I was at a Local college this morning doing a talk to the students on photojournalism.After showing some of my portfolio shots one of the students asked,"how brave do you have to be?",I asked what she meant and she pointed out that most of the shots were photographs of people and she wanted to know how I approached the subject.I had to be honest and tell her that I simply asked-"do you mind if I get some photo's".

How do other photographers approach strangers?(I'll be showing some of the answers to the students tommorrow!)

-- Virgil (leicavirgin@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002

Answers

[NOTE: The IP address of this post, 213.137.30.87, is the same as the thread originator, Phill Kneen. Since the answer seems sincere, I'm not deleting it. But I don't appreciate the games. I don't appreciate people having conversations with themselves on my forum. Maybe two different people are taking turns sitting down at the computer to make posts, but I kind of doubt it. This post stays. "Virgil's" posts - the ones that strictly follow forum guidelines - will stay too. But I'm watching you and one or two other folks using the same IP! -tr]

I have to say that I don't normally ask,I just start shooting,if anyone asks what I'm doing I tell them.

If I want a kind of portrait shot I just walk up to the subject and ask "hello,could I take your photo please",people very rarely say no.

If I'm photographing someone and they don't like it and start to get stroppy,I run away like a young Gazelle.What the hell,I'll never see them again.

-- Phill Kneen (philkneen@manx.net), February 14, 2002.

I like your question. That is why I'm always amazed when others here in the forum say they just ask people so that they are then aware, don't end up feeling snatched away, and even know how to look good as a subject. But that doesn't always work for me. Worst of all, the best subject (again, for me) often says "No shooting!". E.g. the shoe polisher at a market in Cypress or a really old granddad in the antique book store. What I find works best (for me myself and I) in such cases is just to first preset my 2/35 by hyperfocusing it, and then -- with all available stealth, casualness etc -- shoot him without the camera (hanging around my neck anyways) moving an inch away from my tummy.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 14, 2002.

Dear Virgil,

I'm something of a weird existence. I'm a gaijin (foreigner) street photographer in Japan. A street photog ought to be invisible, a fly on the wall with a silent camera (if you'll pardon this awful metaphor). In Japan it is impossible. I stick out because I look different.

Japanese either don't want to be photographed or, if they do, go into conventional poses. I don't ask for permission to photograph people. I just do it--on the sly.

What I do to be "invisible" is to shoot from waist level. It isn't easy. In fact, if you don't practise every day you get out of shape quickly. Failures, of which I have many, are truly awful. The successes--well, yes, they are successes. They are successes that truly surprise me.

The truth is that I am not brave. I am a dreadful coward in human interactions in fact. Strangers--I cannot deal with them at eye to the camera viewfinder level. So in answer to the question of "How brave do you have to be?" I answer: "Not very."

But then "Fools rush in where Angels fear to tread."

Okay--here is another angle--another proof of my cowardise! My major project of the last two years I've been shooting a place in Osaka where mostly young people hang out to show off their latest wild fashions. Usually there are tons of tourists with cameras and real photogs hanging out there. I just blend in--but still shoot mostly from the waist.

On trains photography is simple first grade math. All seats on Japanese trains that face each other are 8 feet apart. I dial in 8 feet and I'm in business. When I see my subject I look up at the posters when I touch the shutter button. (Oh yes, lighting on trains is a uniform 1/125 at f2.8 with 1600 ISO film in absence of natural light).

But I am such an awful coward that I often tell myself after a day of shooting that this is absolutely the last time I am doing street photography. I mean I feel like such an idiot photographing people I don't know. And I then I start feeling a little guilty--there is something to the superstition about stealing someone's soul by capturing their image.

I've tried photographing cats. I love cats. Cats are fun to watch. But I know that's not where my heart is as a photog. So after getting my fill of cats I'm on the train again, the lens set to eight feet.

Damn! I wish I was a nature photographer! (No, I have nightmares about being eaten by bears.)

-- Alex Shishin (shishin@pp.iij4-u.or.jp), February 14, 2002.

I ask. Since I'm not fluent in any language other than my own, this is usually done by just by holding my camera up and smiling inquisitively. This usually generates one of three reactions -- a returned smile with a nod; a negative shake with an outstretched palm; or a non-commital shrug with thier hand outstretched while rubbing their fingers together... I generally do not pay -- makes it harder on you guys when you visit there after me :)

Alternatively, if there is something else going on, I will use that action as my main subject, the people now being in the perifery. Often, since I regularly use wide lenses, they are not even aware they might be in the frame and keep very natural expressions.

:-),

-- Jack Flesher (jbflesher@msn.com), February 14, 2002.

You go Phill! I have to confess that is pretty well my technique - few people get stroppy, but every now and then they do, but I am pretty unaggressive, so usually if they do have an issue, in my humble opnion, they have the problem. Often I am asked why I have taken the shot and asked if I work for a paper or magazine. I always say no, whether if I said "yes" it would help I have no idea. Many people cover their face with their hands if they see me in action. Some tell me I am not allowed to take their photo or not without their agent's consent(!). If they are a real pain about it, I tell them I am as it is a public place. But I usually have the shot by then. Strangely enough most people who threaten and tell me not to take their photo I usually had never considered taking them anyway. Most of the time people don't mind. Sometimes I ask, sometimes not it depends on the situation

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

Virgil-

I almost never ask permission. The last time I did, the response was, "I'd rather you didn't." Generally, I don't worry about anyone being aware of my camera and I don't make any great efforts to hide it. I'm kind of sneaky about it though. I always carry it in my right hand, I use zone focus most of the time. I just try to hide in plain sight, then shoot quickly. I prefer to bring the camera to my eye, but I don't think to much about the perceived "invalidity" that some do about a shot taken while shooting from the hip. Sometimes it is a bit imtimidating, sometimes I even chicken out and don't shoot. I don't worry much about stealing someone's soul either.

In the book "Henri Cartier-Bresson and the Artless Art", the author Jean-Pierre Montier wrote, "As a stealer of fire, the photographer makes a career out of always remaining invisible or at least, like a thief at the fair, of not being spotted while he pilfers."

-- jeff voorhees (debontekou@yahoo.com), February 14, 2002.

Harry man. Calm down. Keep it civil.

I usually just shoot, and then apologize when they start yelling at me. ;)

ken

-- Ken Kwok (kk353@yahoo.com), February 14, 2002.

I'm not a street photographer per se, that is not seeking "images a la sauvette." My best photos come after building some sort of relationship: hanging out with the people engaged in some activity, whatever it happens to be--fishing, flying kites, boxing in a gym. Talking to them, learning about their work, showing a genuine interest--this makes for better photos (for me) than trying to shoot surreptitiously.

In my experience, people are happy to share a little of their lives in this way and are honored that you would want to photograph them. A photograph is a window on a story. It helps to know a little of that story before you trip the shutter.

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), February 14, 2002.

Hi Virgil! Depends on the situation, but usually if I'm open and honest with strangers, and can engage them in a conversation that shows genuine interest in them, before raising the camera, this gives my subjects the confidence they need to "be themselves," and the act of photographing often flows naturally and unintrusively. The give and take is truly that, between myself and my subject, as opposed to just the "take" of the subject by a camera. But have I "lost the moment?" Hardly! I'll willingly sacrifice the first impression, the often singular "trophy" photograph, in order to first connect with a subject verbally. I've gained my subjects trust, and they often feel a sense of empowerment as the camera's presence is (discreetly and respectfully) added to the conversation.

-- John Layton (john.layton@valley.net), February 14, 2002.

Phill

I agree that is probably why people ask whether you work for a magazine. It always amuses me a little. If they wanted money, would we bother to take their picture? No way!

-- Robin Smith (smith_robin@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

"It's easier to ask for forgiveness than for permission."

I will always ask for one, if I feel there's any invasion in taking a photo. If the subject won't know, I'll shoot and walk. If it's news I'm shooting, I don't worry either way. I will pay for a shot, sometimes, but only if it's my idea, not theirs. If they look like they need it, I'll offer to pay for a few shots- I tell them it's for their time, not their image. If they ask for money, I walk.

Bravery doesn't really enter into it for me- I don't think I'm brave- nor am I really a coward. People are people, and I find us an approachable species, for the most part. Subject curiousity can help.

I think gender can help, too- I've assisted a couple of well known female photographers, both of whom have pointed out that as women are generally less threatening to most people, they can get access to things men can't always. I would mention this to your female students as a point in their favor. Susan Sontag and Mary Ellen Mark have both spoken on the subject.

-- drew (swordfisher@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

Hello Virgil. This is a catch 22 situation ..if you ask and the response is "no!" then you may say to yourself "I shouldn't have asked,and perhaps have just taken. On the other hand, if you photograph without asking,and you can't quite gauge the subject's response your conscience may say "I should have had the common decency to ask."

In my experience if the photo or subject is a real good one, you should take at least one shot as you regret "the one that got away", then perhaps engage yourself in a short but courteous conversation with the subject.At least that little quiet Leica is not an obtrusive camera .. not as "professional" looking and as obtrusive as say an F5 Nikon with 80 to 200mm on board.

If the photo is for publication there may be legalities involved, model release etc.However, if the photo is a hot topic, the paparazzi with thick skins shoot and don't worry about it. Regards.

-- Sheridan Zantis (albada60@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

,ALWAYS ask for permission to photograph kids.

I NEVER ask for permission to photograph kids. If they (or their parents) say "Yes," I invariably get a huge and predictable smile. Sometimes I just stand there and take their picture without asking and they rarely smile, otherwise I just hip shoot or use some other surreptitious technique.

BBQ, Copyright 2001 Jeff Spirer

I tracked down this girl's father a few days later and got her into the studio. I have three rolls of silly grins. It wasn't worth it.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

End center, I hope.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

This child was a complete stranger at the time, and this was not a friend's barbeque. Her father was fine with the photograph when I showed it to him.

I have photographed children on the street in Mexico, in Morocco, in the US without ever asking permission. I've done it in good neighborhoods and in bad neighborhoods. No-one has ever said anything to me about it.

Maybe it's the demeanor, I don't know, but I have never had a problem.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

Isn't it likely that photographing anyone without permission in a neighborhood defined by "riot, murder and shotgun" would be a problem? The logic here makes no sense, as little as assuming that I was at a friend's barbecue.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

I learned my lesson after one nasty experience of being attacked by a photo subject (an old lady, fortunately for me!) whom I photographed without first asking her permission. Virgil's got it right-- permission is usually given if you ask and explain politely; besides, people are particularly partial to students.

-- Hoyin Lee (leehoyin@hutchcity.com), February 14, 2002.

Phil, Virgil said "ALWAYS". Maybe I have a comprehension problem, but I assume "ALWAYS" means "all the time." If he meant "in bad neighborhoods" he should have said "IN BAD NEIGHBORHOODS" rather than "ALWAYS."

I'm not on any teams.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

Good question, I asked myself how these guys can always approach subjects to get natural and beautiful pics. I tried to do hyperfocal/waist-level shooting on NYC subway, even I did take a shot of the target I was looking, there's always someone noticed what I'm doing not far away on the same train. Some smile and some looked angry. It's really about privacy.

But for making good pics, subject at least to be as natural as possible, but everytime after I asked, people changed the way they behave, suddenly just not natural any more.

I find Rolleiflex sometimes useful, people don't pay attention what the nut is doing; thought you're just looking down into a black box.

Also, the P&S sometimes helps in the crowded scenic spot, local people think these are dummy tourists, havn't seen this kind of activity in their entire life. Better give them a chance although the pics most likely won't show up simply coz it's such a dummy camera.

-- Fred Ouyang (yo54@columbia.edu), February 14, 2002.

Mr. Spirer-

You've no doubt noticed I've asked Phill what Feck and Bullocks mean. I pretty much knew, but I wanted to hear it from a the source. I'm pretty sure I know what a "tosser" is.

What do you think?

-- jeff voorhees (debontekou@yahoo.com), February 14, 2002.

Sorry Virgil. This is a fun thread.

-- jeff voorhees (debontekou@yahoo.com), February 14, 2002.

Have we been hijacked, or is the person who started this thread slinging some of the mud? The guy who asked the original question sounded very different from the similar-named poster at the bottom of this thread . . .

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), February 14, 2002.

There was a sidewalk cafe, outside of a trendy Chicago restaurant. It was a pleasant summer night and I noticed a young couple at a table about 15 feet from me. It was a romantic setting and I put the camera on a tabletop tripod (not enough light for hh). The girl's back was toward the camera and the man was facing her and me, (in the background), I never thouight to ask permission, thinking the fellow would just figure it to be a good picture which he should be happy to be a part of. Well, the picture came back, beautifully exposed. It captured the ambience just as I imagined, except for one small detail: The man's hand that had been resting on the table...was flipping me a bird!

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

Some Japanese tourist (the authorities say they thought he was a tourist), was lynched to death by a mob in Guatemala because he photographed children. Coincidentally (yeah right) the previous weeks paper had had a story on foreigners coming in and taking Guatemalan children to "rich" countries to be adopted...

I normally just take pictures of people and apologize after the fact, but you certainly need to know your surroundings.

-- Matthew Geddert (geddert@yahoo.com), February 14, 2002.

Frank, post your photo!

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), February 14, 2002.

Preston-- Sorry, I did not save that shot, which I considered an embarrassing disappointment, at the time. I do not have a scanner, and if I did, I don't think I'd have the computer moxie to get it on the forum. My only post on this forum was graciously done by someone who is very busy-- a one-time favor. I sure wish it were easier to post photos! :)

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

Frank, I agree with you on all those counts: scanning, editing, posting . . . There's little time left for actually shooting!

-- Preston Merchant (merchant@speakeasy.org), February 14, 2002.

When I am shooting my leica doing street photography, my specialty, I NEVER ask to shoot! My subject matter is always candid shots. Once you ask the shot is gone,gone, gone! I usually palm the camera, shoot wide and fast. Very frequently the subject of the photo thinks I was shooting something else further down the road. By the time they figure it out I'm usally gone, gone, gone!

-- John Elder (celder2162@aol.com), February 14, 2002.

I never ask; I just shoot. I may talk to them first, maybe after, maybe not at all--I still don't ask. If someone indicates that they don't want to be photographed, I don't photograph them (that's happened maybe three times).

[And just to head off another round of bullshit: I'm not lying. I don't care if you think I'm doing it wrong. They're my photos--I'll do it however I see fit.]

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 14, 2002.

I'm not sure why anyone would have reason to doubt where I said the photo was taken, it's rather sad.

It was taken at an urban street event, not in a backyard.

Black and White, Copyright 2001 Jeff Spirer

Same event. NOT someone's backyard.

Maybe I'll go shoot some pictures instead of arguing about where my pictures were taken. Maybe some of you all should consider the same. Might be more rewarding.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

[And just to head off another round of bullshit: I'm not lying. I don't care if you think I'm doing it wrong. They're my photos--I'll do it however I see fit.]

I should have let Mike say it for me too. He's much more succint.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

Actually, Virgil, if someone were to make the kind of comments to and about me in person that have been made about Jeff in this thread, they would learn a hard lesson about the limited extent of my civility.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 14, 2002.

Isn't it annoying as hell when people spend enough time actually shooting that they develop their own ideas about what works? And then have the gall to stand by their beliefs?!? Even when the cyberexperts who know the one true way tell them they're wrong!!?!?!?! Oh, the humanity . . .

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 14, 2002.

Doh!! The post I was making fun of got zapped while I was writing.

-- Mike Dixon (mike@mikedixonphotography.com), February 14, 2002.

I have long believed that the sort of audacity and pluck that made H C-B, Eisenstaedt and their ilk good at photography, would make them good at many other things they might set their hands to. If you're going to "get in peoples' faces" with your camera, it helps to be someone people either like really well, or are fearful of. Michael Jordan, Britney Spears, Steve "Stone Cold" Austin, Gov. Jesse Ventura, could all be good photographers. But anything that marks you, like the Japanese man who was lynched in Central America for photographing children, is going to add an element of danger. Who wouldn't want Jordan or Spears taking their picture? Who would complain very loudly to Ventura or "Stone Cold"? It's someone like me, who couldn't sell the proverbial $10-bill for $5, who is apt to get hit upside his head by an irate citizen, who did not want his picture taken! This is why I have to admire someone like Eisenstaedt.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), February 14, 2002.

Just like a card player who knows when to hold them and when to fold them it's the same with taking pictures of people. If you have a camera around your neck and you bring it to your face to take a picture you will know within nanoseconds whether to ask permission or to shoot away. If you act like a professional who knows what he is doing you can usually get away without asking. If you look like some sneaky creep with a camera you probably can't. It's best to ask if in doubt, but it does spoil the best candid photos if someone knows you are taking their picture. By the way, if they are carrying a gun, always ask.

-- Dayton P. Strickland (daytonst@bellsouth.net), February 14, 2002.

Sorry about that, Mike. If I had known, I would have preserved it so your point would be made clearer. I've been deleting like crazy today. Looks like there's some game playing going on, but it also looks like I'm winning.

-- Tony Rowlett (rowlett@mail.com), February 14, 2002.

I'm from the "never ask" school. Perhaps a motion to the camera depending on the situation. Like others, I have hadly ever been denied. Only once did I get an angry response.

...On your note about the same IP address, Tony. For a couple of years I accessed the net as part of a network. So others could work at home we were all assigned the same static IP, and just plugged into the "network" at home. At the time several of us surfed the same sites. That may explain it...

-- Jim Tardio (jimtardio@earthlink.net), February 14, 2002.

That may explain it...

I don't think so, people's writing styles are hard to change unless they do it for a living...

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 14, 2002.

I just got the assignment from my course to do some street photography. I sofar did not ask for permission, simply because I think it will take the moment away. Just imagine that before you take the picture above of the two laughing people, you first ask 'can I take a picture'. I too try shots from the hip, but indeed, it is difficult get get a nice shot. Recently I sat in the train and a real particular guy came to site in the isle next to me, looking pretty aggressive. As I was working on my laptop I took out the camera. What I did was pretend I was evaluating it. Every now and then I picked the camera up. Pointed it to him (without looking through the viewer, guessed distance) and took a shot. Then I would start typing like it was in response to the shot. Then I held the camera to my ear when transporting, as if to check the sound and again started typing. I made a couple of nice shots like this and alternative camera handling. Quite fun to do and effective.

Reinier

-- ReinierV (rvlaam@xs4all.nl), February 15, 2002.

I really don't see any point in arguing over what is proper street shooting technique. It comes down to what works for you. I ask permission 80% of the time. Maybe its my nature but I can engage in comfortable rapport with a person and get the image I want. Once I was shooting a face painter and child at a street fest. I made myself obvious to the face painter and she positioned a mirror reflecting the childs face into the image. It made the shot. I find people really like it when you take a genuine interest in them and in a short while they will become themselves and good subjects. It is also obvious on this thread that some are very sucsessful shooting covertly. Seems to be a matter of personal taste.

-- Steve Belden (otterpond@adelphia.net), February 15, 2002.

What Mike Dixon said.

-- Douglas Kinnear (douglas.kinnear@colostate.edu), February 15, 2002.

Adults, children... I never ask for permission. I also have a personal rule of not shooting from behind - makes things tricky, but that's part of the challenge. See the images in my Everyday Life project.

-- Andrew Nemeth (azn@nemeng.com), February 16, 2002.

Andrew- Nice shots. But I'm not sure I agree with your total dismissal of black & white film. If we are going to put it down as an archaism, then should we not also dismiss the thing that B&W replaced, to wit: hand drawn pictures? Lots of people like these, too! People still spend small fortunes on paintings of scenes that would have been rendered much more accurately by color film.

-- Frank Horn (owlhoot45@hotmail.com), February 17, 2002.

waiting your subject to aproach is another way of doing it, I agree with most of you, asking for permision never help, what help after words is a smile and a good atitude, is the least we can do, I think.

This is a larger example in case you want to see expressions (and out of focus) clearer, sorry no middle size.

-- r watson (al1231234@hotmail.com), February 19, 2002.