I could use some help with some aggresive behavior with my alfa blue heeler, I have enough experience to see some danger signs with him and I am not one to play the lets pretent that didn't matter, until it gets so bad someone is hurt.

I am pretty sure of what needs to be done [he is at about step one of three steps to being put down] but I would like some "back up" and help with getting my husband to understand what the deal is with the dog.

Thanks.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), March 05, 2002

Answers

I've seen enough dogs in my 37 years to make me hate the species for ever. I don't, my dog is my right arm, but we've boarded enough pampered "excused" hounds over 30 years to wonder about the depth of stupidity people can reach. Aggresion is an asset, you simply have to sort out position and direct the enthusiasm. E mail me I'll talk to your hubby.

-- Ross (amulet@istar.ca), March 05, 2002.

I have two blue heelers. What is yours doing? They are really a one person dog and they will pick the person. My older heeler loves my husband and that is her person tho she is freindly to everyone. My younger heeler is my dog so she says LOL and loves my family but don't let anyone else around or she will take a arm off, so she thinks, but has never bitten anyone. I keep mine undercontrol and don't let them around anyone unless they are with me! If my son or husband has anyone over they have to put the dogs out in the fence!! They don't watch them close enough to be safe as far as I am concerned. They are a high energy dog and if you don't keep them busy or with you at all times they will find thing to do on there own and that usally means trouble. They are a hearding dog and don't tire easy. They are as sturborn as a bull and you can't really change there mind on things, just teach them early or theres not much of a chance. I have grown up around these dogs and I would say they are Not A Kid Friendly Dog. I say that because kids play rough and heelers will find this a challenge!! If your looking for more of a family dog try an Australian Shepard. They are also a hearding dog but much better with kids and familys in genral. I also have a australian shepard that is wonderful!!! My heelers are pets but my aussie thinks he is one of us. Even lifts his paw and waves by by to guests when they leave. My husband and I got to spelling thing around him like (pointing at him and spelling outside) so we would not get him all excited if I didn't want him out in the rainstorm. Well he got to where he new what we were spelling so now we point and lip sink Out hahaha My husband always asks me when he wants to let him out because he dosn't want to clean him up when he lets him back in. I let them all in about 2 hours a night when we are in front of the TV. They are all really mellow in the house.

-- Teresa (c3ranch@socket.net), March 05, 2002.

Thumper, I too have an "Australian Cattle Dog"(previously know as Blue Heelers, Queensland Heelers et.) I would suggest you get in touch with first the parent club of AuCanDos, The Australian Cattle Dog Club of America, get to your more local(State)club, and go from there. I belong to the Cascade ACD club and they have experts on our breed there to help. I would like to see you concentrate on finding people close to you. Sometimes, as you know, a visit from someone right to your place to observe you and the dog is a good thing. You are well versed in this breed, I "read" that through your post, so you want input from others who deal with ACD's on a regular basis. Our State Club(Oregon)has a website and prehaps yours does too?

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), March 05, 2002.

Sorry about the abrupt closing, hit "enter", I just hate it when that happens!(am I going blond? LOL ) Also, if you get in touch with a local ACD club you can also catch up on what is happening in your area re herding trials and shows. A visit to a trial and or show will introduce you to a lot of people within our breed and you can make some great contacts there also and talk this over with people who have "been there done that". I hope you will let us know how things go. Every dog of this most individual breed is different and takes different handling and I wouldn't presume to try this with a post. It is potentially too serious. Keep in touch, I am a bit anxious about how you do. LQ

-- Little Quacker (carouselxing@juno.com), March 05, 2002.

Hi, Thumper! I'm by no means an expert on blue heelers (I would DEFINITELY take Little Quacker's advice to heart ~ working dogs are a breed of their own). But I have learned a few things about dogs in general. I also have a few words of advice for you, if you'd like ~ a way you can become a sort of "canine behaviorist" on your own. This is gonna' be long so I apologize in advance. Take from it what you want, discard the rest and get ahold of an organization like LQ suggested. This is such a simple, yet convoluted and serious subject ~ like learning Spanish *grin* And you do get better at it the longer you've been doing it. And I commend you for wanting to learn instead of just taking the dog to the pound or putting him down without trying everything you can! Way to go! It still may not work out, and you may have to put him down, but you will have tried everything you can! GREAT for you!

Dogs are pack animals. They relate to you, your family and any other dogs you have as members of their pack. There should be a well- defined hierarchy in a pack. Indeed, canines' very survival in the wild depends on it. When that hierarchy isn't clear, dogs are confused and nervous ~ messing in the house, not being obedient and very probably being aggressive out of fear/nervousness or in an attempt to obtain Alpha status themselves so they can "make things right." When humans get dogs and don't understand pack mentality, they can unkowingly send the wrong signals, confusing the dog. Letting a dog hump your leg without a swift, strong recrimination ~ in the wild, that is a sign that you are submitting. Feeding a dog from your plate when they beg, even just a bite ~ another sign of submission. Some dogs even take allowing them beg (and stare at you without being stared down in return) as a sign of submission. When these signals are combined with other things people usually do for their dogs, it makes the dog think "dysfunctional family ~ better fix it or we won't survive." Then comes the aggression towards their owners. They usually aren't out to hurt you, just to usurp your authority. But it is also very possible that they ARE out to seriously hurt you, so be aware.

To understand pack mentality (and learn how to speak dog *grin!*), I've watched every single documentary on wolves (domestic dogs' closest wild relative) that I can find ~ some I've seen on PBS, some I've had friends with satellite dishes tape them for me, I've scoured all the local libraries for them. I watched how they interact with each other, paying close attention to the Alpha pairs and adapting it to humans doing it. I've watched my dogs interact/play with each other and friend's dogs for hours. I've gone on to watch obedience trainers (Uncle Maddy and the like), but take them with a grain of salt, comparing them to what I've seen firsthand and on the wolf shows ~ believing what I've seen on the wolf shows first. I learned a LOT more from the wolf shows and my own dogs. Overall, I've learned SO much! And been rewarded with the most obedient, calm and loving dogs a person can ask for. Like Teresa's dogs, ours know how to spell T-R-E-A-T! LOL! They stay in the house with us a lot, usually every night, and have incredible house manners ~ no toilet drinking, no counter surfing (we've left steak bones on a plate on the coffee table more than once and they're always there in the morning) and they'll bust a gut before they pee/poop in the house!

Number one most important thing I've learned is YOU and YOUR DH have to be the Alpha pair and make the dog understand that. Our three big lab mixes (two are lab and Rhodesian Ridgeback, one is that and fence jumper *grin*) know who is Alpha and are SO calm! They know their place in the "pack" and are content, calm and happy with it. They can be agressive, one in particular, but they take their cues from us. When we are nervous, they are watchful. When we're calm, they get mellow. Just a few words is all it takes to calm them down, call them to us or get them to stop on a dime no matter what they're chasing. Believe it or not, they even work cattle and sheep! Not nearly as good as a true cow or sheep dog, but plenty good for our needs. This year we'll teach them that chickens aren't for dinner unless they come from our hand.

When our oldest male was getting at that age where they challenge authority (most male dogs will, whether or not there's a distinct pack order), I should have seen it coming. He started getting nervous and disobedient for a couple weeks or so, especially around Kenny. Finally one night, he nipped Kenny in the face (barely drew blood, so Kenny's fine). Immediately, Kenny held him on his back, hand on Blue's throat, standing over him and talking loudly until Blue looked away. Kenny held him down in that pose, standing over him, still talking sternly with his hand on his throat and his other hand grabbing Blue all over his underside, for probably 10 minutes. When Blue got up, the "old Blue" was back immediately! He was VERY obedient, much more responsive to Kenny's commands than ever before, and a little nervous, but in an obedient way instead of the previous leery way, as if looking for the chance to make a sneak attack. Kenny watched Blue closely for the next few weeks and anytime the dog did anything even close to nipping him or disobeying him again, back on his back went Blue. It's two years later and he's never tried ANYTHING like that again. Kenny says over and over again that Blue is the best dog he's ever had. Our friends agree to that about all our dogs ~ they even "fight" over who would get "custody" if anything ever happend to DH and me. LOL!

Again, by no means am I an expert, most especially not when it comes to blue heelers. Also, I want to say again ~ get in touch with a breed organization and if their info conflicts with what I've said, believe them over me. I'm just a "dog watcher." LOL! But feel free to e-mail me privately if you'd like. We're going out of state for a week, leaving tomorrow morning, but I'll answer you soon when we get back if not today. And good luck!

-- Wingnut (wingnut@moment.net), March 05, 2002.

I second the effectiveness of that alpha move Wingnut described with holding a dog on his back. I have used it on my own dogs and once in a training situation, I got the owner's permission to use it on a mostly grown Pyr male. His owner was a woman who couldn't master him at all and in training, anytime she gave him a command, he would grab his lead and growl at her. One of the things we did routinely was swap dogs. I had a GSD, as did another woman but in addition to the Pyr, we also had a Rottie. When it was my turn to work with this Pyr, he grabbed the lead and growled at me. I'm 5'4" but I put this dog on his back before he knew what hit him. I had a handful of his fur/skin on either side of his neck and I was kneeling over him, holding him down with my hands and body weight. I used his ruff to keep him from turning his head to bite either of my hands and to keep him from lunging at my face. As Wingnut's husband did, I growled right back at this dog and added a little yelling and screaming for good measure. Finally, he relaxed a little but when I also relaxed, he started up again. I thought for a while I had a tiger by the tail and couldn't let go but he finally submitted. He never gave a minute's trouble to any of the women in our training group except for his owner. She tried the same move when she had him in the rotation again but she was halfhearted about it. He was the boss until the day he died and the worst example of a Pyr I've ever known. Sadly, all of his faults could be traced to his owner rather than bad breeding, temperment, etc. I've known plenty as we couldn't keep livestock without them. If you are willing and able to be just one ounce more determined than the dog, the alpha move will help. Also find a copy of the books on dog training by the monks of New Skete. Excellent reference.

-- marilyn (rainbow@ktis.net), March 05, 2002.

Be very careful about the "alpha rolling" technique. I've had cattle dogs for years and not every situation is "right" for this technique and in some breeds it can wind up being a dangerous undertaking. The very best thing for you to do right now would be to follow Quacker's advice. Contact ACDCA if you can or even join one of the MANY "lists" available for cattledogs (email me if you'd like some more info) in order to find someone familiar with cattle dogs that is near you that can actually observe the behavior and what leads up to it (sometimes verbal explanations are just not enough). Do this soon.....before someone gets hurt! I've been there so I feel for you.....

-- Lisa in MI (sqrrlbabe@aol.com), March 05, 2002.

I have sent a LONG letter out about the problem if you would like a copy of it email me and I'll send it to you too. {until 3/31/02}

And so every one knows no children are in any danger, and so far we just have a growling/obedience problem that must be 'nipped in the bud. Thanks.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), March 05, 2002.

And I know I was spelling alpha wrong before, My brain just wouldn't give the correct spelling up as I was writing at first.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), March 05, 2002.

I had read this man's book called "Jelly Bean vs. Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde". This man is located in Petaluma CA, and there is contact information.

Meisterfeld & Associates 448 Seavey Lane, Suite 9 PETaluma, California 94952 Phone: (707) 763-0056 FAX: (707) 763-1539 E-mail: meisterfeld@dogwhisper.com

http://www.dogwhisper.com/books-ordering_info.html

-- Joyce Dingman (joycedingman@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.

I want to thank Joyce publicly for the site she listed, It explains what I couldn't figure out to put in words of my own, it shows the very way that my grandparents taught me to handle animals, [and children too, even though I'm far from perfect with it]

With this site and the letters from every one else who has been helping me out, I am sure that Jacob will be fine, and my husband will finaly be able to understand what I'v been trying tell him for the past year, well, I have lots of reading, and book marking, to do now, but I'll get you all posted, (ah, a pun, I'm feeling much better) bye for now.

-- Thumper/inOKC (slrldr@yahoo.com), March 06, 2002.