Is there something special about German design? Specifically, how is this expressed in Leica cameras? It seems to me there is an emphasis on quality, rugged reliability, and practical features rather than gimmickry, and durability. This is what appeals. And what about German business philosophy? Recent M7 posts have questioned the future of Leica as a company - outmoded, technologically behind-the times being the most common criticisms - but is this right? IMO, I think there will always be a future for a company that producs top-quality products for a niche market, instead of trying to be all things to all people.

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), February 09, 2002

Answers

Interestingly enough, I just read an article about how the quality at Mercedes Benz has dropped, in part due to the company trying to go after every market segment, including what is termed, the "near- luxury" market. Imagine Leica doing that, I hope not. I don't consider Leica a "luxury" camera, it is just one of the finest tools made for the job it was designed to do. Nikon did it with their plastic lenses for the amateur market.

The niche market doesn't generate the volume required to have pots of dough, while the low-end quality market is just that, low-end, but that's where the money can be made. It is hard to have high quality at a high volume. I don't think there are enough skilled people in the world for that in most disciplines/trades.

"German Engineered" is still the world standard for highest quality, and will be for a long time. Thank goodness there is a company that strives for the highest quality and not the almighty Euro.

-- Vikram (VSingh493@aol.com), February 09, 2002.

A-ha. A question that I keep toying with in my mind over and over. Well, I have yet to find perfect designs from any particular country. That said, let me see... (this is gonna be a long mail).

Most engineering decisions are best-fit type compromises; the Germans seem to make less compromises in their designs. In other words, I seem to get the impression that when, say BMW designs a car, it places a greater emphasis on performance than on cost. That is a good decision from an engineering point of view, but not always from a business point of view. Compare BMW and Toyota revenues.

I don't necessarily agree with the statement that German engineering is of the highest quality. I have had my share of experiences with shoddy German quality control and reliability; look up the Rollei threads in photo.net. The Germans do produce innovative designs. Some of these designs should make other company CEOs slap themselves on the forehead with a "why couldn't *we* have thought of that?". The Germans also seem not to regard R&D as a bad word. Yes, we consumers have to bear the cost of that R&D, but at least we get to see new and inventive products.

The Germans pride themselves on being engineering perfectionists. That they may well be, but they have not understood the extraordinarily important concept of "time to market". You may plan bring out the best product that this planet has ever seen, but if you are 20 years too late, your company may not survive to see it.

Before WW2, Germany was the undisputed engineering king. Today its position is arguable, but as if to offset the drop in German Engineering Quality, the quality of American and Japanese engineering has also dropped. In other words, German engineered is still the lesser of the proverbial evils; but not by much.

One place where German designs rule is aesthetics. This is subjective, but I think that simply no car *looks* as good as a BMW M5. Simply no 35mm SLR camera *looks* better than a Leica R6.2 (and R4/5). Simply no MF lenses *look* better than the Rollei.

And, here are some examples.

From the automotive world: BMW, Porsche. Superlative performance, issues with quality and reliability. Look at Honda, Toyota... many inexpensive designs, but nothing to write home about. Some spectacular designs (Toyota Land Cruiser), but then the cost is right up there with the Germans.

From the camera world: Rollei, Leica, Contax. Rollei has many manufacturing issues it needs to resolve, but nobody has a design that is better than their 6008 integral. This design should have rung many many alarm bells in the offices of the CEOs of Mamiya and Hasselblad. Leica: nobody has lenses whose MTF graphs even begin to look like Leica's, but look at the cameras. Good designs, but nothing to lose sleep over. Pathetic business sense. Look at Nikon. Great business sense, OK quality control, but the designs are mediocre. Even the F5, with its formidable specifications, is not an engineering marvel. The Rollei 6008 has a mirror that is 4 times larger in area but it has a motor that pulls film along at 6 inches/sec. The F5 does it at 12 inches/sec. Big deal. The Rollei has linear motors that give it a 1/1000 sec leaf shutter. Who else does? Look at the FM3a. A better viewfinder and better looks would have benefited it enormously. But...

I could go on and on... the bottomline is that the Germans innovate better but don't manufacture as well. The Japanese manufacture better, but their designs are OK. The Americans produce the most functional designs, but neither the manufacturing nor the designs themselves are exceptional. The business models are, though.

It has actually made life harder for us consumers. We can choose good products at exorbitant prices or mediocre products at average prices. There is no way that we can get excellent products at not-so-high prices. Now, only if Leica had not discontinued the R6.2 but brought its price to $1000....

-- Vijay A. Nebhrajani (vijay_nebhrajani@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

When asked to describe the perfect automobile, a Chrysler executive said that: "It would be designed by Chrysler, engineered by Daimler- Benz, manufactured by Toyota, and sold by Saturn."

-- (bmitch@home.com), February 09, 2002.

Both good and bad ethnic stereotypes have one thing in common: lack of truth. I can say from experience that some German products suffer from uninspired design and lackluster execution, and some Japanese products suffer from quirks, idiosyncrasies and poor reliability. Before making any major purchase it helps to do thorough research, which includes distilling fact from fantasy. If you buy anything based on subjective emotional responses (yours or someone else's) you increase your odds of being disappointed.

-- Jay (infinitydt@aol.com), February 09, 2002.

This is subjective, but I think that simply no car *looks* as good as a BMW M5.

And no car looks worse than the new BMW 745 (or 7-something.)

I own two German cars, but I don't think they have higher quality or reliability, or even practical features, than other cars. If those were the things I cared about, I would buy a Toyota Camry. It's a lot better in all those ways than a German car.

The worst car in those respects I have ever owned was Swedish, but I hardly think that means that Hasselblad is bad in those respects, although all the Hasselblad owners I know complain about those things.

Manufacturing and design are global these days. Anyone can manufacture at whatever quality they choose. Design is a bit different, but I don't care what my cameras look like. Ergonomics, on the other hand, is what matters most to me, but it doesn't seem like any country has a lock on good ergonomics.

-- Jeff Spirer (jeff@spirer.com), February 10, 2002.

There was a time when design referred ergonomics, functionality and quality. When the Leica M3 was released design meant engineering design. But now I guess it means appearance.

-- Mani Sitaraman (bindumani@pacific.net.sg), February 10, 2002.

This is a very debatable issue. To me the M Leica is quite easily and without question the most wonderful looking and near perfect camera design ever. It is not a modern design however, remember it was produced by 1950's German designers!

I would certainly argue with the R8 point, to me the EOS 1 (HS) comes close to being the perfect SLR, no other non RF 'feels' so right in the hands.

Car design is so debatable, I own a 1980 Landrover series III and many owners would say that in terms of 'industrial chic' THAT is the most wonderful car design ever. For me in terms of long life and evolution it would probably be the 911.

In modern times however it is impossible to say that any one country has a monopoly on good design. In London we have the Design Museum, with examples of wonderful design from around the world. Here in the UK we are renowned for excellent design and invention - and then a total failure to market and capatalise on that very same skill!

-- Giles Poilu (giles@monpoilu.icom43.net), February 10, 2002.

Ahhh, the ol' topic of Teutonic design!

Well, maybe and maybe not. The German culture are a pround people who regiment their lives much more than us North American slacksters. So its not suprising that in general, German finished products are on average, better than North American. Better than Japanese? Well that remains to be seen.

I drive a Toyota Corolla... by no means a babe magnet and certainly not an engineer's wet dream but this basic car (that doesn't even have power windows, GASP!!!) has not given me any problems since I got it, is frugal on gas, is frugal on maintenance...

Now compare that to the price of a typical maintenance visit at the local BMW dealer (GASP!!!!) and all of a sudden that plain Janeness of my car is all the more endearing.

So why do I use Leicas? Simple, I use Leicas. The German mantra has made its impression on this part of my life.

;-)

-- John (ouroboros_2001@yahoo.com), February 10, 2002.

Virginia [fence], Pacific Grove, California, 2/9/02

When I compare my R8 to my recently acquired Nikon F100 I have to laugh at stubbornness of German design--to make a camera so out-of- step with the trendy: so bulky, so heavy, so loud, an appearance you either love or hate, without modern features & powers most of us take for granted, etc. But then I look at the images I produce with it and I am reminded of Edgar Allan Poe's famous quote that "there is no exquisite beauty...without some strangeness in the proportion." There is a kind of genius here--akin to that divine rapture of Beethoven, the world-encompassing vision of Wagner, the tragic delicacy of Schubert, the passionate suffering of Schumann, the retrograde classicism of Brahms--that infuses German design with greatness. Where Nikon delivers the supremely utilitarian, Leitz delivers a kind of magic.

-- Peter Hughes (ravenart@pacbell.net), February 10, 2002.

German engineering used to be excellent, simply because Germans were gründlich (thorough), precise, and innovative. (We may argue about the latter.) And they always neglected marketing and customer service: if ve make se best produkt, schould not itt sell ittself? To make things worse, the customer wants to buy the product: he wants something; he, ugh, has a demand; so we, ready to satisfy his demands, are in a stronger position... believe it or, thinking did, and does, actually go this way. And so lett us triht se consument kondeszendingly.

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), February 11, 2002.

Well, at least they don't ride donkeys to work.

-- rob (rob@robertappleby.com), February 11, 2002.

Rob, I wouldn't be so sure that they don't...

-- Oliver Schrinner (piraya@hispavista.com), February 11, 2002.

Hi! I havn't been here for weeks. Now is new-year holiday in Taiwan but I am on duty in hospital. The discussion is vivid in this thread. I keep on asking myself the same question. Why use German-made things ? I drive Mercedes; I got a 1958 M2 two months ago and sent it to Solms for a CLA now; I use every kind of German-made things, except computer. I like Apple computer and the already vanished NextStation. Why bother ? Many Japanese things are easy to use, with good functionality, and are cheap. I think it is a matter of style, in addition to other factors. It may not be a matter of absolute right or wrong; better or worse. I think that's why we pay so much money for Leica, BMW, Mercedes .... Because they are very good and represent kinds of styles that we like so much. Best wishes for the happy new year

-- Chih-Chien Lin (chihchienlintw@yahoo.com.tw), February 11, 2002.

Some intriguing thoughts here. Yes we are going global, but Leica design, especially the M, is definitely German. And national stereotypes, good and bad, ARE based on reality... I have lived and worked in Germany and keep in contact with German friends. I hadn't thought of the Germans as especially innovative, but that's perhaps because the Japanese put out so many MORE products. Some seem overly complex; the Japanese are also good at imitating. And American design? Bill Gates? I am not sure. Part of the problem with America is that it believes that America IS the world. Hence America makes some fine products, eg cars, which it simply does not bother exporting. What a shame that Kodak could not have produced a worthy successor to its excellent 1950s Retina line of cameras. The poor old British: fine cars, gone forever. And the Reid and Ensign cameras, long gone. The bottom line I think is quality, no matter what nationality. If a product is well made and does what you want AND you like the look of it, it is worth paying fo

-- David Killick (dalex@inet.net.nz), February 12, 2002.

David, hmmm, I'm not sure this is the right answer to your question "Is there something special about German design?" but I see at least three ways out. First, Bach, Beethoven and Brahms are absolutely my favourites, but what does that have to do with design? Many of us love something regardless of its origin -- often all the more -- as long as it was built (or designed or at least conceived) a long way from home. Favourite bikes are my Kuwahara and Cannondale, Japanese friends said they prefer Peugeot, while some in Canada got a Focus (made in Germany). So what? I myself feel that the whole Leica (M) story is simply "good" because they keep on issuing certain things which haven't changed all that much since they first appeared even 50 or more years ago. Now try to claim that for all those other companies selling all those things they do. E.g. U.S. and Japanese cars, as far as I'm concerned, German cars too.

-- Michael Kastner (kastner@zedat.fu-berlin.de), February 12, 2002.