Questioning The Apparitions of the Virgin Mary in Medjugorje.greenspun.com : LUSENET : Catholic : One Thread |
Is anyone else skeptical about what is going on at Medjugorje?
-- Michael Hitzelberger (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 16, 2002
Check this article out --http://www.inwave.com/~webmastr/ChronMay99Opinion.html
-- Steve Jackson (SteveJ100@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002.
JmjMike, since that subject is one that gets people pretty excited in both directions, I have been very pleased and relieved to see that no one has ever wanted to discuss it in earnest on this forum.
I can't read anyone's mind, so I don't know the reason for this, but I have hoped that it is because people consider it important to wait for a firm and final Magisterial decision on it. (That decision could come any day -- or perhaps not for many years.)
I will only say that each person would be wise to keep an open mind about the whole thing. Otherwise, by insisting on making a private decision without being qualified to make one, a person may be tempted to leave the Church when the Magisterium makes a firm decision in the opposite direction. [I find it easy to keep an open mind by ignoring the whole thing.]
JFG
-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), February 16, 2002.
SteveThanks for the article.
John
Quiet is fine. The Church does not condemn visiting yet. I asked this question because I have been arguing this a bit on another forum. I had the unfortunate experience of getting into the messages when I returned to the church after many years of no faith. At the time I was trying to interpret my own dreams which I also thought were "messages". I took them and the Medjugorje messages to be from God and I had the unfortunate result of giving myself malnutrition from fasting. In my thinking I was going to be a saint and the end was near. It was serious but I got out of it through adhering to Church teaching and spiritual advisors.
A similar movement, like Medjugorje, occurred in the second century, it was called Montanism. Here is a link telling breifly about montanism The great Tertullian, a Catholic theologian who is quoted in the Catechism, fell victim to the heretical sect. Montanism began with doctrinally sound messages from the Holy Spirit spoken through a prophet and prophetesses. It might be true that Tertullian's writings are considered unsound after a certain date. The Montanism phenomenon swept the Catholic world and eventually was condemned by Rome. The condemnation was based on the character of the leaders because the messages and books where technically within church teaching. They preached extreme asceticism. Its practices lacked moderation. I see parallels here with Medjugorje. I also see other things wrong with it but if it is best not discussed I am fine with that. It would be nice to keep others from falling into the pit I did. After I put several discrediting posts on another forum it seemed that I changed none of diehard message lovers. People are hooked on it like its television.
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 17, 2002.
I am sorry, my link inserts two "http://" in the address when it tries to pull it up. If at first you don't succeed...montanism
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 17, 2002.
My view above could be wrong. I have an addictive personality and it may have been that I got into various visionaries without restraint and without enough spiritual direction. I thought I might get some light on the Medjugorje messages by a discussion here. Of the many many various Marian see-ers around the world, the Medjugorje messages are the most believable to me. I tend to agree with the idea from the messages that a chastisement is due. We sorely lack as a culture: poverty, chastity, obedience, prayer, fasting, and almsgiving. I will remain neutral about Medjugorje, we could discuss moral decay instead.
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 18, 2002.
Mike,
My brother-in-law is getting ready for his second visit to Medjugorje; and is very moved by the first experience. He met Wayne Weible on the plane going over in his first trip. He considers the author absolutely sincere and convincing about the apparitions he's reported in his books.He told us he has every reason to believe the events have been truthfully reported by the original visionaries and also in the testimony of other witnesses. I thought the fact he was anxious to re-visit Medjugorje was extraordinary in itself. My brother-in-law is not particularly credulous; nor is he easily impressed. He's always been a good Catholic and active in his church; so I have to consider him very perceptive about the spiritual value of these events.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 18, 2002.
Eugene,Neat story about your brother-in-law. One thing Medjugorje does for sure is convert lukewarms that were headed toward atheisitc thoughts. I mean that even if the messages are not from God, although they could be, that since they are coming from somewhere either the spiritually good or spiritually evil realms, that this opposes a materialistic view. Many do not believe in any spirits. Many believe only in what they can touch.
I read somewhere that this idea is one reason God allows demonic possessions, to show that the material world is not all there is to us. There are other reasons but that is one. I am not implying anything about which side Medjugorje is on by this observation. I am implying that the messages are really perceived by the see-ers as I do believe this to be true.
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 18, 2002.
Well, like Barbour wrote about the Church, "They can overlook, or even benefit from, the instrumentalization of the faithful’s piety for the ends of ecclesiastical or secular politics, as long as the faith of the people is strengthened or at least not disturbed."I maintain a moderated skepticism about almost any such aparitions, balanced by a profound respect for those who have devotions to them. I personally take to heart the writings of St. John of the Cross, when he advises his spiritual apprentices to ignore all visions, lest they become arrogant. (He justifies this by saying that if the vision does indeed come from God, then it will have its proper spiritual effect even without conscious acknowledgment or "dwelling on it.")
Apparitions are a tricky business; best to err on the side of caution, IMO.
-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), February 19, 2002.
Jeffrey:
Would you believe Catholics are not under the obligation to believe in a real Virgin of Guadalupe, or of Fatima? Not even Our Lady of Lourdes, despite a lot of miraculous proof?If the Church were just indifferent to the truth of some apparitions, it would impoverish us as Catholics. Still; we could rationalise it as ''for the best'', erring on the side of caution.
To me, there's no problem coming to a personal decision. For or against the validity of claims like apparitions. It won't endanger my faith. Unless, of course, my credulity is so pronounced I'll swallow the story of the Mormon angel Moroni and such.
Let's face it; the Catholic Church has been favored at intervals with a true and holy frequency of apparitions, of the Blessed Virgin Mary particularly. I think even the schismatics and of course, Byzantine churches have been graced with some true miraculous events. It would seem only natural, if God truly loves all of us. He is always vigilant over us, and the many graces holy apparitions have brought the world are definite signs of His favor.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 19, 2002.
Eugene,If I ever thought that our Church made mandatory the belief in these visions, then darn, I'd believe in them! But they don't.
I do believe in Our Lady of Guadalupe; she just makes sense, I think. After all, many today say that it was not Hernan Cortez that converted the native Mexicans, but Our Lady. It appears to fit God's tendency of speaking to people in languages they understand. :)
-- Jeffrey Zimmerman (jeffreyz@seminarianthoughts.com), February 19, 2002.
I read that the purity of a vision depends on the holiness of the seer. I suppose God is not bound by this but He must respect this most times. A great sinner may get an earth shattering conversion vision and the great sinner is not holy, yet. But visionaries with authentic periodic visions from God tend to be very holy (I hear).It seems that if the Church approves of a saint's visions then regardless of my attitude regarding "authenticity" I can be edified by taking the information they offer to heart.
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 19, 2002.
Jeffrey:
That is exactly my point. All Catholics are encouraged, but not bound-- to acknowledge certain apparitions as genuine. If a Catholic has no inclination to follow popular beliefs, he is perfectly free not to. But as I stated, he is the poorer for it, if the event had genuine merit, and he rejected it. It's his choice.You are free to believe one event, and doubt another. If it's according to your reason, you may believe with conviction; because the Church does NOT forbid you to.
Private revelations are always doctrinally seen as optional to the believer. But, for instance, if I only believed in the Virgin of Guadalupe, and rejected or was skeptical toward all other apparitions --so-called, it would seem my own faith is lackadaisical.
I believe deeply in the Sacred Heart of Jesus. It's reliably known as as an apparition which was granted a holy nun, Saint Margaret Mary. In so many years past now, our love for the Sacred Heart has been based on --what? A source not sustained by the Church as having all the validity of inspired truth. Yet, the Church always encouraged the faithfuls' love for Jesus and His Most Sacred Heart. There has been enough reason then-- to believe the saint spoke the truth.
Just as in Fatima, and Lourdes; an aura of religious credibility (not credulity) made it seem impossible for a Catholic to reject the events easily.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 19, 2002.
Jeff and GeneI see both of your views. They are equally valid and clear to me. I think God made you that way on purpose. If we were all the same where would the symphony sound come from when we got together?
-- Michael Hitzelberger (michael.hitzelberger@ vscc.cc.tn.us), February 20, 2002.
----''The hills are alive ! ! ! With the SOUNDDD of Musickkk ! ! !,/i> / / /
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), February 20, 2002.
good choice gene
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), February 20, 2002.
It is the local bishop, not the Vatican that condemns apparitions and Medjugorje has been condemned by both the present and former bishops. This one doesn't need Church condemnation; the lies and the phony Blessed Mother who speaks heresy and has visions on demand of the seers, condemns itself. Why insult God by asking His Church to condemn what is so obviously false and insults His Blessed Mother by putting lies into her mouth? Some people's minds are so open that their brains have fallen out, especially when it comes to Medjugorje. Medjugorje is probably a Satanic distraction against Fatima where they do not allow anything about Medjugorje to be spoken there. It continues because it appeals to the cult-minded and you can never argue with one whose mind has been soaked in religious garbage. I know; I've tried. Money laundering sex scandals; fraud, etc., are all part of this cult. Ivan goes around the U.S. collecting money from stupid people who believe his visions on demand in our Catholic Churches and that he sees the BVM every day. If that was true then we should declare him Pope. Why do we need the Church? We have daily messages from heaven that say virtually nothing that hasn't been said before. Ivan is a very boring speaker. Last time I heard him people were leaving before he was finished speaking.
-- Pauline Moulder (brazenbrat@cox.net), April 09, 2002.
Pauline,I tend to agree with you.
I think Ivan does have visions but they are not from God. He sees the wolf in sheep's clothing.
"Some people's minds are so open that their brains have fallen out"
Thanks for the laugh! I fall into that catagory on occasion.
One thing I like to mention is how Medjugorje people always say this person's or that person's rosary turned gold while visiting. Mine did too after a person told me mine would turn and I after began reading books on it. So I was one of these gold rosary advertisers for a little while, much to my embarassment. This rosary turned gold stuff is a sign of God they say. But I ask, how is wealth, that is [b]gold[/b], a sign of God? I mean the three wise men renounced their magical habits by giving Jesus the matter of their occult alchemy tricks, namely gold, frankincense and myrrh. Also scripture says you can not serve both God and mammon yet he turns rosaries into mammon at Medjugorje, I think not. Then I read in, Dark Night Of The Soul by Doctor Of The Church, St. John Of The Cross, about a proper first rosary for a new believer:
"And I saw another who said his prayers using beads that were made of bones from the spine of a fish; his devotion was certainly no less precious on that account in the sight of God, for it is clear that these things carried no devotion in their workmanship or value. Those, then, who start from these beginnings and make good progress attach themselves to no visible instruments, nor do they burden themselves with such, nor desire to know more than is necessary in order that they may act well; for they set their eyes only on being right with God and on pleasing Him, and therein consists their covetousness."
Personally I think Medjugorje is garbage. So much for being neutral.
-- Mike H (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), April 09, 2002.
Hello~if I may... :)Mike~you asked about how is gold a sign of God, or something along those lines....I could see it, as the city is described in Revelations, the new temple, etc.
But I must say, I take all of these "visions" with a grain of salt. Maybe I told you that I see and talk to Mary everyday~how would you know if it's true or not? You can't get in my mind, can you? *shrugs* It's just a human reaction, I guess but like I said, I take it with a grain of salt. I sometimes wonder, to be quite honest, why there aren't more sightings. And why there really aren't any of Jesus. It's always Mary. Now, maybe there's something to that....maybe there's not. Maybe it has to do with what is written in Revelations. I dunno. I guess, selfishly, I sometimes wonder~what makes these other people so special? Why does she appear to only them and no one else? Why can't anyone else gathered there see her? Perhaps that's wrong of me to think that way. And perhaps that's what people may have thought about Mary when she had Jesus~what makes her so special? *wry grin* Perhaps....she thought the same thing. But about the visions~I take the words to heart about a wolf in sheep's clothing. You just never know, do you?
-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 09, 2002.
Wow, there's some pretty heavy stuff going on here. My first question is, what message from Medjugorje is in conflict with the Catholic faith? Prayer? Conversion? Fasting? Peace? Love? Hope?...As far as validation goes, time will tell.Is there good or bad coming from what's happening in Medjugorje? Spiritual healing or division? As far as the rosaries turning "gold colored," these are signal graces. Popes are not appointed according to who receives messages.
Look around you. "Signs of the Times" are everywhere. However, our Lord's own Apostles were waiting for his return in their lifetime. Remember also, none of us may live long enough to witness these end of times. This may be my last day, so the question I ask is, Am I ready to go to judgment? I am at peace with God. Who of us would like to live here on earth forever?
Remember, growth in faith is 2 steps forward, 1 step back. If indeed chastisements are to come, without faith it would be much harder to get through.
"If He leads me to it, God can lead me through it." "I can do all things through Christ Jesus, who strengthens me."
+Peace Be With You. -Dawn
-- Dawn (dlmjwself@juno.com), April 11, 2002.
A good book on private revelations is "A Still Small Voice" By Fr Benedict Groeschel. Some very good people have had positive things to say about Medjugorje, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and even the Pope apparently has said some good things about it. The thing that makes me positive is that in 20 years the Vatican has never condemned it, with 20 million plus pilgrims, if there were serious problems you can bet they would step in fast.
-- W. Gr (nospam@me.net), April 11, 2002.
Actually, I'm not quite sure if the church has out and out condemned it or not but if you look at this page which comes from this page you will see it's listed as a false apparition. Their link to information on Medjugorje is here .
-- Jackiea (sorry@dontlikespam.com), April 11, 2002.
You seem to be in love with this Unity Publishing, which is at odds with the Church on Fr Gruner, and much else no doubt. Why not see what the Church itself has to say, which is fully laid out on ewtn.com under faith, then Q&A, then FAQ. The quick summary is, anyone is free to go on private pilgrimage, although church sponsored ones are not allowed, the 1991 Bishops' Conference statement still stands, which say no evidence of supernatural nature has been proven, which does not rule out authenticity, one way or the other. Anyone who claims Medjugorje is "False" is giving an opinion, including the Bishop of the place, which he has done, and the Vatican has said it remains only his opinion. Usually the church leaves it to the local Bishop, but in this case the Vatican has stepped in and overruled on several occasions. Why? Could it be that Rome sees something there?
-- w Gr (nospam@me.net), April 11, 2002.
My question is, if you don't believe in what's happening in Medjugorje...Why the attacks? Is it threatening? hmmm? +Pax, -Dawn
-- Dawn (dlmjwself@juno.com), April 11, 2002.
Dawn wrote:"My question is, if you don't believe in what's happening in Medjugorje...Why the attacks? Is it threatening? hmmm?"
Dawn,
I want to start out by saying this--I have never stated an opinion for or against Medjugorje. I do want to address your questions as they apply to miracles in general.
The Catholic Church is reserved in supporting "signs from God" because it has to be careful not to put its credibility behind something too soon before it is found out to be either true or a hoax.
In the past, miracles have created a demand for faithful to visit the site of the occurrence. These pilgrims, for practical reasons, stimulate the local economy. They not only tend to purchase religious art; they also can fill local hotels and restaurants. The temporal benefit that locals receive from pilgrims may be a strong enough reason to "create" a miracle to improve the economy. To some of these people, the economy is what needs a miracle.
Should we "attack" possible miracles? No, we should not.
Are these possible miracles "threatening"? Yes. If found out to be a hoax, these "miracles" damage the credibility of the Church. In the Bible, we read that Jesus Himself teaches us to be mindful:
Matthew 24:24 - For false Christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to lead astray, if possible, even the elect.
In Christ,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 12, 2002.
Mr Mateo: Most of what you say is true, although I'm not sure I understand what the relevance is to the "local economy". Do you have some specific instance in mind? If so, say so plainly. The Gospel says we are not to seek signs, but when signs do come, and are given on solid authority, then it is pure stubborness not to accept them. At this point, the events at Medjugorje come to us on human authority, and after 20 years and 20 million pilgrims the Bishops and Rome have never said one word is against the teaching of the church. Even authentic apparitions can be wrong, but the simple message of Medjugore, peace, prayer, fasting, the Eucharist, pennance is one the church has echoed through the ages. Personally, I think people want to attack it not because it is false, but because it is hard.
-- W. Gr (not@thisspot.com), April 12, 2002.
Dear W. Gr,
There is no intention of attacks on the belief of anyone. All you've seen is that some aren't convinced, or are openly skeptical. I once met a Portuguese-American who thought the Virgin's appearances at Fatima were a hoax. That was his personal opinion. Not even the Church will convince some people. As long as the Catholic Church (not one bishop) doesn't condemn the Medjugorje events as false and harmful to the faith, no one has cause to ''attack'' the faith of others. Nor are they in sin not believing for themselves.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 12, 2002.
Eugene:Of course not, and that's fine. Some of the web pages, and some books written have included the most scurrilous lies. I've heard the same thing about Fatima, which is I've been to. (Medjugorje as well). So, each will be answerable before God according to what he has been given. The main thing is to follow the church and be at peace.
-- W. Gr (you@betcha.com), April 12, 2002.
Hi W. Gr. Your words are in bold:"Most of what you say is true, although I'm not sure I understand what the relevance is to the "local economy". Do you have some specific instance in mind? If so, say so plainly."
I honestly don't know what else to say. Local economies benefit from an increase in visitors. There is a financial gain to having a "miracle." This is a temptation for people to fabricate a "miracle." I am not speaking in specifics, because I'm not here to point fingers at anyone. I simply want to answer the question of why people are skeptical of any miracles.
"The Gospel says we are not to seek signs, but when signs do come, and are given on solid authority, then it is pure stubborness not to accept them. At this point, the events at Medjugorje come to us on human authority, and after 20 years and 20 million pilgrims the Bishops and Rome have never said one word is against the teaching of the church."
The two statements you make here are interesting. (1) It is stubborn not to accept a miracle; and (2) the Church has not denied Medjugorje. Well, the Catholic Church is "stubborn" in the sense that it has not formally "accepted" Medjugorje. The absense of a formal denial does not constitute support from the Church.
I purposely speak in generalities because I'm trying to speak to the issue of modern-day miracles in general. I'm not here to criticize Medjugorje, because I have no knowledge to do so.
In Christ,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 12, 2002.
Mateo,The church has given no final judgement on Medjugorje because the events are ongoing. Perhaps they never will, or they will give it many years from now. Anyone is free to believe what they like about Medjugorje, or any other apparition. I challenge you to go and see, or at least to read what the visionaries themselves have said, not all the many books pro and con have said. The general statement about the local economy is interesting, but why bring it up unless you have a specific example, or unless you are alleging this against the Franciscans. (an unfounded charge that has been made before. Honestly, I can think of better money making schemes than selling wooden rosaries). So whatever one chooses to believe, it is not for me to say, only to tell you what I have myself seen.
-- W Gr (me@none.com), April 12, 2002.
W Gr writes:"Honestly, I can think of better money making schemes than selling wooden rosaries)."
Hahaha! Though I see your point, you should concede that pilgrims spend a lot more on their lodging and food than on wooden rosaries.
BTW, if you doubt that people see a connection between the local economy and religious pilgrims, you might look to the Acts of the Apostles. Here's what happens in Ephesus (Acts 19:24-27):
"For a man named Deme'trius, a silversmith, who made silver shrines of Ar'temis, brought no little business to the craftsmen. These he gathered together, with the workmen of like occupation, and said, "Men, you know that from this business we have our wealth. And you see and hear that not only at Ephesus but almost throughout all Asia this Paul has persuaded and turned away a considerable company of people, saying that gods made with hands are not gods. And there is danger not only that this trade of ours may come into disrepute but also that the temple of the great goddess Ar'temis may count for nothing, and that she may even be deposed from her magnificence, she whom all Asia and the world worship."
Now, I am not saying that the apparitions of Medjugorje were false. I am simply responding to your request to see an example of people whose local economy depended on religious pilgrims. In this case, they almost killed St. Paul to defend the economy.
In Christ,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 12, 2002.
OK, fair enough. The people their are not wealthy. They are also not far from the Dalmation coast, and produce a wonderful local wine. Either one of these would offer much better profit opportunities. :) The whole thing began during communist times, so there was no free market to exploit. Anyway they are good people, straight forward and faithful. So that's my contribution... Pax
-- W GR (hasta@la.vista), April 12, 2002.
To tell the truth, I'm not up on the Medjugorje event. What little i know is hearsay. My own aged mother is a believer in the Medjugorjie story, as is my brother-in-law. He just returned from his second pilgrimage there. It has moved him very much.He told us a while back some strange things; concerning village dogs which guide visitors uphill to the places where visions were seen. No one knows why the neighborhood dog population is so friendly and accomodating to visitors; but he swears they act as real guides! Very odd, to say the least. My brother-in-law also commented very favorably on the people of the town. He said they are all great lovers of God and hospitable to strangers. Very warm people. He loved the place.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 12, 2002.
I never heard of the dogs, but its a little village so maybe that explains it. I don't focus on the stories of pilgrims, but on the messages and visionaries themselves. I don't think every word out of the visionaries' mouths is Gospel truth, but I do think there is something to it. It is true that my biggest impression was the faith of the locals, the long lines of confession, the emphasis on the Eucharist, the cross, the solid teaching of the Franciscans. So, who knows?
-- W Gr (not@this.net), April 12, 2002.
I didn't see this yet posted. Here is an extensive web-site for all things Medjugorje.W Gr wrote:
"my biggest impression was the faith of the locals, the long lines of confession, the emphasis on the Eucharist, the cross, the solid teaching of the Franciscans"
These are the results that help me believe in the authenticity of a miracle. As Jesus said (Matthew 7:20) :
"Thus you will know them by their fruits."
In Christ,
Mateo
-- (MattElFeo@netscape.net), April 12, 2002.
Like I said, time will tell if Medjugorje is a true apparition from heaven. What I don't understand are those who believe that God "wound" us up, and we're here all alone. What a sad thought! By the way, I've had 2 signal graces concerning rosaries turning gold "colored." Pretty profound. I showed my husband, who is a Methodist all my rosaries, laying them all down on our coffee table. They were all silver-colored. One of our Blessed Mother's promises to those who pray the rosary daily is a -or- are 'signal graces.' The first one I had that changed was when I started painting a cement Our Lady of Grace statue that had sat in my kitchen (from the outside of our local church). This statue had sat there for a couple of weeks. The second was when I pulled out my rosary to pray the Divine Mercy Chaplet on Good Friday at 3 pm, a couple of years ago. 'Ever receive the scent of roses? When all at once you realize that's what it is, wow! Nobody needs to believe me, of course. I just thought I'd share.
Prayer opens dialogue with God. He does not push his will on us, we're here making choices along the way. Like I teach our children, when we reach heaven, we'll know all truths. Until then, I'm praying for peace. Peace in my heart, in our family, our country and our world. The peace that can only come from our creator. Man's peace is false without God.
+Peace Be With You. -Dawn
-- Dawn (dlmjwself@juno.com), April 13, 2002.
Greetings, friends.I remain officially "neutral" about Medjugorje, but at the same time very skeptical and cautious. I have a friend who went there and experienced the miracles and conversions that many speak of. I am always very much touched by my friend's faith and devotion, and the idea of people being brought to the sacraments and being converted to the Faith. Of course, those fruits come by the Grace of God, and don't make the apparitions necessarily authentic.
What concerns me about the apparitions are the banal nature of the messages. Our Lady of Fatima had messages that were very specific in nature. Every action or word given by Our Lady in the bible was very important. I certainly won't rule anything out, but I definitely choose not to get too caught up in Medjugorje.
That is interesting about how rosaries turning gold could in a way be a "signal grace." Part of me says a lot of that stuff is a bunch of hokey pete. Rosary changing color? Big whoop! Maybe it's tarnish! But then I also think of my best friend from childhood who went and saw the pope at World Youth Day and her rosary did turn gold. If you'd know what a beautiful and honest soul she is, and what a Christ-centered faith she has, (she would never base her faith on something like a gold rosary) I guess it's possible.
+peace+ susan :-)
-- Susan Burghart (little_moonboot@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.
P.S. ...I still wouldn't mind passing through the area to see what the fuss is about and at the very least trying some of the local wine. :-)
-- Susan Burghart (little_moonboot@yahoo.com), April 15, 2002.
An anecdote I read in the life story of Anne Catherine Emmerich makes a good point about apparent banality with regard to heavenly visions.The holy woman had narrated a vision she'd seen in one of her many ecstasies. It had to do with some strange and melodramatic things associated with a relic of Saint Walburga. I won't go into what these things were. But Emmerich's own amenuensis, who wrote down faithfully everything she related to him about the visions she saw, was taken aback. He seemed to object to this story, saying it was strange she should see as true so many ''singular things which even pious priests denied.''
She answered, ''One cannot say how simple, natural and connected all such things appear in the state of contemplation; and on the contrary how perverse, unreasonable, and even insane are the intentions and actions of the enlightened world compared with them! People who think themselves very intelligent and who are esteemed such by others, often appear to me insane enough to be confined in a madhouse.''
She was saying this to a brilliant man; a poet and writer held in the same regard throughout Germany as Schiller and Goethe. He was her daily servant and secretary by his own choice. Such was the spiritual attraction of the stigmatised Augustinian nun, Anne Catherine Emmerich.
It may be that in those odd and banal details we keep hearing when Medjugorjie is discussed, some true humility is being demanded of us all. So that what God is pleased to reveal goes straight to our hearts, not to the intellect we place so much store on.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), April 15, 2002.
Dear Susan: The "Signal Graces" is not something I made up, they're -one- of the promises of Our Holy Mother to those who pray the rosary daily. It works. The daily recitation of the rosary is one of the requests from Our Lady in Medjugorje. After the mass, the rosary is the most indulgenced prayer in the Church.The 'purported' Medjugorje visionaries have also been tempted by the diabolical side. The message here? Discern everything, pray to the Holy Spirit for help...Actually we're all tempted by the diabolical daily, and need to discern everything!
+Peace Be With You. -Dawn
-- Dawn (dlmjwself@juno.com), April 15, 2002.
Thanks for the insights. Again I don't rule anything out, though I will say many aspects of these apparitions certainly are unprecedented. That most everyone can agree on. :) God bless all. + -Susan
-- Susan Burghart (little_moonboot@yahoo.com), April 17, 2002.
Hi Everyone...I kept this bookmarked, and haven't been back for awhile. Another thought of mine, is Garabandal Spain. The 4 little girls were documented on tape in ecstacy (sp?), and one even received holy communion, purportedly from St. Michael. However...Later, they were not sure, and recanted their visions. Now they're not sure. There are several people whom I know who are "waiting" to see if indeed Garabandal was indeed Divine in nature. Yes, the holy church waits for the "fruition" of seers. They must! Remember always, Satan masquerades as an angel of the light. ~MIR~ Pray! +Peace Be With You. -Dawn
-- Dawn Self (dlmjwself@juno.com), September 04, 2002.
Here is a link to another thread that I started a while back. LINK. It has a lot of info on Garabandal. Hope this answeres some of your questions.In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 04, 2002.
This post isn't pointed at anyone in particular on this thread, but in general... Medjugorje has been condemned by the local bishop and his predecessors. The local bishop is the one with the authority to make this determination.That's it, right there, in a nutshell. What part of this don't people understand? Are we going to honor the authority of our Church or are we going to blow it off when we think we know better because of so-called fruits? When I hear the phrase "the fruits of Medjugorje", I think of something a bit different than most others...
No one needs to going over the local bishop's head to the Vatican, the Pope or whatnot with their grievances. If you are waiting for the Vatican to come down with a judgement, you are already in opposition to the Church's previous rulings on the matter, via the bishop. What kind of fruit is that? The Vatican won't speak because the job has already been done by the local bishop.
If you want to see the sun spin over your head, it is much cheaper easier to down a bottle of Jack Daniels and lay out on the grass in the back yard. I don't suggest that, but at least unlike believing in Medjugorge, you'll wake up tommorrow with a clear head.
The 'Mary' of Medjugorje says some heretical things. Hey, I am not required to believe Medjugorje, but I am required to speak up against heresy.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 04, 2002.
You're a good guy, Jake... not sure where you stand on Medjugorje, and as such hope not to disappoint you, but I must speak the truth as I see it.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 04, 2002.
Emerald, my friend,
The truth is, the bishop in Medjugorie has not ''condemned'' any part of the messages of the Virgin Mary (Gospa) as reported. He just didn't believe the visionaries and didn't allow Fr. Slavco to give absolutions in the sacrament of reconciliation. It wasn't explained why. This caused great sadness for Fr. Slavco, but he abided by the bishop's rule.This same bishop, whom you think condemned the visions was a willing and respectful participant at Fr. Slavco's funeral mass, and blessed all the faithful (thousands) who grieved for the loss of their holy priest.
It's simple enough. Medjugorie is still awaiting verification by the Church as things now stand. Everyone is free to believe or not believe; the Church doesn't judge on veracity one way or another. It is well- known that Pope John Paul II is a believer himself. He has spoken favorably about Medjugorie's spiritual worthiness.
Incidentally; a friend of mine said that in one apparition the Blessed Virgin Mary stated Father Slavco is in heaven, canonized as far as she was concerned. The Church will follow later. I have reason to believe this, because the Franciscan led an exemplary life of self-denial and saintliness. All who knew him will testify to this. I've seen the videos of his many charitable activities and clear state of grace before the world. He was a saint. If you can't see this, it's your loss.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 04, 2002.
Eugene, this is the reasoning behind my position... first, the heresy:Oct. 1, 1981: "All religions are equal before God," says the Virgin. (Chronological Corpus of Medjugorje, p. 317)
The Virgin: "I do not dispose of all graces...Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary." (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278)
"In God there are no divisions or religions; it is you in the world who have created divisions." (Faricy, p.51)
Match that against these powerful affirmations of previous Popes:
"There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.)
"We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
"The most Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that none of those existing outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics, can have a share in life eternal; but that they will go into the eternal fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels, unless before death they are joined with Her; and that so important is the unity of this ecclesiastical body that only those remaining within this unity can profit by the sacraments of the Church unto salvation, and they alone can receive an eternal recompense for their fasts, their almsgivings, their other works of Christian piety and the duties of a Christian soldier. No one, let his almsgiving be as great as it may, no one, even if he pour out his blood for the Name of Christ, can be saved, unless he remain within the bosom and the unity of the Catholic Church. (Pope Eugene IV, the Bull Cantate Domino, 1441.)
And now for the rebellion against legitimate authority of the magisterium:
June 21, 1983: The Virgin states: "Tell the Father Bishop (Zanic) that I request his urgent conversion to the events of the Medjugorje parish...I am sending him the penultimate warning. If he is not converted, or will not be converted, my judgment as well as that of my Son Jesus will strike him." (Seer Ivanka writing to Bishop Zanic)
What in the world? Huh? An apparition outranks God-established magisterial authority and makes threats? Also... From August, 1984, to April, 1985, the apparitions continued to take place in the parish church despite the Bishop of Mostar's former prohibition.
Eugene, I'm not about beating you over the head with a broom as I no doubt believe your heart is good standing (and btw I admire your incredible wit), but then again... can't blame me for mouthing off if I think I'm on to something.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 04, 2002.
This SITE has some interesting information on Medjugorje.But I must say that whatever the Church (meaning the Local Bishop or the Pope) decides, I will submit to.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 04, 2002.
You probably would want to here some of the negative STU FF as well.Hmmmm...
It's a close one. If what they are saying on this site is true, then one might want to do some serious questioning.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 04, 2002.
Emerald:
I'm not in favor of heresies either. I haven't read up all the material you're quoting from. My regard for you and others still skeptical forces me to take your statements on your word alone. I would like to read everything which the Blessed Virgin is purported to be saying. Time for more homework?As for these: ''The Virgin: "I do not dispose of all graces...Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary." (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278) "In God there are no divisions or religions; it is you in the world who have created divisions." (Faricy, p.51)'' If I assume you haven't misquoted, they stand nevertheless not as heretical statements, but possibly controversial. Christ is not only where all graces come from-- He may, in fact truly prefer that some petition come to Him directly. Our Blessed Mother can hardly be blamed for not toeing the Catholic line, can she? Her own place is as a Mother of the faithful; or even better, of all humankind.ask her intercession ONLY, not for grace itself. She prays for all humanity, not only for the Church.
I'm sorry to have to parse her words without having studied the reports you quoted. Permit me just to say, it is POSSIBLE to parse them, if a person has a mind to.
I can't truly admit she would favor each and every other faith; but all believers in God--??? Is this her real meaning? Could she be saying, Jesus has mercy on all faithful and upright souls, no matter if they haven't found the True Faith? It would seem OK to me; not heretical.
The Blessed Virgin isn't teaching theology, but calling her children to Christ. One way is open for every man and woman; Jesus Christ. We've discussed all the aspects of salvation through the Church here before, and she teaches the Baptism of Desire as an article of faith. We know the Church is the only appointed teacher; however, through the grace of Christ even those separated from her may yet be saved; as long as they are in invincible ignorance, repent their sins and give theirlove to God. Perhaps this is the context you were missing, on the messages of Medjugorje? I'm not sure, but I have to wonder if Mary ever said anything counter to the Word of God. Certainly, if this can be documented, I would have to be scared of Medjugorje altogether. We shall see. The Church won't be silent forever.
-- eugene c. chavez (chavezec@pacbell.net), September 04, 2002.
To be honest Gene, I'm bad with my homework and lean heavily on people I know for information. Most of them for one reason or another don't seem to work (come to think of it)... maybe that's it; I get home from work and I'm too drained to research any one topic too heavily; I work all hours all different times because of what I do... there is no schedule.But I have to say that I try to muddle through these questions; medjugorie, the Pope kissing the Koran, no salvation outside the Church, end times or not, Vatican II, the Novus Ordo, liberals, sede vacantists, the American Revolution, blah blah blah. It isn't easy for me. More than ever it seems like the age of confusion, and I think of Satan working 24/7 to trip people up. I wonder how accountable God will hold us for details; it scares me sometimes. Other times I shove off the questions for later consideration and kid myself there are more important mundane matters to take care of.
That works for a while until I look at the motion of our society. I look at a sea of red and white lights on the 805; everyone seems in a hurry to get where they are going without knowing why and it confuses me. Like lemmings without a cliff... so I go back to considering all these confusing things again.
I have no idea if I am right or wrong about anything really.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 04, 2002.
Well, let me clarify that a bit... I am sure I'm in the right Church.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 05, 2002.
May Jesus bless you all....I thought only Bishops Zanic and Peric were the ones echoing the "non-supernatural" state of Medjugorje's phenomenon. I've spent these last days reading about what "the others" have to say and I'm nothing but shocked!
Time will tell. I'm praying and fasting it won't be too late when it does. Everything has to be tested, but as humans we'll always be prone to be mistaken, even bishops. I can't tell if I am right about Medjugorje, I don't preach in public about it, I don't encourage people to follow(believe) what the Virgin says there, because the Church has not approve it, and until then it's not permited to do so; but let's be honest, in my case, right now I'm praying, fasting, visiting the Holy Sacrament, attending Mass, going to confession and hence experiencing peace as never before because I've felt the urgency to do it through Medjugorje's messages. Does that proves Medjugorje right? Of Course not! The Church has always taught us those exact things, but I wasn't listening and now I am.
There's no heresy in those messages cited. This is what The Church once said: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
Now check this out: "...men can gain salvation also in other ways, by God's mercy, even though we do not preach the Gospel to them..." (Pope Paul VI. EVANGELII NUNTIANDI, 1975)
Is also referred this message quoting Our Lady: "I do not dispose of all graces...Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary.". Some people say this is it! that this has to be diabolic because now the VBM is diminish to just one more saint saying prayers in heaven! hold it, an read this first: "...The maternal duty of Mary toward men in no wise obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows His power. For all the salvific influence of the Blessed Virgin on men originates, not from some inner necessity, but from the divine pleasure. It flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on His mediation, depends entirely on it and draws all its power from it" (LUMEN GENTIUM)
I've never read, seen or heard anything about Medjugorje's messages that seems suspicious to me; and I'm not easily convinced of anything.
That Ivan Dragicevic is driving a US$100,000 Mercedes and married a Miss US? so what? Judas was a thief and the Devil itself possessed him and Jesus was by his side all the time. Is that a reason to disbelieve the Apostles and their message?
Here the thing is: Is Medjugorje supernatural? and does it come from God?. None of its critics (besides bishops) doubt the first, they recognize it as supernatural but attribute it to the Devil. Cardinal Joshep Ratzinger has said more than one time that the things those bishops have said are their opinion and their sole opinion only.
The pilmigrage is now permited (Pope John Paul II is willing to go!!!) and the official version of the Church can only be expressed by the dioceses of Mostar, but until the apparitions continue nothing "official" can be said in the name of the Church about an apparition unless it obviously contadicts Church teachings and that has NOT happened.
Sorry it was this long. :(
Cristian.
-- Cristian (gabaonscy@hotmail.com), September 11, 2002.
Thanks you for your input, Cristian.Confusion...
You said:
"There's no heresy in those messages cited. This is what The Church once said: "There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved. (Pope Innocent III, Fourth Lateran Council, 1215.) "We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." (Pope Boniface VIII, the Bull Unam Sanctam, 1302.)
Now check this out: "...men can gain salvation also in other ways, by God's mercy, even though we do not preach the Gospel to them..." (Pope Paul VI. EVANGELII NUNTIANDI, 1975)"
When you point out what the Church once said, it appears to make certain truths 'not so immutable'. That the Church 'once taught' that there is no salvation outside the Church, but now admits that there could be, is in and of itself confusing to some. To point out the absurdity, sometime in the future one may say that the Church "once taught that murder is wrong but this is no longer the case".
That's why I say confusion. Now if someone can point out to me that the Church had an understanding, and has further advanced or clarified this understanding to a greater detail, this I find plausible as the truth won't be contradicted. Such as when Christ said he did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it.
Or, if someone can show me how the definitions of words make two seemingly contrary conclusion arise, such as clarification of the term 'outside' in the phrase 'no salvation outside the Church', or even the term 'Church'... then possibly I could see how the truth was never contradicted.
But to say that the Church once taught something, and now does not, seems to destroy the very basis of Faith. If I honestly thought that, I would have no reason to take my Catholic Faith seriously... and I'm not willing to not take it seriously, and I remain convinced that the Church has not changed its position on anything vital to doctrine.
The truth is out there.
I realize this post does only indirectly addresses Medjugorie, but that the question lies in something much deeper.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), September 11, 2002.
Emerald,You wrote: "But to say that the Church once taught something, and now does not, seems to destroy the very basis of Faith."
I don't remember Cristian saying “taught” nor "and now does not". I think it was just Cristians style of writing (or speaking) to say "...The Church once said..." Like if I were to say, "Emerald once said..." It doesn’t necessarily mean that now you take it back! It just means that this was once said (as opposed to once taught).
I give Cristian the benefit of the doubt - I think his points were relevant, in that depending on what angle you look at it, the words of Mary at Medjugarje can be seen as heretical or perfectly Catholic. That is why the Church must look at it, because we, in our haste to make decisions, usually don't pick up on some of the things that the Church will in time.
I also pledge my conformance with whatever decision the Church makes. However, I must say that I have heard many stories of people going to Mejugorje and being healed physically and spiritually. Cristian is just one of many cases where Mejugorje has been beneficial.
It is in my opinion, Emerald, that your skepticism sometimes gets the better of you. This can be good in some cases, but unless there is a balance between skeptical and gullible, then more often than not you will find yourself in err.
Hope you don't take offense at this - it's just an observation.
In Christ.
P.S. Welcome back to the Faith, Cristian.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 11, 2002.
Thanks for the feedback Jake and Emerald, and thanks for the welcoming Jake.I think Jake saw my point clearer, but I deeply understand what you mean with "Confusion" Emerald. That's what I've felt these days. I love this Church, and I am convinced that She is the Mystical Body of Our Lord Jesus Christ; but She has made many mistakes through time and If one should accept Mostar's bishop official pronouncement regarding Medjugorje, then, what should South-African parishioners have done when bishop Cawcutt pronounced himself as a supporter of homosexuals priests and nuns and hosted a porno-website? Those type of things make me love this Church more and more, but of course it hurts... and confuses.
It's true that Jesus's Church foundations rest over Peter(the Pope), but we can't forget that it is His Church. I think God permits these things to question us about where is our love, commitment, hope and faith placed, on the Church of The Lord or on The Lord of the Church.
-- Cristian (gabaonscy@hotmail.com), September 12, 2002.
"...She has made many mistakes through time..."Cristian - Just to clarify for you: The Church never makes a mistake. Because it is by the Power of the Holy Spirit, and for the Glory of God, that She exists! I had posted a thread earlier "foolish Catholics" that shows this in the Bible. What you are thinking of are those "foolish" Catholics INSIDE the Church, but they are NOT THE Church. The Church's teachings can be summed up in the Magesterium, which is errorless.
Take care, and God Bless!
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 12, 2002.
Once again: thanks Jake, for the clarification. It's of joy for me to know there are still catholics like you out there. When I referred to Church's mistakes I meant to say "Her sons mistakes" (as Pope John Paul II says) not at all referring to the Deposit of Faith. But your clarification is welcome.Just wondering: what is your opinion about Medjugorje Jake?
Until yesterday I was a 100% believer (in Medjugorje), after reading this document and the next five (BrianB,C,D,E,F) I've developed a different view. Now I'm really interested in seeing a little feedback!
Just wanted to shared this... when I attended Mass yesterday, it was different, it was like something very precious was taken away from me; when It was over I knew that feeling wasn't right. And I could see how I had developed a blind faith in those messages; I feel so much steem and love for Pope John Paul II and being honest, is obvious that this feeling has grown in me because I've read hundreds of times how the "Gospa" talks about him being "her favorite son", "her Pope" and I asked myself what would I think of our next pope if the "Gospa" said his heart wasn't entirely for God as she said of Msgr. Zanic? Hmmmm.
Right now I'd like Medjugorje to be true, but honestly, this has reminded me that my faith should be in only one place., like it's been said: in The Lord of the miracles, not in the miracles of The Lord.
-- Cristian (gabaonscy@hotmail.com), September 12, 2002.
"The Lord of the miracles, not in the miracles of The Lord."That is perfect, Cristian! I like that a lot. Thanks.
How do I feel about Medjugorje? Well, if your faith is strong to begin with, and you know the faith well, then these "messages" aren't for you, regardless. As the Catholic Church teaches, the Word of God is made manifest through 3 things: Sacred Tradition, the Bible, and the Magesterium; not apparitions. Therefore, in other words, Mary will NOT tell us anything that we should already know; she will only REMIND us of what we've been taught.
So, in my opinion, whenever you hear of an apparition - if it hasn't expressly been approved by the Catholic Church - just start to read your Bible more and read the Catechism, chances are (if it is a real message) you will pick up on the message without the apparition. These manifestations (when approved by the Church) are great, because they bring belief to the non-believers. But Jesus said, "blessed are they who do not see, but believe". By doing this (reading your Bible and the Catechism), you not only deepen your faith the way Christ wants - but you are also playing it safe by not possibly falling for fake (or Satan sent) apparitions.
God be with you, Cristian - Thanks for your posts.
In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake.huether@lamrc.com), September 12, 2002.
Jake H, I think that what you just told Cristian is exactly what the pope would say if asked the same question. I only wish that all Catholics grasped and expressed these important truths as well as you just did.
JFG
-- (jfgecik@hotmail.com), September 14, 2002.
Jake,I agree with John, that was a great answer!
Frank
-- Someone (ChimingIn@twocents.cam), September 14, 2002.
Why thank you John and Someone. I myself am just begining to pick up on some "key" truths. I really feel that this forum has lit a fire under me to start to really begin to know my faith WELL (not just so - so). I thank you for that. I only hope and pray that others catch the same zeal to learn!In Christ.
-- Jake Huether (jake_huether@yahoo.com), September 15, 2002.
The Medjugorie Virgin: "I do not dispose of all graces...Jesus prefers that you address your petitions directly to him, rather than through an intermediary." (Chron. Corp. p.181, 277-278)Boink...
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), November 21, 2002.
I just thought I would put in my two bits into the Medjugorje debate somewhere and hopefully this can help some people. I had a small personal experience with Mary near Medjugorje back in 1990 and have been wanting to do this for some time.I was with a tour group visiting the village of Tijhalina (TI- halina), not far from Medjugorje. There was the church run by Fr. Jozo. He was to have a talk on spirituality and the Medjugorje messages (Fr. Jozo, of course, is a priest closely connected to the visionaries, and at one point was reportedly told by someone or something unseen to "protect the children" by hiding them in a church as they were being pursued by Communist authorities).
Inside the church was the statue with the famous image of Our Lady that has come to represent her in any advertisement or publication you might see on Medjugorje. It is an extremely lifelike image. Each one of us was given a postcard-sized picture of the face as we came in to sit down.
The church was packed with hundreds of people, and the talk took extra long because it had to be translated into English.
Upon conclusion of the talk everyone was invited to come receive a blessing from Fr. Jozo. When I finally approached him he laid his left hand on my forehead and his right on that of a young, blonde- haired woman. My eyes closed and I immediately perceived a mental vision. It was a vision of Our Lady as she appeared in the face of the statue. The face rushed at me with incredible speed until it hit and literally knocked me down (there were people to catch us if we fell down, "slain in the Spirit" as some call it). I stayed on the ground for a few minutes and then got up. For about an hour after I felt a tremendous sense of Heavenly peace and comfort.
Over the years I have periodically thought back and examined this event. Was it all just something of my own imagination? I believe not, and here's why. First, the image was the last thing from my mind. I have said before I might as well have been thinking of Disneyland. Though the subject at hand was Mary and Medjugorje, the postcard picture had been left back in the pew and I truly had totally forgotten about it. Second, pictures I make in my head never rush at me. They remain stable and at a distance. This image hit me face to face at a speed that could beat the fastest cars on the freeway. Third, there's no way my own mind could instantly generate the overwhelming sense of spiritual peace I felt after it hit me. I happened to be going through some severe trials in my life that I came to Medjugorje to find healing over, and my mind was not in a state to mentally generate this level of peace on its own, and certainly not within a moment. Fourth, I distinctly felt that the image originated from outside of my own mind. There was a spiritual sense that this image did not come from me. Many years later a friend well versed in Catholic teaching told me that the Church considers one of the hallmarks of being touched by the Holy Spirit to be the sense that what you experienced came from outside of you.
This was not a big, dramatic apparition experience. Perhaps that would make it more believable to some. For the skeptics, I am not connected in any way to any promoters of Medjugorje, nor am I out for self-promotion. I have not been to Medjugorje in nearly 13 years and have not followed the progress of the apparitions for about the last 10-11 years. I have no connection at all to the visionaries, and indeed could not even tell you all of their names. I am only a substitute teacher in two school districts of California. I have no gain in telling this story, but only a desire to speak the truth of it after all these years. Yet I will testify to anyone, anywhere, at any time that the words of what I said happened to me in Tijhalina are all true and that I am 100% certain that the experience came from Our Lady and the Holy Spirit in direct connection to the events at Medjugorje. While I defer to the Church publicly and stress its insistence on holding until its final say, privately I say Medjugorje is for real, regardless of the current divisions and politics on the matter.
-- John Weldon (Jjwmail@aol.com), December 15, 2002.
Anything that offers an unhealthy interest in the enemy the devil, or offers us knowledge about the future, the afterlife or promises us things now and in heaven for me is not of God. I am very concerned at how many christian catholics are obsessed with the "jesus" of the end times and that they need a "mary" of the end times with which to fulfill god's plans.... Jesus is always present and he shares his holy spirit so that we might know the father. God is simple and uncomplicated. All these apparitions are complicated and do not give peace but a mental process that functions from a challenging negative such as the threat of a chastisement and then seeks to reward with an uplifting positive such as a miracle or a "signal grace" or a feeling of conversion!!! It may be from satan, it may not......however I think it is false religion that ultimately keeps us from living the first commandment.Thou shalt have no false images of God.....we are making christ and mary in our image.... Trust in Jesus and stay awake....live your lives..be simple..be happy.
-- andrew brocklesby (andrew_brocklesby@@hotmail.com), January 12, 2003.
Dear Jake,I feel the same way you do when, in your post, you said "this forum has lit a fire under me to start to really begin to know my faith WELL (not just so - so)."
There are times when I think of something someone has said here, (especially the experts on the faith), it makes me stop and think and examine my conscience. I am grateful for that. Until I came here, I did have some problems with my Catholic faith. Slowly I am recovering as a result of this forum and the knowledge I am acquiring here - and the 'zest' for the Catholic Church.
I would like to thank all of you for that.
MaryLu
-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 12, 2003.
Dear John Weldon,I believe you! I believe that your experience at Medjugorje was real!
When it comes to personal religious experiences, it is hard to put those experiences into words without losing something in translation.
Skeptics will always doubt experiences like you had, but you know and I know that they do happen. What surprises me is that people believe in a God that they do not see, believe in His words that were written by others over 2000 years ago, believe in the Virgin Birth - truly believe all of the unseen events....yet question and doubt when someone has had a personal revelation.
I think if I ever experienced a personal visit from Mary, I would probably not tell anyone (unless she told me to) for fear that they would not believe me...or people would think I was crazy.
I did witness something extraordinary involving crying statues. I was there, I saw it, doubted it, checked it out, and it was real. I will not go into it..but I know what I saw and what I experienced that day. Others shared the experience with me.
I wanted to tell my pastor about it, but knew that he would think I was crazy and laugh at me. He would! I just let it be and never spoke of it until this day. It is quite a story, but I will leave it rest.
Enjoy your peace!
MaryLu
-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), January 12, 2003.
t Medjugorjie has been CONDEMNED by the Catholic Church as False. The PROPERLY APPOINTED BISHOPS OF MOSTAR have declared it false and invalid. The first, Bishop Zanic, had been to many APPROVED apparitional sites, such as Lourdes, Fatima, Guadalupe, etc. He had HOPED that those six PUNKERIA (as they were known to the villagers) were indeed having true visions of the TRUE BLESSED MOTHER; but he caught them in so many lies and contradictions, that he had to uphold the true standard of the Church--which meant to tell the truth despite the hype and pressure from DISOBEDIENT PRIESTS, who, for their own monetary purposes, encouraged the six PUNKERIA TO CONTINUE THE HOAX AND THEREBY TURN MEDJUGORJIE INTO A FAT GOLDEN CALF, A MONEY-MAKING MACHINE THAT PROLIFERATES ITS OBVIOUS CONTRADICTIONS AND UNTRUTHS TO THIS DAY!!! At one time, I wanted to believe that all these stories were valid. My desire to believe it overcame, at the time, the PLETHORA OF CONTRADICTIONS AND FALLACIES that one can find in ANY PRO-MEDJUGORJIE BOOK. A careful, unbiased reader and thinker will see the truth. One who does not want to admit that he or she could have been duped, will take a while in finding the truth. But the truth is very simple, very final: Medjugorjie, and all the false "prophets" that it has spawned, from Theresa Lopez, Vassula Ryden, Estella Ruiz, Joe Reinholz, etc., etc.,is one of the gravest hoaxes in all of Church History. The Bishops of Mostar HAVE RULED ON IT. THUS, ROME HAS ALREADY SPOKEN!!!!!
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), January 30, 2003.
I agree, it has been condemned pretty clearly by three bishops in a row.That being said, I will not stand in judgment of someone who went there and was converted. God can and does visit people's hearts no matter whether they are. :-)
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), January 30, 2003.
Medjugorie may be the site of religious activity, but it does not mean it is of GOD!!!!!!!!!! Do you know that Satan can and has used the bible, the scriptures, the commandments and Mass and now the Mother of God to blind you to the truth. Nothing but 'feel-good' religious experiences happen there. If you are a good person and well intentioned, you will probably have a positive experience there. But while there, keep in mind that an incredible amount of activities, including the messages of the seers, and the confessions, baptisms, and marriages by defrocked and false priests is vigorously condemned by the local bishop. The Bishops of Mostar, like the apostles who preceded them are insulted and threatened in Christ's name. At the heart of Medjugorje is THE BIG LIE. Disobedience to proper authority is the result. Please read Genesis, Chapter 1 for more information on disobedience to God............
-- Gmo (gmo7771@aol.com), January 30, 2003.
I will remind you all again, those of you who believe in Medjugorje and those yet undecided.....THE CHURCH HAS CONDEMNED MEDUJUGORJE. Now you will ask with great disbelief... WHEN, and HOW??????? It has been condemned many times by the local bishops, including both Bishop Zanic and Bishop Peric. These Bishops are the direct link to the apostles and have been given the AUTHORITY to pronounce the apparitions as false, and not from God... There is a particularly devastating condemnation by Bishop Peric published in 1997. He enumerates many,many reasons why it is false. Also he has provided a number of excellent arguments that would allow reason alone to identify Medjugorje as false and just plain nonsense. If you are on the fence about this issue, then educate yourself about what the legal and proper church authorities have said and are saying about Medjugorje both in the past and currently. The pope does not interfere with the ruling of another Bishop concerning these types of affairs in the Bishop's home diocese. The Holy See has overruled Bishops who have approved false apparitions, but never ever has Rome overruled a condemnation of a false apparition. Rome has spoken through the local Bishop. Read the gospels of St. John and learn how church authority was established by Christ Himself, and how only the local bishop has the GOD GIVEN AUTHORITY to make FINAL JUDGEMENTS on these events. Every time I hear someone say, "I'm waiting for what Rome has to say," I cringe. I know that person is either ignorant about the Church or is a denialist....
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), January 31, 2003.
Ugh. I don't know how many times I have read that the church has condemned the events at Medjugorje. It has not. In fact the Vatican went out of its way to say the opinion of the local bishop was exactly that--his opinion. Read the summary on ewtn.com. Anyone is free to believe in the events at Medjugorje, and to go on private pilgrimage. Be at peace friend, you are free not to believe as well. Ciao.
-- jjr (withheld@nonepls.com), February 06, 2003.
The Vatican does not have to *actively* make any statement at all. The fact that they have not overruled the Bishop does NOT mean it's "just a local bishop and the Vatican hasn't decided yet". It means the local bishop has exercised his lawful authority and the Vatican supports it.
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 06, 2003.
The Church has condemned the purpoted events at Medjugorje, because the local bishop is the one to whom the Vatican gives full authority in all such cases, and the local bishops have clearly condemned the whole affair from the beginning, and directed Catholics NOT to participate. Therefore it is not true that Catholics are "free to believe in the events", and to make pilgimages there, for they do so in direct disobedience to the authority of the Church.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 06, 2003.
You simply are wrong. Anyone is free to go to Medjugorje, the local Bishop has not formally condemned Medjugojre, and at any case, it is the Yugoslav Bishops' conference of 1991 which HAS in fact formally ruled on Medjugore. Below is the 1998 text from the CONGREGATIO PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI that clearly states pilgrimmages to Medjugorje are allowed. ********************************************************************** CONGREGATIO PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI Pr. No 154/81-06419Citta del Vaticano, Palazzo del S. Uffizio May 26, 1998 To His Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry, Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion
Excellency:
In your letter of January 1, 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery several questions about the position of the Holy See and of the Bishop of Mostar in regard to the so called apparitions of Medjugorje, private pilgrimages and the pastoral care of the faithful who go there.
In regard to this matter, I think it is impossible to reply to each of the questions posed by Your Excellency. The main thing I would like to point out is that the Holy See does not ordinarily take a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena as a court of first instance. As for the credibility of the "apparitions" in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: "On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations." Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Hercegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case, and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for.
What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.
Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church.
I hope that I have replied satisfactorily at least to the principal questions that you have presented to this Dicastery and I beg Your Excellency to accept the expression of my devoted sentiments.
Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone (Secretary to the "Congregatio", presided over by Cardinal Ratzinger)
-- jjr (witheld@nonepls.net), February 07, 2003.
So what more would you need?The bishops of the country - the successors of the Apostles - unanimously declared that "it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations". That in itself would be cause for any thinking Catholic to be cautious.
But then the local bishop went even further, declaring the alleged apparitions "not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' - that is, not merely ambiguous by virtue of lack of evidence, but clearly not of a miraculous or supernatural order. The Holy See states that this is the opinon of the Ordinary of the place (the local bishop); and ALSO declares that the authority of the Ordinary of the place is to be "the court of first instance" - that is, his decision is to be obeyed unless and until a definitive ruling is made by a higher authority.
Finally, the Holy See says that pilgrimages may be made to the place, provided they are NOT regarded as authentication of the alleged events. In other words, you are free to go there in order to study the plant life or the architecture or the history of the place, but NOT because you give credence to the alleged "apparitions".
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 07, 2003.
My Dear Paul, I'm sorry, I find nothing in the letter about the bishop's role as court of first instance that you assert. Rather it says that the Bosinian Bishop's conference would be the proper body to make any further pronouncements. I am no canonist, and I assume you are not either. I intend to follow the Congregatio's position on this one. The bottom line: Pilgrimmages are permitted, the 1991 ruling stands, which neither affirms or denies supernatural involvement. Regards jjr
-- jjr (witheldthanks@none.com), February 07, 2003.
"June 21, 1983: The Virgin states: "Tell the Father Bishop (Zanic) that I request his urgent conversion to the events of the Medjugorje parish...I am sending him the penultimate warning. If he is not converted, or will not be converted, my judgment as well as that of my Son Jesus will strike him." (Seer Ivanka writing to Bishop Zanic)"Still waiting...
This 'Virgin Mary', this Medjugorje 'Mary'... she's kind of scarry. She doesn't sound like the one I am familiar with. According to the quote above, she does a little justice of her own too. That's unique.
Paul is absolutely right about the judgement of the matter belonging to the local bishop and that it rests on his authority.
If you look at the messages themselves, though, you've got enough to go on to dismiss it yourself, as some messages are clearly contradictory to doctrine of the Catholic Faith.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 07, 2003.
I don't know where those quotes come from, or their veracity. Once again, what you say about the local bishop is not in conformity to what the Congregatio has said. The fact remains that the church has in no way condemned Medjugorje. To continue to state otherwise is disingenious. Here is a quote from Vienese Cardinal Archbishop Schönborn that puts it into some sort of perspective I hope. I don't wish to debate, but I wish you all on this forum well. Wiedersehen. :))On December 1, 2002, in a catechesis given in St. Stephen’s Cathedral in Vienna, Cardinal Schönborn said the following about Medjugorje:
“I do not wish to express an opinion on Medjugorje from the point of view of a judgment of the Church. There is, however, one thing I can observe, over and over again, namely, that this is a place where an intensive mission-station of heaven obviously exists, where thousands upon thousands of people find prayer, confession, conversion, reconciliation, healing and deeper faith.”
-- jjr (witheld@none.com), February 07, 2003.
JJR, let me give you an example from an entirely different area to help you understand the Bishop's authority.Here in California, there is a Bishop Weigand who is threatening to excommunicate Governor Davis because of Davis' continued support of legalized abortion. Let's say he does so and Governor Davis appeals to the Pope. And let's say the Pope does not respond.
Now, does that mean the Pope is sympathetic with Governor Davis and is planning to overturn the Bishop's decision at some point? OR does it mean that he supports the Bishop's actions and sees no reason to get further involved?
Hint: "Silence implies consent." :-)
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 07, 2003.
Christine, you seem to misunderstand. The 1991 Bishops' Conference statement IS the official church ruling. It's really as simple as that. Whatever you say about the local ordinary is not germane. I don't know why it is so, I am not a canon lawyer. Anyway, you will continue to believe as you wish, but you really ought not to say the church has condemned it, but rather I personally don't believe it. Anyway, I see I am not supposed to use a fake address, and as I get to much junk e-mail as it is I will have to forgo further discussion. Best wishes to you all....Ciao :)
-- jjr (stillwitheldplease@none.com), February 07, 2003.
Rather than worry about apparitions, which can lead to deception or doubt, is it not better to focus on God's economy which produces faith ?
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 07, 2003.
MikeThe alleged apparition in Medjugorje is one of contravorsy. If you are a Traditionalist, you reject it while is you favor the Charismatic movement, you are in favor of it. Conservatives are split down the middle.
I am one who doesn't believe in the allege apparition. Some of the messages from the allege apparition do not follow the teaching of the Church. One such message stated that more souls go to Purgatory, then to Hell and very few go straight to Heaven. The Church has taught through Her Ordinary and Universal Magisterium that the majority of souls go to Hell. Very few souls actually make to Heaven. Even Christ says in the Scriptures that the road to Salvation is narrow.
There are many other issues with the allege apparition with its message and how the so-called visionaries have acted. There is also hearsay of other dangerous things going on with certain people associated with the alleged apparition.
Mark Trieger
-- Mark Trieger (trieger4@earthlink.net), February 08, 2003.
ChristineYour question: "Now, does that mean the Pope is sympathetic with Governor Davis and is planning to overturn the Bishop's decision at some point? OR does it mean that he supports the Bishop's actions and sees no reason to get further involved?"
Silence doesn't always means consent. Espcially when one is dealing with Rome. A good example was with the case of Fr. Feeney. The Archbishop of Boston (Cushing) and the Bishop of Boston (Wright) came down against Fr. Feeney. Fr. Feeney sent numerous letters asking the Pope and Rome to help him. The Pope and Rome stayed silent for a couple years. When Rome finally came out, they were against Fr. Feeney.
Mark
-- Mark Trieger (trieger4@earthlink.net), February 08, 2003.
Here is an interesting fact:2002, May "Who has authority to speak about this [Medjugorje] in the name of the Church?"
"During the last assembly of the Bishops of France, a question put by a member of the Conference was the subject of a written response by Msgr. H. Brincard, Bishop of Puy-en-Velay, responsible for overseeing the Association of Marian organizations. This response was made at the request of the Permanent Council. Regarding some facts having a certain repercussion, Bishop Brincard wanted solely to bring an ecclesial light, which we can hope will contribute to strengthening the unity of the People of God. Is not the Virgin Mary, Mother of the Church, in a very particular way, the servant of this unity?
It is particularly interesting to note Msgr. Brincard's observations that:
"It is therefore not correct to say that Bishop Zanic was relieved of the dossier"., and "... only the Bishops of Mostar... and the Yugoslavian Episcopal Conference (dissolved de facto... ) have expressed a judgement on the events of Medjugorje." 59 & 60
Mark
-- Mark Trieger (trieger4@earthlink.net), February 08, 2003.
So who is more authoritative, the Congregation of the Doctrine of Faith, or a Monsignor from France? The late Bishop Peric did not formally condemn Medjugorje, nor did the current Bishop Zanic. They merely expressed opinions, but took no action. The Congregatio clearly states it would be for the Bosnian Bishops's Conference to make further rulings. Each month, the message is prolaimed publicly in the Dioscese of Mostar, without it being prohibited by the Bishop. How can this be seen as being prohibited? In addition, millions of pilgrims, countless bishops, cardinals and theologians have expressed positive reactions to Medjugorje. I don't understand the vehemence of the attacks in some quarters. But be that as it may, it is nonetheless still completely lawful to both go to Medjugorje, and to read the messages.
-- jjr (onelasttime@adios.net), February 08, 2003.
Hello all..To JJR. et al, the church has condemned Medjugorje for many sound theological reasons. One doesn't even have to debate the fine points of Canon Law or juristictional authority etc. to see how the very actions of the seers and disobedient religious condemn the place.I don't want to hear about 'good fruits.' Medujugore is a cauldron of many rotten fruits also. Satan has always compromised a little good in order to achieve the greater evil. When Vicka, in apparent 'estasy' with a vision of the Blessed Mother. claims she is catching the falling baby Jesus, and she falls "backwards", come- on!!!!!!!!!!!! Has all reason left. ( A skeptical French observer had distracted her.) Everything about the seer's words and actions is an obvious lie. One, the Mother of God would not drop Jesus, two, the Mother Of God would not claim to have dropped the baby Jesus, and three, if you are reeling backward, how can you be reaching forward to catch the falling Jesus. This is an extremely well documented event, caught on two cameras. Based on this one event, a person should leave Medjugorje in the dust. St.Teresa Of Avila said if just one small detail or word is off in a 'message' from God, then, it is not of God. Lies and deceptions are obviously not of our Lord. It is unfortunate that we use our free wills to sin and follow false gods. Our very free will, allows us to be influenced by shameful nonsense. The evidence against the seers telling the truth about the apparitions if overwhelming. Perhaps, many catholics are not as spiritually mature as they thought. Medjugorje supporters are waiting for the sign, THE BIG SIGN. It will come. And when it does, how will they feel about Christ's Church, and the Apostles Descendents, the Bishops of Mostar, who have tried to warn us, convince us and explain to us that the apparitions are "NOT of GOD." When questioned once about what he saw, the seer IVAN, replied, 'I'm seeing something!' And one time, less than five minutes after being in intimate communication with the 'Mother Of God', IVAN declared, 'I'm going out for some beer and pizza.' Who can believe the seers who act with such obvious irreverence? The seers started their account of Medjugorje by telling a lie, and it will end when the MUCH BIGGER LIE that is has become, is fully revealed by the light of truth through Christ's Church.
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 08, 2003.
Beer and Pizza???!!! Oh say it isn't so!! I'm shocked snd appalled.Hee.
-- jjr (pepporni@anchovies.com), February 08, 2003.
to JJR: I wager you know nothing about the approved apparitions at AKITA, JAPAN. When Sr. Agnes was in the presence of the Virgin Apparition she was so awestruck she stayed prostrate on her knees for over an hour, (until the illuminating light had diminished.) What do you know of reverence? Yes, yes, Our Lady from 5:00 to 5:15, and beer and pizza with the guys at 5:20... WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE KIDDING???????????
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 08, 2003.
My Dear GMO,You are entitled to your opinion, but you really musn't say things that aren't so. The church has not condemned Medjugorje, which should be clear to you from the letter from the Vatican above. You have made your point, I have made mine. Let's move on. It serves no purpose to dwell on these things interminably. Pax Christi
-- jjr (happytrails@toyou.net), February 08, 2003.
to JJR: Do you know the meaning of reverence? Have you ever heard of the Approved Apparitions at AKITA, JAPAN? Have you ever heard of Sr. Agnes, and how she venerated the Blessed Virgin Mary? Quite different, I assure you than IVAN. To me you have knowledge of Catholicism, but not much of an understanding about the mystical beauty of it, and certainly little faith in the wisdom of the Church.
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 08, 2003.
My Friend GMO,All the things you say about me are true, and much worse I assure you. :) I merely make the point that it is incorrect to say the church has condemned Medjugorje. Please see the above quote of the Cardinal Archbishop of Vienna, a much better source than me. All the best to you and all on this forum. C ya! Hvalien Isus y Maria!
-- jjr (arrivederci@ciao.com), February 08, 2003.
You seem to equate the idea of the Church condemning something with the idea of the Vatican directly issuing a statement of condemnation. No, the Vatican has not issued any proclamation of condemnation, since, as stated in your own post, that is never the approach the Vatican takes on such matters. Rather, the Vatican identifies the local ordinary (the Bishop of the area) as the designated authority. The Bishop then makes the direct decisions relative to the matter at hand - not by his personal authority alone, but under the delegated authority of the Vatican, specific to the matter at hand. Thus, when the Bishop issues a proclamation, it is as binding as if it came directly from the Vatican itself; and the only thing that could overrule him would be a direct statement from the Vatican, which the Vatican would provide if it disagreed with the local Bishop. There are literally hundreds of supposed apparitions and other supposedly spiritual phenomena reported every year. Most of them, thankfully, do not achieve the notoriety of Medjugorje; however, the sheer volume of false apparitions and other such claimed events necessitates dealing with such matters on a local level. As for Medjugorje, the vatican has had many years in which to voice any scepticism concerning the decisions of the multiple Bishops who have condemned these so-called apparitions. It has not done so. The Vatican has done nothing to indicate any disagreement with the condemnations unanimously declared by the various Bishops involved. Any Catholic who sincerely seeks the truth cannot ignore such pointed indications of the falsehood of the Medjugorje nonsense. And any Catholic who places his own desires or opinions before the truth provided by the Church needs to get his priorities in order.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 08, 2003.
My friend, you are simply wrong, and you won't admit it. The Bishops' conference did not condemn Medjugorje. It is available many places on line. Did you read the Congregatio's letter? It said that events are ongoing, and that further evidence must be submitted. The 1991 conference ruled 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' it did not rule 'constat de non supernaturalitate'. I have made no statement of my personal beliefs in the matter. I completely accept the 1991 ruling, which I wonder if you have even read? Ah well, you will believe what you want despite the evidence apparently.
-- jjr (hmmm@gfsg.com), February 08, 2003.
to JJR: You persist in your spiritual blindness at your soul's immortal risk. Thank you for being the perfect example, - for when I need to remind myself that posessing the truth is a grace in itself.
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 08, 2003.
To Paul: It is sometimes very tiresome dealing with a wall like JJR. JJR is a broken record, saying nothing new, only repeating the same denials. JJR exhibits blindness to the truth. An inability to see it when it is before his eyes. I will pray that he may see.
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 09, 2003.
You know its funny, I simply made a simple statement of fact, and yet have been attacked as lacking faith, putting my opinions before truth etc. etc. etc. I've said not one word about what I think, or how I personally view the apparitions. Why the ad hominem attacks?The simple truth could be answered by a non-Catholic, or even someone with no faith at all. Has the church, either local bishop, local bishops' conference or Rome ever made a ruling saying the events at Medjugorje are not supernatural? The answer is no.
-- jjr (cest@lavie.net), February 09, 2003.
Bishop Peric, in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", specifically declared: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje".
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 09, 2003.
Paul, I have read some of your other responses here, you seem like a well infomred guy, but really you are wrong on this one. What the bishop says in a letter to someone is not the same as declaring publically and formally this apparition is false and forbidding it in his diocese. He hasn't done that, and the messages are still publically proclaimed each month. The above letter from the Congregatio should show you an official declaration of the status. I don't mind if you have problems with the apparitions, that's your perogative, but you must condede the point that they have not been 'condemned' or declared in error in any official way. In fact the reality of why the Bishops' conference was given juristiction in the first place should give one pause. When the local bishop wanted to declare it invalid, Rome overuled and had the Bishops' conference make the investigation. Why would they step in, when usually they wouldn't?It's not a matter of opinion, but of public record that no there has been no official condemnation of Medjugorje, even opponents must admit that. My guess is you were simply uniformed of the facts, and repeated what you had heard elsewhere. If the Archbishop of Vienna, and countless others (including the pope,in several reports from credible people) can find positive things to say, don't you think you should tread a little more lightly before charging in saying it is false?
-- jjr (okigiveup@byeall.com), February 09, 2003.
To GMO - lighten up dude. I think you spend too much time on these matters of apparitions. JJR has only been stating that the vatican made no official declaration either way.JJR did not repeatedly express his opinions on the authenticity of the apparitions which you seem to be doing. Furthermore, you say that his soul is at risk because of his spiritual blindness ? I think you have a pretty radical concept of salvation. Anyway, I hope u can show your brother in Christ more love, otherwise my friend, your words will only spread death.
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 10, 2003.
JJR, it is also my understanding the Church has not yet officially, definitively ruled on events that have taken place in Medjugorje and therefore has not condemned them.While Paul is correct in stating that the local ordinaries (Bishops in this case) are the recognized spokesmen for the Church, I don’t believe the Bishops’ comments to date were “official” and given with the full support of the Church.
JJR, I enclose a letter (obtained from the EWTN website) from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith to a Bishop outlining the Church’s position on Medjugorje and which I believe, supports your position:
LETTER TO BISHOP GILBERT AUBRYCongregation for the Doctrine of the Faith The following letter is provided for the purpose of an accurate understanding of the status of Medjugorje as of May 1998, and not as an endorsement or statement on EWTN's part, either in favor or against. This translation of the original text should be considered unofficial. CONGREGATIO PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI Pr. No 154/81-05922 Citta del Vaticano, Palazzo del S. Uffizio May 26, 1998 To His Excellency Mons. Gilbert Aubry, Bishop of Saint-Denis de la Reunion Excellency: In your letter of January 1, 1998, you submitted to this Dicastery several questions about the position of the Holy See and of the Bishop of Mostar in regard to the so called apparitions of Medjugorje, private pilgrimages and the pastoral care of the faithful who go there. In regard to this matter, I think it is impossible to reply to each of the questions posed by Your Excellency. The main thing I would like to point out is that the Holy See does not ordinarily take a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena as a court of first instance. As for the credibility of the "apparitions" in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: "On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations." Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia-Hercegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case, and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for. What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of "Famille Chretienne", declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only 'non constat de supernaturalitate,' but likewise, 'constat de non supernaturalitate' of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion. Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentification of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church. I hope that I have replied satisfactorily at least to the principal questions that you have presented to this Dicastery and I beg Your Excellency to accept the expression of my devoted sentiments. Archbishop Tarcisio Bertone Secretary
JJR, Medjugorje is a very touchy topic at present among Catholics. I am sorry you were treated uncharitably by some of the participants in this forum. I would draw everyone’s attention to a recent remark made by Colin B. Donovan of EWTN when discussing Medjugorje and the range of emotions it draws from individuals, who paraphrased St. Augustine by saying, “In necessary things unity, in undecided things freedom, and in all things charity.” :-)
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 10, 2003.
Thanks Ed, and I think we could all agree with St. Augustine. :) PAX
-- jjr (byenow@cya.net), February 10, 2003.
The Bishop of Mostar IS THE PROPERLY APPOINTED AUTHORITY, HAS NEVER BEEN AND WILL NEVER BE OVER-RULED, AND HAS UNEQUIVOCALLY STATED THAT THE MEDJUGORJE PHENOMENA ARE NOT FROM GOD!!! THE FALSE "PROPHETS" DISOBEDIENT PRIESTS, AND SCANDALS THAT IT HAS PROVOKED IN THE CHURCH HAVE NOT EDIFIED THE CHURCH, BUT RATHER, UNLIKE FATIMA, GUADALUPE, LOURDES, AKITA, AND OTHER APPROVED APPARITIONAL SITES--HAS LED TO GREAT DIVISION AND SPIRITUAL CONFUSION--ALWAYS THE MARK OF SATAN. THE SEERS OF MEDJUGORJE CONTRADICT THEMSELVES OVER AND OVER AGAIN. When I used to go to local conferences and read all of the books out on that phenomena, I myself was blinded by the desire to believe it all--EVEN WHEN I WOULD HEAR A PARTICULAR SEER CONTRADICT HERSELF OR MAKE A STATEMENT THAT WAS OPPOSITE TO WHAT OUR LADY SAID AT FATIMA. Later, I discovered that people traveling to Medjugorje had literally been blinded by staring into the sun; and so many persons travel back and forth for a razzle dazzle show that will give them FALSE PEACE-- IT IS FALSE, BECAUSE IT DOES NOT ORIGINATE FROM HEAVEN!!!!!!! Serious readers and thinkers will find numerous contradictions in any PRO-MEDJUGORJE book that they take time to read carefully. God does not ask a Catholic to suspend his or her intellect in a search for truth. I finally decided, after so many years of desiring the Medjugorje hoax to be real, to sift through ALL the evidence presented by the long-suffering, YET ONLY CORRECTLY APPOINTED AUTHORITY, THE BISHOP OF MOSTAR--THE NOW DECEASED BISHOP ZANIC--MAY HIS SOUL REST IN THE ETERNAL PEACE AND LOVE OF CHRIST--AND THE CURRENT BISHOP PERIC--MAY HE REMAIN STRONG AMID THE TRIAL--AND I DISCOVERED HOW THE TRUTH IS OBFUSCATED BY THOSE WHO WRITE BOOKS AND/OR HAVE "VISIONS" TO PLEASE THE CROWDS FOR THE SOLE PURPOSE OF MAKING MONEY. THEY WILL NOT LISTEN TO THE PROPER AUTHORITY OR LOOK AT THE ISSUE FROM ANY OBJECTIVE ANGLE--PRIDE AND MONEY ARE POWERFUL MOTIVES!! NO ONE LIKES TO ADMIT THAT HE OR SHE COULD HAVE BEEN DUPED. BUT SATAN IS SMARTER THAN THE SMARTEST MAN ON EARTH. TO THOSE WHO HAVE EARS, LISTEN!! DO NOT BE FOOLED BY THE SPIRIT OF CONFUSION. WHEN YOUR PROPERLY APPOINTED BISHOP WARNS YOU OF SPIRITUAL DANGER, WHEN HE TELLS YOU ANYTHING THAT DOES NOT GO AGAINST CATHOLIC MORAL TEACHING OR THE BASIC TENETS OF THE FAITH, IT IS CHRIST WHO IS SAYING IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YOU WISH TO FOLLOW IVAN, OR MIRJANA, OR ONE OF THE MYRIAD PROFITEERING OFFSHOOTS,LIKE THERSA LOPEZ, YOU DO SO AT YOUR OWN PERIL! THE REAL MOTHER OF GOD WILL NOT "THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING" TO THESE FALSE "CALLS!"
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 10, 2003.
Emerald,I do not understand what you are waiting for. Are you saying you Demand a sign as proof of Our Lady at Medjugorje? Your comments about Our Lady being scary, don't you think if your words were not being adherd to you'd become a little scary too, to light a fire under your people. The very people you want to be saved from the fires of hell.
The requests of Our Lady are not being met. She has asked for Russia to be consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart. The pope only consecreted the world to Her Heart, not Russia. She never asked for the world to be consecrated, just Russia. And what do you say about the fact that She said to release the 3rd secret by 1960. Ya right, like that happened.
What about when our Lady says ". . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved." Yap, sounds like She'll be using Her justice.
"In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph." This was said how many years ago, and yet you rarely hear about devotion to Her Immaculate Heart, or His Sacred Heart for that matter. And when was the last time you heard anything from the "official voice" about the first 5 saturdays????
Tu-shey! boink right back at ya buddy! and while we're at it, how about a SHA-ZAM!!
Peace be with you Emerald.
-- Choas (choas@ivillage.com), February 11, 2003.
"I do not understand what you are waiting for. Are you saying you Demand a sign as proof of Our Lady at Medjugorje?"No no, not at all. I'm not waiting for anything really; I'm just saying the apparition at Medjugorje, whether there is one or not, is not authentic as it contradicts certain principles of Faith.
"Your comments about Our Lady being scary..."
I mean the "Our Lady" of Medjugorje that talks about wielding justice by her own hand. That's not the usually or even the possible imagery.
But Fatima is good stuff. Do you mean in some cases to refer to Our Lady of Fatima? Because I'm all over that one; if that's the one you mean, then:
"The requests of Our Lady are not being met."
Exactly.
"She has asked for Russia to be consecrated to Her Immaculate Heart."
Right!
"The pope only consecreted the world to Her Heart, not Russia. She never asked for the world to be consecrated, just Russia."
Sure does seem that way, doesn't it?
"And what do you say about the fact that She said to release the 3rd secret by 1960. Ya right, like that happened."
I know. That is somewhat disconcerting, I would say.
"What about when our Lady says ". . . Pray very much the prayers of the Rosary. I alone am able still to save you from the calamities which approach. Those who place their confidence in me will be saved." Yap, sounds like She'll be using Her justice."
Well, not justice, because that comes from God. I think she is referencing her role in mediatrix, in appealing to the Father by the blood of Christ on the Cross, and through that sacrifice, to appease the justice of God. Mary & Jesus, mercy... God the Father, justice.
""In the end My Immaculate Heart will triumph." This was said how many years ago, and yet you rarely hear about devotion to Her Immaculate Heart, or His Sacred Heart for that matter. And when was the last time you heard anything from the "official voice" about the first 5 saturdays????"
It will triumph in the end, but the justice is forthcoming. We don't hear the Saint Michael prayer of Pope Leo XIII anymore at Mass either. Bummer...
"Tu-shey! boink right back at ya buddy! and while we're at it, how about a SHA-ZAM!!"
Friendly fire! Call off the friendly fire! lol. Hey, if you mean Fatima, I'm all with you. As Mary brought Christ into the world the first time, so will she do the same in the end.
I think Medjugorje is not the continuation of Fatima as is often thought, but might even be meant to obscure the message of Fatima. But again, the Deposit of the Faith is the acid test; may it be a light for you in dark places, when all other lights go out.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 11, 2003.
Aaaahhh, Emerald. A little Galadriel for us, eh? True fan, here.Chaos,
What Emerald has been trying to say is this, much of what the 'seers' claim Mary has said is totally contrary to Mary as defined by the Church and some things are totally contrary to dogma. She is Co-Redemtrix and Mediatrix of all graces. Mary does not wield justice. Only God wields the justice of Heaven. In fact, Our Lady said at Fatima that 'I cannot hold back the hand of my Son much longer.' Therefore saying it was because of her that the justice of her Son was delayed. Not that it was her that would wield justice.
Yes, you bring up great points about Fatima, I am all with you there. And the justice of God will be forthcoming, because of the unheeded requests by His Mother. We may all then say that we wish we did not live to see such times. But......"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All they have to decide is what to do with the time that is given them."
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), February 11, 2003.
I still am having a difficult time understand just exactly what you think is contradictory to our faith. Please give me at least one specific example. From what I've read here you are just taking certain parts of what Our Lady has said to the seers out of context and saying it goes against tradition and dogma. What exactly do you find wrong with what Our Lady has said to the seers and why?Afterall, Our Lady did say at Fatima: "Only I can help you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God."
Emerald, no gloves are on. I just think your additions of funny sounding words are hysterical! Reminds me of watching old Batman shows and reading them bring huge smiles of memories gone bye:)
Peace & Love
-- Choas (choas@ivillage.com), February 12, 2003.
Hi Choas; I did exactly that in one thread a while back, but I can't find it; if I can't find it eventually, I'll try to do it again sometime soon.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 13, 2003.
Good morning Emerald. I do hope you find the thread as I'd like to read it. I know what you mean when having difficulty finding a past thread, I've been looking for the new mysteries of light thread for 3 days and no luck. If you run across it please send it up. Thanks!Peace
-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), February 13, 2003.
I can't find it Choas. I'll try it again soon but can't right away because of stuff I need to do here.What usually works well, is go to Google and put in your own email (if you had participated in the thread) and a couple keywords, but don't forget to hit the button that allows you to see all the omitted results; big difference.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 13, 2003.
What I have seen in many of the responses after my post a while back is, with all due respect, quite sad. It reiterates the point to me that theological legalism is not the property of Protestants alone, who I often find making quite ridiculous and illogical arguments regarding Biblical interpretation. I would wager that virtually all of the anti-Medjugorje arguments and stories have a counter-opinion to them or facts to clarify them. Just one case in point: the idea that Satan is appearing in Medjugorje. Actually, yes, Satan has appeared there. I saw recently on an anti-Medjugorje site an account of this where a picture was painted that Satan appeared with Mary's clothing but his own face, and that this was some sort of accident and he soon came back with Mary's face. Left out of the account, of course, was the fact that the visionaries had recognized and rebuked the deception, whereupon the real Mary then appeared. They recognized it because Satan, in the disguise of Mary, had told them to follow him, and they knew Mary would not say to follow her in place of Jesus.Some I suppose would say that my account of a mental vision in Medjugorje might have been Satan. For that I need to tell another story, and forgive me for the detail but it is necessary to show I was not crazy. It was 1983 in Southern California. My brother was in his first year of high school, and my family went on a school- sponsored one-day trip across the border to Mexico. My brother was then under the influence of such things as heavy metal rock music and was not religious at all. When the trip was ending my mother asked us if we wanted anything bought, and he asked for a painting he saw of the Devil. To my shock, my parents actually bought it and put it up in his room.
Every day after that I felt a spiritual coldness every time I went into the room. One night, when my brother was watching television in my room and I wanted some sleep, I decided to sleep in his room. There were two piles of clothes on the floor that went unnoticed at first. I shut off the light, and dim light from outside came in and illuminated the clothes. I began to feel the evil coldness in the room again. What followed is hard to put into words. I turned to face the clothes, which changed into the form of a dead man and woman lying in state. I turned away, only to hear a Satanic, dragon-like voice call out "Jaaaannnnnnn!!!!!!!!" ("John", only corrupted). Horrified beyond belief, I did the only thing I could do: clasp my hands together and pray "Our Father...". Immediately the evil presence seemed itself to get scared and it vanished. A new, warm, loving presence (angelic, I believe) came in and protected me through the night. A year later that painting was destroyed by my own hand in a different, non-supernatural story, but it never had the power it had before.
The voice I heard (a real, audible sound) made a sound that cannot be imitated by people, animals, nature, or machines. It was a sound that does not exist on Earth. Also, the evil was of such pure intensity that it does not exist in the physical universe. I believe it was Satan himself, because I distinctly felt that it answered to no other evil authority but was in command. The experience was not any personal psychosis of mine, because when one has a mental problem of hearing voices, one hears them repeatedly. Psychoses are not a one-night stand involving a single word.
That was in 1984. My experience with Mary was seven years later. I have a bit of personal experience in judging Satanic appearances, and what I felt in Tijhalina was NOT of Satanic origin. To say that Medjugorje is is to imitate the Protestants in their fundamentalist legalism, to ignore the basic logic of the messages (i.e., that all of God's people are equal in His eyes and that He may honor their prayers [why not, if even a human parent would accept an imperfect gift from an unknowing but sincere child?), and to bow to politics in the matter.
If people want to know whether or not the Church allows for pilgrimages to Medjgorje, there is one famous bishop who many years ago encouraged people to go, if it strengthened their faith and made them pray. His name is Pope John Paul II.
And BTW, my brother is much reformed since 20 years ago, though he still isn't greatly religious!
-- John Weldon (Jjwmail@aol.com), February 15, 2003.
I only know one person who can pull up those old threads in a flash and that is David...
-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 15, 2003.
Would that be the same John Paul II who refused to visit Medjugorje himself a few years ago, when he was in the immediate neighborhood, but instead visited an approved shrine a few miles away?
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 15, 2003.
Yes, that would be the same Pope who refused to visit Medjugorje, the same John Paul II, who appointed Bishop Peric, the successor to Bishop Zanic, and one whom this Holy Father knew then, and knows now to be steadfast, honest, and strong, amidst all the pressure to legitimize a site that has yielded confusion, contradiction, physical and spiritual blindness, and "messages" more banal and trite than your average commercial. The six "seers" do not see the Virgin on their birthdays; they are not in communication with anything heavenly; and they contradict themselves endlessly in their spiels about the end times. They are lying, or, even worse, so deluded, that they have come to believe their own delusions. Who knows what they are really seeing--but any true Catholic who makes an attempt to think, read, listen, and pray carefully, will know that it is not and can not be the Mother of God. Perhaps Satan induces certain forms of schizophrenia, or perhaps when someone continues a great falsehood long enough, he or she begins to lose touch with truth, with reality. Whatever the case, their primrose path is filled with the weeds of contradictions and false prophets. The origin of the Medjugorje phenomenom is steeped in the fat golden calf of disobedience, pride, falsehood, materialism, and spiritual confusion. THE TRUE MOTHER OF GOD WILL NOT "THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING" TO ITS "CALL!!!!!"
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 17, 2003.
I 100% agree with you GMO.
-- JA (ja90@hotmail.com), February 17, 2003.
Contrary to implications made above, the fact that Pope John Paul II hasn't visited Medjugorje in an official capacity simply means the Church has not yet provided Her approval to the apparitions taking place.I wasn't going to post this long commentary by Colin Donovan of EWTN about Medjugorje but it might help those who want and clear understanding of the Church's position:
(beginning) This answer is not intended as an exhaustive history, an attempt to settle allegations or open questions, much less to judge the authenticity of the apparitions.] History. On June 24, 1981, six children in the town of Medjugorje, Yugoslavia (today, Bosnia-Herzegovina), began to experience phenomena which they alleged to be apparitions of the Blessed Virgin Mary. This apparition had a message of peace for the world, as well as a call to conversion, prayer and fasting. It also entrusted to the children secret messages about events to be fulfilled in the future. These "secrets," confided individually to different visionaries, have not been revealed to the public. The apparitions themselves have continued almost daily since 1981, with some of the now young adults continuing to experience them regularly (those who have not yet received all the secrets intended for them) and others not. Originally they occurred on a hilltop near the town where a large Cross commemorating the Redemption exists. They have since occurred in many other places, including the parish church, St. James, and wherever the visionaries happen to be located at the time of the apparition.
The news that Our Lady might be appearing immediately began to attract pilgrims to Medjugorje, first from the surrounding countryside, and then, despite the communist government of that day, from Europe and the whole world. These included clergy and theologians, as well as experts from the physical and medical sciences who testified to some kind of phenomenon taking place when the apparition was said to be occurring. The private judgement of these early visitors did much to bolster people's belief in the events at Medjugorje. In addition, some pilgrims reported seeing the sun spin and being able to look at it without pain or eye damage, others that their rosaries turned gold colored, still others that remarkable physical or spiritual/moral healings had taken place. All of these contributed to the fame of the alleged apparition.
Ecclesiastical Evaluation. The initial, informal, response of the Bishop Zanic of Mostar, in whose diocese Medjugorje is found, is said to have been favorable. However, it is alleged that comments attributed to the vision that was critical of the secular clergy and himself convinced him the visions could not be authentic. He nonetheless established a commission in 1982, comprised of theologians, scientific experts and religious superiors to investigate the Medjugorje events. Its three year study produced a vote from two members of the commission in favor of supernaturality, one that it was authentic initially but no longer so, one abstention and eleven votes that nothing supernatural was occurring there.
Since the Medjugorje events had exceeded the scope of a local event, Cardinal Kuharic, President of the Yugoslavian Bishops Conference, announced in January 1987 that a national commission would be established to continue investigating. This decision had been communicated to the Holy See, which stated that it accepted the judgement of the diocesan commission under the authority of the local bishop but urged, as well, that the work be continued at the national level. The Bishops' Conference's instructions to the faithful were that pilgrimages should not be organized to Medjugorje on the basis of its being supernatural and that the Marian devotion of Catholics should be in accordance with Church teaching. In April 1991 the following declaration was made by the Bishops' Conference of the former Yugoslavia:
The bishops, from the very beginning, have been following the events of Medjugorje through the Bishop of the diocese [Mostar], the Bishop's Commission and the Commission of the Bishops Conference of Yugoslavia on Medjugorje.
On the basis of the investigations so far it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations. [emphasis added]
However, the numerous gatherings of the faithful from different parts of the world, who come to Medjugorje, prompted both by motives of belief and various other motives, require the attention and pastoral care in the first place of the diocesan bishop and with him of the other bishops also, so that in Medjugorje and in everything connected with it a healthy devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary may be promoted in accordance with the teaching of the Church.
For this purpose the bishops will issue specially suitable liturgical-pastoral directives. Likewise, through their Commission they will continue to keep up with and investigate the entire event in Medjugorje.
From the point of view of an ecclesiastical evaluation the status of Medjugorje has not changed since this 1991 declaration. The Holy See has allowed this status to remain as it is. Responding to bishops on the matter it simply repeats the aforementioned decision. However, a response from the Secretary of the Doctrinal Congregation, Archbishop Bertone, to a French bishop in 1996 precipitated a flurry of reports that Medjugorje was off-limits to Catholics. In August 1996 the Director of the Holy See's Press Office, Dr. Joaquin Navarro-Valls, stated:
You cannot say people cannot go there until it has been proven false. This has not been said, so anyone can go if they want.
...When one reads what Archbishop Bertone wrote, one could get the impression that from now on everything is forbidden, no possibility [for Catholics to travel to Medjugorje] ... nothing has changed, nothing new has been said.
...The problem is if you systematically organize pilgrimages, organize them with the bishop and the Church, you are giving a canonical sanction to the facts of Medjugorje. This is different from people going in a group who bring a priest with them in order to go to confession.
...Has the church or the Vatican said no [to Catholics visiting Medjugorje]? NO. ... The difference, in the terms of canon law, is that an official pilgrimage, organized by the diocese with the bishop, is a way of giving a juridical sanction to the facts; you are saying this is true. CNS Report.
More recently in a letter to the Bishop of St. Denis, Archbishop Bertone commented on a statement by the current Bishop of Mostar that the alleged apparitions were not simply lacking evidence of supernaturality but were in fact NOT supernatural (i.e. definitively so). He stated:
The main thing I would like to point out is that the Holy See does not ordinarily take a position of its own regarding supposed supernatural phenomena as a court of first instance. As for the credibility of the "apparitions" in question, this Dicastery respects what was decided by the bishops of the former Yugoslavia in the Declaration of Zadar, April 10, 1991: "On the basis of the investigations so far, it can not be affirmed that one is dealing with supernatural apparitions and revelations." Since the division of Yugoslavia into different independent nations it would now pertain to the members of the Episcopal Conference of Bosnia- Herzegovina to eventually reopen the examination of this case, and to make any new pronouncements that might be called for.
What Bishop Peric said in his letter to the Secretary General of FamilleChretienne, declaring: "My conviction and my position is not only non constat de supernaturalitate, but likewise, constat de non supernaturalitate of the apparitions or revelations in Medjugorje", should be considered the expression of the personal conviction of the Bishop of Mostar which he has the right to express as Ordinary of the place, but which is and remains his personal opinion.
Finally, as regards pilgrimages to Medjugorje, which are conducted privately, this Congregation points out that they are permitted on condition that they are not regarded as an authentication of events still taking place and which still call for an examination by the Church. Letter to Bishop Aubrey
Mystical Phenomena. The presence of remarkable phenomena is for many sufficient evidence of the validity of an alleged apparition. For others the judgement by local Church authority that there is no evidence of supernaturality at a site suggests fraud, mental illness or the demonic. The Church for her part, however, takes great care before affirming the certain supernaturality or non-supernaturality of phenomena, as the Roman statements given above show. There are likewise few examples of outright condemnation. When they do occur it is usually on the basis of doctrine which is contrary to the faith.
The reasons for such caution are rooted in the Church's common teaching. St. Thomas Aquinas and St. John of the Cross both assert that as a general rule mystical phenomena (whether in the lives of saints or in apparitions) are the work of the angels. Unless God Himself needs to act to immediately produce an effect (such as to create out of nothing or to infuse sanctifying grace into the soul), He works through creaturely instruments. Thus the intellectual lights granted in contemplative prayer, the visions and locutions of private revelations, the levitations of the saints, the ecstasies of mystics and visionaries, and most external phenomena associated with mysticism, are produced by the angelic nature. Since both good and evil spirits possess the angelic nature the presence of such phenomena alone is an equivocal sign of authenticity. This means that a great deal of unexplained phenomena can occur without indicating positively that the event is from God. This is why the Church looks, among other things, for evident supernaturality, that is, for effects beyond the ability of men or angels which can be attributed to God alone.
Theologians remain divided in judging which phenomena fall clearly into the category of strict supernaturality. However, the practice of the Church in the canonization process of recognizing as miraculous those cures which meet certain strict criteria is a standard that has been applied in approving apparitions, as well (e.g. Lourdes, Beauraing, Banneux). At Fátima the Miracle of Sun likewise fell into the category of a natural prodigy. It is clear, however, that the phenomena which many laity have experienced in connection with alleged apparitions in our days, and which they consider to be proof that they are authentic, do not in fact rise to the level of evident supernaturality. Angelic or demonic activity would be sufficient to explain them. Without a proof of the supernatural order there is little likelihood of the Church affirming an apparition as authentic.
In the case of Medjugorje the commissions found that nothing directly connected with the apparition met this strict standard. As the earlier quoted statements show, the Church remains open to new evidence of supernaturality should it occur and has not judged that Medjugorje is NOT supernatural, much less condemned it.
What the Church has forbidden. From the statements given to date by ecclesiastical authorities it is clear that no one holding an office in the Church (bishop, pastor, rector, chaplain or other) may by virtue of that office lend official sanction to activities which tend to assert the supernaturality of Medjugorje, that is, to contradict the decisions made by competent local authority. Those statements speak only of pilgrimages organized under official auspices; however, common sense tells us that a conference or other activity sponsored by a diocese, parish or other Catholic institution would also be prohibited. Likewise, there could not be public veneration (cultus) of the Blessed Virgin under the title of Our Lady of Medjugorje, since this would suggest the certainty of her appearing there. The title Queen of Peace, however, is already part of the patrimony of the Church. The Yugoslavian statement speaks of liturgical-pastoral directives which may be developed. Catholics would be obliged to obey whatever positive or negative directives the Bishops' Conference or the local bishop issued regarding the site.
Do the decisions of the Church amount to an obligation to believe in the intellect that Medjugorje is not supernatural? The answer is no. First, even private revelations approved by Rome bind the faithful to accept them only based upon reasonableness, not faith. Pope Benedict XIV stated, Although an assent of Catholic faith may not be given to revelations thus approved, still, an assent of human faith, made according to the rules of prudence, is due them; for according to these rules such revelations are probable and worthy of pious credence. [Benedict XIV, De Serv. Dei Beatif.]
This means that once a private revelation has achieved Papal approbation it is unreasonable, i.e. imprudent but not against the faith, to not accept it as authentic. The contrary would also be true. If Rome judged a private revelation to not be supernatural, the reasonable person would be satisfied with that conclusion. Would they sin if they did not accept it? They might sin by imprudence, rash judgement or the like, but not against the faith or the obedience they owed the Holy Father. Catholics must always, however, following the external precepts imposed by the Church in such matters, that is, what they may or may not do, as opposed to what they think.
As far as theological judgements made at the local level, therefore, the standard could not be any higher, and is certainly lower. The issue of Medjugorje, therefore, cannot be resolved solely on the basis of the local Church's finding that there is no evidence to date of supernaturality. This is even more clear in light of the statement of Archbishop Bertone that the Bishop of Mostar's 1998 statement that it is certainly "not supernatural" is his own personal opinion. Others are therefore entitled to their personal opinions, also.
What the Church permits. As the already cited statements note, Catholics may go to Medjugorje. Such pilgrimages may even include priests acting as chaplains, as opposed to officially sponsoring them. Also, the Church has not suppressed discussion of Medjugorje, therefore, it is allowed. Common sense, however, says that Catholics on both sides of the Medjugorje issue should exercise prudence and charity in speaking of others who believe differently. Medjugorje is not a litmus test of orthodoxy, though every Catholic will have a moral obligation to accept the judgement of Rome, in the manner Pope Benedict explained, should it ever be rendered.
St. Augustine probably gave the simpliest and most helpful rule for all matters of the Church's life when he said (in my paraphrase):
In necessary things unity, in undecided things freedom, and in all things charity. (end)
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 18, 2003.
My opening sentence above should have included the word "apparent" lest I give anyone the impession that I made my decision as to the authenticity of the apparitions. I should have read as follows:"Contrary to implications made above, the fact that Pope John Paul II hasn't visited Medjugorje in an official capacity simply means the Church has not yet provided Her approval to the APPARENT apparitions taking place."
Sorry for the confusion.
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 18, 2003.
One is not supposed to go to Medjugorje as a PILGRIM who believes that these apparitions or six false "visionaries" are VALID IN ANY CONTEXT. The Bishops of Mostar HAVE RULED THAT THE VISIONS AND MESSAGES ARE NOT FROM GOD!!!! The Evil Spirit of Confusion reigns as we see bishop against bishop, priest against priest, and laity against laity on this phenomenom. The hype and publicity in favor of Medjugorje is numerous and rises from numerous sources because it began and continues to reign as the fat golden calf, the false idol that many profiteers want to proliferate for their own venal purposes. Catholic organizations that seem conservative sometimes cancel appearances by Ivan, because he can't keep his stories straight, anymore. But they continue to promote Medjugorje because they have sold out--MONEY IS ALWAYS A POWERFUL WORLDLY MOTIVE!!! Furthermore, certain writers who bank a fancy monetary account off of this falsity, will instruct the reader to reject Theresa Lopez, since the local Bishop of a diocese in Colorado adjudged her "visions" as not originating from heaven--or they will instruct one that Joe Reinholz was caught copying his purported "messages" out of a book, and so, to reject him--but they do not include the same information available, now, in solid wellsprings of valid, credible sources, written by those few persons who discovered and ACCEPTED the truth about Medjugorje and shared it with the world: and that truth is, and remains, that THE BISHOPS OF MOSTAR CONDEMNED IT AS A FALSE APPARITION NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE OR ARE BAD, BUT BECAUSE AS THE PROPERLY APPOINTED SPIRITUAL AUTHORITIES, THEY WOULD NOT SELL OUT TO THE DISOBEDIENT PRIESTS AND CROWDS OF PERSONS DEMANDING A SIGN. THEY HAVE BEEN MALIGNED IN HOLLYWOOD MOVIES THAT HAVE RAISED THE SCANDALOUS, VOW-BREAKING,DISOBEDIENT JOZO ZOVKO TO THE STATUS OF A SAINT--THEY HAVE BEEN, MUCH LIKE THE WRITERS WHO VISITED THEM, GOT TO KNOW THEM, AND LOOKED AT THIS ISSUE FROM A SOLE DESIRE TO SEEK TRUTH, AND NOT SENSATIONALISTIC RAZZLE-DAZZLE "SIGNS"--THREATENED AND, IN SOME CASES, EVEN BEATEN. Even that cross on Apparition Hill is a mere cross and not a crucifix--remember that part in the Gospels, when the Crowd is yelling at Our Savior to COME DOWN FROM THAT CROSS-- SHOW US A SIGN, WE WANT A SIGN!!! These Bishops, as the direct spiritual descendants of Our Lord, are the ones bearing the CRUCIFIX IN CHRIST'S NAME. The writers who lost their readership because they would NOT get on the monetary bandwagon, in many ways are the ones bearing the CRUCIFIX IN CHRIST'S NAME. Those persons who discover and see the Evil One as the prime propogator of all this confusion and hate towards the Bishops--and who try to correct friends or family members--are the ones bearing the Crucifix. Medjugorje can keep its Christless Cross. In the end, it derives from the Father of Lies. He will always throw in enough truth to snare and entrap persons of faith, or persons vulnerable due to life's challenges and a consequent weakened faith. IT IS HARD TO LIVE THE FAITH THE WAY CHRIST WANTS US TO!!!!! HE NEVER SAID IT WOULD BE EASY. The Rotted Fruits of Medjugorje, the false, would-be "prophets" who visited the site, and returned to propogate their own "visions" and books, are so numerous that one can barely keep track of it all, anymore. God has blessed me with a few precious gifts. Never would I dream of writing about them on my own or speaking even ONE time at ANY CONFERENCE ANYWHERE, about them. I won't write about them, here; and, because I try to follow Catholic Teaching on these sorts of things, I even try not to think too much about them. Why? Because PRIDE is ALSO A POWERFUL MOTIVE. Because True Mystics such as St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila warn us against dwelling on these gifts. Because we see through the EXAMPLE of TRUE SAINTS AND VISIONARIES humility and OBEDIENCE. Only at the request of their properly appointed Superiors, did they write down their experiences. St Sister Faustina, whose Divine Mercy Vison and Chaplet finally got approval, made the comment, at the time that God WANTS US FIRST TO BE OBEDIENT-HE WANTS US FIRST TO BE HUMBLE. The One True and HOLY ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH, THE ONLY ONE STARTED IN YEAR 33, BY ITS FOUNDER, OUR LORD JESUS CHRIST, MUST COME BEFORE ALL ELSE. St. Sister Faustina said that Our Lord loved her Obedience, wanted her humble Obedience, first--that HE WAS MUCH MORE PLEASED WITH HER HUMILITY AND OBEDIENCE TO HIS PROPERLY APPOINTED SONS, HIS BISHOPS--BECAUSE EVEN THE CHAPLET THAT HE GAVE HER WAS SECONDARY TO THAT!!!! I will repeat this again: FOLLOW IVAN, MIRJANA, JAKOV, CHRISTINA GALLAGER, MATTHEW KELLY, ESTELLA RUIZ, ETC., ETC., INSTEAD OF THE TRUE, CATHOLIC EXAMPLES OF SAINTHOOD TO YOUR OWN PERIL!! BUT WHEN YOUR PROPER SPITITUAL CATHOLIC AUTHORITY TELLS YOU ANYTHING THAT IS NOT IN CONFLICT WITH THE BASIC TENETS OF THE FAITH, YOU SHOULD LISTEN TO HIM AS IF IT IS CHRIST HIMSELF WHO IS SAYING IT!!!!!!! BE VIGILANT, BE WISE--FOR THE TRUE MOTHER OF GOD WILL NOT "THANK YOU FOR RESPONDING" TO FALSE ALARMS, TO FALSE "CALLS."
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 18, 2003.
Jesus does not like shouting. Can you please speak more softly and turn off the caps?ml
-- MaryLu (mlc327@juno.com), February 18, 2003.
It is interesting how Donovan says this:"There are likewise few examples of outright condemnation. When they do occur it is usually on the basis of doctrine which is contrary to the faith."
...and then completely fails to take up any consideration whatsoever as to what could be said at Medjugorje that might be contrary to doctrine!. Because there are things said by the apparition of Medjugorje that are in fact contrary to doctrine. This is everything; everything else is nothing of consequence.
Contradiction to doctrine has to be the single most powerful condemnation available. It is unconscionable that Colin Donovan completely fails to even address this point; he just states it in passing, then glosses over it and then on to "the rules".
"Common sense, however, says that Catholics on both sides of the Medjugorje issue should exercise prudence and charity in speaking of others who believe differently."
Well yeah, sure... the rules of charity are never put aside. But I think what Donovan is insinuating is that people shouldn't take a strong stance on the issue or they break with charity. I think that take on it needs to be put aside as invalid and the truth needs to be upheld.
"Medjugorje is not a litmus test of orthodoxy, though every Catholic will have a moral obligation to accept the judgement of Rome, in the manner Pope Benedict explained, should it ever be rendered."
I think it is. Every Catholic also has, above all else, an obligation to accept and uphold the dogma of the Faith.
"St. Augustine probably gave the simpliest and most helpful rule for all matters of the Church's life when he said (in my paraphrase): In all necessary things unity, in undecided things freedom, and in all things charity."
Donovan has something a bit mixed up here. I think he considers Medjugorje to be list under the category of undecided things and therefore under the character of freedom. Doctrinal compromise, which he mentions the possible existance of and then glosses over without review, puts Medjugorje under the category of necessary things. It is necessary to walk away from it.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 18, 2003.
Without getting into the merits/lack thereof of Medjugorge, may I recommend a very good site? It's called Catholic Apparitions of Jesus and Mary" and provides a list, brief info, and current status of almost all the apparitions you can think of. Very helpful and informative. :-)
-- Christine L. :-) (christine_lehman@hotmail.com), February 18, 2003.
Well said, Emerald and GMO. As for the caps, GMO, I can see why you emphasize your points. Contrary to Mary Lu's opinion, that does not constitute 'shouting.' It is time that someone with courage and truth on his side, started speaking out more definitively about these issues. Mary Lu's comment is unnecessarily sarcastic and doesn't address any of the great substance contained in your newfound understanding of Church Teaching. Keep educating us. I have also reconsidered my too-eager propensity for running here and there every time some "seer" decides that a statue is weeping or that God is giving him/her a call to conference to the world about their alleged big-time messages or visions. I got burned, myself, a few times, over a belief in following a phony mystic (a priest, no less, in one case!) Later, I found out, that he may never have even received his Holy Orders--meaning, of course, that he wasn't even a priest. I have friends who likewise were burned by their belief in this same "padre." I had never considered myself to be easily fooled, but you are right in saying that we need to listen to the right spiritual authorities when they warn us against such foolhardiness. Peace.
-- JAnne (ja90@hotmail.com), February 18, 2003.
Janne, you seem impressed with Emerald’s and GMO’s “newfound understanding of Church teaching”. What a dangerous way of putting it - “newfound understanding of Church teaching” and one I haven’t heard in a long time! There is but one true understanding of Church teaching and it comes from the Church herself as taught by Her Bishops in union with the Holy Father, the successors to the Apostles. I think it’s been proven here that our sacred Church has not yet made any definitive statements about the authenticity of the apparitions purportedly taking place in Medjugorje. However, you and others may believe what you wish, that is your prerogative, but when you ask for others to keep educating “us” in their “newfound understanding” rest assured you are certainly not speaking for me.JAnne, when you were “burned a few times” by “phony mystics” were you following those same Church guidelines you seem so fond of today? Were you “listening to the right spiritual authorities when they warned you against such foolhardiness”, as you so aptly put it?
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 19, 2003.
Oh yes, Janne, I almost forgot; about the caps? You may not realize it, but some people have difficulty reading them due to various physical afflictions they endure. While caps lend little constructive tangible support to any arguments being offered, they do go far in discouraging some from reading the writer’s comments altogether.
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 19, 2003.
I really can't take any credit for my last comment concerning caps. My friend Mr. Chris Butler taught me all about caps many catechism lessons ago. Remember Chris? You see Chris, some of the things to taught me did sink in! :)
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 19, 2003.
Excellent post Ed! Keep up the good work.Peace & Love
-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), February 19, 2003.
lol! Catholicism is stranger than fiction...
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 19, 2003.
Well, no Ed, I didn't know enough to follow the normal Church guidelines concerning these sorts of things. To have once lacked clarity on Catholic guidelines doesn't mean that you need to attack my character. And it is time that someone pointed out, as did Paul, Michael, and GMO, here, that heeding these guidelines will help keep a person from making the same mistakes that I did. So why all the hostility? Perhaps you have a hard time giving up your own immersement in the obvious mistake that Medjugorje represents on every level. Frankly, I am much more convinced by the arguments against it, here on this forum, due to several factors: one, my own life experiences during which I made the same mistakes that others have mentioned (in following false prophets); and two, the newfound understanding that I have acquired about how and why the local bishop(s) would, and in medjugorje's case, do warn their flocks about the great lie that gave it birth. Peace.
-- JAnne (ja90@hotmail.com), February 19, 2003.
I wonder why people spend so much time debating things such as apparitions. Are such things profitable for the building up of the Body of Christ ? Are such things central to God's eternal economy ? Let's get back on track with Christ.
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 20, 2003.
Dear OliverYes, such things are profitable for the building up of the Body of Christ? Otherwise God would not provide them. No, such things are NOT central to God's eternal economy, nor are they even essential. But they can still be profitable. When Mary does truly deliver a message to the human race, it is on behalf of her Divine Son. So, it is not a matter of getting back on track with Christ, but rather a matter of discerning what is of Christ and what is not. It is true however that wrangling over such matters in an online forum is not going to settle anything, and can reach the point of distracting from more important issues.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 20, 2003.
Hello All! Ah, I see the intellectuals are out in force over the fine points of Medjugorje's authenticity. For one thing God gave me a brain. For another, there is gift from the Holy Spirit called 'Discernment'. I have never heard a Pro-Med person use an argument that it was discernment which helped him come to a conclusion about the place. Everything I know about Med, leads me to believe it is false. Not a single event there has convinced me that the place is legitimate.
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 20, 2003.
Hello, Everyone!I'd like to address this response to Paul. I respectfully differ with you, sir, that this forum regarding Medjugorje doesn't serve a useful or even important purpose. In fact, some questions that I have had for years about that place have now become clarified in light of the responses posted here. I had always wanted to believe it and wanted it all to be true. But now, after reading and sifting through the letters here, I am more convinced that my desire to believe it blinded me to some realities. I now question why, for example, one of the seers had said that Our Lady's birthday is on a date different from the one on the Church calandar. I also wonder why the issue was made by another seer that more souls go to heaven on Christmas than on All Soul's Day. These statements, while they seemed innocuous, also had seemed innocent. But now I wonder...could it be that a new church calandar would behoove a church getting ready to finally split? Besides,for Our Lady to focus on when her birthday really fell, seems ridiculous, now. Like she would come to chat with these seers on their birthdays and talk about her birthday, as well?? I don't know, it seems hokey, now that I really think about it. I also have a different attitude about that statement that she made about all religions being equal. There is no way to interpret that as being anything other than doctrinal error. However, if a schismatic goal has been the orchestrators' scheme all along, then, yes, what some of you have been writing is indeed sobering. It would fit neatly into any plan to elevate false or rebellious priests or lay people into this new, schismatic church. I, for one, want to remain Catholic, and I don't think I'd like any one of those so- called seers or rebellious priests being my new pope. Unity Publishing is a great site. Thanks to the person who mentioned it, here. I checked it out, but would never have discovered it had it not been for you persons who had the courage to write about and against what I now consider a huge farce, at best. Thanks much, again.
-- chris waters (baseballfamily4.3@sbcglobal.com), February 21, 2003.
Paul you say that arguing about the apparitions is profitable for the building up of the body of Christ because, as you state, they are from God.1. You assume the apparitions are from God 2. Anything that is not central to God's economy is vanity and unprofitable.
-- Oliver Fischer (spicenut@excite.com), February 21, 2003.
Oliver, your commentary is confusing. Are you trying to imply that no apparitions of Our Lady can ever edify the Church?? And if you think that discourse on the ones that have provoked confusion is all vanity, you ought to re-read my letter. I think that the discourse here has helped shed light on why the Medjugorje saga is just that, a long saga, full of sound and fury and signifying something: like a plot to discredit the One True Church founded by Christ.In the Catholic Tradition, God doesn't ask us to suspend our intellects. We are supposed to use them, and this forum provides some very good thought-provoking commentary. If it has helped me in my faith, then, in a very Catholic sense, you are just writing plain nonsensical jargon. Why not listen to what others are saying before you make a statement like that.
-- chris waters (baseballfamilysbc@4.2.com), February 21, 2003.
Dear Chris,I did not say that the forum is useless or unimportant. I find it very useful personally in providing new insights on a variety of topics. I did say that apparitions are not central to the faith, or even essential to it. And that is true. The issue about Mary's birthday is not important because the Church does not claim that the calendar date of that feast day is Mary's actual date of birth. Her date of birth, like that of all persons from apostolic times, is unknown. However, the doctrinal errors are indeed important, and are the principle reason the supposed "apparitions" have not been, and never will be approved.
Dear Oliver,
I did not say that arguing about apparitions can be profitable for building up the Body of Christ. I said that such spiritual phenomena as apparitions themselves, when genuine, can be useful in that regard, though certainly not central or even essential to the faith. There are many aids to spiritual growth which, while not central to God's plan of salvation, can still be very useful and profitable.
-- Paul (PaulCyp@cox.net), February 22, 2003.
JAnne,it might be in order to take a few moments to re-read some of your very own earlier comments towards others in this thread. The tone of my response in part, was a direct and immediate reaction to what you had previously written.As for Medjudgorge, as I have said, I personally haven't yet finalized my opinion as to the authenticity of the events that have take place. Again, I have been waiting for the Church to definitively rule on it, which of course, to this point, She has not. I must admit that however, that since witnessing so many outward and interior conversions from people who have been touched by the story of Medjudgorje, I have been impressed with the positive effect it has had on so many lives.
JAnne, I am sorry if my earlier comments came across to you as being hostile. Peace be also with you.
-- Ed Lauzon (grader@accglobal.net), February 24, 2003.
Ed, if you re-read my own short letters, you will see that I merely have responded, quite politely, in fact, to the initial hostile remarks that others have made towards those who write about why the Medjugorje seers are not credible or trustworthy. Conversion to a phenomenom that does not originate from Catholic Truth is conversion to a non-Catholic falsehood. I find these initial hostile reactions to be quite typical, and all-too-understandable, since I know from firsthand experience about how much a person can be deluded in these matters.You cannot ignore the doctrinal falsity that Paul points out, or the good Bishops of Mostar's authority, as GMO points out, nor the interesting observation brought up that this seems to be a different Mary, from a different type of church, which is changing official dates established by Rome, itself. Would not a truely diabolical plot have to involve the appearance of good? Satan manifests himself as an angel of light to ensnare the very best of Christ's followers. It is a dangerous mistake to underestimate him. Again, I know this from firsthand experience. And I might add that even if there were no obvious doctrinal error-which there is-a person must look at what the proper spiritual authority is stating. I know too many good, fine persons who became postulants, novices, nuns, and brothers, in an Order that was founded by a self-proclaimed mystical priest whom I now know had been silenced by his Superiors for many sound theological reasons. But he disobeyed them, and now I know that he was the head of a sizable splinter group, and that this information, while available, was not something that any of us had thought to question. We all believed what we were told, at the time: that "those" Superiors were jealous or evil, and that this great, holy, mystically gifted priest was being "calumniated" (as those who chose to follow him, called it). You cannot imagine the damage that this "priest" ultimately caused in the lives of those who of us who were looking for "signs" to help us strenghten our Faith. Satan will use the rosary, a religious order, the Mass, mystical signs and wonders-whatever he can, to ensnare souls. We listened to the improperly appointed new superiors, all of us, because we didn't want to give up our dream of an authentic mystic in our midst-someone who could read souls and help us in our spiritual search. That we went to daily Mass, that we recited many rosaries, that we sang beautiful hymns and prayers at Vespers, that we worked hard, in the kitchen and on the farm, that we all tried to follow the Rule and abide charitably with one another, all of that and more, does not mean that we were part of a holy order founded by a holy priest. That is the stumbling block for so many people. That was the stumbling block for me. If it looks right and good, if everything seems Catholic-that does not make it so! Many of us learned that the hard way. Some still have not learned that lesson and still follow him.
So, an apology is not necessary, Ed. But perhaps you need to re- read some of your own remarks to honestly reassess why you don't want to hear the truth. And the truth about Medjugorje is that it sprang from six persons whose testimony is riddled with contradiction, prevarication, rebellious hostility (towards Bishop Zanic), and theological falsity. But, just like that phony mystic that I once followed, it certainly has its own false superiors, gurus, and share of deeply mistaken followers.
-- JAnne (ja90@hotmail.com), February 24, 2003.
"Conversion to a phenomenom that does not originate from Catholic Truth is conversion to a non-Catholic falsehood."Yeah! Very true.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), February 24, 2003.
Hello JAnne, and Paul and all. JAnne has spoken some provocative truths. I wish everyone could just keep one simple thing in mind. And that is, the Church has condemned Medjugorje through the words and proclamations of the local bishops. Bishop Peric's 1998 statement is very clear, and does not provide any occasion for doubt that the seers are liars, there is much diobedience in his diocese, and whatever whoever is seeing, is NOT FROM GOD........... Can it get any clearer than that?
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), February 24, 2003.
GMO says "there is much diobedience in his diocese, and whatever whoever is seeing, is NOT FROM GOD........... Can it get any clearer than that?"Wouldn't it also be safe to say that currently there is much disobedience in ALL diocese' world wide. Afterall, look at the current crises of the pedophilia priest and the bishops and cardnals that pretty much turned a blind eye. "We'll just move them to a new location, that'll stop it." The disobedience is obvious and oh so sad!
And GMO, who are you to say that what these people are seeing is not of GOD? Are you so almighty that you know it all and you KNOW what is going on without even being there? It's one thing to say you do not believe it, but quite another to say it's not of God because it doesn't fit into your preconceived little mold.
Anyone have any thoughts as to the apparations happening in Canada?
God Bless
-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), March 10, 2003.
To Choas: I did not invent these things about Medjugorje. The Proper and Legal Church Authority, the Bishops of Mostar, both Bishop Zanic, and Bishop Peric have made these statements concerning the apparitions. I am obliged, as all Catholics, to recognize and OBEY the authority of these bishops. And in this particular case, the evidence is so damaging against the seers, the disobedient Franciscans, and the fraudulent messages, that for me, my reason also tells me to avoid Medjugorje.Yes, there is much disobedience in the world today. And much scandal. It is seen in the laity and the clergy. What has this to do with Proper Church Authority? There are crooked cops and judges in the world also. Are you suggesting anarchy because there is abuse of power. Look at Clinton if you want to see an example of power and authority in the hands of the undeserving.
Christ gave the Authority to govern the Church to Peter and the Apostles (that is, the bishops). So because of a bad bishop or priest, will you go against Christ's Church. Who can have more authority than those given it directly from God. If you are Catholic, this is a fact of life. Even in Christ's early Church, there was a Judas. In human frailty, it will always be so. We must have faith! Without faith, we are nothing!
As for the apparitions in Canada, until the Holy Roman Catholic Church has something to say about it, I really could care less. The Church guides me morally. There are far, far too many seers, sightings, and false prophets in the world today. Many are decieved. Many are looking for signs.
It is not easy to obey. It is not easy to be moral. It is not easy to discern the truth about everything. The Church, however, knows Its sheep and guards and protects them. It teaches and instructs them in the paths to righteousness. There is only one true Church. The world does not need more confusion, fear, frustration, deception, and lies that come from those who would claim to have the Authority of God.
When the properly appointed religious authority makes any statement that is not contrary to Catholic Morality, the Ten Commandments, The Teachings of Christ, etc... one is morally bound to listen and obey: for it is Christ Himself who commands you!
Can it get any clearer than that?
-- GMO (gmo7771@aol.com), March 10, 2003.
Well GMO, I don't think it is ever going to be clear again, only more muckier.What do you have to say about the prophesies that say that evil will infiltrate even into the church. Is it not happening now? So if satan has spread his evil even into the church, is it not our duty to question that church? The church has made some unwise decisions, especially since VII. Are we to just turn a blind eye, no. We need to be steadfast in our prayers but that also includes questioning what's been going on. God himself has told us to question things. If it is Gods will, then the answers will come easily, but if it isn't of God, plan on mirky waters ahead.
Just for example, do you know the reasoning behind no longer saying the Archangel Michael prayer befor mass? I've never heard a beliveable answer. And why on earth are we no longer allowed to kneel when getting communion? Its as though satan has had enough of us showing so much respect for God and put an end to it. He is spreading his evil and it seems alot of the faithful are just going with the flow.
For instance, what would happen, if befor the priest walks down the isle to begin mass, the congregation on its own says the Archangel Michael prayer? Would that be going against the church?
Just me thinking out loud. Peace & Love Choas
-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), March 11, 2003.
Choas, permit me to comment on some points that you brought up in your last few letters, while I even add a few of my own. I personally love the Saint Michael prayer and say it daily. Furthermore, I wish that the Mass would, once again, involve the use of missals and the beautiful Latin language. Of course, many of us feel, as you do, the absence of aesthetical beauty: the hymns are all- too- often ridiculous, the homilies dry, and the congregation, somewhat distant. There were many times when I may have been lucky to know even one person in that congregation. Also, I felt alone, many times, in my attempts to pay homage to the Eucharist, the Body of Christ, (even with a simple bow of the head, during the Consecration.) None of these types of points that you bring up lack validity. The misinterpretations of Vatican II have brought about much misunderstanding and feelings of alienation within the lay community. But be that as it may, please remember a few things. The Evil that has penetrated the Church, today, has prongs that jut out from every direction: not just the obvious ones, but ones that catch us unawares in the garbs of false prophets and mystics. Perhaps ones that look not unlike that hellish, jagged "apparition hill" in Medjugorje. The Faithful need to possess the courage and intellectual honesty to ask themselves about why Bishop Zanic made his Statement and why Bishop Peric, today, stands ever firmly on that same ground. Was Bishop Zanic a liberal implant, a purposefully evil man with great antagonism towards the grace-filled Mother of God? Did he hate the six "seer" persons because he didn't want Our Lady to appear in his own diocese? Did he go to Lourdes, Fatima, and other approved Marian sites, because he didn't believe that these sorts of miracles were possible?? If you honestly discern the type of man that he was, you will have to discern the truth: that the Split over this issue does not rise from the good, perhaps even saintly, long- suffering Bishops of Mostar, but from a quite different source. Yes, even Hollywood got into the act, painting Bishop Zanic as a buffoon, at best, and anti-Godly, at worst, (all the while focusing on raising a rebellious priest to a highly questionable status). Perhaps the waters are murky for you because the path to Truth is quite narrow. It is not always such an easy path to walk. But do be aware of the wolves in sheep clothing: where the Evil One was not able to trip you up on the left, he will assuredly try to trip you up on the right. How many mistakes I made in wishing and deciding that persons were holy or mystical because they sounded right at the time, or were properly dressed in the traditional habits of nuns or priests! How often I thought that I could discern such signs on my own! How believable those six medjugorje "seers" first seemed!!Be on your guard. It is my opinion that the Chastisement is already here. We are being asked to believe without signs. We are being asked to have Faith in the Eucharist even when the priests sometimes do not. We are being asked to stay Catholic while we see the infiltration of Evil in our Church take root and grow wildly, like the very flames of Hell, itself. We are being Called to Holiness: Holiness without signs and wonders, Holiness without spinning suns, Holiness without false prophets, Holiness without the Holy priests, bishops, and nuns we long for...this is the Chastisement. But Our Holy Father, Pope John Paul II, told us not to be afraid. Because, Choas, even amidst all this confusion and suffering, we still may go to Mass, we still may offer up all of the dryness that we feel; many other persons, in repressive countries such as China, can not. Often, they have to go without even the most basic Sacraments and gifts from the Church. In light of that incredible dryness, perhaps we may gain better perspective on our own. God Bless you, and Mary, the Mother of God, May she guide you. Peace in Christ.
-- JAnne (ja90@hotmail.net), March 14, 2003.
In my last paragraph, I ought to have written ...Holiness without enough of the Holy priests, bishops and nuns that we long for...Othewise, I imply that we have no examples of such types of good religious!!
-- JAnne (ja90@hotmail.com), March 14, 2003.
Thanks for your comments JAnne. You have a wonderful way of saying things. You words bring a breath of fresh air to this forum, something that we despirately need.May God continue to Bless you. Peace & Love
-- Choas (Choas@ivillage.com), March 14, 2003.
This is what I have been looking for. A wolf in sheep's clothing. Satan will deceive by incorporating some truth and good into his evil desires.
-- Isabel (isabel@yahoo.com), March 15, 2003.
I dont have time to read all of these things but I believe she has been appearing to those blessed children in Medjugorje but you adults don't believe and have your doughts while children like me have no doubts!To get into heaven you have to be like children- God said it himself- Have no doubts in God Believe in him and you will get to heaven! while interviewing a child that has seen Mary and has recieved the secrets the reporter asks: Have you seen heaven and hell? C- yes R- What where they like? C- Heaven was so great I can't even describe it! People looked so happy and everthing there was happy!Hell was very scary regular people like you and me walked into this fire in the middle of the room then they came out looking like no creature I can describe they were so ugly and lifeless and they looked so angry! R- In hell could you feel any heat? C- No the Blessed Mother was protecting us.Think about this - which would you rather go to
If you have any questions about this matter please email me!
-- Leah S (deboomus@yahoo.com), June 10, 2003.
Leah SI like your descriptions of Heaven and Hell. I have read those in a book somewhere. It was either in Medjugorje messages or the St. Faustina Diary. There could be nothing theologically wrong with a message yet it can still be a false one. This is because a message can cause us to have pride. Or it may cause another to begin having their own messages that oppose doctrine but now that person believes these erroneous ones because they believed in the first set of messages we mentioned. In other words Medjugorje followers become freelance artists, not checking their personal locutions against Church teaching because they want to be important or because of excessive desire to be connected to God in a privileged way.
The Montanistic movement (2nd century A.D.) had no serious doctrinal errors for most of its existance. There were seers and prophets, it spread all over Christendom, Tertullian fell to it, yet it was eventually condemned by the Church. It was condemned based on the character of its leaders. So Medjugorje messages alone do not tell me if it a legitimate phenomenon.
Sincerely,
-- Mike H. (michael.hitzelberger@vscc.cc.tn.us), June 11, 2003.
I believe the Medjugorje events to be authentic. My personal opinion is that fraud cannot be possible because the apparitions have been going on for so long. They began with the seers being very young receiving daily messages, sometimes personal. They have been exposed to so many mediatic organizations, scrutinized by medical and spiritual parties. Noone can conduct such a complicated scenario for so long with a skeptical world watching and monitoring without falling at some point. Noone would expect to be able to fool the world using five children for years and years without being caught. It remains to consider the diabolical origin as some people suggested, well, Jesus' advice is to judge by the fruits. What I saw during those years of claimed apparitions is people converting, lives changings, sacrament practices on the rise, healings etc. ... . Where are the false teachings that some have talked about. I will tell you one message that made some "Ultra" Catholics doubt: Mary suggested that all people of all religions are equal before God! Not all religions equal but all people equal. I found this to be beautiful. Some found it to be a contradiction to Catholic teachings, some even it diabolical!!. We (Catholics) must be the one and only??? Sorry but that is not a Catholic doctrine. The point is, we judge an event or a message according to our theological agenda and OUR INTERPRETATION to what is the true doctrine and quickly condemn it if it doesn't fit. We must humble enough to admit that we have alot to learn still. It is true that some messages (because they were many) I found difficult to grasp but I do not judge the whole thing based on that. Especially since I am aware of my imperfection and my limited intellect, I must be open minded and try to understand, to give a chance and wait like the Church does. People uncomfortable with a specific (private) revelation or with some supernatural event have all the right to so. The essential has been revealed: Sacraments, Gospels, Dogmas. But to rush on judging events as Satanic because they are not in conformity with our personal theology is definitely not fair. Human subjectivity is unlimited and we can always interpret things the way it suits us and that is why we must temper our judgement. Some see miracles everywhere, some see the devil and conspiracy theories everywhere. I personnally avoid getting obsessed by all this. I pray, follow my intuition and turn everything to God, if I make a mistake, no big deal, God knows my humanity and judge my sincerity in seeking his truth. I do not need to know the Fatima secret or the Church' judgement on Medjugorje to start living the Gospel message. "Seek the Kingdom of God and everything else will be given to you as a plus". As a final note, mother Theresa believed in the authenticity of the Medjugorje revelations! To me, this says alot.
-- Anthony Ibrahim (antoniov64@hotmail.com), October 13, 2003.
"My personal opinion is that fraud cannot be possible because the apparitions have been going on for so long."Actually, that's circumstantial evidence that they are a fraud. Here's why: Rome itself will not rule on an ongoing apparition; they wait until it's over. The Medjugorje promoters know this, and so they keep the momentum up, all the while anticipating this ever-illusive day when Rome lends it an official approval... knowing full well that it won't be forthcoming as long as they keep plugging along with supposed new phenomena.
That's just circumstantial evidence, though. It fits in well with the facts. The fact are that the local bishop has condemned it forcefully, and like you pointed out yourself, the apparition itself promotes the heresy of indifferentism. I can provide the quotes from the apparition or the seers to this point if necessary.
-- Emerald (emerald1@cox.net), October 13, 2003.
Does anyone have information from a realiable source as to what our Holy Father feels personally about Medjugoria? If he has made any statement on this I would be very much interested.
-- Pat Delaney (pat@patdelaney.net), October 13, 2003.
It is timely that this thread is resurrected now. Today's Gospel preached worldwide at all Catholic masses is Luke 11:29-32..."While still more people gathered in the crowd, he said to them, "This generation is an evil generation; it seeks a sign, but no sign will be given it, except the sign of Jonah.
Just as Jonah became a sign to the Ninevites, so will the Son of Man be to this generation.
At the judgment the queen of the south will rise with the men of this generation and she will condemn them, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and there is something greater than Solomon here.
At the judgment the men of Nineveh will arise with this generation and condemn it, because at the preaching of Jonah they repented, and there is something greater than Jonah here."
We are thrill seekers. We want the excitement. We want to say ohhhh! Just as it was in Jesus's time, so it is today. Gimme a vision or I won't believe! It's a dangerous appetite.
-- Mike H. (beginasyouare@hotmail.com), October 13, 2003.