Halifax, the latest from them

greenspun.com : LUSENET : Repossession : One Thread

I have followed everything on this site so far.

After seeking outside legal advice, we were advised to fill in the i and e forms. Our outgoings and incomings cancel each other out and I sent them proof of this.

Offered them 1000.

They want 14,500 kindly spread out over the next 10 years! ROFLMAO!!!! I don't think so somehow!

I would like your comments on this....what would you do?

1. Go bankrupt 2. Ignore their letters

I have contacted BBC Watchdog and also e-mailed Ken Livingstone and about 30 other MP's.... these building societies cannot be allowed to carry on destroying our lives.

How do you get the NAMV National Association of Mortgage Victims to take on your case?

Any advice gratefully accepted.


-- anon (tequilaslammas@yahoo.co.uk), February 08, 2002


Sorry, can I just ask how much your shortfall was that they were chasing you for?


-- lisa (lisajh29@hotmail.com), February 08, 2002.

I hate to tell you, but your "outside legal advice" has now stuffed you legally.You have admitted liability and acknowledged the debt claimed by the Lender by filling in that form. Shame on whomever told you to fill in their I&E form. The Lender can (and will) now ask for six monthly updates on your financial situation and despite you having no disposable income, they can file for a preferred creditor status and bump other payments down the list - like credit cards, etc and anything unsecured. What you will end up with is an involuntary insolvency arrangement, the step before total bankruptcy. This was done to me, despite the fact that as a single mother I was living on an overdraft and credit cards! I could not go bankrupt for reasons I would rather not expand on at this point, and they knew it. My ex-husband did and left me with the lot to deal with; I eventually threw in the towel and left the country. NAMV may not be able to intervene now that you have accepted the debt, but you could try. They tend to take on cases where the victim has being well and truly messed around and all guidelines have been ignored by the Lender. Unfortunately your outside advice gave you a bum steer as they say. I am so sorry and do hope you find a satisfactory resolution.

-- Too scared to say (iwasduped@yahoo.com), February 08, 2002.

Original shortfall was over 33,000.

I am thinking that bankrupsy is probably my best way out of this situation as I do not want the "scum" that is the Halifax building society to get their hands on one single penny of my hard earned money.

As for the outside legal advice that I recieved.....I was assured that as long as I had nothing to hide there was no reason to not fill in the I and E forms. I have never admitted that there is a debt. Can someone explain why filling in these forms is admitting liability? Has someone actually proved that this is the case? The Halifax have "kindly" given me a few years to pay off for the things that I have on h.p before I begin paying off their amount....so that is nice of them.

I followed all advice on this site but have to say that I was at the point where I had done everything that I could and had completely ran out of letters to write etc.,

I will let you all know how this turns out but I'll be damned before I enter into any arrangement with them.

-- anon (tequilaslammas@yahoo.co.uk), February 09, 2002.

We are in similar situation insofar as we also filled out I&E forms and even went further and made small monthly payments for some time. Unfortunately I am in no position to advise as we are as lost as you are! I find the answer given by 'too scared to say' very worrying. Surely if there is evidence of underselling/mis-selling of MIG/etc,the 'preferred creditor status' would be a bit more difficult for them to obtain. I am assuming this is a court procedure - is there anyone who can expand on this as I can't find any reference to this anywhere on the site. I had read the piece about what if you have admitted liability and this had given me some hope. Now, in the light of the above answer there seems little point in plodding along the route of putting ex-lender on strict proof. There must be an awful lot of people like ourselves who have filled in these I&E forms and made payments when preyed upon by the lenders when we are in a vulnerable state i.e. homeless following the repossession.

-- alyson (faydupp@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

Declaring yourself bankrupt is actually quite expensive - court fees and stuff like that and it doesn't stop Halifax claiming against you and it would be more likely that they would be able to claim their full 33k as you would not be in charge of your own financial affairs any more and not in a position to question it. Although bankruptcy would last about 3 years, in some cases, where there might be a legacy or other large sum of money to come to you in the future, the Trustee in Bankruptcy could still come and take it away.

Filling out an Income and Expenditure form is, to all extents and purposes, admitting that you owe the debt. As Too Scared to Say mentions in her posting, they will continue to harass you for further financial details on a regular basis. If you do not believe that you owe the Halifax 33k, then there is no reason to fill out their I&E forms. You're disputing the amount, and until both sides can agree the shortfall amount (which will take ages) then there is no reason for Halifax to know your financial details is there?

You say that you have followed the advice on the website. Do you have all the supporting documentation from Halifax to prove their claim? Have you gone through it with a fine toothcomb and questionned every amount their claiming from you? If not, then you've still got a long way to go.

As most people who post questions and answers on this board will tell you, getting a "completion statement" from the lender is not enough. If for example, your lender claims 5000 for repairs to the property - ask for copy invoices, question why there was so much to be done. Did they get several quotes for the work etc etc etc.

You will find that the Halifax will claim that how they arrive at their shortfall figure that they say you owe is none of your business - well it damned well is. If they don't answer your questions, just keep asking them. Learn to be like a parrot, because repeating yourself often is something you'll have to get used to!

I would suggest that you avoid coming to an arrangement with Halifax over your current shortfall figure. If you, say, agree to pay 50 per month until its paid off, you can guarantee that after 6 months or a year, they'll be back asking you to increase your payments and it will keep on like that. Surely you must agree that this is not the way to have to live your life. Look at the example letters, and read up on what others have done and work towards getting the shortfall brought down to a reasonable figure which you can pay off in a realistic time period.

If you don't have alot of supporting documentation, then its not too late. Filling out the I&E form isn't the end, although you've not done yourself any favours. Write back to the Halifax, using the sample letters on this website and ask for their proofs.

Good luck.

-- pendle (pendle_666@yahoo.co.uk), February 09, 2002.

WOW if I wasn't suicidal enough before I sure am now.

Doesn't anyone have anything vaguely comforting or positive to say? Even murderers can plead temporary insanity so I'm sure that my faux pas of filling out a stupid form is not the end of the world.

As for the Halifax getting the whole 33,000, exactly how can they get what I haven't got???? A judge or whoever deals with bankrupsy will surely look at my financial situation and laugh heartily at the suggestion that I can afford to pay anyone anything.....my god we barely survive as it is. If bankrupsy is such a bad way out then why do so many people and companies do it?

Please you guys do not be so negative it really is not helpful. I am not the only person who has filled out these forms who reads these messages. I will continue to fight and I will not pay the Halifax their pound of flesh, they have put me through enough suffering for the last 10 years and I will not let them continue to persecute me.

-- anon (tequilaslammas@yahoo.co.uk), February 09, 2002.

I'm sorry if you felt my contribution was negative but I feel exactly as you do. When reading the first response to your posting (from Too Scared to say), I lost whatever small hope I had of being able to deal effectively with our shortfall problem. Our ex- lender/solicitors have hounded us for 11 years and with hindsight we are regretting not having gone bankrupt immediately after initial shortfall demand. Being aware now of all the pitfalls of bankruptcy (and there are many) we are beginning to believe even that would have been the lesser of two evils i.e. bankruptcy and being discharged after 3 years or 11 years of harassment. And if all the prophets of doom are correct then each time we 'admitted liability' we triggered off another 12 years - well I expect we are well and truly 'stuffed'

I would like to believe this is not the case as my own temporary insanity is likely to become a permanent state!! Like you.I would welcome some contribution on a more positive note. Having followed all the advice on the site for the past year and writing endless letters, I am feeling utterly depressed to think it has all been a wasted exercise.

-- alyson (faydupp@hotmail.com), February 09, 2002.

Anon I have posted my case as it goes through the prossess it started much like yours and is now at the stage of preparing to go to the court, 15th May actualy. At every posting there have been around 30% negative feedback 20% encouragement and around 50% bloody good advise. I guess you have to take the rough with the smooth given that no two cases are exacticly the same and what worked for one lender may not work for another. I like yourself regretfuly filled in an I &E form at the begining, Because I didnt realise that you could fight back. But in spite of this the leaches (lender sorry fingers slipped ;)) have reduced from 42,000 to 1500 !!!! but even that is too much for me to stomach. I believe if you have the will to fight they are at best unprepared and at worst so arrogant that they think that they are untouchable. The more people who fight the harder they will think twice. I fully support and encorage anyone who stands their ground against the BS's ( bloody sods or building societys whichever fits best). As with all legal cases nothing is cut and dried you just need to find an angle with which to fight them on, I have found they dont like loosing and any risk is looked at very closley indeed. Hang on in their Anon and whatever happens happens the way I see it is at the moment I could owe them 42,000 anything less is a bonus and any heartache they get along the way is a sweet extra. If anything in my case can help you out drop me a line.

Jon S

-- Jon S (jks_uk2001@yahoo.co.uk), February 10, 2002.

I am equally sorry if you didn't like what I contributed from my experience, but it's what happened [to me] and is a common thread in a lot of posts here. The 12 year thing though - is *not* triggered every time you admit liability. Specialty debt has a 12 year shelf life from the date of it's invocation - i.e. the default and/or sale of the repossessed property, whichever happens first.

-- Too scared to say (iwasduped@yahoo.com), February 10, 2002.

I have just had a report from a Barrister on my case and he states that a new limitation period for recovery of the debt begins at the date of a money judgement order. To my way of thinking that means they can string you along for 10 or 11 years, take you to court, get an MJO and start the 12 years all over again.

-- (jones5@btinternet.com), February 10, 2002.

Well ....to my way if thinking ......this "new" way of extending the number of years in which to recover a debt is ridiculous. There will be a time beyond which it is NO GO. May I suggest that everyone, who is a genuine visitor to this site, contacts their M.P. and requests a correct and definite answer to this question.

If 'jones' or his barrister are not bona fide ..... in other words are just being silly and 'stirring' may I suggest that THEY go away and whistle 'Dixie'.

-- Joy Harker (fightingback@harker.go-plus.net), February 10, 2002.

Maybe I'm veering off on a tangent here but it think it has relevance to anon's original question. Yes, its that old chesnut again - 6/12 year rule!

Given a scenario that repossession took place July 1990. Cardinal sin of filling in I&E form and making small monthly payments committed during that time. Payments suspended and lender asked to justify debt. Documentation (some) supplied and clear evidence of underselling and lenders statutory requirements not fulfilled.

The big question is; In July 2002 do the lenders no longer have the legal right to pursue the alleged shortfall? And if they were contemplating taking legal action they would have to get in there fast i.e. before July 2002.

I think I can guess what opinions will be put forward but right now I'm indulging my optimistic side a bit. It would be nice to think that this whole thing will fall off the radar this year.

Sorry, anon, dont wish to hijack your original question here but maybe any further contributions on this subject will help you.

-- alyson (faydupp@hotmail.com), February 11, 2002.


-- rathernotsay (drl@bsa-exe.net), February 11, 2002.

It will be 12 years from repossession!

-- alyson (faydupp@hotmail.com), February 11, 2002.

"jones" is bona fide....would be very interested to read that opinion, given your situation (which I do recall) and mine, which you may remember.There is a Statute of Limitations on everything..so maybe that opinion is actually helpful. If the MJO triggers the date of a limitation period, does this run concurrently with the specialty debt limitation of 12 years, or is the barrister saying that this is not a specialty debt once a MJO is obtained? Does it therefore become debt simple after an MJO is in place? Has to be either or....ooh yes please.

-- Too scared to say (iwasduped@yahoo.com), February 11, 2002.

Oh,'scuse me, I was whistling !!! * jones * is a she not a he and is not in the habit of stirring as Ms Harker suggested.Also as * jones * has been fighting this for over five years now ( 3 of them with an MJO hanging over our heads ) I think I am well enough informed of the procedures. I have letters from fifty MP's which helped to put the last EDM in place, I also have a rapidly growing shortfall ( which was defended in court and lost in 1999 )a very sick husband due to the stress of this increasingly ridiculous situation and the frustration of knowing that we can do sod-all about any of it. My only way of dealing with it day to day is by trying to help others in the same situation. I am assuming that you have not been taken to court yet( and I hope you don't get that far) because if and when you do you will find that the British legal system is indeed * an ass *. Lastly, in reply to * Too scared *, I think that once the MJO is in place the limitation period is then fixed. I do know that in our case ( I can't speak for others ) the debt still remains a speciality and will run for 12 years.

-- jacky jones (jones5@btinternet.com), February 12, 2002.

I was under the impression that stautute barred was the period from the last point of contact whether court or letter.

-- who knows (locates1st@hotmail.com), February 13, 2002.

Firstly : My apologies Jacky - and my congratulations for what you have achieved so far. My error of judgement no doubt brought about by the pratting about of some individuals who visit this site.

Secondly: To Mr(are you sure?)'who knows' - I hope you'll get a job soon and hopefully feel better. Why not send your CV to a well known firm of lawyers, 'who knows' what might happen. Another good move would be for to get out from under the influence of whatever it is you're under now because it is not doing you any good.

-- Joy Harker (fightingback@harker.go-plus.net), February 13, 2002.

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