Another thing on the chemtrails that don't existgreenspun.com : LUSENET : Freedom! self reliance : One Thread
This has some tremendously interesting claims. Perhaps someone of a more scientific bent wants to attack it for me?
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 17, 2002
Doreen, I have a life to live so I did not devote enough time to study every detail of your link. However, it appears to be based on the claim that 'chemtrails' are intended to artificially induce 'ducting' in the startosphere.
Ducting is not a new concept to me, in fact it has long been known to radio technical folks and has been intently studied by the amateur radio fraternity.
The most active group of radio amateurs in the world are members of the Americal Radio Relay League (ARRL) and I am quite sure that if the radio propogation environmnet over continental USA has been 'adjusted' in any significant way the 'hams' would know about it.
Have a look at http://www.iprimus.ca/~hepburnw/dx/tr-modes.htm where some aspects of ducting are described. Sorry there is a bit of technical jargon on that page, for example 'DX' referrs to long distance communications.
P.S. I am sure there are lots of 'hams' who accept the chemtrail theory but IMHO that just proves they are no more critical in their information processing than others of the same belief. I do not automatically accept the conclusions of just anyone who writes pages of stuff I don't understand.
-- john hill (email@example.com), February 17, 2002.
I have an Amateur radio license. General Class. Both of my parents hold Amatuer radio licenses. I'm a member of the ARRL. (Thanks for the kind words, John) There has been no increase (sunspot activity, notwithstanding)in radio-wave propogation in the 100+ Mhz (or any other frequency range) that either myself or either of my parents have heard about or witnessed. When favourable conditions do occasionally happen (as has been happening with the active part of the solar cycle we're in) it makes news so fast in the amateur community as to make your head spin. Even if those conditions last for only 15-30 min. One article on the ARRL's website, and in their magazine, deals exclusively with propogation forecasts based on the predicted condition of the atmosphere, predicted sunspot activity, and even the time fo the day. Oh, yes; if the military were running covert HF 'ducting' experiments, the amateur radio community would know about it. At the very least, there would routinely be favorable, or even un-favourable conditions, that couldn't be explained. For that matter, anybody with a scanner would know about it - the frequency ranges mentioned include police, fire, rescue, taxi service, fast food, aircraft, pagers, mobile phone, cordless phones, GPS systems and a whole host of others as well.
I will say I'm not as certain as John that chemtrails do not exist. So far, I'm not convinced either way. I'm trying to keep an open mind while still conducting my own research into this area. That website was not a help.
-- StevenB (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 17, 2002.
I am not convinced they don't exist either, I just have not yet seen any evidence of them.
-- john hill (email@example.com), February 17, 2002.
Do you live underneath the sky? Do you ocassionally look up? If you have not seen any evidence of chemtrails, perhaps you should consult an optometrist.
-- Rags (RaggedReb@aol.com), February 18, 2002.
Umm, Rags: I'm the 'astronomy guy', remember? I probably look up more than most. I have never, ever personally seen one. CONtrails, yes. CHEMtrails, no. No unnatural atmospheric spreading, no residue, no ducting, no storms out of nowhere, nothing. It doesn't mean they don't exist, it means they don't currently exist in my neck of the woods. Just because you claim to have seen one, doesn't make it concrete evidence to me. Plenty of people claim to have seen 'Bigfoot'. (They probably all go to the 'Zeta' site, frequently) That doesn't mean 'Bigfoot', exists either.
Doreen provided personal pictures, anecdotal evidence, meaningful dialogue and was helpful, even in spite of her apparent frustration on the topic. I believe she started this thread in an attempt to help find out answers to things she believes she has witnessed and been a part of. Quite constructive and helpful, I would say. Increadibly trite, knee-jerk reactions however, are NOT constructive OR helpful.
-- StevenB (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 18, 2002.
Rags, I think I can claim to have looked at the sky a few times. Once upon a time I was even paid to do it as part of an aviation meteorological programme, both temperate and tropical climates, every hour, every working day for about 15 years.
I really don't know if chemtrails exist but if they do I certainly have not seen evidence of them.
-- john hill (email@example.com), February 18, 2002.
Steven and John, I did not mean to be flippant, I meant the remark seriously. Where I live, you can see a sky full of chemtrails two, three, four days a week. It is actually rare to see a clear blue sky WITHOUT chemtrails.
I used to be a maintenance man and tractor driver at a municipal airport and I know a little about planes. One thing for sure--they don't fly in opposite directions at the same altitude. But the chemtrail tankers fly back and forth across the sky all day at the same altitude. Also contrails are ice; they melt. Chemtrails hang in the sky for hours, diffuse into the winds, and spread across the sky with prevailing winds.
But the main thing about them is they are up there daily. Flagrantly. Plain as the nose on your face. I had heard about them on the radio but before I saw any I didn't know what to think. Then one morning I woke up, stepped outside and there the sky was divided into lines like a football gridiron. I ran got my wife and showed her. I grabbed my camera and took pictures. I called my Congressman: his staff said "Never heard of them. . . don't know what your talking about. . . we'll look into it. . . etc" I called the local airport and the local TV station: they said the same thing as the Congressman's office. The next day the trails were back. I went to the local WalMart and stood in the parking lot pointing up at the trails in the sky to people and they acted like they were nothing special. It was the weirdest experience of my life. Now here come you big people saying, "Never seen any". How could you not? These things cover the sky from horizon to horizon day after day. How on earth could you not see them?
Anyway. I was serious in the last post. The chemtrails I have seen world require blindness not to see.
-- Rags (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 18, 2002.
OK Rags, I live thousands of miles from the USA so of course I look at a 'different' sky, in fact it is unusual for me to see more than about 3 condensation trails in a day as there is not really much civilian air traffic and no military activity.
Everything I have seen so far I can fit into my experience and knowledge of the atmosphere. I accept that does not prove anything but on the whole I am sure there are a whole bunch of more scary things to worry about.
-- john hill (email@example.com), February 19, 2002.
I live in Northeastern Ohio, right underneath the busiest air corridor in the U.S. These flights are handled by the Oberlin air control facility, the busiest in the world. If there aren't at least one dozen contrails overhead at any time of the day, there must be an airline strike. I can count anywhere from 1 to 2 dozen planes in the air simultaneously during the day and almost that many at night in the form of UPS and FedEx air freighters.
That said, you can tell alot about the atmosphere and aircraft by what they leave behind. The newer jumbo jets burn clean. That is, the leave a clean wake behind them. Corporate jets and military jets tend to burn a little dirtier. You can also tell exactly where the moist air "bubbles" are in the atmosphere on a sunny day. A new jumbo jet enters my line of sight with no wake at all. Suddenly, it starts streaming a long vapor trail as it enters a rising bubble of warm, moist air. Then it exits and the streaming contrail stops again. Meanwhile other jets from different directions and altitudes hit the same air bubble. Again, contrails start to stream behind the jets and stop when the jets leave the air mass. After a while, the air bubble is clearly marked by criss-crossing vapor trails.
Now, using a pair of 8x50 field binoculars, I can identify the airline markings and airplane type of each passing jet. I SERIOUSLY doubt, Rags, that each jet from any one of two dozen different airlines is dumping chemicals right over my house on signal from some secret radio transmission or satellite transponder. Besides, the prevailing winds are generally from the Southwest. That means, all those chemicals are drifting over Lake Erie and killing Canadians. Doesn't seem to be happening.
The air at normal cruising altitudes is anywhere from -20 to -40 degrees. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that if you run a hot engine through cold air, your going to leave a moisture trail. Gee, my '95 Dodge Dakota does that when I leave for work. When I exhale on a cold winter day, I also leave a contrail. If we get one of those super cold fog days where the air is saturated below freezing, my breath can linger in the air for several minutes. I really don't see any great mystery here.
-- Craig Miller (CMiller@ssd.com), February 19, 2002.
The thing that really gets me about these things is:
I am outside A LOT, and I look at the sky all the time because I am waitng on something very special;), and I just naturally like to look up- these things I see here, were NOT in the sky above my place until this past summer. Since about the beginning of October the sky has been filled with them 3-5 days per week for the most part. This incongruety causes me to seriously question the otherwise understandable scientific explanations of "frosting" if you will. The sky above my house didn't suddenly change atmospherically as the DX'rs would have noted that.
I posted the site because of the vastness of the info and also to get naysayers opinions on the scienttific aspects of it. I want to KNOW what these are. I don't fear them, I am not suddenly seeing things that are not there, I can be irrational, but this is not something I am being irrational about.
Also, I saw one of the pink bodied planes for the first time last Friday...or Saturday. I just came from Vegas via Houston and no planes at either of these busy airports have pink bellies. I can't see the top of the planes from my lowly position. Any ideas on the airline with the pink, nearing mauve bodies?
Also, of interest with the aforementioned plane, the wings seemed a bit more forward than other large bodied planes and the engines were mounted along the body (behind the wings but not at the tail...just directly behind the wings) similar to the MD 80, but the body of this plane was noiceably shorter than the MD80. Any ideas on the model?
-- Doreen (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 19, 2002.
Craig and other skeptics,
Your assumption that if the chemtrails aren't doing something like killing people or spreading epidemics they aren't there. This is fallacious logic. I haven't seen anybody drop dead from them but I have seen thousands of chemtrails for over two years.
And if you live near Cleveland and see a lot of air traffic of course you see contrails. But that's just it; I DON'T live in a big air corridor, I live in podunk, flyover country, the boondocks, nowhere and I see dozens of chemtrails a day and there is no way that many big jets can be flying over and actually going somewhere.
If you lived in a pretty, scenic neighborhood and all the sudden 25 eighteen wheelers pulling vans with "GOVERNMENT DEATH RAY" painted in six foot tall letters on the sides came every day and parked along the streets, even if nothing else happened, you would get mighty tired of those trucks messing up the scenery every day. They wouldn't have to DO anything else, just being there where they don't belong would be plenty aggravating enough.
(That is unless you voted for Al Gore, then I suppose you would be delighted to have them there.)
Then it would get really weird if when you called the police, fire department, mayor's office, your congressman they all said,"What trucks? We don't know what your talking about." And then people in your pretty neighborhood started saying, "What trucks? Oh, THOSE trucks--oh they're just delivery vans--they've always been here." And then people on the internet and on talk radio were saying "There are no such things as death ray trucks." And all the while, day after day, there those 18 wheelers sat with the six foot high letters plainly in view.
-- Rags (email@example.com), February 20, 2002.
Bravo Rags very well put! To others who claim not to see it, It's true you need glasses. I've got a few other points not mentioned here. 1. The color of the sky a Simple expirement. Take a photo of the sky on any day. Compare this photo to any photo ever taken of the sky before 2000. Once the sky was a deep blue, Now you will see that the sky is almost white in comparison. 2. The sky at night. This time go outside at night and just look up. Do you remember how it used to get black at night ? Well now it never gets past a dark blue and you'll notice that the reflective properties of the chemtrails illuminate the area around any light source much more than they used to. 3.Get a black light and a black shirt. Under the black light remove all traces of lint of anything else that glows under the light. Go outside with the shirt and walk around for 2 minutes.Turn on the blacklight and you will see how much stuff they are dumping on you. On the shirt will be houndreds of small fibre looking threads , but go under a microscope and you will see that they are all alike and do not resemble any thing found in any science book. 4.Lights at night. If you look at any street light on any nite you will see a blurry misty haze around them. This was not always there! 5. Go to nasa's site and find the pictures taken from mars looking back at the earth. Notice anything funny? The earth is now a green hazy blob. 6. Watch the weather reports. I live in the valley of the sun, phoenix arizona. We haven't had a day without clouds in over a year! Why do you think they would have called this the valley of the sun when it was cloudy every day? I could bring up so many things but if you by now haven't found out about the slight but true changes that have happened ever since they started this crap than I'm afraid there is no hope for you. Johnny Zar
-- Johnny Zar (firstname.lastname@example.org), February 19, 2004.