Fall in pricesgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Leica Photography : One Thread |
I know this isn't a leica comment,however I feel it my be of interest.I was at my local camera shop yesterday and the manager showed me the latest second-hand price list(compared to 2 months ago).All prices are for gear in exellent condition.
Nikon F5,F100,F4,F3. all reduced by 20% (the F5 was £925,compared to £1200 2 months ago).The guy said this is due to the release of the D1x and the launch of the D100 this summer(6.1 MP SLR for as little as £1600)
He also said that the price of both new and second-hand Leica M6,M6ttl,etc will fall quite a bit.In his view nobody will buy a new ttl now that the M7 is out.
The trend in the UK,according to most camera shops,is that 99.9% of pro's are using digital and the release of the Nikon D100 this summer will see the off sales of the 'semi-pro' SLR's such as the F100,Dynax9i,etc,etc.
Personally I think this is a good thing-more cheap Leica gear for me!
-- Phil Andrews (philandrew@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002
Sooo, I just talked to my guys here in the shops, and they told me what I was expecting to here anyways (it is all just a quote of what they know and/or think)...Their prices of M6s and M6TTLs are not going to fall. At least not in the near future. When they start selling the M7, the M6TTL will still be sold in parallel. The M6TTL is still going to be produced in parallel. Maybe the M6TTL will even go up in price because it is more mechanical than the M7, and -- as we all know -- a vast majority of us love Ms for the simple reason that they are (were) mechanical anyways.
-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 28, 2002.
If digital has this kind of effect on real world prices of traditional gear then the big four will eventually either stop making pro film cameras, or stop updating current equipment. I don't think this is good news.
-- ray tai (razerx@netvigator.com), February 28, 2002.
I hope the prices of film cameras don't fall. I do hope the prices of the D1X fall dramatically in the next 18 months or so as they become obsolete. That's neither logical nor sound economics, I know.
-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), February 28, 2002.
IMHO, u can never lose monetarily when u own mechanical Ms., except maybe the M6 TTL.btw, can the M7 be used without batteries?;)
-- Travis koh (teckyy@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.
I find that 99.9% real hard to believe. The newspapers and wire services surely are buying them but, at least in regards to editorial photography, I'm not seeing any publications willing to pay the surcharges to finance $11,000 every two or three years (for two bodies that go obscolete real fast). So for they think it's pure savings of film costs for them. I know I would not be able to stay solvent if I bent over to pay for their conveniences.I've been to Visa in Perpignan the last two years in a row and have seen a total of 1 (one!) professinal digital camera there. Loads of M6's, an R every now and then and of course the pedestrian Nikons and Canons.
Yeah it's here to stay. But it is still a long way from film, and there will always be a place for quality.
-- dave yoder (lists@daveyoder.com), February 28, 2002.
I was going to make a similar post, and let everybody know that (high- end) Nikon AND Canon gear is now getting copiously "dumped" on photo.net. Glad I got rid of mine last week!:-),
-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), February 28, 2002.
99.9 percent of pros using digital. Not on your life. Even in New York (stats say the most 'digital pro market') the percentage is far below this (not counting photojournalism of course). Don't be confused with what pros purchase as opposed to what they use. Though many pro have purchased digital cameras, they still know when to use digital and when to use film (just as they have always known when to use 35mm and when to use 4X5)...........
-- Bob Todrick (bobtodrick@yahoo.com), February 28, 2002.
I have to agree Bob. Unfourtunately many people associate "pro" with your typical fleet street hack in a media scrum - agreed most of the newspaper guys need digital for the speed and where final quality is of lesser importance due to the poor reproduction of newsprint.However, most pros are not newspaper hacks, they work in the commercial, portrait, magazine, social, travel, scientific fields etc - where this figure of 99.99 % came from I don't know - it is hard to believe.
Regarding the TTL, it was virtually confirmed in another thread that Leica have stopped production, this being the case existing new stocks will probably be swallowed up reasonably quickly - as many have dissected the finer points of any small advantage the M7 may possess over the M6 and perhaps concluded that the all mechanical M6 may still be a better buy.
I feel there may be a slight temporary blip in M6 used prices but looked at as a whole the M line will continue to hold it's value better than probably any other camera produced.
-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 28, 2002.
Oh here we go-Ladies and gentlemen please welcome live on stage the BOB and GILES double act!!!!!'thank you,thank you.First tonight folks we would like to start,as normal,by condescending and contradicting the lead post......you all know so much less than us.....BUMBUM!!!!!'
-- Phil Andrews (philandrew@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.
Phil, at the risk of boring everyone else with petty arguments, I simply ask why you feel the need to lead immature personal attacks on others whose comments you disagree with.There seem to have been a large number of abusive posts by various 'hotmail' users lately who are perhaps seeking to destroy the good nature of this forum.
Perhaps instead of accusing others of - "spending their whole life on this forum posting glib and sarcastic comments", you should reflect on some of your own postings.
-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 28, 2002.
There is a tendency on the internet for people to create their own fantasy scenarios where their own choice of equipment is always the best and always in demand and will never be discontinued, etc. But unless the camera dealers have suddenly all caught some kind of virus that's infused them with an euphoric sense of generosity, the prices of film cameras *are* falling. And every commercial photographer I have talked to has abandoned 35mm for digital, even if they still shoot medium-format film when poster-sized enlargement is required.That said, the Leica M market is unlike most others in that the afficionados are contrarian to technology trends, and there is the collector market. M6 Classic prices relative to used M6TTL's have remained relatively stabile. Although the M7 is a more radical departure from the M6 Classic than the TTL was, for some it may be too radical and just might push the M6/M6TTL prices higher. OTOH my gut feeling is that sales of the M7 will come mainly from current M owners (I have doubts as to how many non-Leica owners will fork over more than two grand for a film-based camera today)and so at least initially there may be a domino-effect drop in prices on M6's.
-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), February 28, 2002.
I have been coming here for about 2/3 weeks and have only posted under my real name and e-mail address,get the IP checked out.Could you reflect on some of my postings please Giles,I can't be arsed and you are so much more articulate than me.
-- Phil Andrews (philandrew@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.
I was seated at Yankee Stadium 18 months ago four rows behind the photo pits which are along side each dugout. All of the photographers passed me on the way to the pits. There were about eight photographers on each side and switched sides in the middle of the game. Each and every photographer had a Canon Digital Camera with a white long zoom lens mounted on a monopod. I did not see a single manual camera of any kind. Interestingly most of the cameras had Nikon neck straps.
-- Gerry Widen (gwiden@alliancepartners.org), February 28, 2002.
Whether we are shooting digi or film is still largely based on final usage, speed of need, and clients comfort with digital. I shoot a lot on film that could be done better (see it as you shoot it), faster (email vs. Fed-X), and cheaper (well, in film anyway--not the camera itself), on digi. But clients still like it. I had two shoots last week, one made it an option to shoot digi or film, and the editor in New York was looking at the photos an hour after I took my lights down. Other was film, and they had all the usual film charges, shipping, and delays. But lots still don't trust digi, even though it is more than there for most publication usage.Another thought, if the M8 was 6-10 MP digi, I'd jump, wouldn't you? If they could maintain the "feel" and SIZE of the M6, I'd wait in line for it. One thing I hate about the D-1 is it is huge and bulky and so are the lenses. And I love Ms and Tri-X or 3200. But it would be hard to ignore a Leica M that shot exactly like the film cameras.
I have another question, though, for commercial or PJs out there. Is anyone charging a surcharge to shoot digi, since the client is saving a ton on film and processing, and the up front cost and generational replacement costs of the camera is so high? I am thinking of doing this, but haven't figured a way to structure it. Maybe just a flast $100 fee for digital, and maybe another fee for the "delivery?" Any thoughts?
Thanks,
-- Charles (c.mason@uaf.edu), February 28, 2002.
I hate to say it, but digital will take over, especially in any type of photography that involves travel. According to National Geographic Traveler Magazine, by 2003 ALL bags must go through the new bomb detection scanners that can ruin undeveloped film.The alternative is to buy and process film at your destination. I know I don't want to spend my travel time searching for film and processing.
I don't doubt that most working pros are switching to digital...they have to.
So, Phil, I more or less agree with what your camera shop manager told you. There will be a glut of film-bodies available. I know I'll be selling all of my automated (AF) film-bodies (but keeping my FM3a) and will be buying a D100. I'm not happy about it, but I want to travel and take photos. What's my alternative?
-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), February 28, 2002.
Phil, I emailed off-line but your account is invalid - message returned.
-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 28, 2002.
Well done Giles,I just mailed you from my address (philandrew@hotmail.com).Did you get it? I think you did,it hasn't come back.Giles you have made a fool of yourself.Smart-arse.
-- Phil Andrew (philandrew@hotmail.com), February 28, 2002.