I now own Nikon FM2 w/ 28-80mm lens. I want to switch to Leica brand from the testimony of great friends. I am not a professional, but photography is very important to me. I will mostly use the camera to document foreign travel, art photography around new york city, and family photos. Could someone advise what model of M6 I should get and a compatible lens? I feel overwhelmed by all the different models listed on the internet. All I know is I want fully manual, small, and lightweight. Maybe you could tell me what price to expect so I know the dealers aren't ripping me off. Thank you for any input you have. Sybil

-- sybil carpenter (spanishpie2003@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002

Answers

You'll probably get a ton of comments (a lot will probably be contradictory).

The best answer is always first hand experience. Since you're in NYC, I recommendation you go to Lens and Repro (33 W. 17th St). They have everything under the sun for rental, at very good rates. There are other places to rent, but Lens and Repro is the cheapest (and the equipment is already in user condition, so you don't have to worry so much about being ginger with it). Get an M6 or M6TTL and a 35 or 50 Summicron and try it out for a week or two. It will save you a lot of headaches.

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.

I should add: once you're ready to buy, NYC has a lot of options for Leica equipment (new and used): Ken Hansen Photographic, Photo Village, Wall Street Camera, Adorama, B&H, Tamarkin. I've dealt with all of these places and never had a problem. However wherever you go, avoid Cambridge Camera (aka AAA Camera) at all costs (overpriced and dishonest).

-- Richard (rvle@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.

Sybil, I was recently in your position, and use my equipment for pretty much the same purposes as you. I completely and utterly agree w/ the posts above to rent a M6 TTL for at least a week. I'm quite sure you'll like, but you better be sure before you take the plunge on such expensive equipment. Personally, I got a NIB black .72 viewfinder M6 TTL, with a summicron 35/2 asph to start. Will add a portrait lens once I've mastered the basics. Buena suerte y Vaya Con Dios!

-- Patrick (svenburg@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.

I was in a similar situation about this time last year. I learned a lot about M cameras and lenses from this site:

Cameraquest/mguide

Reading throught the old posts in this forum was also valuable. From all the searching I did through the internet, these two sites are far and away the best source of information, although there are a few others. Just make sure you are selective in applying all the contradictory advice to your particular situation. Take your time - it will be worthwhile in the long run. There is plenty of used gear out there, always available. You can be very choosy about what you end up buying.

I ended up buying used gear on ebay: M6 Classic, 35mm & 50mm pre-asph summicrons, current 90mm elmarit. I decided on this set-up after months of researching and have no second thoughts. I was able to borrow an M6 with a 3E for a few rolls. I second the suggestion to rent or borrow the gear if you can.

-- Hil (hegomez@agere.com), February 28, 2002.

Hi Sybil -

I second what Richard said about renting from Lens and Repro...They don't have EVERYTHING under the sun, but certainly a nice selection of Leica M and it would allow you to try some stuff before you spend a lot of money. I'm in Manhattan as well. There are lots of places in this city NOT to buy Leica, and as a first- timer, I'd avoid the big houses like Adorama and B&H. They're better if you know what you're looking for and know what it should look like (act like?).

To buy, Lens and Repro is a little pricey on Leica and I was just there yesterday and they don't have a whole lot right now. Ken Hansen is a better place to go. 509 Madison (btwn 52-53rd on the 18th floor). Tamarkin will sell you the Brooklyn Bridge if you let them...(today we have a buy one bridge and get part of the second bridge for free! and we'll throw in a filter that sucks!) and by all means NEVER go into Cambridge unless you are ready to take some abuse.

That being said, shopping for Leica can be fun in the city and good deals can be had if you're patient and can piece some things together rather than buy it all at once. I think for a nice used M6 and a 35 or 50mm Summicron lens you could spend $1900, maybe less... Happy to help...

-- Carlin (carlinm@abac.com), February 28, 2002.

I recently bought a new M6 TTL with the 35 mm summilux, and have a 75mm lux on the way. For 4400 bucks from B&H (body and 35mm), I'm happy with the setup. For most of my photos, I think I could get away with the body and lens, and I really appreciate the on-board meter. The M6 classic is another body you might look at as well if you don't plan on to many flash shots. Have fun and post back what you end up with!

-- James (snodoggydogg@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.

Which Leica M and lenses to select is really a matter of budget, the nature of what you prefer to photograph, how you go about it, and whether you wear glasses. If you buy new from an authorized dealer, you get what is called a 3-year Passport Warranty, which is essentially no-fault insurance against repair or damage (return the part with your serial number, and Leica replaces it free). Most of the "deals" you see will be where the camera is acquired by the dealer through gray-market chanels and replaces the Passport warranty with their own service policy.

A new M6 TTL with Passport runs about $1995 for the body, lenses being extra. Good places to check prices online include B&H Photo, Delta International, Don Chatterton, KB Camera - Leica Gallery, KEH Camera Brokers, Tamarkin, and Wall Street Camera.

There are frequent and numerous discussions in the archives here about lens choices. Scroll down to the bottom of the main message index and you'll see the threads in the archives. My sense is that the consensus would be that a 35mm lens would be the "normal" first lens for your M. Which 35mm lens again depends on budget. You might also want to look at the Tri-Elmar (28/35/50) as your "standard" lens.

Your eventual array of M lenses, along with whether you wear glasses, will also drive your decision on the body. Three viewfinder models are available - 0.58x, 0.72x and 0.85x (being the magnification factor of the viewfinder. Essentially, less magnification is better for wide-angle lenses and glasses, and the higher magnification is better for longer lenses and/or no glasses.

The M6 TTL model provides support for TTL flash automation, a feature absent on the M6 Classic and earlier Ms. The flash, however, must be compatible with the Leica M. Choices include the Leica SF20 and sever Metz models with appropriate Leica adapters. More info on the flash units is also available in the archives. Remember, however, that the M syncs flash at 1/50 or below, a fact that limits the convenience of fill flash in some circumstances.

A couple of additional resources you might find handy are The M Lens User's Guide, and The Leica Papers Index.

-- Ralph Barker (rbarker@pacbell.net), February 28, 2002.

In New York these cameras have almost the same price at the different retail stores. If you're not in a hurry, wait for the "Leica Day" where you will get 10% off the price of any Leica equipment. Sometimes they also have a rebate coupon period. Check around.

The M6TTL 0.72 is approximately $2,000 new. The 35mm f2.0 Asph is $1,500. On Leica Day you can save $350. Not bad for waiting a few months. I think the next one is in June or July.

These cameras and lenses will last more than a lifetime, so don't get sticker shock. If you divide the price by the number of years you expect the camera to be with you, it is cheap. The quality is superb. The all metal body is from one piece of metal. There is no other camera made that strong today, not that I use mine to hammer nails.

The Leica camera shutter is expected to last 400,000 exposures, while the modern SLR titanium shutters are much less than that. That's more than 10,000 rolls of film. Not bad for a rubberized cloth shutter. It is so quiet you will be shocked that you ever used an SLR.

Check the prices at www.bhphoto.com or www.tamarkin.com or www.phototoys.com

Does anyone buy "Grey" market Leicas? Their prices are $200 to $300 cheaper.

I don't like to buy used cameras because you never know what's "under the hood" unless you know what to look for. Watch out for ripoff artists. The used prices are high, and if you add to that the potential of a CLA (clean, lube, adjustment), you might be better off with a new camera with an all inclusive 3-year warranty. The Leica warranty is so good, they will replace the camera or lenses under almost any circumstances, no questions asked (unless you use it as a weapon). There's nothing like it out there today.

If you are into wider angle photography, consider the 28mm f2.0 as your standard lens. Just a thought.

I ended up buying the M6TTL 0.72, the 35mm f2.0 Asph and the 50mm f2.0 and like them because of their small size. I got two lenses because I took advantage of the price breaks. If there were no breaks I would have just got the 35mm f2.0 Asph. You will be amazed at the size of the rig. The 39mm diameter is tiny and the pictures are razor sharp. (I bought my stuff in New York City and had it mailed to me, saved on taxes. If possible have it mailed to a friend or family out of state.)

Do you wear glasses? I do, but I still bought the 0.72 magnification. There are some recent threads on the type of magnification most suited to your needs. If you are planning to get only one camera, get the 0.72.

Review the following sites: The Erwin Puts site The www.cameraquest.com site (Steven Gandy) The Nemeng site

Keep asking questions here, there are some very knowledgeable people who are willing to share their insights. I gained a lot of knowledge and saved a lot of money by reading this site.

Happy hunting.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 28, 2002.

I've been informed by Gerry Smith that the best user M to get is either a M3 (just before the 1 million number) or a late M6 (just prior to the TTL circuit). The reason being that you'll most likely NOT use the TTL circuit on your new M as much as the novelty endears itself to you before ownership. Also, one of the boards on the earlier TTLs has been giving owners problems (like me) with meter-on durations thus sucking the battery more than the later ones. Lets also not forget that the TTL requires batteries to operate manual flash.... something sorely missed from the original M6.

I drive a late model Corolla (last year before the model changeover) and I don't think I'd fork over the deneros for a NEW Corrola. There's something to be said about purchasing the "last" of a series in terms of the manufacturer working all the teething problems out.

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.

I suggest any M6 or M6TTL and a 35mm or 50mm lens, depending on your preference. 35mm is good for an M, but if you want to get closer then the 50mm is great and the cheapest lens to get. TTL flash is nice, but I do not think that you really need to worry about this and obsess that you have to get an M6 TTL which is more money. Many people (including me) think that flash and M photography do not really belong together and regular auto flash is fine for most circumstances. So I suggest the standard M6 or the 0.72 M6TTL. I could suggest earlier models, but a built in meter is the norm these days for most people, so why make it more difficult for yourself at this stage? If you become a Leicaphile then you can worry about earlier models.

I always try and buy secondhand and like Tamarkin and Ken Hanson in the city. Many stores have Leicas secondhand, but their prices are often too high compared to ebay or even a place like KEH or Don Chatterton. The web makes it easy to compare prices. Adorama and B & H fall into this too expensive camp I think. I also recommend Delta International for gray imports.

If you are buying new then Leica days are a great idea. I like Fotocare if I am buying new (if I ever do).

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.

if you like the fm2 forget anything without a lightmeter. nothing stops you from still using a handheld meter, but especially when you travel the time to take pictures is sometimes not enough. i'd still go for a m6ttl. the shutter wheel is much nicer to use, and the viefinder display is improved with a third centre LED.

-- stefan randlkofer (geesbert@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.

my advice is to pick up a leica/minolta CLE and a leica 35mm summicron asph. the cle is a delight to use: more compact than an M6, great build quality, complete compatibility with m lenses (unlike the cl), and with a great aperture priority auto setting. it is really everything the M7 has to offer (absent ttlflash and AE lock) in a smaller, cheaper package. it is the most portable and effotless camera i have ever used. if you like the automation, coupled with the classic RF focus, brite line framing, and horizontal travel cloth shutter, but still long for a leica, you can always get all your money back for the CLE and move up to an M7 when it becomes available this spring. but the small size of the CLE will become addictive. in my view it is the perfect street/travel camera.

-- roger michel (michel@tcn.org), February 28, 2002.

If your in the market now, I would wait to see about an M7. If not I would definitely get the M6 used. (about1300 for a user).

-- Bob Haight (rhaigh5748@aol.com), February 28, 2002.

Sybil,

Everyone has given you good advice, especially about renting first and trying out Leica--it's quite a jump from an FM2. As to choice of lens: you know what you like in terms of "lens space". If you're limited to one lens, then you'll be giving up a lot of range that you now have with the 28-80 zoom, so you've got to decide where your visual acuity lies. Finally, if you don't do a lot of flash photography (or none at all, like a lot of the "purists" on this site), then forget the M6TTL and streamline your choice by buying a late M6 Classic.

Suerte, <>.

-- Cosmo Genovese (cosmo@rome.com), February 28, 2002.

Dear Sybil,

Second the motion for M6 classic or M6 TTL. Don't bother with the antiques for your first Leica. Both M6s eat batteries, truth be told. The TTL is like a hungry baby even if you do turn the meter off when storing. But you can live with it, trust me. Lens? How about a 50/2 to start with? Used late model Summicrons with focusing tabs and removable lens shades are reasonably priced and excellent. If you have any money leftover and you want a cheap and very good 35mm lens, consider the Voigtlander 35/2.5 Classic. This is the lens Leica should have made.

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), February 28, 2002.

Alex,

What precisely do you mean by “The TTL is like a hungry baby” regarding batteries? Leica specifies 2900 frames per battery set. I use lithium batteries and I’m doing better than that, about 100 rolls/battery. I’m not really sure because I’ve never let the battery fail.

How many rolls does your “hungry baby” shoot before it needs to be fed? If it is below specs maybe your camera needs service?

In an age when many cameras drain a set of 4 AA’s in 40 minutes of normal use, and critical assignments require separate battery packs strapped to the photographer’s belt, it is misleading to suggest the M6TTL is a battery hog. Don’t be dissuaded Sybil, or anyone else. Batteries are a non-issue with the M6TTL.

Cheerios,

-- Jeff Stuart (jstuart1@tampabay.rr.com), February 28, 2002.

Jeff is correct: the M6 (and M6TTL), if functioning properly, is definitely not a battery hog. Much longer battery life than any auto SLR. And don't get me started on the ephemeral battery life of digital cameras! IMHO this is digital's major weakness.

-- Luke Dunlap (luked@mail.utexas.edu), February 28, 2002.

Sybil:

Get a good-condition used M6 pre-TTL (it's very, very slightly smaller/ lighter than the TTL and should cost about $1250-$1350.

Get the .72x mag. finder (it's about all that's available in the plain M6 anyway unless you 'invest' in a collectors item). It's the classic framing going all the way back to the M2 from 1960.

Get either/both a 35 or 50 Summicron - frankly, almost any version from 1960 to brand-new 2002 will work pretty darn well. Prices will range from $1350 for a new 35 to $450-$550 for a good used 50.

I favor the 35mm - others may favor the 50mm - it really depends on what YOU favor. If you've preferred the short end of the 28-80, you'll probably find the 35 gives your pictures the context you're used to - and the 35 f/2 is REALLY compact - no joke. If you've favored the middle/long end of the zoom, the 50 may be more comfortable.

One other alternative, if you can stand using a separate meter. An M4- P, often available used for $850 or so, is just an M6 without a meter and few grams lighter yet. But an M6 is going to be younger and less likely to show aging problems.

-- Andy Piper (apidens@denver.infi.net), February 28, 2002.

Sybil,

I can add little to what's been said already. Lots of great advice! I would just like to add my 2 cents on lenses. I would vote for the 28- 35-50mm f/4 Tri-Elmar (3E) as a starter lens. This is a great daytime walk-about lens and, considering it embodies three separate focal lengths, it's very light at 340 grams and is not all that large. Its optical quality is outstanding. Just be aware, if you wear glasses, that it's almost impossible to see the 28mm frameline in a .72 body; it's not too easy even without glasses! I use my 3E with a .58 M6TTL and they seem to be made for each other.

For times when 50mm isn't long enough, such as taking close-cropped portraits, I find the 90/2.8 Elmarit-M fits the bill perfectly. It's a relative bargain in the Leica line-up and it's quite compact. Only thing is, the .58 body doesn't offer a big enough 90mm frameline for easy composition, so you might want to add a 1.25x magnifier or get a .72 or .85 body.

If you want to do some available light photography, the 3E won't be fast enough. I managed to find a very reasonably priced used 50/1.4 Summilux-M, which I use for this purpose. That's my personal choice of focal length for indoor use because it suits the way I shoot but you may prefer a fast 35mm, depending on your needs.

Finally, whether you choose a silver-chrome or black body, I would buy black lenses. There's no choice, anyway, with the current version of the 3E but, with other lenses, the chrome ones are quite a bit heavier and sometimes more expensive. Black lenses go well with either black or chrome bodies IMHO.

Good luck, Ray

-- Ray Moth (ray_moth@yahoo.com), March 01, 2002.

Sybil--

If you've managed to wade this far through the answers, then I congratulate you for your thoroughness. ;) Seriously, though, a lot of folks have been suggesting to buy the pre-TTL M6 over the M6 with TTL, but if you're on a budget (like most of us), I'll disagree for one reason: price.

Pre-TTL M6s run more money. The collectors seem to like 'em, and that always drives prices up. (Darn collectors. ) I use an M6TTL, and even though I don't use flash, I still have the TTL feature should I need it. That, and I saved a couple hundred bucks, so I could plow money into what's *really* important-- lenses. Yeah, there are guys out there that go into all of the tech-y stuff, but frankly, Leicas are Leicas. They work better than anything else I've ever shot with. Yeah, the pre-TTL M6 may be 0.00015% more reliable, and the M6TTL is a *whole* 2mm (!) taller, but in the end, it's just a *very* nice box that holds lenses and film. Frankly, I'd get the cheapest M camera that I liked, and take pictures.

As long as it's an M, it's going to be quiet and reliable, and for a photographer, that's all that matters.

(No, I'm not "dissing" Erwin and others' work... but I've never found that milling machine fault tolerance fabrication details ever helped me take better pictures. If the camera breaks, it breaks. Generally, no matter how they're made, Leica Ms just don't break as often as other brands, and that's really all that matters to me. Now, lens tech is different--that IS important... )

Another good deal that I found in NYC-- The Photo Village sells Leica Demo units with 1-year Leica USA warranties. That's how I picked up my M6TTL for $1395 with a 50mm/f2 (also a demo) for about $500. Demo cameras may have some wear marks, but if you're worried about wear marks, then you would be looking at the gold or titanium cameras, anyway. Seriously, though, demos get you in for less than new prices. (The demos are checked out by Leica before being resold.)

I also picked up an older 90/2.8 for about $450 at the same time I got my M6TTL. I've since added a 35/2 ASPH and a 21/2.8 ASPH. (Citibank loves me.) If you're going to buy the expensive lenses, definitely wait for Leica Day or for rebates. I got a $1500 35/2 for $1150 after the 10% discount and a $200 rebate. (Otherwise, I wouldn't've been able to afford the debt.)

Well worth the wait. Or just buy used. The pre-ASPH 35/2 is an excellent lens-- small and cheaper than the ASPH, and only someone with expensive test equipment would notice the difference in your holiday snaps.

I moved from Canon EOS to Leica. Now I shoot 21, 35, 50 and 90. That's all I find that I need. (But buying all of those focal lengths new can wipe out the savings account quickly.) I still shoot news-y stuff with the EOS, but the M is wonderful for just about everything else.

No matter what you do, you probably won't regret it... at least until the credit card bill arrives. ;)

And even though I kid the tech guys, they do keep an eye on quality. As long as they're only quibbling over details, then I don't worry about build quality... if they stop quibbling... well, *then* I'll worry. ;)

Hope this helps, Rich Fowler.

-- Rich Fowler (richfowler@mindspring.com), March 01, 2002.

Hi Sybil! I can only suggest you to buy what most others have already said above. I'm not sorry, I'm happy! Because I did it this way too and would do exactly the same again if I had to. Maybe you're collecting statistics here as well. M6TTL 0.72, 2/35ASPH and/or 2/50. Those are the first things. Then depending on your needs (and money) a 21 or 24, and finally a 2.8/90. Again, try everything out first before paying for them. Lots of luck!

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 01, 2002.

Sybil and Friends,

As I said, the battery issue, or non-issue, is something Sybil can live with. Sybil get the M6, already. Just be sure to carry extra batteries. I do. And if they give out when you don't have batteries on you don't worry. ALL speeds work as the camera is mechanical.

M6-TLL, in my experience needs new batteries every 21/2 months. The Classic: I bought it in Dec.; batteries pooped out in late Feb. but that doesn't count yet--might have been worn batteries. The newer M6 Classic has an interesting warning. When the batteries are going to die, the finder sticks to over exposure.

I live in Japan and maybe our batteries here are inferior to yours in the US.

Anyway, to repeat, batteries for the M6s are cheap. And they are easy to find.

Cheers,

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), March 01, 2002.

Sybil, if you dont mind using a hand-held meter. Buy a good user M4 or M2 converted with a rapid load system. You may find the M3 too cumbersome to load. The M4 is probably the most usable of all the fully mechanical M's. No batteries to let you down. And if you get say a Weston lightmeter to boot, you are fully sans-battery kitted up!

But if you want versatility of a built in meter than you cant go wrong with a M6ttl. Its meter is more accurate than an M6 and the ergonomic shutter dial is very responsive.

As for lenses, try out the older lenses. Especially a good condition 50mm Dual range lens without the eyes (and with for close up) which is optically perfect. Try shooting some film and compare it a newer lens if you need to convince yourself. Buying second hand really is a good option as its cheaper and the second hand dealers usually give you 2 weeks money back guarantee. You get to test out the goods and if you dont like it give it back!

Don't underestimate the older leica equipment. They made them good back then. And they are built solid, quality craftsmanship, all manual and simple.

All the best.

-- sparkie (sparkie@mailcity.com), March 01, 2002.

Sybil, I now see the above news on batteries. (a) As re M6TTL (which I have), absolutely no problems here. (b) M6 classic (which I don't have) likely ditto. (c) Check out all previous postings in this forum on batteries. (c) As in general in life -- our umbrella example -- just keep a battery replacement in your bag, and you'll probably never need it.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), March 01, 2002.

Sybil,

Like you, I used a Nikon FM for years as my primary camera, and switched to a Leica M6 several years ago largely due to the testimony of great friends. I love my Leica and use it all the time.

But I am going to be the contrarian here.

Have you considered just sticking to your Nikon and perhaps getting a new lens or two for it?

Some pros:

The Nikon FM2 is lighter than the Leica M6.

It is easier to hold if you have small hands, because the distance to the top plate from the bottom is less.

It is a very durable and dependable camera-just like the Leica.

It has a zoom lens that you are now quite used to. There is no lens with a similar range that you can get for the Leica. If you find the zoom lens is limiting you in low light situations, you can get an inexpensive lens like the highly regarded 50/1.8. On the other hand, you can get bulkier or wider-range zooms. Or you can get the very bright 35-70/2.8 or the very much bulkier 28-70/2.8.

Lenses are less expensive for it. You can get some prime lenses (a 24, a 50, a 105/2.5 or 85/1.8 portrait lens) and get a feel for whether fixed focal length photography is your style. Certainly the images will be higher quality than what you now have, but convenience might be a bigger factor. Remember, that 28-80, though slow and not very sharp, is a lightweight lens, that may be sharp and fast enough for your purposes.

Some cons:

The Nikon always blacks out when you press the shutter. The Leica does not, so you can do a better job at capturing expressions.

The Nikon is definitely noisier.

People sometimes are put off by zoom lenses, even teeny ones.

But if your mind is made up, look to buy a Leica M6TTL (new) body for around $2000. Look to getting either a 35/2 with a 50/2 as your second lens. Think about getting black lenses rather than chrome ones- they are much lighter. Black bodies are the same weight as the classic looking and unthreatening chrome bodies though.

Oh, and do what I did. Ask your great friends to lend you the camera for a week or two if they can.

It is fully manual-just like the Leica.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 02, 2002.

Sorry, please disregard that last sentence. It is out of sequence.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), March 02, 2002.