I was going to post on the post-mortem thread, but felt that this was more inviting a new thread. I was watching our "performance" last night and a few things came to mind.

1) Tactics - Our inability to play for a point. Two games against known contenders, and us not having Bellamy or Dyer our two main creative influences. What we really needed was to SACRIFICE, yes sacrifice an attacking option for a defensive one, shut up shop take a point and go home. Boring ??? Maybe... but think where we'd be if we'd have drawn these two games.

2) Robert is a winger. We must realise this. We paid 9.5 million for a winger, not a midfield general or a striker. He's a pacy winger, maybe not much better than Gillespie when he was here.

3) Carl should not have been playing last night, but in retrospect maybe the whole side shouldn't have either. It is utterly shocking that as a team (save Shay) we were TOTALLY unprepared and TOTALLY uninspired, but most disheartening was the fact I thought we were intimidated by them.

4) How can we have been so dependant on Bellamy? These two games have shown our lack of confidence going forward and that his WORK ETHIC and "lust" for the ball is not seen by anyone else in the side. Bellamy has been our player of the year and anyone who thinks otherwise (Shay has been super as well) need look at these two "performances" to set the record straight.

5) Our Champions League ambitions need to be put on hold. We are NOT ready to compete at that level. Let's take the UEFA place and see where it takes us. To go to the CL next season without DRAMATIC improvement to the squad would be embarassing. Certainly we don't need the money that bad.

Howay...TIWY!

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Answers

Absolute Proponderance....

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Calm down, calm down, calm down. Look at the table. We are still building, were not there yet but things still look great. Our champions league ambitions must NOT be put on hold. We may not be ready for that now but who knows what will happen in the summer. We do need the money that much. Get a grip and be happy. Arse, ManUre and pool are probably better than us, but I think we are better than the rest of the league and we are building a very good young squad. Apart from that I agree with you:)

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Sparxx, last night was ONE game. After the Man Utd and Chelsea defeats, we had similar wailings and gnashings of teeth. The truth is quite simple: we aren't as good as these teams. No one connected with the club has ever suggested that we are. On that basis, I think we need to keep a bit of perspective. However;

1. Tactics. You have to suit your formation to your personnel and I'm not sure we had the spare defensive personnel to make any real difference. Acquiring the personnel may be a priority in the summer. However, tactical bollox are dropped by the very best sides. Liverpool lost and drew to Southampton - someone f....d up somewhere wouldn't you say? We might have done better tactically last night, but any manager will tell you that it's teams not tactics that win matches.

2. Robert. Whatever. We've all got an opinion.

3. Demeanour. That's another matter of opinion.

4. Bellamy has been our player of the year but we lost to Chelsea and Man Utd with him so we can't say categorically that we'd have done better last night with him. We didn't do any better at SJP with him against Liverpool. What we would have had was the pleasure of a United player testing their defence. We miss Bellamy and Dyer certainly, however, and have to hope that one or both will be back soon.

5. Champions League. I couldn't disagree more. As long as we manage our expectations and aim for revenue from phase one and dropping into the UEFA slot after that phase, we will be fine. Remember that Liverpool and Arsenal are among the best sides in the CL.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

I agree with some of what you said sparxx but I think that most of the team, i.e everyone but Robert worked their socks off last night. We didn't have the class but they kept going.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Dougal - how can you say that "we are not as good as these teams" referring to Chelsea, 'Pool and Manure in one breath and say go for CL in the next. I'll tell you something right now. IF we do not learn how to go and take a point from these places we do not deserve to be in the CL. Away form is everything and the one thing we can not expect is to win 1-0 at home and expect that to carry us through. Champions defend at home and win on the road. It works the same way in all sport.

There's a time and place for "sticking" with the idea. That kind of thing was proven wrong with Keegan and I daresay we have not learned much since then. The best teams know when to shut up shop and go home. We can not be considered in that same breath. Personnell be damned, we need to be smart first and foremost.

You lot rag on about Robert as if he were Ginola. He never came here proclaiming he was going to replace him and as I said he's naught but a pricy, pacey winger. He's had quite a few miserable displays this season... but he's a winger and wingers are taken out by backs that's all. Did we overpay for him? That's not my decision here. I just want to clarify, you lot made him out to be more than he is.

Bellamy, sure he didn't score when we lost those matches, but you could never discount his WORK ETHIC. Last night was the worst performance by the team this year... bar none. We got what we deserved.

I say we learned quite a bit about ourselves the past two games. Adversity and how we handle it is upon us. We need to learn to adapt to different situations, develop NEW ideas, and lastly realise that the difference between us and them right now is far greater than 3 points or 6...we still have a LONG way to go.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Nobody is saying we don't have a long way to go. And if your embarrassed now god knows what you've been like the last few years. I think we need some perspective.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

being embarassed in a format such as CL is what I meant. The past few seasons haven't been embarassing, they've been learning experiences. Perspective is what I'm all about.... just awake to the fact that at this time aside from $$$$ we have NOTHING to gain from a place in CL.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Sparxx, how do you know that was our worst performance of the season? I wasn't at Anfield last night but I can say that Derby, Liverpool and Spurs at home would take some beating in terms of crap performances.

Secondly, as I say, Liverpool, Arsenal and Man Utd are among the very best teams in the Champion's League. By definition, there are poorer sides in the CL and if we limit our expectations to only doing the first phase and maybe getting the UEFA spot that opens up to CL drop- outs, we will get an enormous benefit from the whole experience as well as vital revenue which may buy the perfect strike partner for Craig Bellamy. Personally, if we get into the CL, I will do my very utmost to go the games and if we get shown up in the Nou Camp, so f....g what? At least we've been there.

Secondly, you talk about "getting smart" etc. I think you need to look at the age and cost of our defence. We had 2 22 yearolds and a 23 yearold as well as Dabs at the back last night who collectively cost about 3.5 million pounds. This has to be one of the youngest and cheapest backlines in the PL and it will get "smarter" as it gets experience. In the meantime, we have to be realistic about what they are capable of.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

we should always want to play at the highest level. Saying no to CL means that the likes of Dyer, Bellamy, Hughes, Jenas, O'Brien will not gain the benefit of experience for another year. Why stall their progression by backing away from the learning experience.

I feel this is like a team at the bottom suggesting it may be a good thing to go down to sort things out. Or a team in the First Division not pushing for promotion cos they will come straight back down.

We do not have the squads of Man U, Liverpool, and Arsenal, and probably not even Leeds and Chelsea, we won't have the tranfer kitty to improve the squad if we aint in the money spinning European competitions.

Last night was not our worst performance of the season by a long way. We lost by the same score at West Ham, we lost at home to Spurs, we only just beat Peterboro.

In my (blinkered ?) eyes we are steadily improving. We lost last night and that has had its usual end of world effect on here. But we were missing our two players who worry the opposition the most. The teams with bigger squads have depth to cope with this, we don't yet. A good side needs a critical mass of at least 4 players who scare the opposition. For us that is Bellamy, Dyer, Solano and Robert sometimes. With any of these missing or not performing then the load on the remaining ones increases as teams can double mark without getting punished. With all 4 flying teams can't cope with us. (Jenas will become the 5th very soon).

Many years ago the going for the Cheltenham Gold Cup was poor, just the sort of ground that Desert Orchid didn't like. Despite this, on the day of the race, his owner decided to go for it. Dessie won. Th efollowing year he was injured, by the foillowing year retired. If his own hadn't bought the lottery ticket he couldn't have won the jackpot. If we aim for the Uefa Cup we are setting our stall out as being in the second tier, we should be aiming higher than that.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

A more recent example is Sarah Hughes at the Olympics. Didn't skate very well in her short program, but managed to finish in 4th place going into the long program. There were 3, possibly 4, skaters in the comp who most agreed were far better than her, more experienced blah blah blah. Figuring she had no realistic chance to win the gold, and not likely to win any kind of medal unless the 3 above her slipped up, she went into her long program relaxed, looking to skate her personal best and determined to enjoy the experience.

She skated beyond even her own expectations, the skaters above her faltered more than anyone would have predicted, she won the gold.

Moral for us....just relax, enjoy what we've achieve so far, look to do our best and let the champs fall where the may. Or possibly by May. ;-))

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Eee, Macca - years back I was at Kempton Park for Boxing Day (must have been around the time of his Gold Cup win) and Desert Orchid was pulled out of it because of the soft ground. But such was his popularity he was paraded in front of the stands to an ovation! Great horse, who had real character :-)

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Ciara, that's a wonderful example. Sarah Hughes getting that gold was the highlight of the Olympics.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

one season champions doth make? Improvement eh? While no one dreams of silver more than me, I think you must admit the difference between us and the "cream" of the CL crop. You will note I said NOTHING critical of the players or the fact that we have shown improvement. I have simply said that until we LEARN how to take a point at vital times like this, and yes I know we have a bunch of babies running around out there, that division between us and the "cream" will remain. I ask about not what lies ahead, but what we NOW do to improve that much more.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Dougal, that was certainly a sporting highlight, but an NBC cameraman (woman?!) lingering a bit too long on Alexei Yagudin changing during the exhibition was far and away my personal highlight! ;-D

Sparxx, you do have an excellent point about us needing to learn how to draw. We certainly do, but it isn't going to change overnight. Just another lesson(among many) for us to learn.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

For some of the players the improvement will come through maturity, playing more games at a higher lever, learning from playing against better players. In Dyer, Bellamy and Jenas we have 23, 22 and 19 year olds who look sparklingly good. As I like to mention, they are all younger than Peter Beardsley when he joined us inthe old second division, he had 2 more years before he was an established top division player worthy of an international cap.

Some areas we are woefully weak, and that has to be the summer priority. We have got by without a left back since Domi departed (maybe before for some people), that has to be a key area to address. We need another player with the pace of Dyer and Bellamy to add to the critical mass of scary players, for me that should be as a Shearer replacement but clearly that is highly unlikely.

To attract top players be they established or young we need to be comepting at the highest level. If you were Jenas and say Sunderland, Newcastle and Middlesboro came in for you where would you go at the moment, where will you be playing against the best, where will you been seen on the highest stages. If we're in the CL and don't get through to the second stage this has to be better for the club as a whole than a run to the quarter finals, say, of the EUFA Cup.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Sorry disagree on learning to draw. Man U and Arsenal have learned how to win. All their games. If you win all your games you win things, if you draw games you drop two points. One away win is the same away points as three away draws. I don't really see the usefulness in taking those odds. Once you get the mindset of believing you can grind out a draw you will start to implement it in games that you should be winning.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Not necessarily. If we're in a match where we're really up against it, it's better to learn how to grab at least 1 point than to walk away with nothing. ManU, Arse, etc don't win all their games. True we should always try for all 3, as they do, but there's nothing wrong in a draw either. It's still 1 point more than a loss.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

"1) Tactics - Our inability to play for a point. Two games against known contenders, and us not having Bellamy or Dyer our two main creative influences. What we really needed was to SACRIFICE, yes sacrifice an attacking option for a defensive one, shut up shop take a point and go home. Boring ??? Maybe... but think where we'd be if we'd have drawn these two games."

Spot on!

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

so why didn't Arsenal come to St James looking for a draw against top class opposition ?

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

It's not so much learning to draw, but learning not to lose.

If you go aiming to keep it tight at the back and hope for a bit of luck on a break then you can't go wrong (against teams that you would struggle against)

Obviously this is only for the huge games where we have been lacking in players.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

MacB, cause we aren't in their class...yet. ;-)

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

The strange thing is, by all accounts we looked as if we were playing for a draw yesterday.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Actually, I don't want to open up the chances debate again but our profligacy with chances all season has suggested that, in games where we got few chances, we'd struggle. And so it came to pass.

For me, the big worry is that it's donkey's years since we scored from open play, even with Bellamy.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

we have 27 points from 15 away games, at those levels we should be getting 32-34 points from away games this season what do you people want ???

The games we have lost are West Ham, Fulham, Man U and Liverpool, the first two we should be expecting to win if we are CL challengers, the other two I guess you want to be draws, or not defeats. The two wins at Arsenal and Leeds would also be probable draws, I'd assume. So 4 draws from a more measured approach would give us 4 points, or we go for it and get six ?? Should we be killing the games at Highbury and Elland Road as we have a point in the last minute, or should we piling forard and winning the games ?

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

Depends on the situation of any given match. If we're having the better run of the play, then we should be going for it while doing our best to protect the point we've got. If we're being outclassed then a point is better than going all out and getting nothing because we've allowed them space to score.

Can't speak for anyone else, but for me it's not all or nothing. Especially until we can learn to defend 1 goal leads.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

MacBeth - the major point here is that we are currently a struggling squad with injuries. We are having to play players a la Ameobi and Lua Lua and for some extent Jenas out of sheer lack of depth. The SMART thing is to know the strength of the hand your dealt and walk away with something. You never bet the house on a pair. It's playing suicide and we got burned by it. I would have kept Acuna in midfield, played Bernard at the back as an extra defender and sacrificed Robert or Solano.

I would have been happy playing 5 at the back and a defensive midifeld, knowing that one point is better than none. Two points form these two games is far better than what we got.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

The problem with that approach, Sparxx, is that you could play 10 in front of the goalie and a first rate striker may still score. And if you've stuck yourself into a "draw at all costs" formation, you'll never retrieve the game by scoring.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

yes we lost 4-3 at Anfield two years in a row with wildly differing formations, the second one we played 10 defenders in the first hald and Liverpool were good enough to be 3 up at half time. I'm not saying don't defend I'm saying that our team strength is attckaing not defening

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

which leads to my point, we must be able to adapt when adverse situations call for such things. Losing Bellamy and Dyer constitutes adverse conditions especially when we are playing Arse and 'pool.

-- Anonymous, March 07, 2002

So, Sparxx, what did you make of our tactics, work ethic and so on on Saturday?

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2002

Personally it fucks me off that they weren't up for it enough in the previous 2 games but were on saturday night....or alternatively that the tactics were shit in the previous 2 games...

Take it whichever way you want it..bunch of bottling no hopers...

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2002

was that a half empty bottler, or a half full bottler ??

-- Anonymous, March 11, 2002

proves my point actually Dougal. We should be playing at that level all the time. Confidence or not, it's Bobby's job to put a team out there that's capable of at least securing a draw. That's what we did Saturday, albeit we should have won, but a draw has kept us alive.

If we could honestly sit back and say we lost to better sides, that would be one thing. The fact is, we knew we could beat Arse, and still played like sh*t, and against 'pool... we didn't even try.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2002

Sparxx, that's the eternal dream: getting everything right. Football being the glorious game that it is, it will never happen.

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2002

I think the opposition often don't lie down and die against us, and that they play to their strengths and against our weaknesses. The view seems to be that if we're missing key attacking players we should be able to replace them with adequate defensive players and get a draw.

If we were playing, say, Arsenal and they, for wahtever reasons, are without Henry, Pires, Bergkamp, do we change to attack them, even without Bellamy/Dyer, or do we attack again ? When do we think about our game plan more than the oppositions ?

Ideally we'd have two each of Shay, Dyer, Bellamy, Robert, Solano and when one is injured we drop the other one in. Arsenal showed even they cannot do that against a side missing their best two players. I'd suggest Man U can't cope without RVN really.

The argument around playing differently without Dyer/Bellamy should be turned upside down, to show it's nonsense (in my eyes !). If O'Brien, Dabs and Hughes were injured should we mitigate our circumstances by picking exta attacxkers like Shola, Lua2 and Cort to compensate ?? Clearly not, so why do it the other way around ?

-- Anonymous, March 12, 2002