mat Rebholz (matrebholz@yahoo.com), March 31, 2002.

That should have been 3 dog years ;-)

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), March 31, 2002.

I see. everyone here is generally past 20?

p.s. I really enjoy reading such interesting discussions in a thread, especially when it envolves arguments as detailed and imaginative as those between Saloman and Logo.

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), April 06, 2002.

No, I meant I should have been 3 dog years...

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), April 12, 2002.

"p.s. I really enjoy reading such interesting discussions in a thread, especially when it envolves arguments as detailed and imaginative as those between Saloman and Logo." -Sam

Hahaha. D00d!! You should check out the purge thread!! Holy crap, that took sooooo freakin' long. Logo almost flew down here to personally beat the snot out of me!!!!!!!

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), April 15, 2002.

Just out of curiosity, do other people consider me to be the belligerant asshole that cynical does, or it all just in his head? And be honest otherwise I will personnally track you down and beat the snot out of you!

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), April 15, 2002.

By all costs, DO NOT read "the purge" thread. It's the sociological equivalent of a tastes great less filling argument. There is nothing especially original in it, and even when I was writing half of it I was confused by all the topics being discussed. Purge "the purge."

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), April 15, 2002.

I'm just messin' with ya. I'm quite a madman, you realize: I get pleasure from pissing YOU off -just you particularly, Logo. I don't know why. :)

Sorry. I'll stop. No hard feelings -and I just recently mocked you in the Action in Anime thread too -sorry man. I should've read this first, I didn't know my words were being taken seriously. Like... at ALL... I mean... any of it, really... :0

I'm just giving you a hard time. You're kinda like my rival/nemesis. But even still, you shouldn't take me so literally. I'm full of BS. No, really -I'll admit it.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), April 16, 2002.

yeah baby, YEAH!!

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), April 20, 2002.

Throw me a frickin' bone here, people!!

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), April 22, 2002.

Here, you can have mine. It's a little chewed up, but the marrow is intact ^_^

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), April 22, 2002.

- Just out of curiosity, do other people consider me to be the belligerant asshole that cynical does, or it all just in his head? And be honest otherwise I will personnally track you down and beat the snot out of you! - Logo

I "honestly" think your one of the best contributors to this forum.

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), April 22, 2002.

Indeed.

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), April 23, 2002.

Here, here!! *raises glass*

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), April 24, 2002.

Oh lordy... ^_^;;

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), May 02, 2002.

Suh??

Well Barb would have to be another healthy contributor....

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), May 03, 2002.

This thread has certainly taken some interesting turns. I've got to admit that I've yet to read it thoroughly. I do, however, have one strongly-held view which I'd like to impart: I think it would be much easier to read some of these responses if they were broken down into shorter paragraphs. This is only my opinion, and I certainly mean no offense to those who feel otherwise. I believe it is up to each individual to decide what length of paragraph is right for him, and I'll be damned if I'll stand by and let the government or the church or the tyranny of public opinion try to impose a "correct" paragraph length on me.

That being said, I think I can say with some confidence that "Chronophasia" has a lot to do with experiences and intimations which sometimes arise from using LSD. Is time in some sense illusory? Is there some unspeakable horror at the base of all existence? Is life but a dream, and, if so, what could that mean? Is there a "higher" reality?... the kinds of questions and insights that occur to everybody at some point between the ages of six and twelve, but which, under the influence of LSD or in other altered states of consciousness, suddenly seem to take on a whole new dimension. If I hadn't taken LSD I'm sure I never would have written "Chronophasia." On the other hand, if I hadn't taken LSD I wouldn't have jumped out of a second-story window naked and broken both my heels and a wrist.

-- Peter Gaffney (trypsys@hotmail.com), May 07, 2002.

I guess that settles that one then.

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), May 07, 2002.

Maybe the reason I never liked "Chronophasia" much is because I am clean. All the episodes are pretty trippy in some sense or another, but maybe this episode's similarities to the simulatied experiences that drug users take speaks only to other drug users. Sort of a confirmation of their habbit.

-- Logo (Vosepherus@aol.com), May 07, 2002.

I wasn't commenting on the value of the artistic expression Barb. I was simply saying that perhaps you have to have some personal knowledge of these experiences in order to fully appreciate them and thus fully appreciate the episode. Gaffney said that his LSD trips were directly related to the content of the episode and so it would probably increase one's enjoyment/understanding of the episode if one has actually tripped on LSD. As far as I know, most of the artists you mentioned did not produce works so directly related to their drug experienes as Gaffney, and so one's appreciation of their work wouldn't be so much effected by a lack of experience with drugs. I don't think I am stretching things when I say that it enhances our enjoyment of art to have some experience with what is trying to be expressed. But again, what I was really saying is that I just don't get that episode.

-- Logo (vosepherus@aol.com), May 07, 2002.

Chronophasia always struck me as very hallucinogenic, with Aeon absorbing that liquid through her pineal gland, the sudden blackouts, and other strangeness going on throughout that ep. Plus it's ABOUT a drug (well, virus) that distorts perception (nudge nudge, wink wink).

Now a question for Peter: were you influenced by Vonnegut's "Slaughterhouse 5"? I've not read the book, but I've seen the movie (best flick ever, btw), and when Aeon asks "I've died twice; is death just a moment in time?", I couldn't help being reminded of Tralfamador, and Billy Pilgrim's final speech: "and now it's time for me to be dead for a little while, and then live again. I give you the Tralfamadorian greeting: hello, goodbye, hello, goodbye"

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), May 07, 2002.

I agree with Barb, in that drugs sometimes help us see things in different ways. Along with the list that Barb gave, I'd like to add Sigmund Freud who did cocaine. When some people are on drugs, they'll tell you things about the universe -they may think that they have it all figured out; who's to argue? We shouldn't discount views just because they were influenced by virus or drug, by high emotion or lack thereof. We obviously need people to pioneer these drugs because eventually we may need to tap its power. People doing drugs tells us about society; it tells us that one two-week vacation a year isn't enough. It's telling us that a milligram of substance can rearrange the furniture in one's mind. It tells us that reality is how we percieve it.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), May 07, 2002.

In regards to what Logo said, I don't think one needs to have done LSD to understand this epi. The drug could have been anything -it's unimportant. If one has used the drug, I doubt that person would get any MORE out of the epi than you. The alternate reality (or REAL-reality) is what's important. I think you're looking at the epi in a negative light; you're not the odd-man out or anything, I mean, I've never done LSD either. I think it's more like a benefit for us the viewer -a look into the anatomy of an acid trip; a different look at a world within a world within a world. I thought it was enlightening at times -the epi put things in perspective; it made me consider the reality we live in. Tested the limits of logic and impossibility. Hats off to the writers.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), May 07, 2002.

This epi is cool because it tests reality. It seems illogical/impossible but it's actually not so -the only component that seems illogical or impossible is the death and rebirth sequences that take place. But Aeon seems to be "aware" of it now - which is a real trip! I mean, in some episodes Aeon dies and in the next epi she comes back with no explaination. Here we have her dying and coming back IN THE SAME EPI!! And here we have her contemplate it. Only in an environment this engineered can such an epiphany take place; it's a solitary cave with certain areas taken up by man-made structures. The only thing that makes certain instances seem not-so-real (dream-like or acid-influenced) are the objects and events that happen in sequence (one after the other). The virus, the fat baby, the vial, the boy, the screaming, the preaching all seem pretty normal -and that's relative to Aeon's world, mind you. What's impressive is the ending that shows Aeon as a mother, taking her son to a ball game. Suddenly the context is all wrong -the normal has become the abnormal.

You ever wonder if human beings have a purpose?

I think some things just exist and we assign purpose to them (ourselves included); and if such an object doesn't exist, we invent it. But as far as meaning/subjective-meaning, I'm more inclined to say that things simply exist as we impose purpose on it. We often look for the reason, the cause because something because it adds context to everything we say and do. But in the end, there may not even be a purpose or a meaning to anything. And being human and realizing that is what seperates us from a patch of moss, or a grain of sand, in that we can understand death in the abstract, we can accept the fact that we're stranded here on this blue speck in space, naked - without meaning, without purpose. Maybe the world itself is an illusion. Maybe we just decided to create it (the illusion) because we were bored.

- OR -

You know, maybe this episode wasn't meant to be understood; maybe it was written to NOT make sense. Maybe nothing makes sense. Perhaps what we think we discover is only the purpose and meaning we are trying to impose on objects -and outside the realm of human consciousness exists only atoms working in concert, cells surviving, punks ranting... =D

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), May 08, 2002.

The thought of a force pulling our strings is, for one thing, pretty logical. Back in the day there was the belief of cartisian dualism; that the mind and spirit operate on a level separated from the physical brain and body. And, to an extent, this makes sense. If you take apart a radio, for example, you will find the speaker and the dial -you will find out how the radio produces sound, and how you can adjust the volume, but see -that right there is already far into the function of the radio. If you focus only on those components you will never find the source of the radio's signal -which is transmitted in the air around us. For years we have looked at the human brain in this way; we see how it is working, but we fail to discern the specific quality that makes us conscience. Does this suggest that, like the radio, we are looking in the wrong place? If you ask me if such a thing is possible, that we are influenced by the position of planets and the pull of gravity, I say sure. I also believe that there are forces, heavenly and hellish that sway man's judgement. It sounds bad, I know, but there really is no rivaling scientific view -human consciousness has been something of a skeleton in the closet of human evolution.

-- cynical (gemini318@excite.com), May 11, 2002.

Nicely put. I believe that the central tendency of all being, is to follow societies patterns, but beneath all that, is the want or yearning for something more... you know?

BTW any of you aware of the works of RD laing? that may or may not sound like a really dumb question to you salomon, but i live in New Zealand and a VERY small percentage of the population has even heard of him, anyway, he is/was my father.

-- Pandora's minion(charles laing) (low_calorie_ginseng@hotmail.com), August 03, 2002.

Needless to say, this is a subject very dear to me, growing up with a library full of psychology, theology, and the like.

-- Pandora's minion(charles laing) (low_calorie_ginseng@hotmail.com), August 03, 2002.

Hey there Kiwi

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), August 04, 2002.

That's quite a name to drop. RD Laing was a huge counterculture figure in Britian, and something of a legend in the acid house/rave scene. I'm (guiltily) trying to finish "The Politics Of Experience" right now; excellent book. I especially like his assertions that the early believers in religion did not in fact "believe" in anything, but experienced it directly, and that perceiving supernatural and extrasensory phenomena is part of the normal state of affairs.

Barb: check out this site for more on RD Laing: Laign Bio

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), August 04, 2002.

I managed to to end up in a psychosis about 3 or so months ago. When I woke up on the floor in my bedroom I didnt remember anything untill I took in the state of things, what a mess. I started to remember this and that and Im still sort of recalling stuff presently. Naturally ive been thinking about this a lot.

I guess I have some serious reading to do. Cant wait!

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), August 04, 2002.

Maybe he was in NZ at the time.

-- Sam ((janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), August 11, 2002.

By the way that site linked to by Inu is really something, Im all over it right now.

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), August 12, 2002.

I haven't checked out this thread (or indeed this whole forum) in months, and it's interesting to see how it's developed. It's certainly impressive that R.D. laing's son is a visitor!

Just a couple of thoughts: (1) I haven't read "Slaughterhouse 5" since I was 14 and to be honest I've never really thought about it before, but that and Vonnegut's other work clearly had an ENORMOUS influence on me. (2) Regarding Cynical's thought that perhaps there wasn't any intended meaning in "Chronophasia" (and how, almost paradoxically, that might relate to questions of meaning touched on in the episode) -- I wouldn't go that far, but I HAVE been delighted by interpretations here and elsewhere that have nothing to do with what I was thinking when I wrote the episode but don't seem any less valid because of that. (Actually, you could argue that there's TOO MUCH intended meaning in "Chronophasia" -- that it suffers compared to other episodes from being too heavy-handed in a way.)

-- Peter Gaffney (trypsys@hotmail.com), August 13, 2002.

Regarding Chronophasia, my feeling is that if a philosophy is deep, original and genuine, it deserves to be shouted from a megaphone.

Peter -- thank you, thank you, thank you. The best compliment an artist can give to their fans is that he/she liked what they had done with it (being "absolutely horrified" coming in as a close second).

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), August 13, 2002.

Edit: by "it", I mean the artist's creation (must try to connect brain to typing fingers).

-- Inu (paul@nadisrec.com), August 13, 2002.

Right up front,I'd like to say I've done peyote.There,I've gotten Logo to completely ignore this response.Either that,or smirk at the ramblings of a tripped-out vegetable.Trevor answered all questions,like he always does,in a completely truthful manner,because of the Custodian that crawled up his butt.Anytime I don't get Flux,I just listen to Trevor,and he lays it all out,cuz he's that kind of guy.Although I still have no idea what "The flesh will be tearing at the opera house tonight" means.But here's what he reveals in Chronophasia:

1.The madness was once an integral part of human consciousness.Unless the ancients drank from peyote cacti all day,it couldn't have been anything as pyschotropic as acid,although that would make this current rabbit hole much more interesting.Maybe then somebody would do something about all these damn fnords!

2.The baby is Aeon's only known offspring.Not counting clones.

3.Most importantly,THERE IS NO VIRUS.

-- alex (doesn't work@yahoo.com), May 03, 2003.

Yeah, Ive done mescaline from San Pedro cacti. Though all of my friends, who came close to doing the amount I did, threw up, I never felt anywhere close to vomitting. I always found it relatively easy to think through the periods of nausea and come off feeling quite euphoric.

Alex, what are fnords?

-- Sam (janecherrington@paradise.net.nz), May 05, 2003.