M7 seems to defeat the whole idea of leica Ms, will the m8 or m9 be just like a contax g2.Leica need to read their own brochure.It seems to me they are loosing their way.They have done all this before with the R8(NEED I SAY MORE).More gadgets to go wrong,more and more dependancy on the tool doing it for you.I will never forget my batteries going on my nikon 801 at a friends wedding.My understanding of leica Ms is that you take the photo not the camera,that is the whole idea of the camera.Correct me if i am wrong.

-- allen herbert (ALLEN1@BTINTERNET.COM), March 10, 2002

Answers

this is true of all cameras: "you take the photo, not the camera"

I don't care for automation, and will stick with M6 TTL's (i like the size of the shutter speed selector)... but if somebody wants that automation they can go right ahead and get it for all i care. There are enough M6 TTL's out there to last me a few lifetimes.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), March 10, 2002.

I have asked myself the same question. As long as I am able to set the corrent time/aperture I wonder what I use the M7 for. However I am apparently not the only Leica customer so there might be others who will likely use the new features. As long as Leica does not kill their own heritage I am fine. And with 5 Leica M6 bodies I will be able to inherit some to my kids....

-- Bernd Kunze (bkunze@gmx.net), March 10, 2002.

There are lots of situations when having the camera pick the shutter speed automatically can be handy and not compromise the quality of the exposure.

Control comes from knowing when the camera will do the right thing and when it will not. Whether you set the shutter speed dial by hand or the camera does is not all that important IMHO.

-- Pete Su (psu_13@yahoo.com), March 10, 2002.

Personally, outside of providing a tight (1 degree) spot, it's hard for me to see how the M6 could be improved. And it seems as if most of the improvements for the M6 have made there way into the M7. As far as batteries go, I don't know what to say about someone who doesn't carry spare batteries for an important occasion. After all, I carry spare batteries for my M6. You can carry enough spare batteries for the M7, in a minimum of space to last a lifetime. I think I caculated by six spare M7 type batteries take up about as much room as 1 AA. I just hope the M7 doesn't become another M5.

-- Glenn Travis (leicaddict@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

Allen and others. Even if you don't use the AE feature (and who among us would not use it if it were there?), the M7 has other useful features. For one thing, it has a more accurate shutter (whether in AE or not) with nearly continuous settings. That is to say, the shutter accuracy is greater and the exposure accuracy is greater. In addition, the VF window is multicoated to reduce RF patch flaring. Not to mention high speed sync (1/250-1/1000) with the Metz flash unit. These sound like useful features to me. However, others may disagree.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 10, 2002.

The M7 is a real Leica.

It work exactly like a M6TTL, but faster.

-- Lucien (lucien_vd@yahoo.fr), March 10, 2002.

Sorry dude, but a Leica M7 rocks the house and doesn't defeat the purpose of Leica M's. Only a crappy photographer will defeat the purpose of Leica M. And there is a saying: take a photo by all means necessary.

-- Alfie Wang (leica_phile@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

It seems if you're under pretty consistent lighting throughout a scene there's not much need to fiddle with settings. I preset the aperture for lighting and DOF needs, then it's just shutter and focus to worry about. I like my M6TTL, got it in Jan. and could've waited for the M7.

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

I would better depend on a M7 made by Nikon rather than Leica. Until Leica has proven the M7's reliability in the marketplace, I will not be convinced. Prove me wrong Leica....I dare you!

-- Kristian (leicashot@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

The main problem I forsee for the autoexposure of the M7 is that it makes the exposure from a spot metering, not a center weighted or a matrix metering. therefore lots of wrong exposures may occur. (when AE lock is not used of course). It is the opposite with the spot metering of the M6 that gives the photographer the exact exposure after one has decided wich part of the photo has the highlights, where are the shadows and where exactly to aim the spot metering to get things right!

-- Marco (marco_hidalgo@hotmail.com), March 10, 2002.

Marco. I don't understand your comments. The metering syste in the Leica M7 is exactly the same as that in the M6. There is AE exposure lock so you can meter on something appropriate and then recompose. You would have to do exactly the same thing with an M5, M6, or M6TTL. Only the M7 will give you a more accurate exposure, since the shutter speed set is essentially stepless. The M7 was designed to give MORE ACCURATE shutter speeds as well as exposures. Of course, like any manual exposure system, it must be used with some care and thought.

The metering pattern of the M6/TTL and M7 are identical. Neither is a spot meter, but a cenral circle corresponding to 13-23% of the film image area depending on the distance to which the lens is set. This may be considered a "large" spot, but is the pattern preferred by Leica, precisely because of the problem you mention with metering a timy area not representative of the entire scene.

Kristian. I don't think Leica needs to prove anything to anyone. After all, they did develop the first commercially successful 35 mm camera and gave produced an excellent series of M cameras and an outstanding series of lenses. Anyone who is concerned about the first batch of cameras having particular problems can buy the camera with USA passport warranty. Any problems will be fixed (or the camera replaced) without regard to the cause.

Personally, I would be more concerned buying a state-of-the-art autofocus auto everything camera because there are far more things to go wrong. Anyway, anyone who doesn't like the electronics incorporated into the M7 doesn't have to buy one. But my guess is that most of you M users will eventually end up owning an M7 sooner or later. The same goes for the M8 and M9 :-).

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 10, 2002.

Marco is spot on about AE exposure :-)

It is quite conceivable that in blotchy contrasty lighting or high contrast subjects that the AE exposure is all over the place, thanks to the fat spot metering pattern.

Finger tip single exposure AE lock is great, but only for a single frame. It is ergonomically awkward to make sure that a sequence of frames is consistently exposed, in AE mode, in the sorts of situations I have envisaged as being challenging.

To do that, the only solution would be to switch to manual.

Multi-exposure fingertip AE lock, in addition to the single exposure lock, (perhaps incorporated into the sliding on/off switch around the shutter release) would have greatly increased the value of AE in this camera.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 10, 2002.

Mani and Marco. Maybe so. I didn't think of that aspect of the AE lock - that you have to repeat this operation for each frame. But if use an M motor at 3 FPS (for which I myself have no need), is there enough time for the camera to make new AE measurements for each frame or will it just use the original AE locked exposure. I would think the latter is more likely, but I don't know. This issue only comes up because of the AE feature.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 10, 2002.

More gadgets to go wrong,more and

My primary camera is a Mamiya 7. I've used it through the Central American jungle and in North African desert. I've worked in pouring rain in Europe and on the street just about everywhere. I have yet to have a problem, ever, and the Mamiya 7 is more dependent on "gadgets" than the Leica M7.

I would also point out that the press photographers has delivered consistently from Afghanistan with almost all digital cameras in unbearable conditions and have yet to complain about their equipment. What are you doing that is so much more likely to cause "gadget" failure?

more dependancy on the tool doing it for you

Photographers, photographers, always do it for themselves regardless of the equipment.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), March 10, 2002.

The M7 is one case where I won't be able to offer my opinion for a while. Until the bugs in the M7 (and there will be) are documented along with their fixes, and the prices fall several hundred dollars (and they will) I will continue to use my M6 classics and my Hexar RF.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), March 10, 2002.

I'm sorry Allen, but every time I read something on this forum about cameras that are dependent on batteries I have to go look at the calendar and see what decade we are living in. Those tiny little dinky batteries take up no room and cost next to nothing. The lithiums last forever so why not stock up and be prepared for crying out load. If I can carry eight extra AA lithiums in an extra holder for my Canon EOS-3 just in case, I think I can handle having an extra battery for my M-6. Geeezzz!!! And on another note -- the best photographer I ever met once said "It ain't the arrows, it's the Indian." --------------------------------------------------------------

-- Dayton P. Strickland (daytonst@bellsouth.net), March 11, 2002.

This whole batteries thing is such unadulterated rubbish. You're telling us you're worried about batteries, typing on a computer connected to a global network of other computers, you watch TV, drive a car, use a cellphone, listen to the radio and so on and so on. Go and buy some batteries. Put them in your pocket.

If your nikon failed during a wedding it was your fault, not the camera's - you should have had a load of spare batteries.

Yes, yes, the Leica philosophy! No batteries = good pictures, the best cameras were made fifty years ago, etc etc. What a load of nonsense.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 11, 2002.

Isnt everyone missing the point here. The M7 is meant to compliment the M6 ttl which is going to still be produced alongside the M7. They are 2 different cameras and will always be preferred by some people and hated by others. Lets see if they are more reliable than the first R8 cameras! ;]

-- Karl yik (karl.yik@dk.com), March 11, 2002.

Sometimes I wish I worked for Leica. Like right now. Never a dull day! Just imagine having worked on the M7 project for the last few years and now the thing is coming out.
Read all about it!
Hundreds of  "Wow!"s, hundreds of  "Eee!"s.
All at the same time!

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 11, 2002.

Sorry cannot resist, have to say this.When you change clothes dont forget your batteries.Make sure you have got the right ones.Get your wife to remind when you go out to say dont forget your batteries.Make sure you dont drop them out of your pocket.I just love them anyone got a spare battery for a *****.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Gee, we Leica photographers must be sorry lot! Nearly every other 35mm camera on the planet needs batteries to operate these days and yet people make great photos with them. Yet it appears from some of the above posts that Leica shooters are just too darned stupid to put an extra set of batteries in their camera case.

-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), March 11, 2002.

How is your new FlashBangWallopm896.I hear you do not have to bother to turn it on,or even bother to press that bothersome shutter release.Just say take,hold on tight and it whirls around taking photos.It even took some nice photos 40miles away and some of the craters of the moon.l hear is has improved your eye for a good photo and improved your tech skills.And if you do not like what it took just change them in photoshop super to what you thik they should have been like.I am sure it has brought out the real photographer in you.That pink leatherette battery holder for it is really wow,looks as good as the camera.And the company has kept to tradition by othering it in the original colors.Luky you

-- a (ALLEN1@BTINTERNET.COM), March 11, 2002.

On the battery issue...

Howevver, the average technoblitz camera winds up in the trash in 10-15 years. A Leica can reasonably be expected to last over 50 years. Will the required batteries still be available in 50 years? I dunno. I have my dad's old Instamatic fromm the 70's that took Mercury cells. Can't get batteries for it any more. With an M6TTL, in 50 years you still have a good manual camera (sans meter) if the batteries go away. With an M7, well, may be you retrofit an M6 shutter to it ;-)

-- Dan Brown (brpatent@swbell.net), March 11, 2002.

Watch me get branded as uptight for this.

I've got a Konica Hexar that works well for me, and I just traded for an M6. My wife and I will be spending something like a year overseas (Guatemala, Honduras -- don't know for sure as she'll be an MD but not board certified yet. We're working on the details) in places where even Peace Corps workers have problems with parasites because you can't pack in enough firewood to be able to boil all the water you drink (no roads or infrastructure).

I find the idea of a camera that will work fine without film to be very comforting. I don't know that I could do the same with 2 available shutter speeds as I could with the full range of speeds available -- I could very likely make it work, but not nearly as well.

That's not to say that I make camera decisions based on whether the cameras are fully manual or not (though in MF I am drawn toward Hasselblad 500's and Rollei TLR's), but I think it's reasonable for some of us to say it's one of the features we look at.

Of course, if you never leave the city then these concerns might not affect you at all.

-- Derek Zeanah (derek@zeanah.com), March 11, 2002.

Hi folks !

Use this:

http://users.skynet.be/fotoshopping/m6bh.jpg

(copy and paste in your browser, I don't know how to put links here. sorry)

a little accessory sold with every Minolta X-Series camera. It holds 2 PX76 batteries. And for the M7 ? Take 2 of them ..... :-)

Michael

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 11, 2002.

Derek, isn't there a middle way here? Sure in very extreme circumstances that few of us are likely to find ourselves in, a mechanical camera makes sense. But even if you leave the city for a month, taking a few batteries along isn't the end of the world!

You're obviously going to have the time of your life, congrats.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 11, 2002.

Why do most pros carry a machanical camera as back up.Due to probs with batteries.Runout,failure,none obtainable in location.Did not take anought.OR FORGOT. To read some of the comments posted nobody has every forgot anything ,they are perfect people.The laws of the universe also say... your batteries will fail at the most awkward time and place.How easy to misplace/lose to little silver bats.bottom line take hand held meter get better results,if you loose it etc you can still takr photos anyway.

-- allen herbert (ALLEN1@BTINTERNET.COM), March 11, 2002.

As a recent convert to the

-- John Griffin (john.griffin@millerhare.com), March 11, 2002.

Lets see. I think the question is "Why an M7?"

OK-Pretend you're Leica AG. You want to survive of course, yet remain true to your heritage and fans. How do you do that? You do so by an evolutionary upgrade to your premium RF product.

In this case by providing additional circutry and electromagnetic controls to the existing mechanical horizontally traveling focal plane shutter that has been around for close to 90 years. They've got some experience there, witness the R series as far as electronically controlled shutters.

As a result you have a camera with AE priority and a more accurate exposure control. This will expand their market in two areas. First the "neck jewelry" crowd, who only want a Leica to impress their friends and now will be able to "run it" and produce at least properly exposed images, and second, those pros who already realize the benefits of Leica glass, but often need the speed that will be provided by the AE capability. The rest of us will just benefit from the more accurate shutter.

To the purists out there that bemoan the fact that that the all mechanical shutter is passing on, Leica knows that over time you're "passing on" to, and ultimately, that's not good for their business. They may not be able to stop that from happening, but they must recognize it and act accordingly.

In the M7 they have responded to and rewarded that loyalty. If I choose to put lenses almost 80 years old on an M7 I'll be able to. By sticking with a horizontally traveling FP shutter, they've been able to retain a body shape that has been around and loved for almost 50 years.

And if they are able to survive for another 5 decades, I suspect that they will be producing parts for the M7 inhouse at that time, as they now do so for the bulk of the parts that go into the M3.

I don't think I can add much to the above posts regarding batteries. The Ms have required them for 18 years now for full operation. If the lesson has not been learned in some quarters to carry spares it never will be. Does anyone know of a currently produced premium (or even cheap) 35mm camera that does not require them? Of course, should they fail, the M7 still offers some function, albeit reduced.

I doubt seriously if the M6TTL will continue to be produced. If you want one simply buy a M7 and turn off the AE, or pick up either a new one from the existing inventories, or a used one. If history is any guide, there appear to be used Ms always available. If you want a new M6 though, I think you better get one in the near term. I don't think Leica is big enough now, nor will their business ever be again, to devote resources to production of two M bodies as they did some 20 years ago in the past. And even that was less than 1000 M4Ps concurrent to the M6. Before that you have to go back to the 60's with M2/3 RF bodies.

All said and done, I think they made the most logical of moves, with concessions both to the past and future. The M7 is the result. They fully realize that while they can't be revolutionary, neither can they stand still.

Best,

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 11, 2002.

Derek,

If you "find the idea of a camera that works with out film" comforting, then I presume you'll be going digital. You'll need batteries there to.

Have a great trip.

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 11, 2002.

As I was saying before I accidently hit return; I'm amazed Leica didn't take a bigger risk and leap forwards. IMO they seem to hung up with producing 'collectors' cameras rather than working tools. If you want automation - get a Hexar RF, if you want RF on a budget - get a Voigtlander. I bought a very 'user' M6 recently and it's a tool, a means to an end and it does the job very well but it's not perfect. If I were leica I would have taken the 'M' concept further; a revised body shape with a moulded grip and rubberised covering to make the camera feel even more a part of the user, weather seals like the pro SLR useres have, a narrower meter area, single framelines, shutter readout and a faster top speed. Auto exposure is no use if you have a narrow area - it's a gimick why not do it properly and do matrix metering? I have often thought of the similarities between the M cameras and the Porsche 911 (I'm not going to list them as there are too many) but would you buy a 911 with an auto gerabox?

-- John Griffin (john.griffin@millerhare.com), March 11, 2002.

Jerry, if you turn the AE on the M7 off, from what I have read in magazines, the M7 will be left with just two mechanically-set shutter speeds : 1/60 s and 1/125 s. Now if thats true, that would be very constricting for shooting. I may be wrong, so someone with more direct information can give more clarity on this.

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 11, 2002.

Hello Sparkie,

All the shutter speeds are running even in manual mode. The 1/60s and 1/125s are mechanical speeds and works also without batteries.

Michael

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 11, 2002.

Thanks Michael. Does this apply to when the batteries run out? Will all manual shutter speeds still work? Or will you only be left with a box that can operate on only two speeds. Thanks,

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 11, 2002.

You got me. Everyone, please substitute "batteries" for "film" in my above post -- I think most knew what I meant though.

As far as batteries or not, I don't see it as a big issue. The F5 was the biggest consumer of power I've ever used, and I only had problems with batteries the first time I used it for a serious shoot (40+ rolls, took 2 changes of batteries and I was *out*); this was remedied by purchasing a NiMH battery and carrying about 20 AA's as backups.

My Hexar does fine, my Sony (filmless!) digital camera does fine, etc. But operation without batteries *is* a valid feature to be looking for in a camera for some subset of the population (think running 10 rolls per day for a year in a place without electricity, running water, or roads; photography in really cold environments; bicycling across China for a couple of years where the availability of odd-sized batteries is nonexistent). One shouldn't be attacked or called names ("luddite!") for pointing out that one of the features Leica M cameras have *always* had has been removed.

IMHO, of course. Apologies in advance for misspellings and misstatements (and lack of hyphens.)

-- Derek Zeanah (derek@zeanah.com), March 11, 2002.

Why do most pros carry a machanical camera as back up

to They don't. This is a myth. A few years ago, I spent some time with a very successful (Aperture published his book etc etc) war photographer who works primarily in the jungle. He carried two cameras dependent on batteries. Period. That's where most photographers are at these days.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), March 11, 2002.

To answer a few points raised. 1.The auto everthing people will never be happy until the camera leaves the house on its own,takes the pictures and returns wagging its tail,while they watch television.They like Leicas as a fashion statement. 2.Leica have survived all these years because of the, so called purists,and many more will join the ranks because the Leica is a purist camera and proud of it.Real photographers undestand these facts. 3.The M6 is the flag ship in the Leica range,the most successful by far and the sales of other products are based on its reputation. 4.The m6 has been so successfull that other manuf have emulated it. For example would we have a metal bodied nikon f5.etc. 3.Leica by introducing the M to the auto everthing market are in a very real danger of loosing those purists who have stuck by them. 4.Nikon already in that market with the fm,hex,volt who are producing cameras now which are mechanical without battery or any other dependancy.I wonder why. 5.Quality non dependancy will always win throught.Even the auto people are starting to get bored with button pressing. 6.If the M7 could be switched to full manual mode i would be happy ,there is a big market among the flashbangers.But Leica to compete in that market changing their flag ship into Fashbang camera will be in the meduim to long term a grave mistake.Flashbangers by their nature always want the latest.The m will end up like the r at the poor end of the market unable to keep up. 7.Better if the m was left alone and compete with a new camera or the r range.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

I don't think you have to be in favour of automation in cameras to want the M7. I'm getting one and I don't intend to use the aperture priority at all (probably will sometimes though; my wife certainly will). I want it for the more accurate shutter speeds, the on/off switch, and being able to tell whether a film is loaded. DX is convenient (but I wouldn't buy it for that alone). The new flash features (HSS and rear curtain) sound useful, but I had them on my F90 and never used them.

Nigel

-- Nigel Bowley (nigel.bowley@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

The point i am trying to make is the M is starting to move into the wrong market.One of the important features on the M was the fact it could be operated in a purely mechanical way.Now only partly,what next on the M8.As for the so called myth i could fill 50 pages of top pros who use mechanical cameras as backup.Get real batteries fail in extreme tempatures ask the manufactures of them.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Yes Sparkie, you will be left with a box that can operate on only two speeds ... but I don't think this is a real problem. Like the most guys in this forum (?) , I mean that carrying spare batteries is not a real problem. Have a look at my solution : batterie carrier for neck-strap from Minolta. Ask for them in a well sorted photo-shop >>>

it carries to PX76 batteries (take 2 of them for the M7)

Michael

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 11, 2002.

nice little gadget michael. pity about the M7 box when theres no 'juice'. at least i can still use my M6TTL with my Weston lightmeter when my batteries run out. best,

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 11, 2002.

yeh, you get my vote allen.

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 11, 2002.

"The auto everthing people will never be happy until the camera leaves the house on its own,takes the pictures and returns wagging its tail,while they watch television.They like Leicas as a fashion statement."

Come on guys, you know he's right!

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 11, 2002.

Sorry cant help it...........is there a gadget to fit a pork my on my lenses strap.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

mean pork pie

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Sorry Allen, my english isn't good enough to understand what you mean by 'pork pie'...

Michael

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 11, 2002.

ok hamburger

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

I think it's a kind of hat. Not worn by yorkshiremen.

By the way, isn't the whole premise of this thread mistaken - shouldn't it be "Why _an_ M7"? Not "Why _uh_ M7". I suggest we start again under the newer, fresher heading.

Oh god - my puppy just ran off with the toilet paper - what do I do now?

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 11, 2002.

Allen, problems to explain ? I didn't know Hamburg was in Belgium. A bientôt, malpoli.

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 11, 2002.

Sorry to sound rude but i get fed up with all this gadget techonology, when really it only gets in the way,and encourages us at to become button pressers.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

My computer is clockwork, actually.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 11, 2002.

Shame is not you could use it anywhere.nice little battery bag at... any colour.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Ok Allen, that's exactly my opinion but I don't think that 'button pressers' will buy an M7 and if they do, it's certainly not for taking pictures but in place of a new cartier watch and if they contribue by this way to the survive of the Leica company, it's ok for me. Hope M6 will be continued ... and WE will never become button pressers.

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 11, 2002.

Probably many of us have seen the documentary on CBS about 09/11. These highly emotional images were recorded by a all digital video camera. I am still meditating about the possibility of modern electronics under extremely severe conditions. I am not sure my M6s could have resisted to such a stress and still record image...

-- Alain Maestrini (alain.maestrini@att.net), March 11, 2002.

Sparkie,

I believe that when you turn AE to off on the M7, you're left with virtually an M6 TTL albeit with an electronically controlled mechanical horizontally traveling cloth fp shutter. Otherwise why would they still have included the two opposing arrowheads and the center red dot in the VF? What use would they be? How would you expose a subject contrary to what the either the AE mode reads, or what it reads in the current M6 (TTL or otherwise).

As he has had one hands on for a week or two, perhaps Lucian can put that issue to rest.

On the Weston meter. I use my Master V occasionally with the incident attachment. However I hold little hope that when the selenium cell goes replacements will be available. Particularly a few years down the road. If the market isn't there, whos going to bother?

Best,

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 11, 2002.

Yes you are wrong Allen.

Don't forget Leica is a compny, they create things which are sold. The more they sell the happier the workers are.

I would not think it is worth to jeopardise a whole company to keep a myth.

But photography does not sell good these days. A friend, the street corner photographer says all the profession is suffering.

Just a comment: if you car has ABS brake system and power steering, sell it, you never know, it can go wrong.... If you have a mobile, forget it, it will never work properly.

In other ways, consummer electronics have been better lately. Cheers. X.

-- Xavier d'Alfort (hot_billexf@hotmail.com), March 11, 2002.

Yes. And when there is a power outage, Allen Herbert will probably walk around in the dark because he doesn't trust his battery operated flashlight. There are now three inane posts on the same subject. Enough is enough. Can we raise the caliber of the discussion on this site. It's the 21st century. Batteries are here to stay.

-- Eliot (erosen@lij.edu), March 11, 2002.

Where are we going when a Leica user(MAYBE)compares photography with mobile phones,Abs brakes.Keep clicking my friend one day you will get a goodun.Ha!

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

And the Myth ,which is not a myth, has kept it going.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

Allen and Michael,

I have used Leica cameras since 1960, and during that time, in each of the over 60,000 plus images I have captured, it was necessary to "press the button" for each and every one! Don't think that makes me a "button presser" in the context you envision.

Please take the time to review the history of Leitz/Leica, going back even before they made their first photographic tool. Whatever they have produced, they have always endeavored to fashion the most precision of tools that they were capable of for its stated purpose, starting with their microscopes, and continuing through to the bodies and lenses of today.

During the whole of that time, they have never introduced a revolutionary product. Rather they have chosen to take the evolutionary road, and the only time they stepped off that path (the M5) they learned their lesson quickly. There only goals are to survive to enable them to continue that heritage.

Perhaps the question should be reversed. What do each of you think should have been done to the M6TTL as a next "evolutionary" step? Or do you think they should now or ever, have done nothing at all?

Jerry

-- Jerome R. Pfile, Jr. (JerryPfile@msn.com), March 11, 2002.

As i have already said with a option to go fully manual.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 11, 2002.

"M7 seems to defeat the whole idea of leica Ms...Leica need to read their own brochure.It seems to me they are loosing their way."

Allen, I agree with you completely.

Tacking on a little AE, without making it the best, most ergonomic and fluid AE is a hesitant, pointless little step.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 11, 2002.

Were the same kind of doubts expressed during the evolution of the R cameras? After all, apart from the R 6/6.2, R cameras have always been battery-dependent and offer much more automation than the M7, with both aperture priority and shutter priority AE, variable program mode, as well as electronically-timed manual mode. Did they come in for the same amount of criticism, or do RF users have different tastes from SLR users? The R6.2, with its all-mechanical shutter and ability to operate without batteries if need be, has proved to be so unpopular that Leica has discontinued its production; yet the all- electronic R8, which is absolutely dependent on batteries, is still in production. No manual speeds on the R8!

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 11, 2002.

Why an M7?

Because without it,and other evolutions,Leica,in my opinion won't survive. There are too many photographers out there who want,for each their own reasons,cameras with more features. If Leica continues to ignore them they're doomed.Companies such as Contax have taken a significant amount of this segment away from Leica and with it,much needed capital to remain viable. Likewise, they would be making a huge mistake if they ceased production of the M6.

-- mark tomalty (mtomalty@aol.com), March 12, 2002.

Jerry,

don't misunderstand me. I like the M7 and as soon as possible I will get one. With button-presser I mean those people who come in my photo- store. Many of them have expensive P+S cameras like Contax T and when they ask me about the Leica M6 I have to tell them that they better take a Contax G2 because they don't even know what is shutter speed and aperture. If I sell an M6, they will never make a good picture and won't come back to my store.

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 12, 2002.

I always thought if you want a fully automated, bells 'n' whistles Leica you get the R8. If you want a fully mechanical Leica you get the M6TTL. That up till now was logical and clear (IMHO). Now with the M7, its a little itsy, bitsy. Sort of like a blind man who has lost his cane and doesnt know to go forward or backwards or stay-put. Instead has gone sideways. Dont mean to sound sarcasatic, but there is one truth, and that is you can't please everybody all of the time with one product.

Hi Jerry, I use a Weston Euromaster, and these selenium batteries are supposed to last between 20-25 years. If it dies, it dies completely and not a half-assed reading. So you will KNOW when it has died and gone to selenium heaven. The company here in the UK that makes them still in the guise of the Weston Euromaster II will replace, check and calibrate your oldie for a reasonable price. These meters have gone to the north pole and back and still keep reading.

Best,

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 12, 2002.

.I WOULD HAVE SOLD THEM A M6, AND GIVEN THEM A GOOD PHOTO BOOK(FREE) AND MARKED THE CHAPTER ON AP AND SP.THEY WOULD HAVE GOT A LOT MORE OUT OF PHOTOGRAPHY.AND YOU WOULD HAVE GOT A VERY HAPPY LONG TERM CUSTOMER.TO MY MIND ANYONE WHO WANTS TO SPEND THAT MUCH ON PHOTOGRAPHY DESERVES THE EFFORT.UNLESS THEY JUST WANT A JEWEL TO WEAR

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

Ohmigod, he's started shouting now...

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 12, 2002.

Oops must have pressed the wrong button,activated one of the Strutting Peacocks.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

Gentlemen,

Excuse me to intrude in this discussion.

It seems to me two different questions are mixed here and that's why the argument is getting so harsh and nobody seems to be understanding each other.

In the messages of Mr. Allen Herbert I see a "philosophical" statement more than a technical one. For him, the M camera should remain what it was because it represents the lack of any kind of automatism and the real masterization of photography bt the man (or the woman) behind the camera. This I can't agree with nor condemn either. Just because each photographer facing his subjects has his own method and what is important is what is on the print at the end.

But I can't agree with the old and, in my opinion, completely obsolete debate about the use of batteries.

Someone in this thread made a revealing goof in formulatiing his opinion about the alleged consequence of being battery dependent.

He confused battery and film... If he, or anybody else, could tell me why it is less difficult to find spare film in remote areas than it is to find spare batteries, please let me know...

Going to such remote areas you must bring with you the spare films in sufficient quantity and I see few problems (moreover with the small volume they represent for a M7 or even for an Hexar RF like mine when compared to what should be necessary for a modern motorized reflex SLR) why it is "sooooooo" difficult to get the necessary quantity of spare batteries. So that point seems to me irrelevant to consider as a liability to condemn the new M7. By the mechanical operation is not a guarantee of being ever able to operate properly... One year ago my faithful M5 had a broken shutter curtain mechanism in the midst of a picture scession and there was no way to fix it immediately (finally it ended its eventful life, the camera being economically impossible to repair at all). Nowadays (I knew the time it was not so, I'm an old photographer) electronic components had proven to be as reliable as mechanical ones. So I think the debate is totally pointless. We are not talking about the interest of an old fashioned motorcycle used in remote areas and which could be fixed by the local blacksmith, obviously something which give it a decisive advantage from a modern all electronic regulated state of the art new one. We are talking of a very high precision device which mechanical or electronical can't be fixed anyway in such remote areas... To be fair the only likely problem you can have with a battery operated camera is cold weather operation. But since many years, it has been addresed by most serious manufacturers with separate battery packs you can put in your warm pocket... So it is no more something technically unsolved. Finally, you'd better remember the M6 is ALREADY battery dependent as far as its metering system is concerned... So Mr. Herbert, why don't you chose an M4 or even an M3 here is a real all mechanical camera with no battery at all... By the way why not chose an Ur- Leica by the way as the coupled rangefinder is not indispensable the photog. may in fact appreciate the distances by himself doesn't he? And you'll get an even more reliable camera because it will lack a feature that - after all - can be a source of malfunction :))).

Metering... Someone mentioned the Weston meter with selenium... Not battery dependent of course... I had the occasion to use a Weston and no doubt it was a fine meter. BUT, if you try nowadays to find a Weston which the selenium element is still in proper useable condition you might have to travel a long way... Most are definitely dead as the selenium element is not due to last forever... So to say battery dependence for metering will be something you'd better get used to anyway. I don't know any manufacturer currently producing a selenium meter today.

Considering these elements, is the way taken by Leica a reasonable one?

My answer is definitely YES... As a candid shot camera "by excellence", to have an AE mode if required (remember this not a mandatory automatic camera) is a real "plus" Leica M USERS had strived for a (too) long time ! ...

Did they succeed in upgrading the original design a way it both brings the M camera at the forefront of small format cameras as was once the Leica rangefinder series and so justifiy a very heavy price?

My answer is NO... Sadly, but firmly NO.

Up to and including the most dispelled M5 (this is pure injustice considering things from a user's point of view), Leica was ever including top notch state of the art features to their M camera bodies... Thereafter they were unable to cope with the state of the art in camera bodies and maintained there position because they were the only company to produce a rangefinder body with interchangeable lens (these of an unsurpassed quality by the way)which concept is the only one to keep the small format camera specific advantages for what they really are worth: limited volume, capabilities to operate in small contrast, low light conditions at full aperture with a perfect focusing no AF could match in such situations, silence. Add to this (unfortunately for the prices we pay for) the snobs and "collectors"... The M6 was only a kind of attempt to put things back on the tracks with TTl metering. Almost 15 years after near to ALL the other 35 mm cameras had already included such a feature.

Unfortunately, the much awaited and hoped for M7 - as a good camera it might be intrinsically - is still a latecomer. The only points it is really superior to my Hexar RF (if you excepts the 0.58 variant) is a better finder with more effective base of measure for the rangefinder (hardly decisive if don't use frequently tele-lenses or high end fast lenses at full aperture) and Konica could easily correct the Hexar defect with a magnifier as an accessory, just as Leica recently did... The second advantage being the manual advance and the associated perfect silence... Unless you specialize in live entertainement photography the very small noise of the Hexar RF integrated motor is hardly a liability. But, more important, both these advantages were already present in an M6 ! ...

TTL flash I hear you say ? Again something present in the M6 TTL. Moreover, if TTL falsh is something valuable, how about the limit at 1/50th of a second to synchronize it ? The Hexar RF has unfortunately no TTL flash but it synchronizes at 1/125th of a second and this with any flash unit. The M7 could only operate a single Metz unit up to 1/1000th of a second but beside being obliged to buy this precise flash unit, fill-in will be as tricky as with the Hexar as you lost TTL measure on the way! ... And most of the time, using a rangefinder camera means the flash is better used as a fill-in device, don't you think so ??

Finally, the M7 is still using the Leica way to load films... Really a piece of crap ! Not only slow but also dangerous in difficult action situation as you might well have troubles not loosing the body plate which fully separates from the camera...

So what do you really get for more than twice the price of an Hexar RF... Practically VERY few ...

And that's the great mistake and the point where the M7 is liable to be criticized...

On the contrary to Allen Herbert, I think Leica didn't went as far as they should have done to produce the first 21st century RF camera.

I must prize them for not going to the AF (which is unable to be precise enough to match a classical rangefinder) but (I hate to say that) to keep an already obsolescent concept with their shutter (which could have permitted 1/2000th of a second and much more important be synchronized at 1/250th of a second) just to keep two magnificiently useless mechanical speeds is stupid (not to mention the more economical way a fully electronic shutter could be produced and assembled and the related and necessary lower price the body could have been sold). To have kept the metering to a mere AE + AE lock mode is sheer non-sense... I think you can do almost as fast with manual settings if you have to recompose and automatic mode is strictly justified only when maximum speed of operation is needed (at least for any serious photog. having some familiarity with Ansel Adams theories and their use in practice)and the only auto-mode to permit "push button operation" with a real chance to get a technically good pic is matrix measuring. For symetrical reasons in manual mode, the best can only be extracted with a very precise spot measure. Leica has kept the (bad) compormise of an heavily centered measure both in automatic and manual mode. And last but not least the pesky loading system has been kept...

The result is clear the M7 is much too expensive for what it is worth and does not offer any significant improvement not only over the M6 TTL but over the much less overpriced Hexar RF.

If someone has already read the excellent test of it by Mr. Putts, it is also clear that if no "Leica killing" features were incorporated in the Hexar RF it is because Konica was trying to reach an agreement with Leica... As these negotiations failed, I doubt the next evolution of the Hexar RF will be so deliberately limited not to compete directly with the M bodies... Only had a better finder with 0.72 magnification and an adaptable magnifier and TTL capabilities (and why not 1/250th sync. speed) and you're equal or bettter than the M7 for half its price. Add matrix metering in AE mode and spot metering in manual mode (and if possible manual advance or silent mode for the motor) and you've got a "Leica killer"...

I waited a long, long, time for the M7 to appear... I dreamt of real state of the art range finder camera, I didn't get it with the M7. I don't think I'll go back now to Leica bodies... Sad to say that as a long time Leica buff... But I'm a user, not a collector.

As a final, I must also say to the one who told us the lack of proper battery will forbid him to use his cherished Leica M7 fifty years from now, he is very unrealistic... He must consider instead being short of film supply much earlier than of proper battery units. True, unless you can afford an astronomical sum to buy a very high definition digital back for a medium or large format camera, silver based emulsion is still the best to take pictures. But face the facts, with a high end film scanner an the proper printer you can already get prints in A3 format from a 35 mm film which equals in quality the classical color prints (and if you use bichrome function in Photoshop even match very good classical B&W prints by the way). Tomorrow, you'll do exactly the same with digital cameras (not the ones designed today for digital only but our good old models with appropriate backs and full format sensors)... Leica M7 backward looking way of loading is not only a practical liability but precludes the use of such a full format digital back... Not so with the Hexar... THINK about this important shortcoming twice before buying...

Friendly to all, from a disappointed Leica fan from France

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 12, 2002.

François said:

Metering... Someone mentioned the Weston meter with selenium... Not battery dependent of course... I had the occasion to use a Weston and no doubt it was a fine meter. BUT, if you try nowadays to find a Weston which the selenium element is still in proper useable condition you might have to travel a long way... Most are definitely dead as the selenium element is not due to last forever... So to say battery dependence for metering will be something you'd better get used to anyway. I don't know any manufacturer currently producing a selenium meter today. ANSWER:

Still being made in England today by Megatron. You can email them from your computer or ring them to mail order direct. They are not as elusive as the holy grail. And are about as far as reaching for your keyboard or phone.

http://www.megatron.co.uk/euromaster2/

For background and history: http://WestonMaster.com/indexa.htm

For repairs Megatron do it also, or check this: http://people.smu.edu/rmonagha/mf/weston.html

Best,

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 12, 2002.

Allen,

this is why it's better you don't have a camera store (I know that you don't want to own one). I'm very amused about your reactions. Thank you.

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 12, 2002.

just a thought M ,nice to put a smile on a face,you are right i dont.Could never handle all those buttons. Regards Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

For him, the M camera should remain what it was because it represents the lack of any kind of automatism and the real masterization of photography by the man (or the woman) behind the camera.

I could have not put it better... thanks

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

and i would get all my batteries mixed up.and someones mega-skyraker zoom would not work...oops lost a customer.And someone would hit me over the head with their free photo book thinking I,m taking the p***,hope i dont have bad dreams tonight.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

... Considering that, in his first post two days ago, Allen was asking about the suitability of the M vs. R for his shooting, yesterday he had made the decision to go with an M, and today he's an experienced M6 owner worried about Leica's glorious tradition, it seems pretty obvious we're dealing with a pure-bred troll.

Very, very amusing ...

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 12, 2002.

Let's go to LOST SOUL ... bye here.

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 12, 2002.

I forgot ... with a little stop at M7 MISTAKE.

-- Michael Bohn (michael.bohn@skynet.be), March 12, 2002.

Enjoy, i am sure you will find them more interesting,and with a lot more input than your usual discussions about the best lense cap for a canon, Regards Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

Allen, can’t you be serious !

I’m sure you’re a passionate lover of your M… Something no one having ever used a M body can honestly deny to have been. But please face the facts. Your point of view is perfectly respectable but not really practical anymore for the specific kind of photography a M is dedicated to.

I have been “educated” in photography at a time the amateur world hardly used any meter (Selenium and hand held of course). B&W was pretty much the only kind of film used, color being a “deluxe” feature hardly affordable by the average photog. They now say their B&W films were never more tolerant in exposure than today. They may be right when using test beds in their laboratories. But we all know the other part of the process, I mean printing, is done on very poor paper (of the plastic variety) by the average people and that even the highest class of classical paper so called “archival” or “fine art” is hardly the equivalent of a standard quality paper of the 60’s … It means that your negative can have better registered the information than before but it will be impossible to print them correctly if slightly off in exposure. Practically exposure should be almost as accurate as with a slide to get a print I will describe as “merely acceptable” with plastic paper and say rather good with a “deluxe” classic paper (unless you are an expert printer compensating with masks and other tricks the mediocre quality of the paper). Not to mention the fact that you’ll have a hard time finding a way to glaze your prints perfectly with what is left to do so on the market today (and with a sky high price)…

I’m sure 90% of the work is now done with color film and serious work, we all know that can’t be done but with slide films to be exposed within 1/3 of a stop…

So to say a meter is now a must.

Thanks to Sparkie I know now a Weston is still available … So far so good, but (I went to the site he indicated) it is far more limited in metering range than my Sekonic which happens to be a flash-meter too (yes SOMETIMES I need to change the batteries …). Now I must confess I use my hand held meter more in the incident way than the reflected mode and you know why ? Just because it is easier and faster to measure in the reflective mode with a TTL meter and you can chose your point of measure better by the way.

I have nothing against using a totally manual and mechanical camera even devoid of any TTL measure though. And in fact before my Hasselblad was stolen I did it more than often… But this way to take pictures belongs to subjects that are not fleeting ones… Not the ones I usually tackle with my old M5 and now with my Hexar RF… With this kind of camera I want to record LIFE… Spontaneous, candid shots.

Did you know the famous Cartier Bresson, using an M3 when shooting the May 1968 events in Paris got completely overexposed films… His images were saved only because he was Mr. Cartier Bresson by the laboratory producing intermediate negatives (one could easily imagine what would have been the outcome for an unknown freelance photographer coming with such badly exposed negatives)? Here is the truth behind the myth surrounding the great old times of fully manual guesswork photography ! …

The real question is what kind of photography you practice with your M… If you do the same work I did with my Hasselblad, then I understand perfectly your point: true the manual way makes the photographer think twice before shooting and I think it is the best way. But is it really what the M (and before it all the other Leica models) was conceived to do ? I don’t think so… They were made with action and life in mind. And the M5 and the M6 were better suited than a M4 to do so because of TTL metering, so is the M7 with the option IF REQUIRED to use AE mode and a better M7 with matrix would have been the ideal tool for today.

I agree with you when you imply “gadgetry” as found on most of the 35 mm SLR of today (including the AF unless you use a long fast tele- lens for action photography) is useless and even makes the photographer lazy, making him lose contact with what he does and control (AF epitomizing the point because it generally precludes the rational use of depth of field in the pictures for lack of proper engraved indications on the lens barrel and proper resistance to maintain the chosen focus position: a clear cased of “imposed automatism”). But please, admit each time an automatism is ACTUALLY fully optional, its use (or no use) is the result of the photographer’s deliberate choice… So it does no harm at all, on the contrary it just broadens the capabilities to register some kind of image otherwise impossible to record (or only recorded by chance). For me FRAMING and the TIME you press the button are the main decisions you take. Then come (but only then) the choice of the exposure… Just because you must have time to do so… Which is obviously not ever the case in real life photography.

That’s why I’m convinced the problem with the M7 is exactly the opposite of what you describe, it is not too “automatic” (that would have been the case if it was auto mode only, or AF equipped) but insufficiently automatic when automatism use is required by the subject.

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 12, 2002.

Your thoughts are well put.and deserve an equally well thought out answer,this i will post soon. Regards Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

With practice exposure,speedsettings become a state of mind.No exposure meter will ever be as accurate as the human mind.This is only achieved with practice,and more practice.There is a satisfaction on its own in achieving this skill.Many Leica users and others are already there.A auto everthing or just a little bit of auto is a barrier.By our nature we follow the easy option,hence the growth in auto everthing, not just in cameras.We are always rushing to the next moment.Most experienced non auto focus users will focus their camera as quick as the auto man.Okay many people cannot be bothered with all this,just want a picture,i really feel they are missing out on part of the photographic experience.

This is my the first part of my answer,i will follow in parts to the rest of your thoughts.

You really Know how to get people to put their thing caps on.Regards Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

Second part Leica is only a small company in cannot compete in resources with the nikon canon giants etc.It relies on its quality of product.which in my opion is the very best.And yes, i do believe in that extra something which is in a Leica photo.Yes i do believe that Leica should produce a auto everything in conjuction with one of the giants,who would love to use the name LEICA.I do not think they have the money on their own.Hass did it with one of the giants.But i still believe they should keep a fully manual camera as part of their heritage and for people like me.There is a interest in manual cameras and it is growing,giants do not waste money.The Leica is what they are measured by,these new manuals.Have to have a rest know. The next part will answer my critics this trolling thing,then i will move to your ques Leica was designed as a action camera and has never moved on.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

to my critics i am not sure what trolling is.If it means lively discussion on a new M ,and more than one posting..i plead guilty.If it means we should not be talking about the latest Leica product..guilty.If it means only talking about what some boring no interest thing ...guilty.If it means not answering geniune questions about hexor lenses..guilty.If it means pleasing a small group of people trying to flog their products...guilty.If it means not being a decent person not guilty.If it means not answering back to a adult version of school boy bullies on the web...Tough!If it is about looking at newsgroup pictures i love them please MORE MORE AND MORE.Regards Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

Yes you are right it was.,and guess what it still is.Okay it has not got a big auto tele for sport, nothing is perfect use Nikon i do..Street or scenic is still the same,as are family shots.The Leica or any manual makes you move in close(sound like a Leica brochure)be part of the action ,and you will be a part of it.People will forget about you, then you will get shows shots that the auto zoom boys/girls have wet dreams about.And you will enjoy yourself being part of the party.The price is nowing your bus short cuts seldom work.Bit like soaps chewy but empty.iam sure Mr c made mistakes still did not stop him from being the man. Next part Why should i bother with all that stuff,the picture is all what matters who cares how i got there,whats wrong with photoshop anyway its the results what count.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

It does matter, to who,you.Really we can surf the web copy any picture. Tell all our friends look what i took!they would think we are a wondeful photo man/women.Or you could wander around New York in the rain,be accosted by the local police. and lowlifes.Half your exposures have not worked ,because you did not use a exposure meter (you listened to that troll)But there was a couple of shots which did,and they are not that bad ,even pretty good.Need i say more.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

M7 Well,i must admit i have posted a few blood boiling statements about this camera. Why to have some fun!not really. And what is ,should i buy a r or m when the r is half the price about. Well i will post these anwers tommorow.to quote Mr Sparkie i have run out of juice.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 12, 2002.

Allen,

You write:

>> With practice exposure, speed settings become a state of mind.<<

My answer will be: it used to be so… And it is still the case for speed as it is very easy to determine which one will avoid the subject to be unintentionally blurred… As far as f stops are concerned and taking into account what I wrote in my preceding post, I have to disagree… We are no more exposing B&W films with an effective printing tolerance of say 3 f stops. We are mostly exposing slides with a 1/3 of an f-stop tolerance… The scale is not the same and the consequences of a minor misevaluation can ruin all the work.

>> No exposure meter will ever be as accurate as the human mind.<<

I beg to disagree as far as technical considerations are concerned. What is true in what you wrote is that not a single automatic system can replace the human mind in choosing what is to be measured (knowing no film can register what our brain can perceive at the same time in term of contrast). This is very different from the accuracy of a measure and relies more on Ansel Adams theory… This is linked to interpretative photography. Of course even the best matrix system will never be able to equal the human brain and the human sensitivity here. What such a system can do (and it does do it) is to permit a technically correct exposure when you have no time to practice an interpretation of the subject…

>> This is only achieved with practice, and more practice. There is a satisfaction on its own in achieving this skill.<<

I was once able to do that quite well (not with a Leica as at that time it was only a dream for me but with a Czech copy of the Rolleiflex: a Meopta Flexaret IIIa) . But it was the time of B&W only and with very few different films (I always used the Ilford HP 3 – low light situation – or the Kodak Verichrome Pan outdoor in sunny days) so this skill was rather easy to master. Taking into account the real tolerance of the film + paper combination of the time… I think this is no more practical today (color + actually intolerant B&W). Add to this a natural tendency to broaden the choice of films used depending on the subject with all those slide films with different dominant and contrast available on the market… >> Many Leica users and others are already there. A auto everything or just a little bit of auto is a barrier. <<

If someone has been courageous enough to learn the real way to take pictures (a way which needs to use your brain) I doubt he will use any auto device that would limit his control of the final result. I don’t think Leica M’s or any similar cameras have ever attracted lazy push button guys… So I don’t see them staying “auto-mode” if it diminishes their capabilities to stay in control.

Read Putts test on the M7 when he speaks of how he used the A mode… And the results he obtained.

>> By our nature we follow the easy option, hence the growth in auto everything, not just in cameras. <<

Allen, I ever judge my work (and the work of my fellow photographers) by the result: i.e. the image. Any camera I used (and I used a lot in my life, mine and those friends were kind enough to lend me) has been judged by their ability to deliver the image I wanted them to deliver, the one I pre-conceived in my brain. I had once an “auto all” Nikon F4S. From the beginning I NEVER used the “program” setting. I wanted to control my depth of field and I wanted to control the amount of blur I authorize on a moving subject. I wanted to test the AF with tele-lenses in action photography. I discovered two things: The AF was less than perfect in many situations it would have been most helpful (they say the newer AF are better in those situations, so be it and I won’t comment further) and it was a real burden when it goes to shorter focal lens and didn’t permit the use of the depth of field the way I wanted to use it. So soon the AF lenses were gone and back to the manual focusing ones and finally this cumbersome body was sold. The only feature I regret is matrix metering. More than once when I had no time to set the beast in spot mode, chose the right place to meter and re-compose the image, it saved the day (I was a news reporter at that time). Sometimes the value of a picture is carried by the subject itself, and the right moment to click. Not by the virtues of an artistic interpretation. And still these images are powerful and moving. This is where AE is useful. AF is bad because it has the side effect of depriving you of depth of field control but I admit it is necessary to obtain the best result when you have to capture a flying bird in close up with a long tele-lens or – for the sport photog. I’m not – the crucial moment of a match. I hate AF because “de facto” it can’t be fully disconnected, like I hated the first AE cameras because you were unable to go manual if required. I want and need the choice…

My practice with the Hexar RF (which is very similar to what is described by Putts in his test) has simply teach me another way to do the same I did with my manual M5… I use AE lock and recompose. The effect is absolutely the same as to frame for exposure, set it manually and recompose. It is only a tad faster (but not so). When I need something more special I simply go manual. The same applies to the M7 and – again I insist – unfortunately, just because manual or AE lock modes are so close that the gain is thin when you need fast operation. When I have to resort to an automatism I need it to perform really faster than me, or I don’t NEED it. Though it may be a tad more comfortable.

You have to dominate your camera and not to be dominated by it. It is as simple as that.

>> We are always rushing to the next moment. Most experienced non auto focus users will focus their camera as quick as the auto man. <<

100% agreed but this is due to the very nature of AF an IMPOSED and IMPERFECT automatism (even when not in use it still interfere with manual operation) and the fact any knowledgeable photog knows how to use the DOF ring… But I’m not convinced a MF user can focus as fast and accurately a 400 mm tele-lens as an AF can do on the other side…

>> Okay many people cannot be bothered with all this, just want a picture, I really feel they are missing out on part of the photographic experience. <<

The problem is what do you call a picture? I’ve nothing against “souvenir hunters” but I think calling them photographers is a term of abuse. I don’t think either they want any kind of photographic experience at all. They want a souvenir and they are the best candidates for the entry level (and so drastically overpriced) auto-all digital cameras of today… Like they were candidates for the awful 110 format or the Polaroïd some years ago… IF (and that is the case of most Leica users) you have experienced what quality means in term of image rendition and docility in doing exactly what YOU (the man behind the camera) want to obtain you won’t accept any stupid allegedly do it all automatism will impose on you… When the world relied on horse riding for fast move there were bad riders and good ones, the world now relies more on car driving to do the same and there are still good and bad drivers… A man behind the reins or behind the wheel … But in any case a man. The same applies to cameras but if the camera doesn’t authorize “manual override”…

>> Second part Leica is only a small company in cannot compete in resources with the nikon canon giants etc. <<

What a mistake! True “Leica cameras” is a small unit but it is nevertheless part of a very rich and highly profitable optical group doing in medical and military appliances to say but a few.

If the higher echelon of the group had decided a major investment in camera RD there is more than adequate resources to do so. >> It relies on its quality of product. which in my opinion is the very best. <<

I agree on every part of your statement as far as lenses are concerned. I am more sceptical when it goes to the camera bodies, which is a pity as they WERE the world leaders not so long ago.

>> And yes, I do believe in that extra something which is in a Leica photo.<<

Two things here:

The M concept is something which is impossible to beat as it gives you a certain way to take pictures (exactly what you say below in terms of being part of the action). But it doesn’t mean this concept can’t be better served with new features.

The lenses are truly exceptional… Nothing in small format photography has this special rendition. And – surprise – they work exactly the same when attached to my “lowly” Konica Hexar body… >> Yes I do believe that Leica should produce a auto everything in conjunction with one of the giants, who would love to use the name LEICA <<

I have to disagree here… Each time Leica (Leitz then) introduced something new in its great old time, it was something perfect in the sense it worked exactly as it was advertised and was ever highly useful. Even the now so “cumbersome and slow” and discontinued “Visoflex” was a masterpiece when produced at a time 35 mm SLR didn’t know about auto pre-set aperture and instant mirror… Because at that time you could have both a RF camera AND a SLR camera in one and it was not slower than the competitors when used as a SLR. We don’t need something with "Leica" put on it and full of useless and bothering gadgetry. Particularly AF like the “infamous” Contax G2. But YES we need a M (with the M SOUL) but which permits us to face situations more than often encountered in today photography with the same chance of success as people using modern SLR (in the same range of focal length of course) PLUS what ever made the M a superior machine for spontaneous candid shots… And we need it without being unable to use it the old way should the old way might be more efficient. My only concession being on battery dependence which IMHO is no more a true liability. We need Leica to retake the leadership there and we need Leica to produce a much more affordable camera through the use of modern technology.

>> I do not think they have the money on their own. Hass did it with one of the giants. But i still believe they should keep a fully manual camera as part of their heritage and for people like me. <<

Of course I see no reason to discontinue the M6 TTL and it doesn’t seem to be part of their project either… After all Nikon recently issued a new version of the old FM (once one of my favourites)… But if Leica wants to survive I think they MUST produce something more convincing than the M7 as an everyday TOOL.

>> There is a interest in manual cameras and it is growing, giants do not waste money.<<

Of course there is… As soon as you discover the simple notion of DOF, you run fast from their auto all AF cameras… And who but a very thin minority uses a 300 mm and more tele-lens everyday (where AF is really efficient). But a medium solution is available nowhere. Even the new Nikon with MF is devoid of the matrix metering… So you have the choice between auto-all and shut up and something bringing you back at least 20 years ago…

>> The Leica is what they are measured by, these new manuals.<<

Both economically and by concept I see nothing really comparable. Hexar RF is not a really mechanical camera and Bessas are not in the same league at all. Nikon is a SLR and no more 100% mechanical (it is an FA 3)…

>> Yes you are right it was, and guess what it still is. Okay it has not got a big auto tele for sport, nothing is perfect use Nikon I do.<<

Allen, I don’t compare the M (or any other RF cameras for that matter) with SLR’s… This would be perfectly stupid… I know the virtues of RF cameras and their limits too. As I’m not a wild life or sports photographer, I don’t need a big AF tele-lens… Anytime I need something good for a manual tele-lens or macro-photography I use a medium format SLR (better surface, better image). And I won’t hesitate to use a large format should the movements associated with such cameras were necessary. But for me, wildlife or sports photography taken aside, I see absolutely no need for a SLR in small format photography… for the very reasons you expose thereafter…

>> Street or scenic is still the same, as are family shots. The Leica or any manual makes you move in close (sound like a Leica brochure) be part of the action, and you will be a part of it.<<

I don’t need to go manual in exposure to be near the action or be part of it, I need a RF small format camera… This is the power of the concept. Would it be mechanical and fully manual or fully electronic (with the option to go manual at will) it doesn’t change the basic concept. The second camera will simply permits you, should the need arise, to get a very fleeting subject with much more chance of success… Did you ever “steal” an image? I did. And this is the way I proceed: I simply use a wide angle pre-set with the needed depth of field and take the picture at waist level without framing the scene… The exposure to use may be tricky to determine and even if it is not so, to rely on a matrix here will guarantee you the result technically speaking. The same applies when you put your camera over a crowd your arms fully extended …

>> People will forget about you, then you will get shows shots that the auto zoom boys/girls have wet dreams about. And you will enjoy yourself being part of the party. The price is knowing your bus short cuts seldom work. Bit like soaps chewy but empty. I am sure Mr c made mistakes still did not stop him from being the man. <<

He was the man… And I am the man when I switch my Hexar RF to auto mode too… I know where and when to switch it and why for… Where is the difference ? Easy to know: should Mr. C have had simply an M5 instead of an M3 his negatives would have been correctly exposed… And more than often a fleeting subject or a fleeting expression on the face of someone, a play of light I have captured, because I was on AE mode and fully concentrated on my subject bothering only to the composition and the choice of the moment…

>> Next part Why should I bother with all that stuff, the picture is all what matters who cares how I got there, what’s wrong with photoshop anyway its the results what count. <<

Yes it is the result that counts, what it can convey to you and the others looking at your picture.

>> It does matter, to who, you. Really we can surf the web copy any picture. Tell all our friends look what i took! they would think we are a wonderful photo man/women.<<

Are you really serious and what this deviation from the subject exactly means ? My pics are mine the pics from other people are theirs … MY result counts for me.

>> Or you could wander around New York in the rain, be accosted by the local police. and lowlifes. Half your exposures have not worked ,because you did not use a exposure meter (you listened to that troll). <<

What troll at all… To be accosted with local Police (and even clubbed when working) was something I practiced more than often when I was a reporter. But I don’t see any advantage of having missed some good pics for not using a meter…

>> But there was a couple of shots which did, and they are not that bad , even pretty good. Need I say more. <<

What you seem to have some difficulty to admit is between the shots you missed some might have been even more evocative and powerful than the mere two you brought back and I see no reason to spoil such work by a bad exposure. I would have simply brought back some more interesting usable shots on the way. Of course if my composition was poor and the moment I click was wrong the fact to have a well exposed piece of s...t means absolutely nothing… But these parameters are not influenced at all by using a meter or not… Nor if this meter is hand held, TTL, manual or AE… But in some occasions AE metering will probably have permitted me to get an interesting shot I would have missed otherwise… It is entirely up to me to chose the moment I have to use it.

>> M7 Well, I must admit I have posted a few blood boiling statements about this camera. Why to have some fun! not really. And what is , should I buy a r or m when the r is half the price about. Well I will post these answers tomorrow to quote Mr Sparkie I have run out of juice. <<

To compare the R to the M is something I’ll never do (unless you want to compare the lenses of similar focal length). I really don’t care about the R being half the price of the M. it is not the same philosophy, nor the same use. But to compare the M7 to the Hexar RF seems to me very relevant. Unfortunately for Leica, I think the M7 few advantages are not worth the increase in price (more than twice). Should the M7 had brought really significant new features, my opinion should have been different (it should have implied serious financial problems for me and a lot of frustration waiting to have the necessary money to buy it). I still admire the M6 but I’m not ready to spend so much for an all manual camera body using the same old shutter that was used 50 years ago. So to say for something which had been fully amortized since decades… I don’t want to add any commentary to that statement regarding the honesty of Leica practicing such a price for it. Enough said

Best regards

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 12, 2002.

Allen, you said: "My understanding of leica Ms is that you take the photo not the camera,that is the whole idea of the camera. Correct me if I am wrong."

You're not wrong but neither are you completely right, because your statement is too limiting. The same philosophy applies equally to Leica R. Many successful R users would be justifiably offended if they were told that the camera had taken the picture, not them.

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 13, 2002.

Anand held will help you train yoursef to think correct exposure.Before you use thik what the exposures will be right,the use the meter as a check.Soon you will not need it. The best meters on a camera is the simple one,if that is the way you want to go..Why,you know it will be wrong in certain situations.,backlite etc,therefor you can easly correct it.When we go to the 3D MATRIX WE ARE NEVER SURE IT IS RIGHT OR WRONG.how can we know when ti compensate.No metering system yet devised gets it right all the time.,by the time they do you wont need it anyway.Auto focus,good for sport,good for nothing else. I was reading a advert,this top photographer was showing how he had improved a landscape by enhancing the sky etc by using grands, warm ups.To my mind ,what he was saying was that he did not like the photo he was seeing,so he has changed it to what he wants to see.Should have used photo shop easer. Which leads me on to the thought to what is a photograph.. 1.A photograph is what is in front of the camera,love it or leave it. 2.A photograph ,or anything else which has been changed from the original should be called a Pictoral Image,not to get confused with a photograph.I am sure those Pictoral image makers would be get more satisfaction ftom a brush and canvas. And can some one tell me what the sklight filter is all about.Better still how have they fooled a lot of photographers into putting a piece of cheap glass in front of a expensive lense,seems to defeat the whole objectExcuse me can i use your window i would like to take a photo through it.Yet again another example of a gizzo to feed to the unthinking crowd.No wonder why we a have barking made nutters followed by people without a thought. Regard Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 14, 2002.

"Excuse me can i use your window i would like to take a photo through it.Yet again another example of a gizzo to feed to the unthinking crowd.No wonder why we a have barking made nutters followed by people without a thought"

Yes, no wonder!

Come to think of it, I think I preferred it all uppercase...

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), March 14, 2002.

Some one has upset him,was it me! Just for you..I saw a man who was not there,he was not there again today.I do wish that man would go away. Lots of love Allen

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 14, 2002.

Allen,

Sincerly, I tried to make you understand SIMPLE things and you are more and more answering aside of the question.

It is PHYSIOLOGICALLY impossible for ANY people even the best trained individual to get an exact numerical measure of light with the accuracy a meter have. And this is scientifically proven.

The human brain is sensitive to contrast and light level but can't give you a direct precise numerical reading like an instrument... You can "approach" a numerical value with training but you can't beat the precision of the instrument. This is sheer non-sense to pretend the opposite... All, even the best, of the production in photography before the meters came in general use are the product of the BROAD tolerances the film and paper combination once permitted in B&W. If some where exposed perfectly (say + or - 1/3rd of an f stop), it was only by chance. This "margin of error" does not extend to the 1/3rd of an f stop required by modern color slide films. Besides, not so long ago, when orthocromatic films were still in current use as day to day films, they were developped under the same kind of dark red light we still use in dark rooms for papers. So mistakes in original exposure were compensated for in the developper. That's why old days photography was a viable technic. These are things of the past.

Now I said (I don't know how I can make you understand that) the time you "guess" the right exposure (admitting you can do so taking into account the actual margin of error tolerated by modern films and papers in B&W) and then control the accuracy of your measure through a meter and set your camera accordingly, any fleeting subject justifiying the use of something automatic will be long gone.

They even will be long gone if you don't verify your guess and just set your camera to what you think is the right combination of speed and aperture. This is where you NEED automatism... The question is not to get the subject correctly exposed each time but that without it you get it 1 time in a 100 and with it say 50% of the time with a classical AE and 90% of the time with a matrix (I know it because I used it).

A simple meter (and I'm sure YOU KNOW that) is set to have a directly usable measure when the surface which is measured has a reflectance of 33% - the so-called neutral gray. Hence, if you want a TECHNICALLY correct exposure, you must measure on something akin to neutral gray which refers to a significant part of your subject. Having a simple AE will forbid you to do that so I agree with you here. Simple AE is a stupid device.

Now let's go to manual with TTL reflective measure. The sequence is as follows: frame for exposure following the rule exposed earlier, then set the camera manually (admitiing you have already chosen one of the settings following the old rule moving subject = speed rules, still subjects = DOF rules) then re-frame for composition then click.

This process take a time I will call T1. With an AE lock you just set the aperture in advance (hardly a problem to guess the minimal aperture compatible with the speed required for the subject as it is well within what a trained photograph will be able to... this is not a 1/3rd of an f stop business). Then you frame for exposure and lock the measure at the same time, then reframe and click... Precision is equivalent to manual mode and certainly faster and more precise than guesswork... So it takes you a duration I call T2. My experience has made me learn T2 is inferior to T1 but not so much for a trained individual. Conclusion AE lock may be a more comfortable mode than manual but not such a gain as to be a decisive advantage over manual operation with a TTL meter WITH A FLEETING SUBJECT.

Matrix metering is an entirely different process which is no more a metering process strictly speaking but an analysis of the image by a computer which also compares the results to built-in examples in its memory and much faster than your brain will do. Your evocation of a backlit situation proves you know NOTHING of the capabilities of these engineer's marvel. It DOES recognize a backlit situation and auto corrects it from the very moment your main subject occupates a certain surface of your composition and auto corrects it accordingly. In practice the result is TECHNICALLY good in 90% of the cases. So you can just frame and click with 90% chance to obtain a technically well exposed picture. So it is 10% LESS effcient than manual or AE lock + spot meter used by a good photographer... But its advantage over the two other technics is clear when you take into account the time you have to capture the subject. It would be utterly stupid to use a matrix metering when you have time to operate a way a careful thinking will be permitted to get a 100% correct exposure (moreover when you want to apply the Zone System and so go to interpetative photography - but remember it was devised for use with a large format camera in landscape phtography in mind, hardly the usual way to use an small format RF)but to do that you NEED TIME... For a really fleeting subject, YOU HAVE NO TIME... Trying the old way will lead you to no image at all in MUCH MORE than 10% of the time (the margin of error of the matrix metering)... Hence when you are forced into automatism, better to have one 10% wrong than to get nothing usable 90% of the time...

Matrix is a much better answer than AE lock in those situations and than manual operation with classical meter and of course much better than guesswork not because it is perfect but because it permits you to get the image you want with a tremendously increased probability.

Yes PROBABILITY as no system is perfect and certainly not the "human system"...

Now when you have situation that permits you to masterize the exposure yourself (by whatever mean you consider appropriate) it is better to go manual... My experience tells me a spotmeter directed by a good photographer brain being the safest way than to guess but if you want to guess I have no objection excepts, once more, the laws of probabilities will be against you even if you're trained. No human being is a lightmeter or has one incorporated in his brain (even Mr Caertier-Bresson, remember my example?).

What you (apparently) CAN'T understand is I don't care with very fleeting subjects if my matrix will not be 100% accurate when I know any other method - even much more accurate on the paper - will end up with missing the subject at all 90% of the time because it fails to satisfy the necessary speed to react and you can't rely on tolerance for an approximate pre-setting.

It doesn't create any barrier between me and the subject, and certainly NO BARRIER in my personal choice because I (and I ONLY) will decide when to use it or not, according to the situation and not any kind of lazyness...

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 14, 2002.

It would seem to me the cusp of your argument is for those fleeting shots full 3D matrix is the only answer.If this is not used good shots will be lost.The human mind will never be able to compete,which has been proven beyond doubt, am i correct in this assumption.

-- allen herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 14, 2002.

Allen,

In a certain way YES... At least the better answer we have in the present state of the art to get the maximum probability of success.

Same applies whenever you have to steal an image through a technic which excludes actual framing through the finder.

May I add, once more, I consider matrix metering absolutely useless and worst than manual setting of the exposure in any other case?

My "philosophy" is ever use the most appropriate and safe technology to get the picture you have in your mind... It is THAT simple.

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 14, 2002.

Two random thoughts: 1) Has anybody here ever really been left "stranded" by a dead battery? If not, then why is everyone so concerned about the battery dependency of the M7? 2) How can Erwin Puts, in one article, praise the M6 for its manual operation (for the way it keeps photographer in touch with the subject, etc.) and now praise the M7 for its automation which allows photographer to concentrate on the scene before him/her?

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), March 14, 2002.

Right on the spot Douglas!

You write (and ask):

>> 1) Has anybody here ever really been left "stranded" by a dead battery? If not, then why is everyone so concerned about the battery dependency of the M7? <<

Yes it happened to me with a voracious Nikon F4S but I say "guilty Your Honor"... It was entirely my fault I should have had spares. That's why I don't think to have to rely on spare batteries is more a liability than to rely in spare film... What photographer will pretend not to have run out of film in the midst of a scession ? If one let us know... I think we will have a winner in the Liar of the Year contest ...

But, despite the mechanical perfection and alleged durability of a Leica M my M5 quit me without warning last year with a broken shutter. And if it happens you have no recourse. Mechanical things ALSO break sometimes...

So from where did come the myth of the superior reliability of mechanical cameras ?

Easy to explain: the first all electronic cameras were unreliable because they were not well protected against the hardships of professional photography. Then a mechanical camera was really much more reliable. Nowadays it is no more than a legend referring to a time long past. Sometimes legends are hard to die in the photographic world (sigh).

>> 2) How can Erwin Puts, in one article, praise the M6 for its manual operation (for the way it keeps photographer in touch with the subject, etc.) and now praise the M7 for its automation which allows photographer to concentrate on the scene before him/her? <<

In the Leica legend is mixed a lot of truth and many mythes.

Manual operation has NOTHING to do with contact with the subject but rangefinder small format camera has (no big tele-lens, few use of flash because of the ability to focus perfectly at wide aperture, small size of the camera). With ANY small format range finder camera (Note: Contax G2 IS NOT in this category and no AF camera is) you muist be near to your subject and part of the action. But this truth was lost as for years the Leica M was the only range finder camera with interchangeable lens in production. And as it was ALSO a mechanical camera, there was an identification between small format RF and manual camera.

The same applies (but we are going farther from your question) to the famous "special thing" in Leica phtography. One thing is true, the rendition and quality of Leica lenses is unmatched. The other part is a myth, the way a Leica M user takes pictures does influence the final rendition but not because the body is a Leica: ANY small format RF camera using the same lens will produce the same kind of work. I do that everytime I take pictures with a Leica Lens on my Hexar RF (so most of the time). It has to do with the limits imposed in focal length by RF concept.

What Mr. Putts has discovered through the M7 is something I discovered when I switched to the Hexar RF about a year ago: AE-lock mode gives you comfort and slightly faster operation and a tad more concentration. Hence, manual operation has NOTHING to do with the proverbial Leica style. But he has not yet fully analyzed the consequences of this discovery. So goes his traditional plea for the Manual M6 which is - in fact - sheer non-sense.

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 14, 2002.

To be honest, I've got a lot of bad experience with different, completely battery operated camera. If the camera must be stored in a sort of damp environment (in Europe much more common than in the US), the electrical contacts can corrode nastily. The corrosion is sometimes even invisible, so You have to know it, that something like this awful phenomenon is possible. After cleaning the contacts with a match (the clean wooden part) everything worked well and there was no scratch at the contacts. So keep a cleaning tool with You, if You go out! Wooden matches and toothspicks are quite well. If there are security concerns, just shorten the toothpicks to 1/3 inch (1 cm). That's long enought to hold them tight without touching the surface of the electrical contacts.

-- Christoph-Erdmann Pfeiler (christoph-erdmann.pfeiler@gmx.de), March 15, 2002.

Hello Christoph,

I'm also living in Europe, France to be precise. The question you raise about contacts is a real one but any system should be treated "a the book says" don't they?

In case of prolonged storing of a battery operated "something" you have to remove the batteries from the device. Otherwise contact corrosion will ensue... Since years it is clearly indicated on each booklet accompayning cmaeras with batteries...

As dampness has also a potential extremly preoccupating effects on lenses in the way fungus may develop on the lens coating, it is also advisable in such conditions to use silica gel bags to avoid any problem. Remember a lens having fungus problem is definitively destroyed. You may clean the glass but the coating will remain destroyed where the fungus had set in.

Considering this problem has no remedy and concerns any camera, mechanical or electronic, I don't think the obligation to remove the battery set during prolonged storage is really a very considerable liability...

Friendly

François P. WEILL

-- François P. WEILL (frpawe@wanadoo.fr), March 16, 2002.

99 Replies could make this the longest thread in our history, or perhaps the second-longest, after the one about what everyone does for a living.

I couldn't resist making it 100.

-- Bob Fleischman (RFXMAIL@prodigy.net), March 16, 2002.

Must add that extra 1

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 23, 2002.

When you read these comments from this Forum it makes you think

Here's my reaction: 1) M7 is quick. But if you're using M7 and M6 you have to pay attention. Occasionally I almost forgot to adjust M6 per metering because you quickly get use to the M7 selecting an aperture for you. (Remember, the situations I was shooting under were fast and furious). 2) The shutter release takes some getting use to. Technically it may have less lag time, but in practice it definately has a sort of sticking point where it locks the AE reading. It threw me a couple of times when I was under pressure. 3) The M7 did something weird during prolonged shooting with lulls in between. It suddenly failed to respond when I pressed the shutter button. And I mean failed to respond at all despite pressing hard on the shutter button. And I couldn't advance the film. I immediately flipped the on/off switch and it was okay then. I don't know if the on/off swich was slightly moved and caused it or what --but it wasn't showing the red "off "dot. I certainly do hope this is user error and not a "BUG". I think it may shut down after not using it for some period. so that will take some getting use to. 4) In back lit situations the M7 is no faster than a M6. You have to fool the meter by reading some correct middle tone , lock the AE, then recompose. With the M6 its just a matter of opening up with out all the rigamaroll.

-- Allen Herbert (allen1@btinternet.com), March 25, 2002.