Where should BTS be going?

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Beyond the Sidewalks : One Thread

I was washing the dishes, and thinking about the things being discussed in the "application for new forum participant", which made me decide to start a new thread. When I went back to that thread, EM had made a post, which I have copied to this thread:

Ok, I know I have mentioned this before, but to my memory no one responded, so I'll try again. What do you all think of defining ourself? I mean, when people say they "have the same goals and interests" and suchlike, is that really the case here? What kind of forum do you see us as? What kind would we like to be? What elements of this community are important to us, to preserve and grow and share? I mean, people asking entrance may think this is much like CS, and I sure don't see it that way myself. How would they even KNOW that they really wanted to join? We have gone through several phases and changes in the past 10 months too, so who are we? I think CS is a pretty good homesteading place, and the archives are full of information, and does a pretty good job at its intended purpose. [SNIPPED] FSR has a focus, and the others too I think, but what is ours? Do you think we could develop like a mission statement or something? Or am I totally bananas here?

-- Earthmama (earthmama48@yahoo.com), February 12, 2002.

Now I'll tell you the thoughts that were running through my mind. Please comment, even if (especially if!) you think this is a dumb idea. It's just my rambling thoughts, and input would be great! What I was contemplating was opening a new forum, something like BTS Open (or some other name), and allowing in all and sundry and just delete anything I/we didn't like (I certainly would want to recruit at least one other "forum dragon") -- abusive postings, stuff like that. There would have to be general guidelines and a clear statement that anything that was annoying or offensive to the moderators could be deleted at will. I'd be willing to start the forum and attempt to moderate it, but anyone else who thinks this sounds interesting is welcome to do take over the idea! ;-)

So, maybe you're thinking, how would this be different from Sojourner's attempt to start a board. She wanted that to be as BTS was before passwording -- it sunk for lack of participation, as far as I can tell. There wouldn't be any difference -- unless we all wanted it and worked at participating in it.

Why am I even thinking about this? Because, frankly, it's a PAIN to have to deal with the requests for the password. The proposed "new members" isn't a pain, but it's time consuming trying to track down their posts, get opinions from members here, etc.

So, what about our cozy and safe world here? Well, I propose it still exist, to still be our haven, to -- YES -- be our own little clique-ish circle of friends. A place to hide, and carp and rant if we want about other forums, or share things too personal for general boards. I even propose changing the password again and eliminating a lot of possible lurkers who were given the password but have never posted. I'm not talking about the people who have low participation but still DO participate. I mean people who either never participated, and/or haven't been heard from in months and months.

Like EM, I've often wondered WHY people want to join BTS, what they think they "know" about it, etc. Address her questions as well as mine, please. I guess I see us as the Hodgepodge group, with a distaste for nastiness. Many here have said they enjoy a spirited debate, but unfortunately, those usually devolve into name calling and baseless accusations, i.e. nastiness.

I'll be interested to see what you have to say!

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

Answers

you mean like a "secret club"??

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

To boldly go where no forum has gone before!

Sorry, couldn't help myself. I'll ponder over this and hopefully have a serious answer in the morning.

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


I don't know about the people who WANT to join us; in other words, the ones who ask to join without a member vouching for them first. The three that I've requested to let in - Cass, Phyllis and Alison - I approached the board before I approached them; and I felt like they would be a good fit because of other posts or personal knowledge of their lifestyles and values. Ditto the ones that I have voted "Aye" on.

I'm assuming that you mean on Lusenet? I don't know that I would feel very comfortable posting on an open board anymore; especially with Joel back in the picture. I very rarely post at CS, even. I post a bit over at gardenweb, which is an open board; but their moderator is even stricter than Ken. And I've got a couple of posts over at Jay's new board (we're gonna have to come up with initials for it!), but I trust him not to let things get out of hand. I'd probably have to use a fake e-mail on a new, open board. I'll do my best to support it, if that's what you want, though.

Hodgepodge with a distaste for nastiness? Okay. Touchy-feely? Okay. Mannerly? Moral? Spiritual-tree-hugging-liberal-pinko-commie- conservative-anti religious-greenie-freaks?

People are kind of like art, I guess. I know what I like when I see it.

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


I like what Polly said about people being like art, you know what you like when you see it!!! And what you don't like when you see it.

I just spent a rather "interesting" hour reading ( yeah, I don't read so fast when I have a hard time understanding what I'm trying to decipher exactly) recent postings to FSR forum, and the Joel and Becky postings I find unsettling, to say the least. How is it that Becky, who is a R.N. I believe, writes like a inbred second cousin who dropped out of grade school??? This is Joel's "other persona" in my opinion, like the guy needs more of those!!!

Call me the biggest woose in the county, but that whole forum gives me the creeps!

Anyway, back to the real world, and Joy's question, why folks want to join our little family? I think because it is exactly that, a small and private family where we can discuss the things that bother us, upset us, concern us, and mainly that "us" word again, it is kept private to US! No uninvited viewers involved, no spammed, porn laden, private e-mails filling our inboxes because of our views and opinions! The freedom to speak plainly, openly, and politely is much appreciated here, and can be duplicated no other way, on no other forum.

Our "mission statement"? It is the very fact we don't have one, everything is open for polite discussion and debate.

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


Hmm...whatever happened to "if it ain't broke don't fix it?" Originally when invited here I thought there would be more homesteaderish issues than there are but actually enjoy the camaraderie that this small group has since we don't have to be fearful or worried about offending or being harassed. The forum format you suggest sounds exactly like Country Families where everyone plays SO nice its a little bit spooky. Its like "Stepford Homesteaders". Why do we need a mission statement? Are we on a mission? Are we out to change the world one homesteader at a time? I think not. That being said, its your call guys and gals. I'll go with the flow myself. :o)

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


Leaving things as they are sounds good to me. I don't get around much to other boards. So I don't see me participating in an open BTS. This and and 2 unrelated boards I visit are about all I have time for.

I see this forum as a bunch of people who click. I see many different interests, goals, and lifestyles but yet some sort of commonality. I think that maybe it's the homesteading or maybe a love of nature in general which bind us. I believe this group has a genuine interest in learning and knowing about other people and what they think. It's good to know how others feel and think even if you aren't comfortable with integrating those beliefs into your own life. We are able to see the differences and say to ourselves, " That's interesting".

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


Well, I have thought about it and read what others have said. I DO like to post on open forums, knowing that I can retreat to this "safe haven" and just hang out. I really have zero desire to participate on "yet another forum", here or anywhere else. I go in spurts, and can go days and never even read another forum but this. Then some event or post will capture me while I am "cruising" and I am off to the races again. Kind of an addiction or time filler or maybe just my way of "socializing". Sherri knows we are fairly isolated here. Guess I am rambling. did somebody say "If it's not broke, don't fix it"?? Joy, maybe someone else could handle the password mail?? Just a suggestion..............seems like you have a lot just with maintanance of the site.

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

What Denise said in her second paragraph is just the way I feel too.

And Diane, I skip here and there depending on what is going on around here - post sometimes, lurk sometimes. It's a bit isolated here too. :-).

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


Thanks for all the responses so far. More comments from others please. So far, you're sort of surprising me. I thought many were yearning for more members here, more new blood, etc.

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

I DO want new blood, I do, I do!! I just want it here, on BTS; instead of starting a new board. I'm just too chicken to post on an open board on Lusenet. But I feel that we do need some folks who will talk - this coming from the #6 biggest mouth (keyboard?) on the forum!! Please, I don't want to see us wither away! 'Course, I don't want to see the old folks leave home 'cause they're not comfortable with the new ones, either. "What a fine mess you've gotten us into this time, Ollie!"

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


I've been kinda sitting back and "listening" to you folks talk about new members and who (whom?) to admit here. I don't recognize the names that were mentioned because I just don't get to the other forums very often...if at all! Guess you could say that I don't get out much :-)!! So I don't feel qualified to give a yea or nay answer, but I do believe that there should be some sort of application or referral system set up. As Diane said in another thread, I don't do change well either, but I know there must be lots of great people out there who would be wonderful additions to this group! I think the fact that many people who have the password have never posted or maybe just posted once or twice way back in the beginning means that they don't really care about being here. So maybe, Joy, changing the password now might be a good idea!?? The people that aren't interested in our discussions have sort of inadvertently weeded themselves out...just by not being here. I don't know...just a thought. BTW...I don't think an "open" forum would be a good idea either. Just my 2¢...for what it's worth :-)!

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002

As far as a "mission statement" is concerned I don't know how to put it into words. I like what we are but it would help stimulate some activity here to get some new blood in but we still need to be somewhat selective.

The main characteristic I look for is someone who conducts themselves respectfully. Even amongst us tempers have flared a couple of times but we've generally kept it together due to our mutually respectful ways. Thats one of the things I like most about this group. And the safe haven aspect of it.

-- Anonymous, February 12, 2002


Hmmm. I don't mind having new members. What I would like to see is maybe some more input from folks who *are* members but who don't post. I'm always interested in what folks have to say (unfortunately, I don't have as much time to read everything daily, though).

As far as a mission statement, I'm not sure. We do seem to have some real connection here, but I would be hard pressed to get my arms around it. It has to do with independence, respect for other's opinions and values, etc. Beyond that, it's a bit beyond the sidewalks, I guess! Can we revisited the original "invitation" that we got? I seem to remember that it was somehow derived from an old "pagan" thread at CS...

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002


Maybe this should be a whole new thread........I don't know. Not interested in causing more turmoil but there are people who have the password who NEVER post here. Some of them have made some pretty nasty posts, IMO, on other forums and I have really felt uncomfortable that they are lurking here. If we are going to reorganize and rethink who and what we are here, I would prefer to do it in privacy with only people who currently post, like the last few months. That, if I were running the show, would be my very first priority.

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002

If we were to do that diane, and I think its not a bad idea, maybe it would be best if we selected several new members, THEN changed the password. That way the non-participants would be eliminated and there'd be less work for Joy.

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002


Hmm, I know I'm the one that mentioned changing the password -- but I'm not sure I can. I know you SUPPOSEDLY can, but when Jim tried, way back when, it locked everyone out, including Jim. He had to go back to the original password (he could still do that from the administration site). So, it might or might NOT be an option.

I have ANOTHER possible change to bring up, or at least the option of one. So, not going to do anything about changing the password immediately. See my new thread, which I am going to create now -- about "ownership" of this forum. Don't worry, it isn't bad! :-D

BTW, back to my original post -- I really don't want to open a whole new board, so I'm glad no one wants that either. :-)

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002


I'm with Alison on this one and we all know how much it pains me to say that! But we just seem to do what we do and we seem to be doing, whatever it is, rather well. I haven't seen a lot of problems since I've been on here. And I don't know what we're about. We have people on here who discuss personal problems, others building, cooking, canning, family, ducks, chucks and bucks and we all seem tolerate whatever anyone wants to talk about. A mission statement? It's just a place to come to, to talk about whatever you want to talk about without fear of ending up with a virus.

Joy, please, I certainly wouldn't try to tell you how to do your job or what to do but I wouldn't add to my workload unless it was necessary. Unless that's your passion. If it is, I'll be happy to offer suggestions to make your job harder..

I don't have a problem with the lurkers. As long as they're not causing problems on this board or posting our thoughts on other boards, what harm are they causing? This may be a place they come to see how civilized people act!

Wildman, (thinking out loud)

-- Anonymous, February 13, 2002


Thought I would add my 2 cents.EM invited me to this forum and I am really gratefull.I know my reasons for wanting to be in here may be different from anyone else.On countryside,it got so big,I think it just got impersonal.I would make a joke and get reemed out by someone who did'nt know who I was or anything about me.The written word can be hard to negotiate sometimes I know,but at least here people listen and debate good naturedly(is that a word?)Not wanting to get sappy but you guys are great,I feel like I'm in a neighbours kitchen here ,and at cs I'm in the mall. I do want to post more ,but I am still a little gun shy.And I apologize,In reading an earlier post,I picked up that e-mailing someone personally realy isn't kosher .I'm sorry,I have done that lately.As far as posting more,Some times I don't feel like what have to say is very interesting.As far as the forum being opened up,I don't feel that I know enough yet to say .this is how it should be,open it..close it because I am still pretty new. If I had to put in words,I like this place because ,although I have a very strong faith and belief system, I do not care for prosyletizing and close mindedness.It doesn't grow me much.I grow better here.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

teri, I didn't know e-mailing someone really wasn't kosher?? I do it too, especially if I think they need cheering up or encouraging. I think nasty, or judgmental e-mail would be one thing, but I always like to hear from my friends.

Hope my comment about if I was "running the show" wasn't what brought on the "ownership" thread joy. Didn't mean it like that at all. Yes, I believe someone is discussing my "thoughts" on another forum, not that it should make all that much difference to me I guess. I just find it rather odd when someone thanks me for defending them on a CLOSED forum, especially when that someone, IMHO would find it objectionable to lie, even if I almost alway disagree with them.

While risking the possibility of being considered "whining", I will tell you I have been rather interested to notice that it was my nomination that made everyone "feel" wrong, yet on the other hand there have been all these comments about if a "member" nominated them that they would be "trusted" to chose well. Perhaps I have been hanging around in the "wrong" places and caught a cause of super sensitivity or gotten rather "spooky".......but all in all I am feeling rather yucky here tonight. In fact, if my self worth on this forum was gauged by the last couple of days, I would probably stomp off and just forget the whole thing. I have been told by the "professional" that that would be very childish and controling so I have no intention of doing that, been down that road before and it wasn't even fun..... :>) (please folks, this is not a ploy to get some vote of confidence so please don't even go there)

Joy, I admire you work here and feel you usually have a strong sense of fairness when you moderate, or "own" or whatever you want to call what you do here. I most certainly would not have suggested changing the password if I had not read you remark about changing it. We have talked and talked about how many people have the password and never post, and I only suggested it as something to do in conjunction with whatever we decided was our "mission" or lack there of.

All that being said, this is still my favorite place to be, so obviously I am not feeling too comfortable in my own skin again as far as this forum stuff goes. Since we have gone password, I have watched everyone that I thought would add a little spark to our group here be "black balled", and only once raised objections about someone being admitted and the nominating person raised all sorts of angry stuff and stomped off for awhile cause their choice was questioned. That person has never posted here and I don't think it was anything to do with them being "rejected" by anyone.

So where am I going with all this.........don't know. Right at this moment I am just venting with people I still consider my friends. Will I take part in membership selection again?, probably not. I have learned on this board to avoid subjects which cause me pain, and try to the best of my ability to not open my mouth in such a way as to cause someone else pain.

Like Polly said, we are like a family, and in my own biological family there have been some times when people I really liked a lot were kind of looked down on by others in my family, and some of my children have even brought people in to the family that would not have been my choice. Families are never perfect. They can bring great joy and great sadness, but I sure wouldn't want to be without them.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Diane: So you don't want affermation? Tough! You're getting it anyway!! We love you and we need you and we want you to stay. You help me mind my manners (you and Sheepish) when I get disgusted at people who use their religion to batter others - you serve as my good example and prove to me that you can follow a certain path and still treat others as you want to be treated. I NEED that good example!

Re: nominating Karen. When Jay nominated Susan; I had been thinking about doing so myself, as I had been reading her on the CS and ACS forums for a while. Then, right after I seconded her nomination, I got into an e-mail conversation with her on another subject; and felt even more that she was "one of us". When you suggested Karen, I had never heard of her and so wanted to check her out. I still have some reservations because I haven't been able to track down any of her old posts; and I guess maybe a little bit because she asked to join us, rather than the other way around. The post that Sherri tracked down and the e-mail excerpt you posted made me a bit more unsure. Guess I could go to her new forum and poke around a bit there.

You know what, Diane? I think you and I need to stay the hell away from places like FSR. They seem to put us into adreneline overload and then we bring it home with us here and are looking for slings and arrows where we shouldn't be finding them (thus my remark about "oh goody, more Ken bashing). Wanta make a pact? We could go do the gardenweb instead..

I do e-mail privately to some folks from this forum - I don't remember any mean e-mail; unless it was a reply in kind to one I'd gotten. Usually, it's to encourage or agree or explain something I'd said; or in a few cases to vent to someone. I didn't know it was verboten either. I'd probably still do it anyway!

And now, I'm going to go have coffee and cheesecake for breakfast - WARNING!! Caffiene, Carb and Sugar overload on the way!!

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Sounds good Polly........where is gardenweb?? hugs........I really am hoping that Shannon and I might make the Ozark trip.......would that not be great to get to meet in person?? Have not even mentioned it to husband....but when I saw you might be there and Shannon might go I put my little thing on there about sharing gas expense and Shannon e-mailed me with a "let's take a look at it".

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

www.gardenweb.com

A kazillion forums, all in one place. And if that's not enough; you can link to another forum called "That Home Site" and find another kazillion or so. Gardening, soil, every plant you can imagine, cooking, crafts....

A good friend of mine just quit work and is planning to stay home and maybe have a market garden - I showed her the site yesterday and boy is she mad at me!!! She was online for over 4 hours...

Baker Creek Seeds: Yeah, talked to Hubs this am and he said he'll go with me. We're going to head down from here on Saturday afternoon, check into a motel for that night, then go home Sunday evening. Don't know how we're going to recognize each other! If the weather is decent, I'll probably be in a jumper rather than pants, so a T- Shirt isn't going to work for me - guess I could put one on Hubs! I do know I'll be carrying my HUGE Missouri Botanical Garden tote - it's the biggest one I've got! I have to work that Friday night before so I won't be home, but if you guys need a place to stop on the way home, we're about 30 minutes away from the 57/70 junction at Effingham; and you're always more than welcome. I've got a guest room, plus a couch that folds out and I can even make Sis clean her room if we need a bit more space!

And if anyone else wants to know what we're talking about - it's a thread over at Countryside titled: Possible site for spring get- together for Ozark area forum members. Okay, so I'm link impaired!!

I did send an e-mail to Countryside mag - hope some of them make the journey down; seems like it would be a good market for them.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Maybe you will have to just look for me?? I will be the chubby one in a dress with a head covering. Photo on our photo site....did you post one?? I knew Sherri when I saw her because of our photos on our site.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

Diane, you don't look chubby in your picture. If I could be there I'd be the chubby one in the dress without the headcovering :-). I wish the event were a little later because my husband and I were planning a trip to Missouri later in the summer to look over the West Plains area and see what land is available. I love Missouri - it's beautiful there.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

Thanks Terri, but that photo is two years old. ;>)

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

Okay, I may get ripped up for this but I want to see if anyone else thinks this might be a good idea. Maybe we shouldn't bring conversations from other forums to this forum, or at least not negative ones or negative remarks about other people from other forums. The way I look at it is that we might be wrong about them (especially since we have already noticed how different ones of us interpret postings differently at times)and they have no way to defend themselves since we can read whatever they post but we are private here and they don't know what we are saying about them. I don't know - just seems too much like gossip. If we don't like what is being said there we can always get in on the postings at the forum where they are happening. I know I would never tell someone on another forum what was discussed here (unless I had permission from the one posting, first). Anyone else agree?

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

Okaaaay...

Terry, if you pick at scabs; they take longer to heal and they can sometimes get infected and leave scars. Not a pretty site.

Dear Friends;

There is a post on the CS forum about a gathering of Ozark area Countrysiders at Baker Creek Seeds; a heirloom seed supplier; located near Mansfield, MO. It's maybe a five hour drive from me. It will be held on April 14th and 15th, 2002. Their website is www.rareseeds.com for more information. There will be speakers there from Small Farm Today, a writer from TMEN, an heirloom market gardener and seed saver, and others as well. There will be vendors of seeds, tools, books and supplies; displays, seed swaps, etc... Sounds like a fantastic time to me! I hope to see some of the rest of you there.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Terry, I think that sounds really nice in theory, but in a family if you can not talk about what is hurting you out in the world how can you reality check?? Yes, we can all perceive things differently. I can be really ouchy over something that someone has said at church say, and my husband can show me another way to look at it.

I think the most important thing that we can do for each other is to acknowledge feelings without condemnation. The trick is to talk about how we "feel" about something without expecting everyone to agree, and then get our feelings all hurt about their non-agreement. I am still trying to learn that skill. :>) I do tend to feel bad if someone here is hurt by something someone on the other forums has said, no matter if I agree with their perception of what has happened or not.

Personally, I think we are just growing any time we can weather a storm. Like I never would have thunk it that jay could have that sensitivity that he had........even though I didn't quite see why he felt like his nomination was being questioned. (please jay, not saying you are "insensitive" at all......just didn't see that one coming is all)

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Nope, Terry, dont see it that way atall. This is a private forum, for many reasons already discussed at length, and as such I would never in a million years share anything said here on any other forum without the poster's permission. It would be like sharing intimate family conversations with the every Thom, Dik and Hairy down at the bowling alley. The forums that are open, are that way by choice, available for all to see, read, and participate in. The subjects brought up on other forums often stimulate good conversations here, just as do newspaper articles, radio programs, movies, and things that happen in our everyday lives. Not to mention that like Polly and Diane have alluded to, when one of "us" in THIS FAMILY is being harmed by the conversations on another forum, we come to the rescue of each other. Some of us do that within the forum, some do it with private emails, but the support is usually there pronto.

We come here because we feel safe here........I for one would leave in five minutes if there is a bigot in the room, cuz I have zero tolerance for intolerance. They can go heal themselves on their own time, not at our expense.

I'll use the example of the gay-bashing thread on CF.(imagine that). I've got a pretty thick skin after all these years; I am not personally affected as far as my own self-esteem goes when my people are bashed.....been there.....done that.......for many many many many years............BUT what jumps to my mind immediately is remembering the indescribable pain I personally went through as an adolescent and young adult, and all those kids out there right now who are going through the same thing because of mentalities like that thread displayed. This is serious stuff to me.......and having been on both sides it, with my fundamentalist background, I know of what I speak. This is a place I can come to vent when I hurt, even hurt for others, and I will get support, cuz the people here know from my open and honest posts alot about me, the real me, and they make me feel way better for having visited.

If someone on another forum started talking seriously about how, ala Randy Newman (ok, so he wasnt serious!), he thinks short people have 'no reason to live', you can be damn sure we'd be talkin about it here, and jumping to um....Polly's defense in a heartbeat! :) Or that people from Alabama who like martinis are dodos, we'd be havin fits protecting our Jay! Or people who like to wear silver jewelry are ostentious boors, our mama-papa bear would come out lookin out for sheepish! Or when people pick on Diane, poor Diane gets it from all sides cuz she's about as weird and as good a target as I am......what with her background of booze, Buddhism, divorce, single motherhood, Mennonite-ness (!), and Christian conversion (do you know how interesting you are dear?)......we will circle our wagons around her.....and I could go on about everyone on this forum who has exposed themselves to us in a real way. We are family, sappy as that may sound, and that means something!

Teri, I don't know where you heard about not emailing each other, but I certainly won't abide by it. Why heck, you and I have emailed each other lots of times, for at least a year; certainly aint gonna stop now. I talk to several people on this forum privately from time to time, and will continue to do so. And please dont be afraid to say whatever; anyone who attacks you in any way will be gently disciplined I'm sure.

Peace,

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Ummmh...Polly, what?

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

You were referring to EM's post about gay-bashing over on CF; were you not? You made some wounds, with your answer; and not just on EM. Those wounds were starting to heal. I couldn't post a tactful response, so I posted none at all; up to now.

Maybe you were also alluding to Sherri's clip from Karen's post. I had requested info about other posts; next time I'll be sure to ask for forums and threads, rather than cut/paste clips.

And maybe you were meaning what I said about Ken bashing. I've already apologized for that.

Anything else?

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


is this where the scared little kid throws up, or does that come later. :>(

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002

Yep, there is one more thing, Polly. I have never, EVER been mean to anyone on any forum, anywhere. Check for yourself because I have always used my real e-mail address and it can all be traced. I have never sent a mean e-mail in my life, either. I must be pretty nice because I've never, ever even been "flamed" by anyone (I believe that is what it is called). Why I said what I said was so that IN THE FUTURE there might not be anyone hurt.

You know, it's either that I am too sensitive or some of you all are. Either way, I must just not fit here in this "family". You see, I am sorry that Earthmama was hurt - I never want to see people hurt, but I also thought all of us here in this "family" were suppose to be able to make our thoughts known. I didn't agree with Earthmama's take on what was happening on that other forum, simple (I thought) but evidently that really isn't excepted here. Oh yeath, let's be open minded and learn from everyone. That's what I thought but now I think that's phooey here! It seems to be only if we way what everyone else wants to here and believe.

Sorry, have never even been this cranky anywhere on line (well - once I maybe). I will be leaving now. I am going to think about what Diane said her Mennonite friends did (just leaving the whole forum scene completely) and consider doing that too.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Okay, I think I'm channeling Ardie here -- OY VEY! As far as emailing, anyone from here can email me about anything. I don't even care if I get emails because of postings on other forums, as long as they're polite. BTW, this email account is not working well at the moment, so if anyone DID email me, I hope I can get into it soon!

Teri, I remember a discussion about emailing protocol, but I don't even remember if it was here or at CS. If you have a thread title, let me know.

Diane, my thread about Jim 'giving' the forum to me was prompted solely because Jim left and though I 'took ownership', I only did it to make things easier for Jim, and I planned all along to consult all of you. I didn't want to get involved in that immediately, though, because I had an out-of-town business trip to prepare for and accomplish. Now that's over, so back to business here!

You can completely 'ditto' me on Polly's paragraph about Karen's nomination. It's just too early for me to give an opinion.

Since becoming a moderator, I've found the process of adding new people to be a pain. Because I feel I have to make sure that everyone is okay with the new person (including me), but I also hate to exclude anyone and hurt their feelings. So, I'm interested in having an easy way to decide on new members. I'm not sure we will come up with one, but that is a large part what all this discussion is about. This is also another place where my frustration with "non- posters" comes in. I don't know if they even have READ the thread, much less what their opinion is. Of course, people who haven't posted since August (for example) aren't entitled to much of an opinion, IMO. {sigh}

I hope none of this steps on anyone's feelings. :-/

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


You didn't agree with Em's opinion of the posts - which as it happens, is the same as mine; and I don't agree with yours. You don't believe that I have the same right that you claim - that is, to disagree?

You were defending a group of homophobes - no matter the basis for your defense. If you don't think it's hurtful to a gay person for someone to defend a group of homophobes; then you are correct - you apparently aren't very sensitive.

I consider forum members to be like family. In my home, I've asked family members to can it when they would start in with racist and homophobic remarks, or spanked their children in my presence. When it didn't stop, I asked them again to stop; or to leave. No one left. And they still all show up for family dinners.

Now, this forum isn't my house; it's more like a community hall where all can gather; so I wouldn't ask - or expect - anyone to leave simply because I didn't agree with them. Neither should you expect me keep silent. I didn't say "Well, I believe that homosexuality is okay because MY religion says it is." I say "You hurt EM and I don't like it." She came here because she was hurt and needed to share her pain - you dragged the source of the pain here. There's a difference.

You said in your post "I may get ripped up for this" - were you looking for a fight; or validation as you said? I wonder.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Geesh! Polly and Terry both posted while I was typing.

By all means, work this thing out, folks, but please keep it polite. I don't want to come back here later and find this has degenerated into a free-for-all brawl! >:-{

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Wow, I just waded through all of these hurt feelings and I feel all this pain and unsettling feelings of true empathy for all concerned.

Please will all try to find just one good or positive thing about the one who you are feeling hurt or pain towards, one good thing....

Yes, hurtful things have been said, better to get such things out in the open and discussed, but then deal with it, handle it appropraitely, yell and scream if it helps get it out, but then move on and get past it.

And then let it go, forgiveness takes nothing from you, but returns a hundred fold to you.

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Okay, let me try again. By the way, thanks bunches to Polly for your mama-bear support; I will never forget it.

Terry, we know you are not a bad person. That you don't go around being mean and trying to hurt people. And really, like I mentioned before, the issue to me wasn't my own feelings so much, but all those kids out there suffering because of ignorance. I spent two years in a suicidal depression after admitting to myself how I felt,all because of the stuff I had been taught all my life........and I would have been lost for sure if I had not found the Metropolitan Community Church in Seattle, a primarily Christian gay church (imagine my shock!) which for the first time showed me that one could be Christian and be gay. It was a lifesaver, and I am not exaggerating.

Now the reason I call it ignorance, which I know probably sounds inflammatory to you, is because I used to be in your place. Truly I don't know you very well, but I am assuming by your comments that your support of "that thread" and the sentiments expressed are because you believe that the Bible condemns homosexuality. I was raised in the church, and so I am in the unique position of being able to understand where you are coming from, cuz I FELT THE SAME WAY.

I can remember when I was about 13, one of my favorite singers was Johnny Mathis. (get this.......so was Anita Bryant!) A couple years later, I found out he was "one of those", and I was shocked and mortified, but mostly I was very confused. I simply would not believe it!! And I remember exactly why I could not believe it. Because I could not for the life of me understand how someone who sang love songs with such beauty and passion could be gay! How could he sing that way if HE HAD NEVER REALLY BEEN IN LOVE??

That's what my culture had taught me, indirectly only, since I do not believe the actual subject had ever come up, anywhere in my life. I did not look at gay people as really human; they were 'other', they were deficient in some way, they were the victims of some kind of condition which should garner pity or disgust. They surely were not capable of having the same emotional connections to their love interests as 'regular people.' And so it goes......its a subconscious thing, at least it was then; now its out in the open, socially acceptable in adolescent culture to degrade, tease, beat up, insult gay people. In fact, its almost required to do so in public schools, from what I hear of the schoolers we know, in order to appear to not be one. It is insidious in the culture,and its basis is religion, and the ignorance that misinterpretations of the Bible engender. If you are truly interested in understanding this issue further,and your mind and heart are open, I can direct you to resources that explain all the biblical references so used against us, and how there are more sides to this issue than most churches teach. Those explanations were critical to my finding peace with both myself and my faith those many years ago, for to continue to attempt to separate myself from either one was not possible.

When you say "I didn't agree with Earthmama's take on what was happening on that other forum", I want you to understand where I'm coming from. You see, the sentiments and opinions that were displayed on that thread were based on ignorance. In other words, THEY DIDNT KNOW WHAT THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT. Now surely we can all have opinions all we want, but I think we should have an inkling of the subject first, and if our 'opinions' are full of insults of other human beings, then they are no longer opinions, they are bashing. And, Terry, it WAS full of insults. Although no one who is not the target audience can truly know how insulting and ignorant those posts were, they were pretty obvious, and straight people who are homophobic are no more qualified to criticize gay people than are ....anti-homeschooling public school teachers to condemn homeschoolers......white people to tell blacks how they should feel about ANYTHING remotely related to race.....physicians to give advice about the "dangers" about natural healing.......an entrepeneur to put down those who work civil service all their life.......a guitarist to tell a saxophone player how he should feel his music...... or a Baptist to tell a Jew, or a Muslim, or even a Lutheran, how she should confess her 'sins'. In short, we aint qualified, and although we all forget this all the time, I think its important to keep it in the front of our brain.

I absolutely DO NOT want you to leave the forum, Terry. I just want you to understand the issues involved, and I am doing my best, as are some others, to help you do that. You of course can choose to continue to understand, because I have lots more info, or not. But I hope you choose to stay, and offer us your wisdom on things you are expert on, and we can continue to love each other, JUST AS WE ARE. Cus just as we are is , IMO, good enough.

Love and peace,

-- Anonymous, February 14, 2002


Wow, EM, that was enlightening. Being neither gay nor Christian, I haven't exactly pursued the subject whether a gay person can be a Christian or not, but I surely would like the information to have on hand for some of my relatives! Can you give me some links or references?

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002

Life is a school, love is the lesson. (bumper sticker I saw earlier this week)

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002

That does sound very interesting, EM. I'd like to learn more also.

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002

And Terry, I don't want you to leave either.

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002

An excellent scholarly book on the subject is "Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality" by John Boswell; a wonderful book written by the long-time minister of the Harvard's Memorial Church, which discusses for the modern spiritual seeker, Biblical issues that have been misinterpreted for purposes of the defense of bigotry. It's called "The Good Book, Reading the Bible with Mind and Heart" by Peter Gomes.

Try this for a website, run by gay Christians: CHRISTIANITY AND HOMOSEXUALITY

-- Anonymous, February 15, 2002


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