Murray, get something done. Now. Stop fucking fiddling, because Rome is more than burning, it’s a fucking raging inferno. If you are not capable of action then get out and let someone in who has balls and ambition. Fucking Maz from club reps shows more fire than you! Are you actually bothered? Do you really care? Tell me, how comfortable is your 5 star boardroom at the moment? Stop revelling in your self made glory attained when you had no choice but to get a new stadium. I think your naming of it speaks volumes. You live in cloud-fucking-cuckoo land. The Stadium of Light!!! Names like that belong to BIG clubs not happy to be in the premier league wannabes. Get your head out of Tony Blair’s arse and take some action. Sack somebody, anybody. I am heartily sick of trying to defend the football club I love from outsiders, mainly of the black and white sort. You don’t get much of that in your ivory tower do you? I think I know what your plan is. You want to be the big fish in a small pond. The small pond being the fucking Nationwide. You will glow with pride when clubs like Crewe and Burnley praise the stadium and the set-up. But now we are in the top league ( just) no one says this to you. You see, you are now competing on a level playing field and you cannot hack it. Mrs ‘gobshite’ Reynolds appears to be an attractive alternative to you at this moment. At least she cares enough to bollock people. Take a look at the crowds now. You can kiss them goodbye. And it’s all down to you and your ‘policies.’ “Spineless”, “shite”, “under-performing” etc etc are not the sole preserve of the team. It’s at all levels of a football club and you are the biggest culprit. Do you want to break the chairman’s record for the most relegations? You are well on your way and you are taking me and lots of others on your downward spiral. Get your arse into gear or get it out of the door!

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2002

Answers

These are my words and my sentiments.

Bob Murray = TWAT (Catorgory A)

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2002

surprisingly different to the mackem i met in the pub after the spurs game who seemed to blame it all on Bobby Robson...

dickheads.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2002

You have (well)lost me there>>>>>>>>>>>

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2002

SK

Is Murray more likely to be looking here than RTG ?

Just wondering like, cos even I know a cry from the heart when I 'hear' one.

Not much consolation maybe, but what gans round comes round, and sure as eggs is eggs, your turn'll come.

-- Anonymous, March 03, 2002

I can empathise with your plight soops, but don't expect much sympathy from black & white quarters. Remember, we've been there mate. With brass knobs on.

In fact, no, bugger it - SAFC fans have no right whatsoever to be whingeing to the extent that many of you are this season. After all, you ARE still in the Premier League (not staring into the bowels of the 3rd division and potentially total financial obliteration); several other teams are in much deeper sh&te than yerselves in the league - dozens in fact if you care to look outside the PL; you've got the infrastructure - fan base, ground capacity etc - to recover quickly and build again when things look up. I could go on, but if you mackems don't know your strengths then why should you expect your rivals to point them out for you ?

So what if you're having a relatively average year on the playing front ? Like everyone else (including us Mags) you've no divine right to success, so stop feeling sorry for yourselves and get behind your team. We've had to for too long - in fact we're still having to ferfuxsake - but you wouldn't expect us to ask you lot for sympathy now would ya ??

Either that or go support a more successful team ...

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Hmmm Loony, perhaps a tad harsh, but we have been there. I think it's the frustration of having the loot and not spending that pisses off soops and co. At least though you are not at the dark levels of dispondency we endured when we became a bliddy laughin' stock due to stupidity rather than anything you might get from tightness. you'll not be relegated, boro do that all the time for us, the original paragraph could be insert X here and used as a generic raging fan template....you are not alone.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Hehehe - if yer cannot kick a mackem when he's down then what's the point of shoes ?

Or should I be getting some therapy ?

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Two words: Lord Westwood.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

I have every sympathy with SK, we know how much it hurts when things are going badly. However, as someone else on here has already said, there is no divine right to sucess. Are sunderland are 'big' club in the truest sense of the word?

I don't actually feel they are in the sh*t actually. It's been a poor season, not helped by Reid's purchases but what is it they want exactly? What is a realistic aim for a club like Sunderland? Is Reid equipped to get them into Europe and sustain a challenge? Is a top 6 finish likely year after year? I haven't got the answers to these questions but I think some of their supporters need to think about it.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

That Mbomba or whatever thinks he's Tino with his bloody goal celebrations.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Sunderland is a big club with the third highest gates in the Premiership. I think it's turnover puts it in the top 25 in world football according to the last Deloitte and Touche report I saw. It is seriously underperforming.

I don't follow Sunderland close enough to have a clue what's going wrong, but I feel you need a more constructive approach than the letter above. The current management team won promotion from the nationwide and took you to a top 7 spot. They have since lost their way which suggests to me that Reid should be carrying the can. If so, Murray has to be ruthless and change things. That, however is no guarantee of success in itself, witness the disasters of Dalglish and Gullit with us. On the basis that most of Reid's time with you has been much more successful, maybe he deserves another season? After all, it would be a shame for us to lose "the best football song of all time" (as an Arsenal fan said after our cup final against them)

These things go in cycles. Remember when you're on the up again, that hardly anyone on here has made any great effort to put the boot in.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Kev, I was reading through a Newcastle fanzine from this time last year when we were in the same position as you lot (although I think we had a few more points just to add to the "probably safe but going nowhere factor") and a correspondent asked: "What does the club base its expectations of 52000 crowds after four seasons finishing in the bottom half of the table?". Elsewhere in the fanzine, people were bemoaning the fact that we had wasted so much money in the past while we had a decent manager who could probbaly use money wisely.

The point I'm making is that this is only temporary: who knows where you'll go next season?

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Great post superkev - right from the heart. I can feel the pain bonny lad, and sympathise with you. Suggestions that SAFC fans have no right to be whinging are hypocritical, because if we were going through similar problems - which we did in the recent past - we also would be screaming from the rooftops.

Not generally being @rsed with matters SAFC, I'm not entirely certain where the real problem lies. Reidy seems to be obsessed with not submitting to the 'star system', including the differential pay issues that this brings. This concern is entirely rational, and relates to the potential effect on team spirit/moral. If the associated rigor mortis within the SoL for buying the kind of top players you need to make the next transition can be laid entirely at Reidy's door, then I'm afraid he will never take the club to the very top.

If the problem is not of Reidy's making, and it is Murray who will not make the necessary money available, then he is the problem.

Ultimately - as I've said ad nauseum on here - the man at the top is the one who must carry the ultimate responsibility. If Murray knows that it is Reidy who is limiting the Club's progress he should/must find a replacement. If he doesn't do this he is culpable anyway.

My feeling is that both of them are at fault. Reidy's paranoia about acting against his instincts will make it extremely difficult for him to change. Murray has been badly burned by previous managerial appointments, has basked in the relative glory that Reidy has delivered, and will now be terrified to contemplate sacking him.

However, if Murray has real ambition to compete at the very top level - rather than just talking about it - he MUST rigorously assess what it is that is presently preventing the Club from moving forward. If he concludes that Reid is the problem he simply must get rid of him - or suffer the consequences. I get the feeling that Murray is naturally risk averse, in which case this will be a very difficult matter for him.

In my experience, businesses never stand still, they are either going forward or backwards: and when they are going backwards changing that direction becomes harder the longer you wait to take decisive action.

You certainly have my sympathies sk - even if not my hopes that SAFC solve the problem.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

For the sake of the Magpie song base, keep the monkey man! He gives us the only 2 songs worthy of singing :-)

It is odd to see makems come out with the vitriol we all felt not that long ago. Frustration and anger that our team is not making the efforts we know it to be capable of. As for the what to do about it...well. Like any club owner, you have to want to leave it all behind rather than be forced out. If Master Bates can fence his club's fans in and propose electrifying the security fences, sack successful managers on a whim, underachieve to a massive degree and STILL survive, what hopes for Murray being removed? His faith in the talking chimp is admirable, but is reminiscent of the monsters of smog's own insistence to stick with Bryan Robson...ultimately it's misplaced loyalty, and doing a disservice to the fans.

A club with the fan base the makems have (I hesitate to call them a big club...I'm sure you understand why (i.e. it's not true ;-))) should and could do better. But not with the hairy scouser at the helm.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

ooooohhhh we should be sympathetic just because yer a northeast neighbour????....HELL NO!!!! what is this???? Did we go to Mackemland when we were near the bowels of existence cryin fer understandin? We could have fallen off the edge of the earth and you lot would probably laughed yer asses off. The bleedin hearts that say "awww pooor Kev" on here make me ill...

Hey Kev... you want sympathy.... buy a friggin Hallmark card mate.... I take nothing but glee in knowing that we are far and away the better side this season. Your place in the Nationwide would be nothing more than what you deserve with the crap you've played this season.

I've often wondered what you get in "living" over here. I've never said much because you seem like a pretty genuine bloke even if you represent the crap that is RTG.

Oh and you can take this to your RTG mates.... Their tasteless revellry around here the past week or so is pure representation of what RTG is about. I will never understand why ANY OF OUR LOT would even GO over there, but believe me, I wouldn't throw ya a wooden nickle even if you were on yer deathbed.

No offense, Kev, as I said, you seem the ok bloke. You just seem to have got yer wires mucked up and been programmed wrong. I honestly think deep doon yer bleedin black and white, this is why you hang out with us lot so much!!!

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

We hate Sunlun and we hate Sunlun, We hate Sunlun and we hate Sunlun, We hate Sunlun and we hate Sunlun, We are the Sunlun haters...;-)

Quality lyrics for a quality song..

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Sparxx.

I do understand a lot of your feelings about this. But I was not aware that I lived in here!

Maybe I am following the old adage of keep your friends cloes and your enemies closer!

Most of the feelings you have just put up are shared by me but as I live in Whickham I have lots of contact with your lot so I am not as bitter or hateful as Sunderland based red and whites.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Well said Sparxx. I too cannot understand why people on this board are being so sympathetic to their plight. If the shoe were on the on the other foot they would have parties on the street of we were relegated.

Forget the Mackems, we should bury them. Anyone got a shovel?

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

For the record, I'm not in any way sympathetic to the plight of SAFC - read my post more carefully. In fact, I'm basking in it.

However, I am sympathetic to the frustration their loyal fans are feeling - we've been there, and I know exactly how they feel.

I detest the 'inanimate' entity called SAFC: I do not detest/hate their fans - because they are flesh 'n blood fanatical footy fans just like you and me.

Raw hatred in all it's manifestations should be actively discouraged: there are more than enough "real" problems in the world created by mindless hatred ffs!

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Anyone see Mr Sour Grapes in the Journal today saying he wasn't going to laugh at us being beaten by Arsenal? Erm, your team has 31 points and the people you are laughing at have 55....I know where I'd direct my emotions.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

I hope SAFC don't get relegated, although I do hope they stay up on goal difference alone though. That kind of anguish would be unbearable. I don't know who is in a worse plight, SAFC, Leeds or chelsea. All these teams have failed in remarkable style this year, each from a different combination of things. We've been there so it's nice to see someone else go through the ringer a couple of times, who's knows our season may yet collapse in spectacular leeds style.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Hey Clarky - I'm certain your "empathy" is warmly noted by those cretins on RTG....As Andy said... if the shoe were on the other foot....do you think for one bliddy second SK would be so charitable?

Yer a noble soul Clarky but you can't "dislike" the club and feel sorry for the fans...they are one and the same entity. Without the fans ... there is no club, and yes it works the same way here!

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Must be an age thing, Sparxx, cos like Clarky, I couldn't care less about Sunderland AFC, but I have a lot of time for makems who can give as good as they get in a civilised way.

Depends on the tone that's set, and as long as it doesn't get mindless and personally offensive, I find the cut and thrust very enjoyable and entertaining.

Life's far too short to hate guys who are exactly the same as we are, only they have a different label.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

howay PB... never let it be said that we aren't hospitable... just think... we could have run Kev outta here a long time ago. The fact that we tolerate him on here is more than enough. The fact that he wants us to feel sorry for his "boys" is stretching it.

Believe me "hatred" is a very harsh word....I divvent use it much save for those who deserve such rants. If you can honestly say those idiots who posted here last week were worthy of any bit of our "sympathy" then I have nothing else to say.

Certainly we have a few "nutters" amongst our ranks and I'd hope we would all hold ourselves to a higher code of conduct. Our rivalry with the Mackems will never be a 1up thing... the roots lay way too deep for that.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Sparxx, in Kev's defence I'm not sure that he was actually looking for or expecting sympathy, just telling us what he thinks about the currrent situation - and he gets asked about it often enough on this site. Bit harsh to say that we "tolerate" him as he seems to be good mates with a number of people on here, and he's a regular and interesting contributer. Still hope they get relegated mind......

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

By the way, for those who think Kev is a Black and White deep down...... remove a couple of sentences from his anguished tirade and it could definitely have been a Geordie's opinion on Sunderland & Bob Murray: . "Stop revelling in your self made glory attained when you had no choice but to get a new stadium. I think your naming of it speaks volumes. You live in cloud-fucking-cuckoo land. The Stadium of Light!!! Names like that belong to BIG clubs not happy to be in the premier league wannabes. I think I know what your plan is. You want to be the big fish in a small pond. The small pond being the fucking Nationwide. You will glow with pride when clubs like Crewe and Burnley praise the stadium and the set-up. But now are in the top league ( just) no one says this to you. You see, you are now competing on a level playing field and you cannot hack it. Take a look at the crowds now. You can kiss them goodbye. And it’s all down to you and your ‘policies.’ “Spineless”, “shite”, “under-performing” etc etc are not the sole preserve of the team. It’s at all levels of a football club and you are the biggest culprit. Do you want to break the chairman’s record for the most relegations? You are well on your way."

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

I'm with the Owd Bu99ers on this one. Can't abide the club (tho like Syme don't want them to go down) but some of their fans are OK.

Ah well - teks aal sorts aah suppose.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

The thing is sparxx we're talking about footy - it's a game, not World War friggin 3. While some Mags and mackems would have you believe the other lot eat their babies and have two heads, the reality is we're virtually the same people; they live 10 miles away; usually by virtue of a quirk of birth, some wear black & white, others red & white. Trust me, it's not the Crusaders and the fuggin Saracens.

I was born and bred a Geordie; I've supported the Toon for 35 years; all my family have been Mags for generations. Unlike some of my marras on here, I do want them relegated - in fact, I'll never achieve true happiness until SAFC are in the Doc Martens League (Div 2).

I happen to think real mackems have a bit of a funny accent, but anyone from south of Darlington wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a mackem and a Geordie. I happen to think most mackems are well balanced people - they have a chip on both shoulders about NUFC, and seem to spend a lot more time sticking pins in B&W dolls than we do with R&W dolls.

However, I'm sorry marra, but I don't hate mackems; never have and never will - because in my life there is no place for hatred over something as inconsequential as footy.

I want to enjoy my football - remember our 'discussion' over what I will always regard as the wonderful Keegan years? I want to enjoy football banter with the fans of other Clubs - like Derek Whiteside and me did with a couple of Arsenal fans in the Strawberry on Saturday - because it's part of the phenomena. It's what football should be all about, and used to be all about - entertainment, not tribal hatred, hooligans throwing chairs at each other, and smashing each others skulls with iron bars. That is the logical end result of the hatred that you are espousing, probably unwittingly. Think very carefully about it - it's the ugly face of football, supposedly a sport.

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

As one of the `auld bu££ar`s` or as I prefer to be called `a WFR` (winter fuel recipient) I have followed Graham`s cyber career with interest from afar. With him being a `Whickhamer` and having a few memories of my family I did feel a bond. Way back his initial posts on RTG under 2 names were par for the course for that particular type of forum and I am sure when I do meet him for a pint sometime he would cringe if I brought the subject up , That`s water under the bridge ,I would never use it as ammo on here or elsewhere . You see I believe when you join a club , you abide by the rules and general feeling within that club , RTG and this forum are a club of sorts the rules on here are pretty straightforward and we are happy to abide by them ,the value of anything in life is `You don`t know how good it is,tillyou have not got it` this applies to this wee club. Soops joined the club of his colours , admirable , followed their rules of one liners and ridiculous names, ( I laughed at Bigg Market Phone Box) once then it became a bore, followed the party line of slaggin off Toon and supporters, and then decided to have tea with the Vicars. His first few cups were laced with arsenic and stirred with bile , by the time he got to the crumpets his mood began to change, hell we are all football supporters, I can talk football on here, start a discussion, end a discussion, Sunlun forever , wind up now and then , they seem like decent people. Whether he still contributes to the RTG one liners I do not know or care , in fact thinking back I feel he sends his thought by letter to rtg. We tend to generalise a wee bit on here , good and bad in everyone , when its staring at you from a screen it tends to hit home further, football cyber idiots are a minute percentage of any club`s support, we give them too much air time. Superkev in his present vein is a welcome addition to this forum , and we need him at times to give us a KUTA especially since LR and Dancin Dave disapeared after their spat , jeez it was like waiting for the cars to hit the first bend in the Aussie Grand Prix. Just think if Dave was still on the go we could have got a team to play his lot before the Liverpool game, The Cabbage -v- The Strawberry it sort of sells itself don`t it, look after the stall ,away for a pint, *Carry on soops - if we get the real one , do we get you?

-- Anonymous, March 04, 2002

Hypocritical am I eh Clarky ? A bit judgemental for you that one maybe ? Allowing for the fact that (unfortunately) we've never had the chance to meet in person, it's probably just as well I've a thick hide when it comes to taking criticism ...

;O)

Let's just say that I'll agree to disagree with those of you who are falling over yourselves to offer sympathy. IMO there's no justification whatsoever for drawing a direct parallel between NUFC's circumstances in recent years and the recent reaction of Sunlun fans - hoying away shirts, ripping up season tickets etc - after just the one average season. I'm not sure what you hope to achieve by offering crumpets (nice one Buff sir!) with superkev's consoling cup of tea but that's clearly your prerogative.

Oh by the way SK, I'm bitterly disappointed that you didn't bite at my last comment about switching to support a more successful team - respect for having the nous to read it as the wind-up it was meant to be !

:O)

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Can I offer this view - hate the sin, but love the sinner. Makems are really Geordies who got a bit lost at the service station exit on the motorway to God's Country ;-) I would have said train station, but as they don't have a mainline one...

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

It didn't come across to me as SK being after sympathy. Seems to me, all he did was put a few thoughts into words.

If knowing exactly where he's coming from and saying so is sympathetic then I plead guilty, but I'd hope not to patronise him by offering any kind of condolances, which, in fact, I'd consider to be blatant hypocrisy as well as patronising. I'm sure he can appreciate me knowing what he's on about without concluding I'm a closet makem.

And apologies SK, if this comes across as patronising hypocrisy. Maybe we are better off sticking to the FTMakems/Mags mentality, it's a bliddy sight simpler. :-{E}

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Firstly-Buff,I do not know what you mean by the two names bit? I have always been the same person on rtg. Andy w-To be honest I would not expect anything different from you.It appears painfully obvious that your hatred for Sunderland runs to deep to allow sensible thought.That is your loss,your weakness. Finally to all, I will NEVER be a black and white. I mix with them,work with some,socialise with many but I will never join them. And although I am no angel,"tolerate" is not strong enough a word for the bile that Andy w and others(?) vent on RTG. I like to think that I contribute(sometimes!) on here.Give you lot a different perspective. Can some RTG visitors say the same?

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Like I said on Saturday - it's a funny old game. Who, what, when, where?

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Yes they can Supa , check out any Kennyboy message on RTG, I allways use my own name and email address , and I do receive any amount of bile from some of your nugget posters...

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Aye, that Mboma c**t that was on here recently was actively asking people on RTG to give me agro 'cos I used a real email address. To their credit I've not had an ounce of bother...perhaps because I revealed that twat's insults to our late friend's memory.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

LT – As I’m sure you understand, it was most certainly not my intention to offend you. Indeed, I was not specifically responding to your post. However, I must admit I am frustrated by my inability to influence opinion on these particular issues. Please accept my apology for any unintentional offence that was caused.

I genuinely do feel it is inappropriate for Toon fans to criticise mackems for expressing their displeasure over the direction their Club is heading, because I really believe we would do the same. However, I don’t believe it is appropriate for “fans” to be throwing missiles at their dug-out, or physically intimidating SAFC Management – and I would condemn Toon fans who did the same.

If you doubt the potential response of Toon fans in a parallel situation, let me tell you that as recently as Saturday in a top-of-the table clash at SJP, fans around me virulently and vociferously berated Gary Speed, Laurent Robert, Shola Ameobi and incredibly even Bobby Robson, at different times!

I have been berated on here for being “empathetic” towards SAFC and it’s fans. I feel very strongly on this issue, and will not relent even though I seem to be swimming against the tide. In my value set, the issue is very, very simple - hatred has NO place in football. I love football, I love the Toon: inter-fan hatred significantly diminishes the overall experience and I detest it. It saddens me enormously that sensible, intelligent people on this wonderful forum appear to be unable to accept this.

Curiously, I am rather more extreme in my views regarding SAFC, ie the Club, than many on here. I’m not one who wants all three NE Clubs playing in the PL – as I’ve already said, I would welcome their demise and won’t achieve true contentment until SAFC is playing in the Doc Marten’s League! The absolute domination of NUFC is my ideal.

However, I am able to recognise that SAFC’s fans are inherently no different to you and I. They are misguided enough to have chosen the wrong football club to support, and have a slightly funny accent. But they are flesh & blood, and they are as passionate about supporting their Club as we are – I expect nothing less. However, I don’t hate them, I respect their choice - but am bemused by their lack of discrimination.

I enjoy talking about footy, I enjoy discussing other teams with their fans; in my world footy banter is part and parcel of the experience. Chatting to two Arsenal fans about the game in the Strawberry on Saturday afternoon enhanced the experience for me; beating each other up would not have done.

I welcome Roly, ML#3, Herts and superkev’s contribution on here; they have a different perspective, they deserve to be heard. Imo it enhances the forum and prevents it from becoming parochial, introspective and incestuous.

When superkev sets out his frustrations so openly and passionately on here, I admire him enormously for doing so, can understand his frustrations – we’ve been there ourselves – and, I have a personal interest in discussing the associated issues with him.

I utterly abhor the adolescent tribalism that pervades football these days, and pervades boards like RTG. If that makes me a closet mackem – then so be it.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

I'm with Clarky on this: I can't think of a bad enough fate for SAFC but I've met too many decent individual Makems for me to have a blanket "I hate Makems" approach to their fans.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

schadenfreude? is that the right word?

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Fits well enough Swifty.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Once again the word HATRED is being used beyond it's context. Clarky says HATRED has no place in football. Fine I have absolutely no problem with that idea. Tell that to the people in Milan. The teams having to share the same stadium. Tell that to the old firm. While our "lercal derby" may not escalate to those levels, there are similarities.

The level of DISLIKE between us may not reach the HATRED level, but one thing is for certain, we wouldn't be having this discussion if the other didn't exist and how many people wouldn't wish that.

Clarky... you may not associate the club and its fans. Certainly we can all get together and share a pint, and talk footie, and more than likely argue over it. I say it's this simple. If you are so willing to be a fan of the game first, switch allegiances. Put yourself in the shoes of a mackem. Replace your "non-hatred" with support. See if you can do it.... I can't... I won't

You want to see them in the Doc Maartens league. I want to play them twice a season and beat them twice a season. I want to beat everyone twice a season. That's the difference. If they struggle, yes I'm glad, exstatic... overjoyed...hell I'll dance a bliddy jig. You know why...because they'd do the same damn thing, and I wouldn't have it any other way.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Believe me when I tell you sparxx, that "hatred" is absolutely not being used beyond its context. It is exactly the correct word.

I've sat in the middle of it, watched the pure unadulterated hatred on the contorted faces of so-called footy fans of both teams - fans who would tear each other limb from limb if the Police weren't preventing it.

When you've sat right in the middle of this ugly, tawdry atmosphere of tribal hatred, smelled it, felt it, as I have - then tell me it's simply a "dislike" for each other.

That is why I do everything I can to defuse this social aberration perpetrated under the guise of sport. Trust me marra.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Clarky, I've put this on another thread but I was just stalking (but not posting) on a Leeds chat site. Eavesdroppers can't complain about what they hear, but Leeds fans feel real hatred for us. The bile on there about everything from Kieron Dyer to Bobby Robson to Shola Ameobi is frightening. And really bleeding scary.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Clarky, the whole thing about tearing each other limb from limb is only a front. If the police weren't there and they were left to their own devices most of those type wouldn't do a damn thing. The police line is their safety barrier, you can do what you want as long as you feel safe that you won't suffer the consequences. I've been in the middle of it even in the front lines of it, of course there are a few that are more game than others, but the majority are just foul mouthed tarts that would shit a brick if the police stood aside and let them go at it.

Dougal leeds fans are just angry, they all apparently didn't get enough cuddles from their dads when they were young.

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Dougal, "Leeds Fans" , I feel we are generalising once more , a tiny minority of punks who utilise a PC to get there message across are no indication of a teams true fans. We moan about journo`s and the stories they print, at least they come under some kind of control. Put a punk on a keyboard from the relative sanctity of his own home and he is not going to write `nicey nice` posts about other teams. On this board the vast majority if not all can get their point across without resorting to collective cack. ,

-- Anonymous, March 05, 2002

Clarky - absolutely no need for apologies on your part, as I tried to say in my previous post. It's very rare that I disagree with what you say on here, but even when I do I hope - like the vast majority of bbsers - I'm able still to show respect for the poster.

At root here I think is the difficulty that I know I have when it comes to communicating stuff that comes from the heart (i.e. much of our banter about the lads or the mackems) - and in this I suspect I'm not always alone ?

Frankly, the internet isn't always the easiest method of communicating - compared for example to a chat in the pub. Except that is for a fortunate minority who are able to get their message across without fear of ambiguity or misunderstanding.

And let's not even get into the occasional posting - guilty as charged your Honour! - whose sole purpose is to get a few people wound up like spinning tops ... !

Perhaps what sets this bbs apart from others is that, almost always IMO, people do think before they type. But that doesn't mean to say it gets read in the same way by others, especially when it's an emotional topic and feelings invariably run high. All that I guess is a long winded way of appreciating what an amazing place this is !

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2002

All I can really add is that I'm afraid some of you are plain dreaming - dreaming of a gentler age.

Yes, the majority of fans are not mindless hoolies, but those who believe it is a 'tiny minority' that "hate" the opposition (Mag or mackem) fans and would wade in given the opportunity, are simply not in touch with the reality.

Clearly, I'm never going to convince you otherwise, or of the need for right-minded fans to do whatever they can to help put an end to this dangerous nonsense. I give in - for now.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2002

Buff, with respect, I do actually know some Leeds fans and, by and large, these Internet types are just articulating what I've heard in the flesh.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2002

I agree with almost everything you've said on the subject Clarky and I abhor the hatred (and it is hatred) which exists amongst some fans. All I'm at a game for is to support my team, not rubbish the other one or it's fans. I'm sure it's different in other sports - don't opposing rugby fans drink together before and after a game? The loyal fan knows the pain of defeat and knows that their team will not win things most of the time so you would think there would be more cameraderie than aggro amongst us, and magnanimity in victory should be the order of the day, not in-your-face baiting.

I must admit that because of the vitriol that passes between the fans I hate derby games and I would prefer Sunderland to be in the Nationwide - not that I've got anything against their fans - just that it would take two unpleasant games out of the schedule. However, this is unrealistic. They are a big club now and I'm sure they're here to stay despite some evidence to the contrary in recent weeks.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2002

Clarky et al. I have to agree with you. We should start a Friends in Football club - Might even get a lottery grant! :o))

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2002

Jonno - grand club, mon cul! Rugby fans do mix a lot more than football, just see the terraces at games to show you that. Same for cricket. Sometimes it does kick off, but nowhere near the thuggery football attracts.

-- Anonymous, March 06, 2002